Finger Position on Hori (Kirby main)

BardN64

Smash Rookie
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May 9, 2015
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10
Hey guys.

I currently keep my right thumb over left C, and use R for aerials and A for ground attacks. The rationale behind this, as I understand it, is that it allows for differentiation of inputs when transitioning from ground to air (and the proximity of B and left C allows for Falcon Punch combos in particular).

However, I was practicing tech skill with KyleTree and he argues that A should be used for both aerials and ground attacks, and that the bottom C should be used instead of left C. He argues that this allows for quick platform Dairs and Bairs. I found this to be true.

What are your thoughts on this? I want to master new movement techniques, but obviously I want to settle on hand placement first.
 

Shears

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Any aerial input can be done faster with R instead of A because there is no need to transition a finger from one button to another.

I use right C exclusively.
 

Florence

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When using an arial immediately out of a jump, you can slide from down C to A, which makes the instant arial much easier than with R. To the best of my knowledge, arial R and A are equivalent in every other situation.
 

Cedricwa

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When using an arial immediately out of a jump, you can slide from down C to A, which makes the instant arial much easier than with R. To the best of my knowledge, arial R and A are equivalent in every other situation.
Short hop -> R is easier than short hop -> A
 

The Star King

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Any aerial input can be done faster with R instead of A because there is no need to transition a finger from one button to another.

I use right C exclusively.
It's pretty easy to be able to press A before jump squat ends, so not really

you can position your thumb so that you can press C and A at the same time basically if you wanted, what kind of chump only has their thumb over one button at a time anyway
 
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The Star King

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Look at 7th row "Frame delay before jumping".

This means that when you press the jump button, Kirby will squat on the ground for 3 frames before jumping. They don't immediately leave the ground. That's what I was referring to with "jumpsquat".

What I meant is if you wanted to, you could position your thumb over both C and A and press them both close enough that you can press A in the 3 frames before Kirby leaves the ground, so that no aerial comes out (Kirby just jumps).

Shears argued that using R for aerials is better because you supposedly can press R sooner after C, because "there is no need to transition a finger from one button to another." My rebuttal is that you can press it faster than needed with A pretty easily anyway, if you position your thumb over both buttons, so that's not really an advantage of R.
 
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Shears

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Look at 7th row "Frame delay before jumping".

This means that when you press the jump button, Kirby will squat on the ground for 3 frames before jumping. They don't immediately leave the ground. That's what I was referring to with "jumpsquat".

What I meant is if you wanted to, you could position your thumb over both C and A and press them both close enough that you can press A in the 3 frames before Kirby leaves the ground, so that no aerial comes out (Kirby just jumps).

Shears argued that using R for aerials is better because you supposedly can press R sooner after C, because "there is no need to transition a finger from one button to another." My rebuttal is that you can press it faster than needed with A pretty easily anyway, if you position your thumb over both buttons, so that's not really an advantage of R.
Using R you don't have to worry about positioning. You can continue to jump and position your fingers to what is comfortable and get the same result.

Me: Keep everything the way it is, use R instead of A
StarKing: Hold the controller a different way making yourself completely unfamiliar with how to handle it, cramp your hand, and do this tricky slide with your thumb from C to A so you get blisters and carpal tunnel.

Why are you so anti-R again? "Because I'm Star King and I'm a communist spy from Russia and I want to poison capitalistic America by making controller handling and jump to aerial a living hell"
 

The Star King

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Using R you don't have to worry about positioning. You can continue to jump and position your fingers to what is comfortable and get the same result.

Me: Keep everything the way it is, use R instead of A
StarKing: Hold the controller a different way making yourself completely unfamiliar with how to handle it, cramp your hand, and do this tricky slide with your thumb from C to A so you get blisters and carpal tunnel.

Why are you so anti-R again? "Because I'm Star King and I'm a communist spy from Russia and I want to poison capitalistic America by making controller handling and jump to aerial a living hell"
Except I do position my fingers that way normally as do many people so your entire point is moot.

I'm not anti-R either, I'm saying the two are basically equal.
 
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Technical_Knockout

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Apr 7, 2015
Messages
194
if you are using an original n64 controller i would recommend using bottom 'c' & 'a' to aerial: position your thumb so that the right side of it hits 'a' & the left side hits 'c'; no button-sliding required, just efficiently using one thumb to hit two buttons... if you buffer 'up' beforehand as well & hit bottom 'c' & 'a' one frame apart an up-smash will come out instead; as i mentioned elsewhere, this is a very useful out-of-shield option that also works with 'c' + 'r' (incidentally, this peculiarity seems to essentially prove that 'c' = full-tilt 'up'; at least so far as n64 controller mapping goes).

on the original controller i don't use 'r' for aerials much, as i find it too taxing on my index finger & it can cause some issues using the button that is mapped to both 'a' & 'z' to attack in the air (specifically, if you miss your 'z'-cancel you will buffer into shield; i think there's another reason but it's escaping me right now): nevertheless, using 'r' can be useful for both instant short-hop & fast-fall aerials, as it is tricky to quickly tap 'c' & switch to 'a' with the same digit for the first case & it can be argued that 'r' can be pressed quicker than 'a' for the second (shorter spring or something, maybe?).
 
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Tom Bombadil

Smash Journeyman
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Oct 12, 2012
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Oregon
Hey guys.

I currently keep my right thumb over left C, and use R for aerials and A for ground attacks. The rationale behind this, as I understand it, is that it allows for differentiation of inputs when transitioning from ground to air (and the proximity of B and left C allows for Falcon Punch combos in particular).

However, I was practicing tech skill with KyleTree and he argues that A should be used for both aerials and ground attacks, and that the bottom C should be used instead of left C. He argues that this allows for quick platform Dairs and Bairs. I found this to be true.

What are your thoughts on this? I want to master new movement techniques, but obviously I want to settle on hand placement first.
I'm not sure if you are referring to my falcon combos for beginners video (I guess that you are because you reference sliding for a falcon punch after talking about my rationale) but let me be clear that holding the controller is primarily an issue of comfort. Of course, there are ways of holding the controller that are probably less than optimal but as long as you avoid these you should be fine (I think there are simply arguments to be made that left/down C are better than right/up C but even this doesn't really matter).

I'm not sure why you and Kyle think that platform drop aerials are faster with the A button. Is this a comfort issue or is there an actual reason that A is better than R? I don't see any reason for the timing to be easier as you are still transitioning from inputs from the left hand (shield drop) to the right hand (aerial).


on the original controller i don't use 'r' for aerials much, as i find it too taxing on my index finger & it can cause some issues using the button that is mapped to both 'a' & 'z' to attack in the air (specifically, if you miss your 'z'-cancel you will buffer into shield; i think there's another reason but it's escaping me right now): nevertheless, using 'r' can be useful for both instant short-hop & fast-fall aerials, as it is tricky to quickly tap 'c' & switch to 'a' with the same digit for the first case & it can be argued that 'r' can be pressed quicker than 'a' for the second (shorter spring or something, maybe?).
If you miss a Z-cancel and are using A for aerials you can still buffer your shield. It's the Z-trigger that's causing this, not the A button. Likewise, if you miss a Z-cancel while using R for aerials, it will be the Z-trigger causing your shield to come out, not R. The only way you'd be able to tell a difference is if you used R for an aerial and then held it until you hit the ground. In this case your shield would come out after the landing lag was over. But if this is happening to you, you have way bigger problems to worry about than how to hold a controller.

If you find R uncomfortable, don't use it. If you think moving your fingers (including rotating your thumb to "hit two buttons at once") is inefficient, don't use A.

The downside of using R is that you might accidentally grab. The downside of using A is that you have to more your thumb. As long as you understand the downsides of whatever technique you use, your primary deciding factor should be comfort in my opinion.
 

Technical_Knockout

Smash Apprentice
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Apr 7, 2015
Messages
194
hi tom love your instructional vids... if you make any more i've left some potentially useful contributions floating around the 'simple facts you may not know' thread.

i agree that comfort should be the primary factor when deciding on a controller grip... incidentally, it's at least interesting to have an alternate ready to chain taunt-cancels into attacking moves.

gotta go eat dinner now peace out fellow smash enthusiasts!

:)
 

Tom Bombadil

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 12, 2012
Messages
305
Location
Oregon
hi tom love your instructional vids... if you make any more i've left some potentially useful contributions floating around the 'simple facts you may not know' thread.

i agree that comfort should be the primary factor when deciding on a controller grip... incidentally, it's at least interesting to have an alternate ready to chain taunt-cancels into attacking moves.

gotta go eat dinner now peace out fellow smash enthusiasts!

:)
I'm always happy to collaborate, PM me if you come up with anything specific. I'll look through the simple facts thread too. Thanks for the support.
 
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