Final Smashes in tourneys: yay or nay?

[mountain_tiger]

Link to original post: [drupal=2463]Final Smashes in tourneys: yay or nay?[/drupal]



Before you guys shoot me down for this, hear me out. Think about it. Why exactly are Final Smashes banned in tournaments? Well, there are several reasons, along with the fact that items in general have been banned in tournaments for years.

However, what is the main reason for items being banned? The answer is that since items appear randomly, can sometimes be ludicrously overpowered, and add an element of chance into the battle, that means that they were considered unfair (rightly so, IMO) and were thus banned.

But Final Smash balls aren’t just any old item. In a sense, it appears randomly, but unlike the scenario whereby a bomb appears as you’re unleashing a smash attack, all players have a chance of getting the Smash Ball for their own uses. Yes, some characters are much better at getting it than others, but then again, some characters are much better at gimping opponents than others, so that argument is invalid.

Also, if you had all items on, then they’d get a bit overbearing, and as a result would detract from the fighting part of the game. However, if you put the smash balls on low, then they wouldn’t appear too often, and thus wouldn’t detract from the main part of the game too much.

Besides, you hear people moaning a lot that Brawl’s metagame isn’t developed enough. Adding Final Smashes would help add an extra layer of depth to Brawl, and could make fights a lot more interesting. Granted, it wouldn’t be too great for characters like ZSS, but nonetheless, I think they could be worth a try. What do you think?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Some kill at 0% or extremely low %'s. When you have a lead of 100% last stock and you suddenly die at 20% thanks to a stupid Smash Ball. Would you feel happy?

 

[mountain_tiger]

How strange. The second half of the post didn't get published the first time round. Oh well...

And being killed at 20% by a FS would be no more annoying than being spiked at 20% and dying that way....

 

[justaway12]

Sonic and the Spacies (and some more) would be unbearable, there is just too much risk in a match for getting two stocked by that, you could bring it up in the "Item Standard Play" thread in tacticals and talk about it there as well, since they banned it too, that would be a good place to discuss items and all of it's uses

Oh yeah and sometime blog posts get cut off, go to your original post and copypasta if you want it all

 

[Firus]

Uh...nay...?

Smash Balls ARE items, even my friend who thinks there's nothing wrong with items agrees with that. If anything, Smash Balls are WORSE because you could get to the Smash Ball first, hit it 5 times, then your opponent jabs it once and gets it.

And no, Final Smashes would not add extra depth OR help develop the metagame. It would add a new, confusing layer to the metagame therefore destroying anything already discovered. Plus they'd throw balance totally out of whack. If Sonic has Smash Balls...uh, he's going to jump up to high/top tier. You have to be pretty good at dodging to not die twice, and really good to not die at least once. And then Peach would be totally screwed over by having a worse-than-useless Final Smash.

And the second half got posted. You have to click on the link to the actual blog to see it, and you can go to said actual blog post of it to retrieve the rest and put it here.

I thought people knew this by now.

 

[Jimnymebob]

They don't appear every match though, so one person could go through a tournament without seeing one, and someone else could get one every match, and then lose to the person who never got one in the finals. It depends on luck, and it isn't fair.

They distract the flow of the battle; all of a sudden it becomes a frantic dash for a smash ball, and for the chance to probably force your opponent out of a stock, or at leats damaging them seriously.

Smash Balls in tournaments is like throwing a pice of bread to a flock of seagulls. It distracts them from what they are doing, causes all of them to just focus on the bread, and in the end only one person wins.

 

[mountain_tiger]

They don't appear every match though, so one person could go through a tournament without seeing one, and someone else could get one every match, and then lose to the person who never got one in the finals. It depends on luck, and it isn't fair.

They distract the flow of the battle; all of a sudden it becomes a frantic dash for a smash ball, and for the chance to probably force your opponent out of a stock, or at leats damaging them seriously.

Smash Balls in tournaments is like throwing a pice of bread to a flock of seagulls. It distracts them from what they are doing, causes all of them to just focus on the bread, and in the end only one person wins.

A skilled person could use that to their advantage though. Why exactly? Well, if someone's intent on gettign the smash ball, the other person could predict that and punish them accordingly. For example, if the smash ball is above Zelda's head, and someone goes to attack it, she can then lightning kick them.

If they were to be included, they'd have to be put on low to stop them being too overbearing, but I think it's plausible.

 

[Kupo Rose]

Wouldn't that just encourage more time wasting during matches? 2 players will probably be more focused on getting the smashball and not get hit during a match in fear of getting killed from their opponent's Final Smash.

Can I not just run around till the smashball appears?

For example, if the smash ball is above Zelda's head, and someone goes to attack it, she can then lightning kick them.

Why wouldn't the Zelda player Usmash to hit the smashball though, theres also a bonus chance she'll hit her opponent too if the other player is intent on getting the smashball.

 

[Omnicron's Baklava Enterprises]

Final Smashes might end up stalling the match, like R.O.B's, which just renders him invulnerable with quite a dodgable beam.

Players would just be jumping around and dodging constantly to avoid the Final Smashes, no good old damage-dealing and techniques, just waiting for the Smash Ball to appear.

And all of the other valid reasons above me.

 

[thegreatkazoo]

I am going with a resounding no on the subject of allowing Smash Balls.

Reason: Evo2k8.

I'm done.

 

[Teran]

Final Smashes are still random enough in their nature, they are significantly luck based. Add to this the fact that successfully obtaining it gives some characters a basically impossible not to achieve KO, and we have a big problem.

Also, it would make a few top tiers a nightmare. Take Snake for instance. He's good enough as is, now imagine Ally with a grenade launcher with 6 attempts to annihilate his opponent. That's not right. Imagine DEHF or SK92 with a landmaster. Imagine an invincible Fiction.

Now imagine someone was playing at their best and was a stock ahead, only to get destroyed in this fashion, only through the luck of getting the smash ball. If one appears, the fight pretty much ceases and a frantic battle for the smash ball occurs. It gets knocked high and all the way across. Characters with high jumps have an advantage, characters with a projectile get a really unfair advantage (namely Falco, who we really don't want getting his hands on one.)

Basically, there is no need for debate. Smash balls are worse than starmen or smart bombs, or any other item for that matter. Far, far worse.

 

[Jimnymebob]

A skilled person could use that to their advantage though. Why exactly? Well, if someone's intent on gettign the smash ball, the other person could predict that and punish them accordingly. For example, if the smash ball is above Zelda's head, and someone goes to attack it, she can then lightning kick them.

If they were to be included, they'd have to be put on low to stop them being too overbearing, but I think it's plausible.

This is plausible, but it still comes down to luck. I may be wrong, but I don't think Smash Balls are guaranteed every match, so it would be like giving some people this advantage, but only giving some people this chance. Only 2 in 10 matches could have smash balls. This is like having 10 people race the 100m, and having 2 of them win when they reach 95m. It's down to luck, unfair, and only benefits some.

If everyone was guranteed to get it once eacxh match then thats fine, but it doesn't work like that.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Basically, there is no need for debate. Smash balls are worse than starmen or smart bombs, or any other item for that matter. Far, far worse.

Even bob-ombs? I'd say they're worse. And Bumpers...

BTW, Jimnymebob, I'm not 100% sure on this, but whenever I play with FS on low, they seem to appear (approximately) every 1 1/2 to 2 minutes.

 

[Mike B]

If this happens, tournaments will be full of Starfox and Sonic; I'll drop my mains and quit the game. At the very least.

 

[Teran]

Bob ombs have a way of being countered called a shield. Bob ombs can be spot dodged. They can even be jumped over.

If you can get to a ledge, you can ledge stall it.

None of these work against a grenade launcher or a landmaster.

 

[Omnicron's Baklava Enterprises]

Even bob-ombs? I'd say they're worse. And Bumpers...

Bomb-ombs are dodgeable.

Some Final Smashes, such as Luigi's, Olimar's, and (maybe) Samus' aren't so easy to dodge, even with skilled players.

Sure, you can dodge-roll out of Luigi's, but what if it covers all of the stage? Also, what if you're in the air over no platform? You'd fall helpless to your death.

Bumpers, well, they are just a pain.

 

[Frown]

So, yeah. Peach get the smash ball, the opponent jumps and also gets a few peaches to eat.

Falco gets it and has one stock to take away in a number of ways.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

No. I can easily see two even players fighting and then one gets the smash ball three times in a row and three stocks the other.

The only reason I'd want FS on is to see Samus' kamehameha.

 

[bobson]

Bob ombs have a way of being countered called a shield. Bob ombs can be spot dodged. They can even be jumped over.

You can't shield a bob-omb that spawned in the middle of your attack. There's nothing you can do if a starman randomly spawns on your opponent and makes them invincible in the middle of a combo. The fact that these things can happen are the primary ****ing aspects of allowing all items in competitive play; Smash Balls don't do this.

Smash Balls are the least "bad" of items; the opponent very rarely does not have multiple times to intercept the Smash Ball if it happened to spawn next to you. When a Smash Ball comes into play at a high level, it's not merely a matter of the person it spawned next to getting a free advantage; do you hit it and weaken it so your opponent can potentially steal it? Do you not hit it and let it float over to your opponent so they weaken it first? What if they hit it away from you and keep it on their side? Do you have a projectile that can intercept it if they do that? Can you hit them while they're chasing the Smash Ball? Tons of mindgames are put into play almost immediately.

They still won't be allowed, of course, because a Smash Ball can potentially spawn on the opposite side of the stage after your opponent just got launched off it and give you a random and free advantage, and the Smash community simply refuses to play a game where this can happen. But it's not a game-ruiner.

 

[Teran]

Smash Balls are the least "bad" of items; the opponent very rarely does not have multiple times to intercept the Smash Ball if it happened to spawn next to you. When a Smash Ball comes into play at a high level, it's not merely a matter of the person it spawned next to getting a free advantage; do you hit it and weaken it so your opponent can potentially steal it? Do you not hit it and let it float over to your opponent so they weaken it first? What if they hit it away from you and keep it on their side? Do you have a projectile that can intercept it if they do that? Can you hit them while they're chasing the Smash Ball? Tons of mindgames are put into play almost immediately.

They still won't be allowed, of course, because a Smash Ball can potentially spawn on the opposite side of the stage after your opponent just got launched off it and give you a random and free advantage, and the Smash community simply refuses to play a game where this can happen. But it's not a game-ruiner.

Smash balls do spawn randomly, and the erratic directions they go in when struck makes it more of a pot luck. Sure there are elementary mind games, but there are mindgames with all other items that come into your opponent's possession.

Smash balls are erratic and the benefit gained from breaking one are way too much for them to be even remotely fair in standard play, especially considering there is a luck factor in practically every case.

 

[Kinzer]

The only reason I don't object having Smashballs in a competitive environment is of course because Sonic ***** so hard with his final smash that it's unfair, but of course I won't be complaining.

It if it hasn't already been said, unless you're biased/coming from the benefiting party like I am, you have no reason to want Smashballs when something is on the line.

 

[bobson]

Smash balls do spawn randomly, and the erratic directions they go in when struck makes it more of a pot luck. Sure there are elementary mind games, but there are mindgames with all other items that come into your opponent's possession.

Smash balls are erratic and the benefit gained from breaking one are way too much for them to be even remotely fair in standard play, especially considering there is a luck factor in practically every case.

They experience the same knockback angles as everything else. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you don't play with items; I do occasionally, and the vast majority of the time I'll be the one who gets the Smash Ball because the only people who won't freak out over items are typically the worse players. This indicates to me that there is a certain amount of skill required to get the Smash Ball when facing a competent opponent that's not present with all the other items, where the person it spawns next to is the automatic victor.

And it's obvious that competitive play is not as accepting to such potentially large advantages being given out with such inherent randomness as Smash Balls, but Smash Balls do not decimate competition entirely: the better player (and ability to get a Smash Ball as well as consideration of final smash strength per character and experience with avoiding/making optimum use of them are all parts of being the better player) will still win consistently overall, which is the foundation of competition.

 

[Teran]

They experience the same knockback angles as everything else. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you don't play with items; I do occasionally, and the vast majority of the time I'll be the one who gets the Smash Ball because the only people who won't freak out over items are typically the worse players. This indicates to me that there is a certain amount of skill required to get the Smash Ball when facing a competent opponent that's not present with all the other items, where the person it spawns next to is the automatic victor.

And it's obvious that competitive play is not as accepting to such potentially large advantages being given out with such inherent randomness as Smash Balls, but Smash Balls do not decimate competition entirely: the better player (and ability to get a Smash Ball as well as consideration of final smash strength per character and experience with avoiding/making optimum use of them are all parts of being the better player) will still win consistently overall, which is the foundation of competition.

Looks like your limb should be cut off.

Anyway, I never said that whoever it spawned next to would win, but it doesn't experience normal knockback angles at all. You hit it in a certain trajectory and it'll continue floating even after the main spurt has ended. Then it'll start moving in a whole manner of directions.

Personally, smash balls are a godsend for me when I play with items because Falco has some immediate exploitable advantages. First of all, he as a massive first jump, giving me the edge when going for a high smash ball. Second of all, his aerials such as his nair and bair are great for hitting it.

Even better, he has lasers, which are pretty easy to fire accurately. Add that to the fact that Falco's final smash is a flying landmaster, and your opponent is going to have serious problems.

I really don't see smash balls as worthy of consideration in competitive play at all. They're fun, they're awesome, but do add a broken element of luck. Not to mention, some final smashes are supremely powerful compared to others. This would unbalance the game further in a competitive environment where you want characters to at least be on some sort of equal footing. Some final smashes are trash, whereas some are godly. If final smashes were allowed, it would be of severe detriment to characters who otherwise have a good moveset.

I've considered all reverse arguments before, but you just have to understand that it wouldn't work.

 

[Firus]

Oh, something else practical to keep in mind;

With Smash Balls comes Pity Final Smashes. There is no way to pick and choose. And even if you can make a decent argument of SBs not being broken...Pity FSes are exactly the opposite of competitive play, punishing someone for doing too well.

Also, I still say Samus/Zamus got the shaft on FSes. On most stages it's possible to dodge Samus's, and even if you kill someone it's extremely punishable by at least one good Smash Attack. There are a few frames of immobility after the transformation ends. Plus, then Samus/Zamus players have to master both characters. Not getting the Smash Ball isn't an option because then your opponent has an advantage.

As I said, SBs wouldn't flesh out the metagame...they'd create a whole new one.

 

[Chronodiver Lokii]

Oh, something else practical to keep in mind;

With Smash Balls comes Pity Final Smashes. There is no way to pick and choose. And even if you can make a decent argument of SBs not being broken...Pity FSes are exactly the opposite of competitive play, punishing someone for doing too well.

Also, I still say Samus/Zamus got the shaft on FSes. On most stages it's possible to dodge Samus's, and even if you kill someone it's extremely punishable by at least one good Smash Attack. There are a few frames of immobility after the transformation ends. Plus, then Samus/Zamus players have to master both characters. Not getting the Smash Ball isn't an option because then your opponent has an advantage.

As I said, SBs wouldn't flesh out the metagame...they'd create a whole new one.

As a Zamus player, I definatly agree. It's a lose-lose scenerio either way for Samus/Zamus: either get the SB and get punished after using it due to transformations etc or give the enemy a free stock (if they have a good final smash, that is).

It'd just ruin everything we know.
And I think most people are content with the way competitive Brawl is, more or less.

 

[bobson]

Anyway, I never said that whoever it spawned next to would win, but it doesn't experience normal knockback angles at all. You hit it in a certain trajectory and it'll continue floating even after the main spurt has ended. Then it'll start moving in a whole manner of directions.

Those are normal knockback angles. It just doesn't have normal gravity.

I really don't see smash balls as worthy of consideration in competitive play at all. They're fun, they're awesome, but do add a broken element of luck. Not to mention, some final smashes are supremely powerful compared to others. This would unbalance the game further in a competitive environment where you want characters to at least be on some sort of equal footing. Some final smashes are trash, whereas some are godly. If final smashes were allowed, it would be of severe detriment to characters who otherwise have a good moveset.

Yes, that's why we don't use them. I'm not arguing that using Smash Balls is a better idea than the way we have things now. But the game is still plenty playable competitively with that going on; it's just more random than our current setup.

With Smash Balls comes Pity Final Smashes. There is no way to pick and choose. And even if you can make a decent argument of SBs not being broken...Pity FSes are exactly the opposite of competitive play, punishing someone for doing too well.

As I recall, pity final smashes don't show up until the loser is something like four or five stocks behind, which is impossible in a 3 or 4-stock match.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

:flame:
With Age comes Wisdom... I remember when I was a little younger, and wondered why we couldn't have this added to the Meta Game too.

People think Metaknight overcentralizes the Metagame, and that was one of the biggest things going against him being playable in Brawl. When a Smash Ball appears on stage, only the players that are already dead aren't rushing for it, throwing away babies and money, sacrificing everything for that brief momment of complete immortality or that unstopable instant kill. Smash Balls change the game completely, from intense offensive / defensive mind game to "WHO'S GONNA GET THE SMASH BALL FIRST! GET THE BALL BOY! GO GET IT! FETCH THE BALL! GET IT GET IT GET IT! GOTTA GET IT!".

And to be correct, the Pity Smash is only achieved when someone is Koed and is 5 points below the Leader. So, it wouldn't be able to effect the standard Brawl Tournament.

Let it be known that Peach and Dedede are capable of producing Smash Balls, so long as the item is allowed. Yeah, that Waddle Doo is simple enough to sto... OH MY ****ING GOD! HE GOT A SMASH BALL! THERE'S THE WADDLE DOO ARMY! I'M GETTING GANG-***** BY WADDLE DOOS! AND I WAS AHEAD OF HIM! HE WAS SITTING AT 350% AND I WAS SITTING AT 50%! I JUST TOOK 200% DAMAGE AND THE RANDOM TRIPPLE GORO INSTANTLY KILLED ME! ALL MY HARD WORK AND TRAINING FOR THIS MATCH UP AND THIS TOURNAMENT JUST WENT DOWN THE FREAKING DRAIN BECAUSE OF THE RANDOM FINAL SMASH! **** YOU FINAL SMASH!

That being said, if someone wants to hack it and make it so that we can use them as Finisher Moves, once the match has been won (kinda like Mortal Kombat), I'd be all for finishing an enemy with my AURA KAMEHAMEHA! But as of now, it just changes the game too much... I do not want to see another match where Mr Game & Watch simply hung to the ledge and waiting for the Smash Ball to appear before he got back onto the stage, simply so he could Tentacle **** Zero Suit Samus several times. It's just too much.
:flame:

 

[Firus]

As I recall, pity final smashes don't show up until the loser is something like four or five stocks behind, which is impossible in a 3 or 4-stock match.

:flame:
And to be correct, the Pity Smash is only achieved when someone is Koed and is 5 points below the Leader. So, it wouldn't be able to affect the standard Brawl Tournament.

Yeah, I forgot the limit for Pity Final Smashes was that large.

Let it be known that Peach and Dedede are capable of producing Smash Balls, so long as the item is allowed. Yeah, that Waddle Doo is simple enough to sto... OH MY ****ING GOD! HE GOT A SMASH BALL! THERE'S THE WADDLE DOO ARMY! I'M GETTING GANG-***** BY WADDLE DOOS! AND I WAS AHEAD OF HIM! HE WAS SITTING AT 350% AND I WAS SITTING AT 50%! I JUST TOOK 200% DAMAGE AND THE RANDOM TRIPPLE GORO INSTANTLY KILLED ME! ALL MY HARD WORK AND TRAINING FOR THIS MATCH UP AND THIS TOURNAMENT JUST WENT DOWN THE FREAKING DRAIN BECAUSE OF THE RANDOM FINAL SMASH! **** YOU FINAL SMASH!

I would actually consider that to be a much lesser problem than randomly spawning Smash Balls. It's like G&W's Judgment, it IS luck and randomness, but if you're willing to use the attack enough and take the risk of getting a 1 or being punished for using it often, it's still a balance to an extent.

Plus, it's not like spawning a Smash Ball guarantees getting it. On more than one occasion I've had a Smash Ball near me, hit it multiple times, then I have to be away from it for a minute, and in that time my opponent gets it.

tl;dr: I wouldn't consider it any less cheap spawning a Smash Ball than a randomly appearing one, though I agree with your end conclusion.

That being said, if someone wants to hack it and make it so that we can use them as Finisher Moves, once the match has been won (kinda like Mortal Kombat), I'd be all for finishing an enemy with my AURA KAMEHAMEHA!
:flame:

Yeah, but that would only be a possibility for Brawl+ since no form of hacking will ever be tolerated for normal Brawl.

And I don't think that's possible, anyways.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

A-
I would actually consider that to be a much lesser problem than randomly spawning Smash Balls. It's like G&W's Judgment, it IS luck and randomness, but if you're willing to use the attack enough and take the risk of getting a 1 or being punished for using it often, it's still a balance to an extent.

B-
Plus, it's not like spawning a Smash Ball guarantees getting it. On more than one occasion I've had a Smash Ball near me, hit it multiple times, then I have to be away from it for a minute, and in that time my opponent gets it.

tl;dr: I wouldn't consider it any less cheap spawning a Smash Ball than a randomly appearing one, though I agree with your end conclusion.

C-
Yeah, but that would only be a possibility for Brawl+ since no form of hacking will ever be tolerated for normal Brawl.

D-
And I don't think that's possible, anyways.

:flame:
A- That's just one of the Meta Game Shifts that would be caused by this phenomena. I'm certian these characters would become much stronger if they suddenly have the ability to produce Smash Balls. Otherwise, Diddy Kong wouldn't be nearly as high, since Banana's are probably the sharpest part of his edge, and Rob wouldn't be quite as campy without his Gyro... not to mention Toon Link with his Bombs + Boomerang + Arrows. But yes, it is sort of balanced since other people can use the Smash Ball too, but still you get what I mean. This actually happened to me, which is why this story means so much to me. And I'd much rather rish being hit by Judgement than being Gang-***** by a Waddle Dee Army.

B-It changes the Meta game too much, from a Offensive/Defensive Mind game to a ... wait, didn't I already talk about this?

C-What about that Homebrew thing? Actually, I've been meaning to ask exactly how that works and why we care about it.

And D-A boy can dream, can't he? Come on, Aura Blasting Wolf's smug little face would give me the world's greatest satisfaction.... Although being run over by the Land Master seems a bit harsh a fatality.
:flame:

 

[urdailywater]

Huh.. hard to say. I prefer all the other items over the smash ball myself... but really items in Brawl are too controlling at points so it's hard to say which ones would even be allowed. Smash balls would definitely be a no-no though. They are way too controlling for a random item spawn. Though I guess this depends if you know your final smashes. If you do, then more likely than not you got this. If not you're screwed.

I say nay though. Maybe just because I dislike smash balls personally. They really aren't as "fun" as the other items IMO since they are for the most part automatic...

 

[Firus]

:flame:
A- That's just one of the Meta Game Shifts that would be caused by this phenomena. I'm certian these characters would become much stronger if they suddenly have the ability to produce Smash Balls. Otherwise, Diddy Kong wouldn't be nearly as high, since Banana's are probably the sharpest part of his edge, and Rob wouldn't be quite as campy without his Gyro... not to mention Toon Link with his Bombs + Boomerang + Arrows. But yes, it is sort of balanced since other people can use the Smash Ball too, but still you get what I mean. This actually happened to me, which is why this story means so much to me. And I'd much rather rish being hit by Judgement than being Gang-***** by a Waddle Dee Army.

Yeah, but the Gyro and the Banana are both always guaranteed to come out when you hit Down B, and they're always guaranteed to benefit you at least somewhat.

I mean, let's be totally honest, Smash Balls are really uncommon from Dedede and Peach -- I've never even seen it from Peach, just a capsule from Dedede that spawned a Smash Ball.

B-It changes the Meta game too much, from a Offensive/Defensive Mind game to a ... wait, didn't I already talk about this?

It does, but that's not any different from a normally spawning Smash Ball, which was my point. I agree that Smash Balls are totally disruptive. All desirable items are, and Smash Balls are the most desirable of all (save for maybe Dragoon pieces).

C-What about that Homebrew thing? Actually, I've been meaning to ask exactly how that works and why we care about it.

Yes, Homebrew can be used to hack Brawl (if you're looking to figure out more about how it works, you can find out more in the Smash Workshop inside the GBD), but the reason Brawl+ originated in the first place is because the regular Smash BRoom is never going to make hacking tourney standard, and there are a lot of people against hacking, even if to make the game more balanced, because they think it's inherently wrong.

Maybe a part of Brawl+ or some other project, but not standard Brawl.

And D-A boy can dream, can't he? Come on, Aura Blasting Wolf's smug little face would give me the world's greatest satisfaction.... Although being run over by the Land Master seems a bit harsh a fatality.

:flame:

Heh, yeah, it would be pretty cool. I just think Final Smashes are very unflexible as far as coding goes and are hard to fool around with.

 

[BSP]

everything i would say against the idea has pretty much been said. I say no.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

A- Yeah, but the Gyro and the Banana are both always guaranteed to come out when you hit Down B, and they're always guaranteed to benefit you at least somewhat.

I mean, let's be totally honest, Smash Balls are really uncommon from Dedede and Peach -- I've never even seen it from Peach, just a capsule from Dedede that spawned a Smash Ball.



B-It does, but that's not any different from a normally spawning Smash Ball, which was my point. I agree that Smash Balls are totally disruptive. All desirable items are, and Smash Balls are the most desirable of all (save for maybe Dragoon pieces).



C-Yes, Homebrew can be used to hack Brawl (if you're looking to figure out more about how it works, you can find out more in the Smash Workshop inside the GBD), but the reason Brawl+ originated in the first place is because the regular Smash BRoom is never going to make hacking tourney standard, and there are a lot of people against hacking, even if to make the game more balanced, because they think it's inherently wrong.

Maybe a part of Brawl+ or some other project, but not standard Brawl.



D-Heh, yeah, it would be pretty cool. I just think Final Smashes are very unflexible as far as coding goes and are hard to fool around with.

:flame:
A- The items are actually more common than you'd think, although admitedly it's still pretty rare and astonashing to see Dedede throw a Smash Ball when the Items are set to None and all but the Smash Ball Off. Same with Peach. And the Gyro and Bananas are only definitely good for you if your enemy isn't more skilled with them than you are (although if they are, you're doing something wrong).

B-I don't think I was talking about them pulling it out period (or maybe i've forgotten myself at this point). I was talking about them in general too. I also agree, the game changes too much with them around.

C-Those Brawl+ creeps give me a bad vibe. I dun wanna get near them if I have to. But Homebrew being used to find out exact rates for damage and frame statistics and stuff like that, that would indeed be awesome. But, I'm bound to a very powerful code of honor (unlike some people who run around with hacked Jigglypuff), and hacking is very bad to me. So I guess I'll just have to stalk about, trying to obtain my information in the dark. I'm amoung those people who find hacking to balance the game instead of simply learning and outskilling your enemy an issue, but to learn about the game period isn't a bad endeavor.

D-****. Wait, what would Peach's Fatality be? She'd basically be just copying Kitana. Atleast Wolf's being cool about his.

*voice* FINISH HIM!
*Wolf* Play Time's Over! We're gonna have Fun with this Thing! (Pushes Button)
*Fox* GYAAA! (is crushed by the Wolf-Master)
:flame:

 

[Firus]

:flame:
A- The items are actually more common than you'd think, although admitedly it's still pretty rare and astonashing to see Dedede throw a Smash Ball when the Items are set to None and all but the Smash Ball Off. Same with Peach. And the Gyro and Bananas are only definitely good for you if your enemy isn't more skilled with them than you are (although if they are, you're doing something wrong).

What do you mean they're more common than I think...? I think I've played Brawl enough to judge that for myself...

Also, I never said they were ONLY definitely good for you, I said they definitely do at least some good for you. Even if your opponent picks it up and throws it back, they can't just run right up to it and grab it, so you've accomplished something in that by slowing them down.

B-I don't think I was talking about them pulling it out period (or maybe i've forgotten myself at this point). I was talking about them in general too. I also agree, the game changes too much with them around.

What do you mean "pulling it out period"?

C-Those Brawl+ creeps give me a bad vibe. I dun wanna get near them if I have to.

Creeps? That's kind of a strong term for people it sounds like you haven't associated with like, at all.

But Homebrew being used to find out exact rates for damage and frame statistics and stuff like that, that would indeed be awesome.

I've never heard about anything like that...then again, I don't delve much into codes and I don't make them myself.

But, I'm bound to a very powerful code of honor (unlike some people who run around with hacked Jigglypuff)

I assume you're talking about me, in which case I'm going to KILL YOU.

If you read my blogs at all whatsoever you would know that my Jigglypuff isn't hacked. The only codes I used in that run were in order to access the legendaries of Darkrai, Shaymin, and Arceus (though Arceus failed) in order to defeat them, because I like killing off all of the legendaries in solo runs.

My Jigglypuff was NOT hacked at all, and I resent that insinuation. Why the hell would I tackle a challenge like a solo-run if I were going to cheat and make my Jigglypuff more powerful? NOTHING about my Jigglypuff was hacked, unless through some indirect way hacking in a game with Jigglypuff makes it hacked itself, in which case you have a weird definition of "hacked".

Seriously, I have NO hacked Pokémon except for potentially ones that I've gotten in trades. I do not cheat in games either. I only use codes A) For fun, or B) To circumvent something I find stupid, e.g. the concept that I need to access a download (which is never going to get released for Diamond/Pearl anyways, just Platinum) in order to reach something already in a game because Nintendo is just cheap like that (i.e. Event Pokémon).

Think and read before you talk, please. If you had read my blog summing up my run, you would've seen the part that said that my Jigglypuff was perfectly legitimate and explained what I did with it...and, you know, SHOWED THE STATS AND ALL.

But I definitely hacked 88 Speed onto it. Yup, that's worth hacking. [/sarcasm]

and hacking is very bad to me. So I guess I'll just have to stalk about, trying to obtain my information in the dark. I'm amoung those people who find hacking to balance the game instead of simply learning and outskilling your enemy an issue, but to learn about the game period isn't a bad endeavor.

>_> You still have to learn how to outskill your enemy in Brawl+. The only thing it's doing is fixing it so some characters aren't horribly broken/horrible, and allowing for more tourney-legal stages by freezing some and implementing ones like the Wi-Fi waiting stage.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Because of character like sonic as compared to a character like G&W.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

everything i would say against the idea has pretty much been said. I say no.

Exactly my thoughts.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

What do you mean they're more common than I think...? I think I've played Brawl enough to judge that for myself...
Also, I never said they were ONLY definitely good for you, I said they definitely do at least some good for you. Even if your opponent picks it up and throws it back, they can't just run right up to it and grab it, so you've accomplished something in that by slowing them down.
What do you mean "pulling it out period"?
Creeps? That's kind of a strong term for people it sounds like you haven't associated with like, at all.
I've never heard about anything like that...then again, I don't delve much into codes and I don't make them myself.
>_> You still have to learn how to outskill your enemy in Brawl+. The only thing it's doing is fixing it so some characters aren't horribly broken/horrible, and allowing for more tourney-legal stages by freezing some and implementing ones like the Wi-Fi waiting stage.

I assume you're talking about me, in which case I'm going to KILL YOU.

If you read my blogs at all whatsoever you would know that my Jigglypuff isn't hacked. The only codes I used in that run were in order to access the legendaries of Darkrai, Shaymin, and Arceus (though Arceus failed) in order to defeat them, because I like killing off all of the legendaries in solo runs.

My Jigglypuff was NOT hacked at all, and I resent that insinuation. Why the hell would I tackle a challenge like a solo-run if I were going to cheat and make my Jigglypuff more powerful? NOTHING about my Jigglypuff was hacked, unless through some indirect way hacking in a game with Jigglypuff makes it hacked itself, in which case you have a weird definition of "hacked".

Seriously, I have NO hacked Pokémon except for potentially ones that I've gotten in trades. I do not cheat in games either. I only use codes A) For fun, or B) To circumvent something I find stupid, e.g. the concept that I need to access a download (which is never going to get released for Diamond/Pearl anyways, just Platinum) in order to reach something already in a game because Nintendo is just cheap like that (i.e. Event Pokémon).

Think and read before you talk, please. If you had read my blog summing up my run, you would've seen the part that said that my Jigglypuff was perfectly legitimate and explained what I did with it...and, you know, SHOWED THE STATS AND ALL.

But I definitely hacked 88 Speed onto it. Yup, that's worth hacking. [/sarcasm]

:flame:
Before I talk about anything else, I wanna talk about the stuff from the point you said you want to kill me.

First of all, if you really want to kill me, I'll tell you my address so you can find me and murder me. I've always wanted to be electrocuted, if you can try it that way, although I'll settle for a drowning or a good stabbing.

Second of all, I'm honestly and truly sorry. When I read your blog about the solo jigglypuff, I noticed as I scrolled back up the Dark Type Jigglypuff, but my stupid eyes didn't see the word SPRITE right freaking next to it. I've seen my friends actually change their Pokemon Type and Ability and such, so I didn't think too much about it, and just stupidly opened my mouth. I only jokingly mentioned the Jigglypuff comment, but I didn't use any common sense to think about how wrong I was, not to mention how offensive I was. And for this, I'm sorry. Can you forgive me, Firus?

When it comes to the action replay, I'll admit I've done some things I'm not proud of myself, but all I've done was made it so I could make any Wild Pokemon Appear, so I could EV Train faster, since it's much easier to kill 42 Sceptile than it is to kill 126 Starly to max my Chimchar's Speed. And the Legendary codes to give me the event items, so I could go meet them in their natural ground. I've admitely done that too. You kinda remind me of myself, play wise, for some reason.

Again, I'm really sorry. Can you forgive me?
:flame:

 

[Lord Sakurai]

Y ay

 

[OizenX]

Oh noes! Unfair this unfair that.

Its a game. Every character has its ups and downs.

The end.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Yes but this would make it even more unfair than it already is. Look at Falco, high tier already, then factor in him with Landmaster. It also makes the game more based on luck than skill, which makes Brawl more stupid than it already is.

Let me guess, you think tiers don't exist?