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Final Cutter revisited

ChivalRuse

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So Kirby's up-b (a.k.a., Final Cutter) is an interesting move. We all should know by now that if you get hit in midair after using it, you lose all 5 of your extra jumps. Risky? Oui.

However, I believe there are a few situations that justify using it onstage for other purposes besides recovering to the level.

1.
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If Ice Climbers give you enough room to use it. Why? Because up-b's projectile hitbox has a slow enough speed that if you happen to catch both Ice Climbers, it will juggle them both repeatedly for a lot of damage, and potentially put them offstage. Now, the caveat is that you have to space it perfectly, otherwise you can get punished via wavedash out of shield to grab or other painful options. But Final Cutter has a deceptively high amount of shield stun, so if you space it well, you won't necessarily get punished out of shield.

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2. Vs floaties as an anti-air. Think of this as your standard dash dance tactic. You have your opponent in the air falling with an aerial and can dash dance grab them in a lot of circumstances. The advantages of using up-b out of a dash dance instead of grab is that Kirby's grab doesn't do much to floaties, other than put them in the air, which is not terribly useful if there is a top platform for their recourse. Final Cutter, on the other hand, does 15%, it picks them up and puts them back on the ground in a knockdown state, and gives you some frame advantage. It's not so easy to tech either, because the victim, once sucked into the up-b vacuum, actually descends back toward the ground slower than Kirby does.

I was messing around against a Luigi player on netplay this week. I was able to up-throw the Luigi, bait out his falling nair, and hit him with up-b to reground him > jab reset > and from there I forget if I up-smashed, grabbed, or up-b'd again. The point is, Kirby's punish game is pretty bad, and I think Final Cutter is worth taking a look in specific situations (especially vs floaties, who get sucked into it more easily) to improve his punishes.

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Darklink401

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Yknow I never thought of using it onstage. You also have a hitbox in front of you so it'd be tricky for them to punish you on the rise/fall right?
 

ChivalRuse

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Yeah, it's surprisingly hard to punish if you space it well. You can also use it to edgeguard by throwing the projectile at someone level with the stage as they recover.

Using it to catch people landing with aerials is too sick too. And as I mentioned, if you happen to catch a floaty with the rising part of it, it will combo into the descending hit, which spikes them. They usually miss the tech, and that's a jab reset into up-smash or whatever is suitable.
 

MajinBuu272

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Not to mention that it has the potential to spike opponents as a ledge gaurding tool
 

Darklink401

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Not to mention that it has the potential to spike opponents as a ledge gaurding tool
I spiked a luigi to death at like 1% when he was trying to recover...I just wanted to get back to the ledge, but we take those XD
 

ChivalRuse

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Could you up B, jab reset and up B again? :O
Yes, you can. But I'm usually averse to using the same option repeatedly if it's escapable (techable). It is a pretty hard tech timing though (because most people expect that they will hit the ground at the same time as Kirby, but they hit a little bit afterward).
 
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Ministry

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I use it to grab the ledge actually. I run and up-b and reverse it while moving forward to quickly grab the edge going with forward momentum.
 

ChivalRuse

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It's faster to just run toward the ledge, wavedash toward it, then dash forward, back and wavedash to ledge. But you can do the up-b edgehog if you are not at any risk of having your cookies taken.
 

1000g2g3g4g800999

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I actually make regular use of the projectile for edgeguards and use it as a counter-hit to walk-up tilt attempts by Sheik and to go over certain projectiles. Amazingly, I've never been punished for using onstage final cutter, at least not with direct damage.

Also, offstage, if you get hit before Kirby pops up with the final cutter, you don't lose any jumps. Potentially maybe useful if you have extreme confidence in your timing vs Sheik needles and Falco laser.
 

ChivalRuse

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Yeah, edgeguarding with the up-b projectile is very good. Makes it hard for spacies to side-b sweetspot the ledge.

It hard to tell from Stratocaster's GIF of the up-b onstage if the initial uppercut hitbox of Final Cutter is out for 1 or 2 frames (it says "2" but I'm somewhat skeptical just looking at it). The hitbox does reach pretty far and is quite disjointed though. The timing would be almost impossible for beating moves like an approaching Fox or Falcon nair. Again, this is why dash dance -> up-b seems like the most appropriate situation to use it, on floaties whose forward momentum isn't as good.
 
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Ministry

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has anyone experimented with upb OOS as a punish against laggy moves like peach dash attack or sheik fsmash or other things?

I have been testing it. It works pretty well agasint get up attack. And i think it will give you more damage and position then what you would get off a grab normally. With potentially better followups.

could be something to really fit into kirbys neutral game.
 
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ChivalRuse

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Up-b has a lot of startup though - 23 frames I think. Usually it's not a true punish to anything except a whiffed move that you preemptively space the up-b for.

Characters that the grounded final cutter spikes:
Peach, Samus, Doc, Luigi, Mario, Pikachu, Pichu, Young Link, Game and Watch, Marth, Zelda, Mewtwo, Ness, Ice Climbers.

I just realized I didn't test it in the ditto. I'll have to do that later.
 
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