FH Needles > Bouncing Fish - True Combo Percents

[WondrousMoose]

Visually speaking, this is probably my favorite of Sheik's combos. It's been pretty popular with Sheik mains since early in Smash 4's competitive life but hasn't been fully explored until now.

This combo is performed from a full hop by releasing a full hand of needles as soon as Sheik is in the air and then executing Bouncing Fish. A variant can also be performed from a double jump, but the percents for that to work will vary widely. In summary, this is a high-percent kill combo that looks really awesome.

All testing was performed in Training Mode from a dash against a stationary, grounded CPU. This means that there is no Rage factored in and that no aerial targets were used, so actual percents in a match will vary. This table is meant to be viewed as a starting point for personal application. The ending percent is listed as a range of 5%, as testing at that end is incredibly precise and time-consuming.

Fighter|Starting %|Ending %|Range
Mario|95|170-175|80
Luigi|94|165-170|76
Peach|85|160-165|80
Bowser|100|205-210|110
Yoshi|96|180-185|89
Rosalina & Luma|84|160-165|81
Bowser Jr.|96|195-200|104
Wario|99|190-195|96
Mr. Game & Watch|85|145-150|65
Donkey Kong|102|205-210|108
Diddy Kong|96|180-185|89
Link|96|185-190|94
Zelda|87|160-165|78
Sheik|88|175-180|92
Ganondorf|100|190-195|95
Toon Link|92|165-170|78
Samus|94|200-205|111
Zero Suit Samus|84|170-175|91
Pit|92|190-195|103
Palutena|91|170-175|84
Marth|89|175-180|91
Ike|97|210-215|118
Robin|91|180-185|94
Kirby|85|150-155|70
King Dedede|103|205-210|107
Meta Knight|86|175-180|94
Little Mac|86|170-175|89
Fox|85|175-180|95
Falco|88|175-180|92
Pikachu|90|165-170|80
Charizard|99|195-200|101
Lucario|94|185-190|96
Jigglypuff|74|135-140|66
Greninja|93|185-190|97
Duck Hunt|91|180-185|94
ROB|96|195-200|104
Ness|92|160-165|73
Captain Falcon|95|195-200|105
Villager|93|160-165|72
Olimar|89|155-160|79
Wii Fit Trainer|92|175-180|88
Dr. Mario|96|175-180|84
Dark Pit|94|190-195|101
Lucina|89|175-180|91
Shulk|94|185-190|96
Pac-Man|92|175-180|88
Mega Man|96|195-200|104
Sonic|92|170-175|83
Mii Brawler|95|175-180|85
Mii Swordfighter|96|180-185|91
Mii Gunner|96|180-185|91
Mewtwo|80|160-165|85
Lucas|91|160-165|74
Roy|92|185-190|98
Ryu|96|180-185|89
Cloud|95|185-190|95

Notes

• Link and his cartoony counterpart cause some trouble, as their shield will often deflect the first couple needles.
• The combo appears to be affected primarily by a fighter's weight, fall speed, and hitbox size. As expected, fighters like Bowser and Ike eat this combo for days, while Jigglypuff and Kirby have a much narrower effective window.
  
• It has to be performed with a full hand of needles, as the extra frames required to charge even a single one will prevent Sheik from performing a follow-up aerial Bouncing Fish.
  
• At either end of the effective range, it's preferable to hit the opponent with three or four needles, requiring Sheik to jump from a little further back.

 

[Simikins]

Fantastic! Oh how I love lists of numbers.
I would like to point out that the three different mii's (Gunner, swordsman, brawler) all have different weights/fallspeeds/hurtbox sizes. I can guarantee that the %s for each mii type will vary, even using the standard size, as it did for my fair>bf testing.
I also notice you didn't do shulks arts. I can understand why you wouldn't but it is still good info to have.
So glad to finally have numbers for this.

 

[_Tree]

Very good work. Glad to have some numbers on this rather than just making educated guesses.

 

[WondrousMoose]

Fantastic! Oh how I love lists of numbers.
I would like to point out that the three different mii's (Gunner, swordsman, brawler) all have different weights/fallspeeds/hurtbox sizes. I can guarantee that the %s for each mii type will vary, even using the standard size, as it did for my fair>bf testing.
I also notice you didn't do shulks arts. I can understand why you wouldn't but it is still good info to have.
So glad to finally have numbers for this.

If that's been the case, then I'll go on and update accordingly.

 

[exnecross]

At lower percents, does it matter at all if the opponent is grounded or off stage? I feel like this works at lower percents in mid-air than it does on stage (less travel time for BF since you can be right on top of them), but I have absolutely no proof to back that up.

 

[WondrousMoose]

At lower percents, does it matter at all if the opponent is grounded or off stage? I feel like this works at lower percents in mid-air than it does on stage (less travel time for BF since you can be right on top of them), but I have absolutely no proof to back that up.

I don't believe it affects it significantly. Needles still have the same recovery frames, and at lower percents they don't raise the fighter into the air enough to be hit.

 

[exnecross]

I don't believe it affects it significantly. Needles still have the same recovery frames, and at lower percents they don't raise the fighter into the air enough to be hit.

I meant more like your opponent coming at you from below at a diagonal angle, or if you predict a jump and catch them. It's hard to explain, but it happens a lot. I feel like the length of the BF itself does play into the percents where this combo works, although maybe by only ~2% or so.

That being said, thanks for the numbers. More raw data is always appreciated.

 

[Numonik]

Thank you for the data. Great work.

I have a question about the combo. Sometimes when I do the FH needles my opponent goes flying higher than my bouncing fish can reach. What is it that is causing my opponent go higher? The angle?

I found that I can hit them by doing another jump before the bouncing fish if they fly higher. But I am not sure if this is a true combo. And it is hard to do because I'm basically guessing if my opponent will be flying high or not. It would be good to know what makes my opponent go high so I don't need to guess.

Also what does the Range column mean in the table?

 

[WondrousMoose]

Thank you for the data. Great work.

I have a question about the combo. Sometimes when I do the FH needles my opponent goes flying higher than my bouncing fish can reach. What is it that is causing my opponent go higher? The angle?

I found that I can hit them by doing another jump before the bouncing fish if they fly higher. But I am not sure if this is a true combo. And it is hard to do because I'm basically guessing if my opponent will be flying high or not. It would be good to know what makes my opponent go high so I don't need to guess.

Also what does the Range column mean in the table?

Hitting the opponent with too many or too few needles can send them too high, so you'll need to get used to the feel of it. They could also simply be at too high a percent for it to work. The Range column is the effective range of the combo, or the difference between the beginning and end. It's to give an idea of how long it works on each fighter relative to the rest of the cast.

 

[sparkyb]

So I'm having a hard time doing this combo. I guess I'm just not fast enough. I can't press Y then B without holding my controller in a weird way. Are there any tips you could give me? I'm just now picking up Sheik and I feel this is a good combo to start with and I would like some help, thanks.

 

[WondrousMoose]

So I'm having a hard time doing this combo. I guess I'm just not fast enough. I can't press Y then B without holding my controller in a weird way. Are there any tips you could give me? I'm just now picking up Sheik and I feel this is a good combo to start with and I would like some help, thanks.

This is actually why a lot of Sheik players set Z/L/R to jump. It's possible to just press the buttons quickly, but I suggest the change.

 

[Deleted member]

Made a video about this if you'd like something visual.
Explaining how to do it, button options, and average percentages.
Thank you WondrousMoose for the opportunity!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWLyXIXP6Dg

 

[Simikins]

What patch is this? I only noticed now there's no bayo or corrin. Also any minor weight changes since this was made will also affect the %s slightly. Would you be able to update it?

 

[Topskunium]

This is actually why a lot of Sheik players set Z/L/R to jump. It's possible to just press the buttons quickly, but I suggest the change.

I would maybe consider setting specials to Z/L/R as this helps just as much with this, and with INC or other Needle tricks, Even needle cancels.

Also, Just a thought, what followups do you have if the opponent Crouch-cancels the needle knockback at kill percents? Is the combo ruined, or can you get a Nair to BF or some other confirm?

 

[Simikins]

I would maybe consider setting specials to Z/L/R as this helps just as much with this, and with INC or other Needle tricks, Even needle cancels.

Also, Just a thought, what followups do you have if the opponent Crouch-cancels the needle knockback at kill percents? Is the combo ruined, or can you get a Nair to BF or some other confirm?

I personally have a shoulder button as special, for that very reason.

Crouch cancelling has no effect on the combo, as needles have multiple hits and the first hit takes you out of crouch.

 

[Lunanix]

So I'm having a hard time doing this combo. I guess I'm just not fast enough. I can't press Y then B without holding my controller in a weird way. Are there any tips you could give me? I'm just now picking up Sheik and I feel this is a good combo to start with and I would like some help, thanks.

When you are trying to pull the combo off you basically need to press special and jump at the same time (jump first and instantly special). I also found this insanely difficult at first since I used X to jump. I've since moved my special button to my L trigger and its helped a ton.

This is the video that I used to learn it and imo its a really well done video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWLyXIXP6Dg

Hope this helps

 

[Topskunium]

When you are trying to pull the combo off you basically need to press special and jump at the same time (jump first and instantly special). I also found this insanely difficult at first since I used X to jump. I've since moved my special button to my L trigger and its helped a ton.

This is the video that I used to learn it and imo its a really well done video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWLyXIXP6Dg

Hope this helps

For the record, pro-controller has jump and special next to each other and you can press them simultaneously.

I've personally moved grab to X and L, left R as Shield, and Z to special.

That is all.

 

[Lunanix]

For the record, pro-controller has jump and special next to each other and you can press them simultaneously.

I've personally moved grab to X and L, left R as Shield, and Z to special.

That is all.

I currently use a GC controller, feels much better for me. But I'm gonna do some testing with the L set to jump instead as I feel it might be useful for some tech. Maybe free Z up for special or jump instead and use Y for grab. Not sure yet, gotta test and see what feels most confutable.

 

[Topskunium]

I currently use a GC controller, feels much better for me. But I'm gonna do some testing with the L set to jump instead as I feel it might be useful for some tech. Maybe free Z up for special or jump instead and use Y for grab. Not sure yet, gotta test and see what feels most confutable.

Y for grab can definitely be shield aswell. I only have it to maximize mashing, and to mash tech in an unfavorable situation. L and R for shield and grab is just a personal thing to help me separate the two in my mind.

Before you ask, I don't play pro controller. I used to play 3DS though, and learnt that controller sadly. Theyre quite similar so I might start with Pro actually.

Somebody should really make a thread on Sheik specific advantages of each controller...

 

[Lunanix]

Y for grab can definitely be shield aswell. I only have it to maximize mashing, and to mash tech in an unfavorable situation. L and R for shield and grab is just a personal thing to help me separate the two in my mind.

Before you ask, I don't play pro controller. I used to play 3DS though, and learnt that controller sadly. Theyre quite similar so I might start with Pro actually.

Somebody should really make a thread on Sheik specific advantages of each controller...

I think for the most part its all down to preference. The 3DS is a bit awkward but I guess if you play the 3DS version as well it helps. I play with the GC mostly out of preference since I really like the C stick and the ways you can utilise it for tilts etc and back when I started playing tournaments Pros weren't acceptable. I just don't feel I get that same level of precision with the Pro controller. Although with the extra buttons and a lot of practice without the C stick you could defiantly make the pro controller work for you.

With them all being available now for tournament play, i think its mostly down to testing and choosing your own preference now.

 

[Topskunium]

Although with the extra buttons and a lot of practice without the C stick you could defiantly make the pro controller work for you.

The Pro controller has a C-stick. It's just above the ABYX buttons.

 

[Lunanix]

The Pro controller has a C-stick. It's just above the ABYX buttons.

Yeah I just find it a lot bigger and more awkward to use compared to the smaller size of the GC C-stick. I don't feel efficient flicking it like I do with the GC. Although that doesn't stop other people using it for sure, it does work I just feel more comfortable on the GC controller. As I said previously its all down to preference, I know loads of playing that play with GC and some that play with Pro. Its just down to finding what your most comfortable with.