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Faux Super Armor - P4 wins, all else equal

Jewdo

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*Disclaimer - If this is common knowledge, please ignore, lock, and delete.*

Everyone knows about Snake's Faux Super Armor - if Snake's player # is a greater number than his grab victim's, he cannot be hurt by his grenade explosions while he is grabbing them. Ex. Snake = P2, Link = P1. If a grenade goes off near the pair while Snake is grabbing Link, Snake will not be harmed.

Well, there's more to FSA than that. A brief investigation yielded the following results:

1.) FSA applies to everyone, not just Snake. Every character gains immunity to explosives while grabbing, as long as their controller port is a greater number than the victim's.

2.) FSA does not just apply to grenades. Any explosive, of any kind, will not harm the higher# player while he is grabbing his opponent.
Ex. Link's Bombs

3.) FSA does not just apply to explosives. If any damage source would hit both players (the grabber AND the grabbee) near-simultaneously, both players take damage. However, the lower# player will take normal knockback, but the higher# player will have ZERO knockback. The higher# player, as he takes damage, simply does a short "release grab" animation.
Ex. Snake (P1) is being grabbed by Link (P2). A nearby Marth approaches and does an f-smash that hits both of them. Snake goes flying, but Link takes damage and does not move at all.

4.) FSA does not just apply when the higher# player is grabbing - it also applies when he is being grabbed. If the higher# player, while being grabbed, is hit by an attack that would deal damage to both players, he does a short "grab escape" animation while taking damage, but the grabber takes full knockback.
Ex. As P2,Meta Knight can survive a full-powered PK Flash at 300%. as long as he is grabbing or being grabbed by P1 when he is hit.

5.) *update* FSA also protects against status effects. If both players, while grabbing, are hit by an attack that causes a secondary status effect, the higher# player will not be affected, but will still take damage.
Ex. Lucas unleashes a PK Freeze on P1 and P2 while one is grabbing the other. P1 will become frozen, P2 just takes damage.

In summary - P4 is now the best slot because, during grabs, P4's character gains invulnerability to explosives and zero knockback against attacks that would hit both him and his opponent.

Why this is important to know -

a) Team Battles. P1+P2 vs. P3+P4 means that it's safer for P3 and P4 to rescue each other from grabs. Also, P3 and P4 can safely smash an opponent to death while their partner holds them in place.
b) Singles matches if either player is using explosives
c) Stages with potentially lethal/exploitable hazards (Norfair, Halberd, etc)

*update - FSA seems like it will play a minor role in Singles, as it only affects three characters (Snake, Link, Toon Link). Teams, however, is where FSA's effects may need to be considered.*

Thoughts?
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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is this why every time I zelda upsmashed my friends during our 3-for-all when he was bowser-bellyflopping, it only hit the bowser and had no knockback on the wario in its hands.
 

Jewdo

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If Wario was a higher# control port than Bowser, then probably so. I have to test Bowser's side-B against this rule.

*edit: The bellyflop is the down-throw, not the side-b, so yes. Sorry about the mis-interpretation. ^ ^ Just for the record, though, Bowser's Side-B is not counted as a grab state in Brawl, therefore it is not subject to FSA.
 

orintemple

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Holy crap, I did not know about this, so I am glad you posted it. This is crazy. I am going to make sure to be player 4 all the time from now on.
 

Jewdo

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Did you try it in Training mode? All of this was tested in FFA combat. Since I've experienced so many inconsistencies between training and real combat, I've stopped using training mode to test things.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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training mode is still a much better test of which moves can kill at lower %... it helped me prove that Ivysaur's upsmash is more powerful than lucas'... it's just so much harder to hit with.
 

SamuraiPanda

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Interesting. No offense, but I hope this isn't true. This adds to the slowly growing list of things determined by player slot, and if much more is added to this list, there is going to be a whole subset of rules required for slots :/
 

SamuraiPanda

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That I personally know of? Well, since Melee there was a the grab priority thing (if 2 players grab at the same time, higher slot will win) and using Bowser's klaw to suicide will result in sudden death if you're a lower slot, or a win for Bowser if you're in a higher slot.
 

chubas

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I have noticed that (I think we all, thanks to Snake), but its nice to see solid information.

I just hope this doesn't become a decisive factor on the game. Yet one has to know.
 

Jewdo

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Grab priority is STILL determined by controller port? Ouch. Glad it's relatively rare to see both players grab simultaneously.

I'll add a new "Port Number Advantages" section to the guide if enough of these things emerge (until then, the three existing advantages stay in their respective sections), but I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that. These things destroy the fairness of an otherwise great game. And we were almost rid of them, too!
 

kamekasu

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That I personally know of? Well, since Melee there was a the grab priority thing (if 2 players grab at the same time, higher slot will win) and using Bowser's klaw to suicide will result in sudden death if you're a lower slot, or a win for Bowser if you're in a higher slot.
Transformation order is determined by character slot as well. If two P. Trainers or Sheiks down-B animations coincide, the character with the lower controller slot will transform first while the other character will lag until the animation is over.
 

Kyari

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Transformation order is determined by character slot as well. If two P. Trainers or Sheiks down-B animations coincide, the character with the lower controller slot will transform first while the other character will lag until the animation is over.
When you say lower, do you mean lower in #, like 1, or lower in terms of some kind of priority, like 4?
 

Kyari

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This is still pretty ridiculous, but I was thinking about the 2v2 port imbalance and I got to thinking: wouldn't the best way to solve it be to force one team to be P1+P4 and the other team be P2+P3? This splits up the advantages uniquely and, IMO, more evenly than having both teams touch or having alternating ports.
 

JCaesar

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Uncool. I can picture everyone at a tournament playing rock/paper/scissors for P4 now.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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That I personally know of? Well, since Melee there was a the grab priority thing (if 2 players grab at the same time, higher slot will win) and using Bowser's klaw to suicide will result in sudden death if you're a lower slot, or a win for Bowser if you're in a higher slot.
wow, I must admit that that's lame... it wouldn't be so bad except that every glitch favours the later slot
 

SamuraiPanda

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Sorry, in my post I meant higher slot to mean P1 > P2. This is the first thing I've seen where P2 > P1. And these are in no way glitches. This is deliberate programming.
 

Vro

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This is still pretty ridiculous, but I was thinking about the 2v2 port imbalance and I got to thinking: wouldn't the best way to solve it be to force one team to be P1+P4 and the other team be P2+P3? This splits up the advantages uniquely and, IMO, more evenly than having both teams touch or having alternating ports.
I was thinking the same thing. I know grab priority and transformation is based on the lower number, so if FSA is based on the higher number, splitting seems semi-fair... more fair than nothing.
 

Cooper736

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This just makes me laugh. It's amazing how something so random could have such a big impact on a game (though I'd imagine it'll be much more useful in teams, rather than singles where matches are played 1 vs. 1).

The question is though, in a tournament situation, is it better to be player 1 or player 4? From what I gather from the information, p4 gets less knockback in general, but p1 has grab priority. Hmm.... Either way I'm so putting my controller into slot 4.
 

hotgarbage

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...... could someone tell me why random crap like this was put in the game? It doesn't make any freaking sense.


Anyways nice find
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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DRaGZ

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It may have been programmed that way as a lazy way of figuring out what to do when two players grab each other simultaneously.

It's really a load of BS that the controller port determines a lot of frame-specific stuff like that.
 

Impact009

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That I personally know of? Well, since Melee there was a the grab priority thing (if 2 players grab at the same time, higher slot will win) and using Bowser's klaw to suicide will result in sudden death if you're a lower slot, or a win for Bowser if you're in a higher slot.
I thought in Melee, the controller port closest to player 1 had the most priority. Somebody quote Mew2King's testing. It included grabs, attacks, and repositioning when two objects land on the same spot.

Edit: Ignore this; I didn't see his previous post.
 

Brahma

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At least all priority doesn't always go to P1 anymore, and there's a reason to pick different slots now. I don't understand why this FSA exists though, it seems too intentional to be an oversight.
 

1HKO

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At least all priority doesn't always go to P1 anymore, and there's a reason to pick different slots now. I don't understand why this FSA exists though, it seems too intentional to be an oversight.
you stated within your post why FSA exists.
Anyways aside from that higher player slots have been getting lots of love from where they appear at the beginning of the match (green hill zone anyone?), and also where they appear after death(to the predominately better side of left). The map developers have tried to even out P1's advantage by giving the left side of the play area advantages over the right side!:)
 

Jewdo

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I tested the various suicides for controller port advantages. Results are as follows:

Kirby/DeDeDe - no controller port advantage. Both players always die simultaneously. If this is done in Sudden Death, the Inhale's victim is counted as the loser.
Wario/DK - no controller port advantage. Wario/DK always dies first.
Bowser - If Bowser is P1 and victim is P2, Bowser wins. If Bowser is P2 and victim is P1, Sudden Death.
Ganondorf - No controller port advantage. Both players die simultaneously. However, for reasons undetermined, Ganon will occasionally die first.

This is still pretty ridiculous, but I was thinking about the 2v2 port imbalance and I got to thinking: wouldn't the best way to solve it be to force one team to be P1+P4 and the other team be P2+P3? This splits up the advantages uniquely and, IMO, more evenly than having both teams touch or having alternating ports.
I drew out a list of team match-ups and the advantages given to either side. It's actually... kinda tough to say decisively which match-up has the best balance. It comes down to how exploitable each advantage is relative to the others and which set of advantages best balances the exploits between two teams. I'll leave that up to each community member to decide.

Grab Priority advantage - if two players grab simultaneously, lower # wins.

Transform advantage - if two players transform at the same time, lower # transforms first.

Bowsercide advantage - one player remains from each team with one stock. If the player with the lower# port suicides his opponent as Bowser, his team wins.

FSA advantage - what the first post is about.

[=== P1+P2 vs. P3+P4 ===]

*Team 1*
absolute Grab Priority (both)
absolute Transform advantage (both)
absolute Bowsercide advantage (both)

*Team 2*
absolute FSA advantage (both)

[=== P1+P3 vs. P2+P4 ===]

*Team 1*
P1 has absolute Grab Priority, Transform, and Bowsercide advantage
P3 has FSA when grabbing P2, Grab Priority/Transform/Bowsercide over P4

*Team 2*
P4 has absolute FSA advantage
P2 has FSA when grabbing P1, Grab Priority/Transform/Bowsercide over P3

[=== P1+P4 vs. P2+P3 ===]

*Team 1*
P1 has absolute Grab Priority, Transform, and Bowsercide advantage
P4 has absolute FSA advantage

*Team 2*
P2 and P3 have FSA over P1, Grab/Transform/Bowsercide over P4


Thoughts?
 

Jewdo

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Thanks for the red flag, Panda. I re-visited Ganondorf's suicide after your input and found a different something weird instead. Ganoncide has no controller port advantage, and both players die simultanously. In Sudden Death, Ganoncide causes Ganon to lose. For unknown reasons, though, he occasionally dies first in normal matches. I could not isolate the cause, so I'll leave that alone for now.

This information also affects team advantages, which I've been doing some thinking about. Bowsercide is now the only suicide with a controller advantage, so it affects only 1/39 of the roster. Transform advantage also affects only 6/39 characters (Zelda/Shiek, Pokemon, Samus), therefore the probability of even a Transform advantage being possible in a match is 36/1521 (2.37%). Though Grab Priority affects every character, the only way it would play a role in the match is if your opponent grabbed you at the exact same time you wanted to grab them. These three advantages are only effective in rare situations, so they are not terribly likely to play a role in a match, let alone a winning strategy.

This leaves us with FSA. FSA happens often (every time a character is grabbed), is relatively easy to re-create (just grab your opponent), and has exploit applications in a match (P1 holds, P4 smashes).

With this in mind, it would seem most appropriate to balance the game based on FSA. Based on this info, Kyari's suggestion of P1+P4 vs. P2+P3 seems most appropriate. Sorry for ever doubting you, Kyari. Sometimes people have to come to the same conclusion after their own analysis before they can admit that you've been right from the start. ^ ^

TL; DR - Ganoncide has no controller port advantage, but a rare bug that causes him to lose sometimes.
P1+P4 vs. P2+P3 is the best team balance
Thanks go out to Panda and Kyari, apologies to Kyari.
 
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