"Fascinating Chimera Project" - Match-Up Discussions. (DK, Lucina, Meta-Knight)

[MrWhYYZ]

Seeing as how our Match-up discussions died out a very while back here's the reboot.

How will this work?

Mon-Wed (Discussion Time!)
We'll discuss 3 match-ups a week, usually a high-tier, mid-tier and low-tier character. Feel free to post in-depth information about the match-up and how they work. Saying we win/lose because move X (Which is usually PK-fire+Z-air) isn't enough. We want as much information as possible and really dig deep in the match-up.

Thu-Sun (Play time!)
Now we'll take our theory fighting out of the Lab and into the streets. Go on Anther's or ask other people on smashboards that main one of those characters to play you and come back and posts your findings! You obviously can do this during discussion time however, it's better to wait until some discussion has taken place. That way you know what you should look out for in the match. Did stuff we discussed worked or didn't it? Try to capture your matches as well so we as a community can look at them and learn from it.

Sun-Mon (Number Time)
Now that we have discussed the match-up intensively and played it as well against good opponents it's time to give numbers. Besides just giving numbers we'll also go back on our discussion and pick what we find useful. Liking posts in general will help as well as I'll take notes on which posts get the most likes but handpicking certain elements is important as well. These posts and elements will be quoted and stored in the Discussion Hall of Memories so we can easily access information when needed. Numbers will be stored as well.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Hall Of Memories

This is where our discussions will be recorded every week.

Spoiler: vs. Cloud

Well, it's been a little while since I played my state's Robin player, but from what I recall, at a distance, Robin will try to play campy until Arcfire or Arcthunder connect, then go for some grab combos. Up close, they'll happily throw out Levin Sword aerials as many times as they need to to catch you.

At the kind of distance the Robin can close in time if they hit with a projectile, Lucas shouldn't ever shield; along with anyone else. Getting hit by Arcfire or Arcthunder and SDI-ing out is preferable to holding shield and getting grabbed. Of course, since it's Lucas, absorbing or reflecting them is even more preferable. The options Robins throw out the most don't heal much, but that's not really important. They'll occasionally decide to just spam their projectiles (Thunder and Elthunder, which will heal much more) or aerials to get a book or sword to throw at you, and knowing that they now have that in hand, the easiest thing to do is bait the toss while closing in and start boxing with them. Arcfire and the various Thunders come out so slowly that there's not much to worry about if they're on-deck, but if they have the Levin Sword, there's not much to be gained from getting in their face.

Robin's projectiles are limited, while Lucas' aren't. Proper Fire and Magnet use should negate all of Robin's projectiles until they're throwing something physical at you, but that still won't give you an opening to go in. Dance around the Robin in the air, bait some aerials, exhaust the Levin Sword, and keep track of what's been exhausted and what hasn't. Play either defensive or evasive until the sword is gone, then push as hard as possible in the time have. And remember that if you get a good read and they don't power shield, you can reflect thrown items for pretty heavy shield damage.

-.

Spoiler: vs. Ike

Spoiler: vs.Robin

Well, it's been a little while since I played my state's Robin player, but from what I recall, at a distance, Robin will try to play campy until Arcfire or Arcthunder connect, then go for some grab combos. Up close, they'll happily throw out Levin Sword aerials as many times as they need to to catch you.

At the kind of distance the Robin can close in time if they hit with a projectile, Lucas shouldn't ever shield; along with anyone else. Getting hit by Arcfire or Arcthunder and SDI-ing out is preferable to holding shield and getting grabbed. Of course, since it's Lucas, absorbing or reflecting them is even more preferable. The options Robins throw out the most don't heal much, but that's not really important. They'll occasionally decide to just spam their projectiles (Thunder and Elthunder, which will heal much more) or aerials to get a book or sword to throw at you, and knowing that they now have that in hand, the easiest thing to do is bait the toss while closing in and start boxing with them. Arcfire and the various Thunders come out so slowly that there's not much to worry about if they're on-deck, but if they have the Levin Sword, there's not much to be gained from getting in their face.

Robin's projectiles are limited, while Lucas' aren't. Proper Fire and Magnet use should negate all of Robin's projectiles until they're throwing something physical at you, but that still won't give you an opening to go in. Dance around the Robin in the air, bait some aerials, exhaust the Levin Sword, and keep track of what's been exhausted and what hasn't. Play either defensive or evasive until the sword is gone, then push as hard as possible in the time have. And remember that if you get a good read and they don't power shield, you can reflect thrown items for pretty heavy shield damage.

I'd put the matchup as slightly in Lucas' favour for his mobility, though Robin's momentum can be hard to escape once they get you going, and the Levin Sword is a big part of that, which is why I think baiting its usage is key to giving you a safe way to put pressure on.

Spoiler: vs. Donkey Kong

Spoiler: vs.Lucina

Spoiler: vs.Meta Knight

 

[MrWhYYZ]

[Reserved just in case]

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Week 1 discussion will be
v
v
v

 

[BornABrawler]

New thread looks pretty snazzy! Personally I would've started with Mario then gone down the roster, but to each their own. I'll discuss here eventually but for now I want to consider some things. I've fought Cloud and Robin pretty extensively, but I've played very few Ike's.

 

[PKBeam]

We starting this now?
-1
0
0

Will elaborate later.

 

[frozentreasure]

"The Battle Memory", come on, it's so obvious!

 

[BornABrawler]

"The Battle Memory", come on, it's so obvious!

That would fit this thread pretty well, but didn't PKBeam already a Lucas guide called "The Battle Memory"? It'd be a little repetitive. Maybe like "Boney's Sniff List"? I don't know.

 

[frozentreasure]

Well, it's been a little while since I played my state's Robin player, but from what I recall, at a distance, Robin will try to play campy until Arcfire or Arcthunder connect, then go for some grab combos. Up close, they'll happily throw out Levin Sword aerials as many times as they need to to catch you.

At the kind of distance the Robin can close in time if they hit with a projectile, Lucas shouldn't ever shield; along with anyone else. Getting hit by Arcfire or Arcthunder and SDI-ing out is preferable to holding shield and getting grabbed. Of course, since it's Lucas, absorbing or reflecting them is even more preferable. The options Robins throw out the most don't heal much, but that's not really important. They'll occasionally decide to just spam their projectiles (Thunder and Elthunder, which will heal much more) or aerials to get a book or sword to throw at you, and knowing that they now have that in hand, the easiest thing to do is bait the toss while closing in and start boxing with them. Arcfire and the various Thunders come out so slowly that there's not much to worry about if they're on-deck, but if they have the Levin Sword, there's not much to be gained from getting in their face.

Robin's projectiles are limited, while Lucas' aren't. Proper Fire and Magnet use should negate all of Robin's projectiles until they're throwing something physical at you, but that still won't give you an opening to go in. Dance around the Robin in the air, bait some aerials, exhaust the Levin Sword, and keep track of what's been exhausted and what hasn't. Play either defensive or evasive until the sword is gone, then push as hard as possible in the time have. And remember that if you get a good read and they don't power shield, you can reflect thrown items for pretty heavy shield damage.

I'd put the matchup as slightly in Lucas' favour for his mobility, though Robin's momentum can be hard to escape once they get you going, and the Levin Sword is a big part of that, which is why I think baiting its usage is key to giving you a safe way to put pressure on.

-

In Cloud's case while he's running away to charge limit, his neutral air covers as much area around him as possible, so Clouds will likely be (taking you to a stage with platforms and then) jumping from platform to platform, throwing out a neutral air, then charging for a short burst, before jumping away again. Haven't really found a solid answer to this yet; approaching from beneath with a neutral air would make the Cloud put up their shield, and with Lucas right next to them, they would most likely try to hit him away before moving out to charge, so you could trick the player into playing with your rhythm for a little while.

Once they have limit, of course, then they'll start actually fighting you. At that point, shielding helps more than anything. A Cloud won't be dumb enough to try just running up for a grab; they'll typically come in with a dash attack, neutral air, or down tilt, so shield is a fine option, as long as you recognise what moves you can use out of it. Jab is so fast that if Cloud ever comes in with an attack you should be able to respond in kind. Because Cloud's range is so ridiculous, the best thing to do will always be getting him offstage. Either you can quickly KO him from his recovery or burn his limit. Neutral air and PK Thunder are the best tools to harass a Cloud offstage.

You don't ever want to be above Cloud; and not really directly below him, either. If you're above him and he's fishing for his up air, get to the ledge; I swear I've beaten it once with Lucas' neutral air, but since I haven't been able to do it more than once, the ledge is a safer option. If you're below him, either it's from a combo you started or the Cloud is probably coming in with a down air. If they like doing that a lot, note what option they use out of the autocancel and punish accordingly; if you have the space to run away from them, just move back a bit and meet their landing with a PK Fire.

If you get to the ledge and Cloud has limit, too, go for the tether and don't reel in. A less patient Cloud will almost certainly try to fall off and hit you with Cross Slash for the KO when you're in that position. If you're unable to tether, be smart about mixing up your PK Thunder angle, since everything Cloud can do interrupts it, even Blade Beam. If they're a smart Cloud, they won't be using Blade Beam in any other circumstance, but if they're a creature of habit, they may throw it out as soon as they hit you offstage; you may be able to fall down to absorb it in time.

Only other thing I can think of in terms of general movesets is that using the rope snake in neutral isn't the best idea, since the cloud can down tilt on reaction and scoot under it. Of course, if they aren't using down tilt in response to it, go for it.

I feel like Cloud's damage output, early KO potential, and chunky, long-lasting hitboxes put the match significantly in his favour, but the ability to take his stocks so quickly the moment he's put offstage evens it back up to only be a slight disadvantage for Lucas. As soon as Cloud makes a mistake or Lucas gets a proper read, it should be his stock gone. Lucas' zoning game is still strong, and will harass a Cloud enough to make them want to go in, especially if they have limit. Camping the ledge and waiting for the aerial approach, then throwing offstage can be a good starting point for a game plan.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

So no one on the Ike match-up?
Oh well, I'm going to a different country for a tournament coming weekend so I can't really update during the weekend.

We'll just abandon Ike for now and focus on 3 new match-ups.
For people who are wandering how I randomize I use the 1.1.5 tier-list made by the BR and pick 1 match-up out of 1-15,16-30 and 31-54.

Used the randomizer and our next 3 disscusions will be:
v
v
v

 

[PKBeam]

0 (-1 maybe? not 100% on this)
+1
+1

as for Ike -
He does quite a bit with each hit/grab but when you put it into perspective - don't let him aerial your shield and he'll probably take % just getting in - plus we can outspeed him in the air. Although he can kill easier than us - without a grab we can be waiting till mid 100s just to smack him with something good.

I don't really see an advantage for either side in offstage. PKT/PKF are free damage when Ike doesn't have quick draw onstage, Freeze is free on Aether - and you can probably run off and Bair him during it too, but from behind he might be able to tech, and in front of him you're probably not gonna hit. At the same time, however, it's not fun to eat a charged Eruption that hits you before you can even grab the ledge (thank god for tether cancelling) - and with its massive hitbox you can't really jump over it unless you mindgame him with airdodge timing.

Lucina - the spacing game is important here, but it's a lot more forgiving than vs that other guy, but we're not talking about him. You really have to watch your spacing game to take advantage of your zoning tools. Lucina can get pretty ugly on you if you get cornered so you have to make space. Fortunately Fair can be either shieldgrabbed or somehow punished on block, so it's not a free ticket for her.

Basically, as long as you keep applying Zair/PKF correctly, you can make it hard for Lucina and easier for yourself, moreso than in most matchups. You want to kinda just wait for her to approach and try to get something off of it. Don't get stuck into an extended CQC fight because that's not very fun for you. Jab, Ftilt and shield are the only things I'd really use in that situation, if I were not running away, because all of them lose to her range. you want to eventually get some sort of landing punish too, because Lucina isn't great at dealing with that.

also, Up-B. It's not terribly worrying, but she can do this OoS to Fair (unless you execute it perfectly) and a lot of other stuff. also be careful since it has some kill power at the ledge starting around 120-ish.

killing is basically her Fsmash = our Fsmash but better. she actually doesn't really have anything else except Usmash, which you could almost Usmash yourself on shield drop. maybe Uair if you're unlucky. after that you get Uthrows, Nairs, Fairs. we can actually grab her tho.

offstage - basically free PKT if Lucina must grab the ledge. you can also go for a stagespike too, but that's very much techable. be careful because she can do stuff to us too, like counter (avoidable, but a genuine threat). aerials will kill you earlier offstage too.

+1 because I think Lucas can barely edge her out with zoning tools, a slightly better kill game and somewhat better offstage game.

 

[JosePollo]

To add onto Lucina (and by extension, Marth) her more extended combos use a lot of weak/weight based knockback (Dancing Blade, first hit of nair, etc.) so it's especially hard for floaty Lucas to get out of her stuff once she gets started unless the Lucina player is not on-point. If she takes your double jump, you're in for a pretty long ride. It's still not a lot of damage, but gives her complete control of the stage, and she's usually going to finish off-stage, or in some other unfavorable position.

I haven't faced a lot of decent Meta Knight players, so I can't really comment on him. From what little I've played, though, Lucas absolutely cannot land due to Meta Knight's juggle game and off-stage presence. All of his aerials are able to mess with PKT2 no problem, so even recovering can be a challenge. Lucas does have much better neutral imo but he absolutely cannot afford to get hit. Against decent Meta Knight players I'd definitely try to play extremely conservative.

DK vs. Lucas is pretty much butt for DK due to Lucas's superior spacing tools and his ability to avoid being grabbed. Once you get in on DK you can easily rack up percentage by keeping him airborne. His recovery is also susceptible to dair due to it only being invincible at the arms. Back air works, too, but you have to hit with the last 2-3 frames above his head otherwise his up b will hit you out of it. This is basically don't get grabbed and you win. I'd put this 60:40 or even 65:35 in Lucas's favor. You really shouldn't be getting hit much by DK (though he can still easily kill you with his Ding Dong).

 

[frozentreasure]

It's a hard time for DK if you know how to play the matchup. If you go into a fight against DK expecting to just be able to throw out hitboxes and have them work because DK is so huge, you'll get dash attacked, grabbed out of shield, and ruined while DK just gets more and more rage. Lucas has a strong autopilot, but it will lose to a DK that's really trying.

If you can get DK to fall into your rhythm, you can get good combos and sequences on him, but the key, like with a lot of big, strong characters that can destroy Lucas very quickly and don't lose any of their tools because of Magnet and side smash, is to irritate him from a distance until he commits to something he shouldn't.

Worth keeping in mind that, as far as I can recall off the top of my head, his only ways to get in are with a dash attack, Spinning Kong (take you by surprise, maybe), or a back air. Just don't push in on shield or land too close to DK with anything, or he'll be able to get a grab or a few tilts.

 

[JosePollo]

Worth keeping in mind that, as far as I can recall off the top of my head, his only ways to get in are with a dash attack, Spinning Kong (take you by surprise, maybe), or a back air. Just don't push in on shield or land too close to DK with anything, or he'll be able to get a grab or a few tilts.

I'm guessing it's just the hitbox placement on grounded Spinning Kong, but I've reliably been able to jump into DK with a nair during the animation to completely just disrupt it since the super armor stops when his hitboxes become active. Zair and PK Fire both beat it, so it's not really reliable, like, at all. Especially since you should be playing at a safe enough distance to where you can just punish the endlag on it without risking getting pulled in.

 

[Lochy]

DK loses this battle in my opinion.
A big character and not so mobile character like him loses if you keep him at a distance. He is very suspectable to our combos and locks that we have.
Also with advanced techs like wavebouncing PK Fire our movement becomes even better, making it even harder for DK.
The one thing we have to watch out for is not falling into his trickery, and we don't want him to have control of the situation, whether it be stage control, dominace, etc.
I would give it a +1. We have an advantage but the DK is not hugely shutdown like other characters.

 

[Samwonders5]

DK is probably the easiest character in the game to footstool combo. His large structure makes him very susceptible to zair to grab followups as well.