(FAQ) "Why aren't Kirby Hats perfect copies?"

[Shell]

Hey guys, I hope you're enjoying Kirby.

A question that I'm sure is bound to pop up - "Why aren't Kirby Hats perfect neutral-special copies? Why are some missing little features that the original character has, or why are they sometimes not even neutral-special moves at all!?"

Short answer - technical difficulties, maybe someday they all will be perfect copies.

Long answer - Let's look at the scope we're dealing with - 41 moves right now. Most characters only use 16 attacks total, so we're dealing with roughly "2 entire characters worth" of attacks... all jammed into one move on one character. So there's a lot to work on for relatively little reward in the big picture of Kirby's kit.

If that weren't hard enough, there are several more challenges. The first is that we cannot edit any of Kirby's Hat Actions in our usual software, and instead have to hex edit or inject every change. Floating point values (which determine stuff like how quickly a projectile moves) and hitboxes which are normally visible have to be hunted down in hex scattered across Kirby's main file and his separate hat files.

On top of that, we do not currently possess a means to allow Clone Character Hats to load up any articles. I had to get creative and use Kirby's own Cutter Blade model instead of Roy's, and decided to do Mewtwo's Disable Attack instead of the article-based Shadow Ball.

Lastly, some attacks just required too much time or file space to put in at the moment. Lucas's OU nB attack, for instance, would take up a considerable amount of time and space rigging up to all of Kirby's smashes, which aren't particularly useful for Kirby compared to Lucas, anyways. Thus, we got creative and turned the Freeze article into a rough copy of Lucas's Side-B attack.

-----

Anyways, we'll try to improve the Hats and port over more features as necessary with time. In some instances where porting a feature directly isn't possible, we'll do our best to improve other aspects of the Hat to compensate (as we've already done with some Hats in 3.0).

Thanks for understanding, everyone.

Big shout out to standardtoaster, ds22, Dantarion, & Spex for getting the hats working as well as they do, with a little help from myself.

Take care,
-Shell

 

[9bit]

Loving Kirby. I'm gonna try to make a list of all the differences if I can.

Editing this later.

Current list:

• Bowser: flame does not get smaller over time
• Charizard: flame cannot be angled
• Game & Watch: can throw food at a faster rate
• Ivysaur: start with fully charged beam that only works once, no healing factor
• Kirby: divides by zero, destroys universe
• Lucario: charges longer to make a bigger ball, travels faster with less vertical movement
• Lucas: side-B used instead, goes slightly shorter distance, no freeze effect on hit
• Metaknight: similar to Brawl's tornado - lasts forever, does a ton damage
• Mewtwo: down-B used instead
• Olimar: pulls random Pikmin and automatically throws it
• Pit: arrows have less curve, but maybe I'm just bad
• Roy: charges to full faster, uses Cutter as sword
• Samus: Cannot charge beam in the air
• Snake: cannot roll grenades, has better beard
• Squirtle: does no damage, charges by pressing B, not holding, more pushback (I think it's just basically Brawl's version?)
• Wario: gets multiple chews instead of just one
• Wolf: projectile goes a shorter distance

 

[Xebenkeck]

Ness: Pk Flash can still dissipate on the ground like in Brawl when Kirby uses it.

 

[standardtoaster]

LD950, thanks for making that list. The Metaknight hat duration will be fixed in the patch.

 

[Nevergreen]

A couple more

Sonic: on hit, Kirby falls directly to the ground instead of bouncing upward
Yoshi: Tongue hitbox extends behind Kirby
Sheik: Needs to Fullpress shield to store needles
Falco: gangsta lasers audio not synced properly
Marth: No sword sparkles during charge
Pit: Arrows don't use the new "Light" element
Link: Takes slightly longer to charge bow, lower trajectory (vBrawl?)
Toon Link: No fire effect until arrow hits the ground

 

[Rizner]

Thank you for the info, much appreciated. I'll see about adding to this later tonight

 

[internetmovieguy]

LD950, thanks for making that list. The Metaknight hat duration will be fixed in the patch.

Aww... But i liked that one. perhaps you can over look that one?



Samus: can't charge in the air (Brawl version)
Zelda: Longer ending lag (Brawl version)

 

[210stuna]

Pretty much Kirby's abilities are almost entirely vBrawl's.

 

[skellitorman]

Although there may be more bugs, I only ran into 2 small bugs after testing all the copy abilities that I don't see mentioned yet:
1. After fully charging up Shiek's Needles, Kirby doesn't glow, nor does the charging sound effect stop.
2. Zero suit Samus’s shot doesn’t visually match its range. The bullet literally disappears and then hits a few feet in front.

I thought the reason that some of his powers were better versions than his opponent's was to give Kirby an actual advantage against that character, since he has to actually succeed in getting the power first. Having the same exact power as the opponent sometimes becomes a great advantage, however sometimes having the same power doesn't help in the slightest, so making it a bit better than the original actually makes it worth acquiring.

For example using Foxes projectile against him isn't very effective since Fox can use reflector and move way faster than Kirby. However Kirby's "Fox projectile" does more damage than Fox's so getting a few shots here and there may actually be worth the effort, and make it more punishing for Fox to just run away and shoot you with lasers until he decides to kill you since if you shoot him back you'll be doing more damage. Furthermore you would need to actually acquire the power first which isn't easy, especially against Fox.

I now know that some of the powers are the way they are because of the reasons that Shell gave. Regardless, I am just trying to give some feedback which hopefully may be helpful despite this being my first day impressions with 3.0.

I think that Kirby should gain an advantage when acquiring the opponent's power (not too good like when copying Wario). I tested every power, but there are only a few I feel should be changed, despite some being better than the original.

1. Diddy Kong: The trajectory is currently angled too high and whiffs against Diddy Kong. Slightly lowering the angle should fix this easily.

2. Sonic: This move is completely unusable. Much weaker than Sonic's homing missile in terms of properties. Too slow and too much lag, especially when whiffed and then hits the ground.

3. Ice Climber: This move is completely inferior to the Ice Climber's in every aspect. It does less damage, the icicle is smaller, and there is no hitbox on the hammer. Furthermore it wouldn't help since the Ice Climbers always shoot two at once. For how difficult it is to get the Ice Climber's projectile and how difficult the MU was (I can't say how the MU is now) I propose that this move is way stronger than the original. Firstly it should be able to do more damage than the Ice Climber's and it should be able to at least cancel both of the projectiles.

4. Yoshi: This move has really short range and doesn't seem very effective at all. I personally think it would be much better to just replace it with Yoshi's UP B.

5. Dedede: Since the move does the same exact damage as Kirby's B does, I think it should have increased damage, as well as retain Kirby's air mobility.

6. Wolf: Because of Kirby's mobility I found it hard to utilize this projectile with Kirby. I'd like to know how others felt about it.

7. Olimar: I believe this is the same ability as it was in Brawl and it is currently very weak. You can only use it on the ground and you get a random Pikmin which all have different throw trajectories making it extremely difficult to use. I think it would be fair if they all had the same trajectory, but have the same effects as the ones that Olimar has.

8. Jigglypuff: Jigglypuff was an extremely difficult MU in Melee. I can't say how the MU has changed but I think Kirby should get something better than rollout. Pound would be very helpful in this MU, so I think he should get that move instead, or anything but rollout.

9. Marth: Shield Breaker could be useful but I feel that the very short range combined with the slow mobility of Kirby makes this move way too difficult to use against Marth who has such superior range and mobility. I think having a copy ability being particularly useful here would be very fair for this match.

10. Zelda: I feel that this should be a bit better.

11. Wario: The damage from this ability that Kirby gets is too good. I feel it should be lowered in half at the least.

12. Metaknight: Kirby should definitely get something significant for getting his power. I can't imagine this MU being even or in Kirby's favor at all. However, I do think that the current power gained should be changed.

Also to help LD50 with some of his: Kirby PK Flash can now go way below the stage and it has less ending lag. Pit arrows fire faster as well.

 

[Thor]

or anything but rollout.

Agreed. Give him Rest.

 

[Rizner]

Zelda's is from brawl, so you can't approach and land cancel into something else like she can (also forgot to test of you can lovejump with it). I'd like that changed if possible. Might just require changing how the vertical momentum stops when going down?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Of course I understand Kirby hats are difficult for the team to edit in total because of the sheer number of them, so it may not be the biggest of priorities, but I'd be interested in seeing (at some point and not in the near future mind you) all of kirby's bad copy abilities (roll out, warlock punch, etc) being replaced with either drastically improved versions that possibly surpass the corresponding character's own version OR see the moves replaced by a better move from that character's moveset, like Rest for jiggs.

 

[9bit]

I like it, DrinkingFood. They already switched out the move for Mewtwo's hat. Here's some substitutions I'd like to see:

• Peach: side-B
• Ganondorf: down-B
• Jigglypuff: up-B, side-B, or down-B... haha, I guess really all of them sound fun
• Ness: side-B
• DDD: down-B
• Ike/Marth/Roy: side-B
• Snake: side-B

 

[Rick Rockmann]

So, Solar Beam is currently really janky and potentially super overpowered. Would it make more sense/be easier to implement correctly if Kirby stole Ivysaur's uncharged up-smash and up-air?

 

[Thor]

So, Solar Beam is currently really janky and potentially super overpowered. Would it make more sense/be easier to implement correctly if Kirby stole Ivysaur's uncharged up-smash and up-air?

Eh, I'd personally prefer they just fix solar beam/synthesis to work properly, except we only need to heal like 10% tops to charge solar beam and the hat is really hard to knock out of us (or less % than what Ivysaur needs, due to losing the hat upon death). The second option is to leave it as is (but that's kind of lame in my opinion, but free solarbeam isn't terrible and the hat does probably take a while to charge).

Alternatively, if they want to make the Ivysaur MU heavily in Kirby's favor (like, Kirby ***** Ivysaur), make the lag off swallow low enough so we can b-reverse the solarbeam out of swallow as a combo XD.

 

[Phan7om]

I like it, DrinkingFood. They already switched out the move for Mewtwo's hat. Here's some substitutions I'd like to see:

• Peach: side-B
• Ganondorf: down-B
• Jigglypuff: up-B, side-B, or down-B... haha, I guess really all of them sound fun
• Ness: side-B
• DDD: down-B
• Ike/Marth/Roy: side-B
• Snake: side-B

lol no

I personally think that Kirby should retain all of the Neutral-B copies but have them altered so that all of them are viable. Some changes I would like to see.

• Peach: Toad spores are a semi-spike
• Ganondorf: Warlock punch has less startup and breaks sheilds
• Yoshi: More range
• Ness: Ness heals less from PSI Magnet (about 5%)
• Ike: More range
• Falcon: Smash 64 FP
• DDD: Inhale has quicker startup and more range.

 

[Thor]

lol no

I personally think that Kirby should retain all of the Neutral-B copies but have them altered so that all of them are viable. Some changes I would like to see.

• Peach: Toad spores are a semi-spike
• Ganondorf: Warlock punch has less startup and breaks sheilds
• Yoshi: More range
• Ness: Ness heals less from PSI Magnet (about 5%)
• Ike: More range
• Falcon: Smash 64 FP
• DDD: Inhale has quicker startup and more range.

This confuses me because PSI Magnet is Ness's down+b, unless you mean a fully charged PK Flash heals 5% which is nonsensical. This is not Brawl- - Warlock Punch doesn't break shields (at best make it 0 on shield which is still weird...). I don't take issue with modding power-ups but ... not sure how to express fully what I don't like about the concept... I think the range boosts are fine but Smash 64 Falcon Punch is just silly. Maybe I just disagree with the suggestions you make.

Also, after rereading the post that was quoted, Snake's grenades are probably better than the missile, unless the missile got really good when I wasn't looking (or his new dart gun or whatever, and/or grenades got worse) - camping Snake with his own grenades is both amusing and funny to watch with them hurling explosives at each other.

 

[B.W.]

Kirby's abilities should just all be the Neutral-B but adjusted to match the character he got it from more appropriately.

Example being in Melee when Kirby copied Marth he had this super tiny butter knife Shield Breaker, where Marth's goes over his head covering a decent amount around him. Kirby's should cover the same amount around him, but it shouldn't be as big as Marth's. It should just be scaled to be appropriate to Kirby's size. P:M actually already does this with Marth's Shield Breaker, but other moves should be the same where applicable. Otherwise it should just match entirely and its usefulness should depend on whether or not it's good in that matchup.

It'd be stupid if Kirby got better versions of a character's move. Ask ZSS right now. She's pissed at him for having a way better stungun. Squirtle isn't too happy either.

 

[skellitorman]

Kirby's abilities should just all be the Neutral-B but adjusted to match the character he got it from more appropriately.

Example being in Melee when Kirby copied Marth he had this super tiny butter knife Shield Breaker, where Marth's goes over his head covering a decent amount around him. Kirby's should cover the same amount around him, but it shouldn't be as big as Marth's. It should just be scaled to be appropriate to Kirby's size. P:M actually already does this with Marth's Shield Breaker, but other moves should be the same where applicable. Otherwise it should just match entirely and its usefulness should depend on whether or not it's good in that matchup.

It'd be stupid if Kirby got better versions of a character's move. Ask ZSS right now. She's pissed at him for having a way better stungun. Squirtle isn't too happy either.

I don't agree. Having the usefulness depend on whether its good in that matchup or not is not a good idea, since copy is a perfect opportunity to help balance some of his MUs without buffing the character and making other MUs unbalanced.

Furthermore it's not like Kirby is guaranteed the ability like his opponent is. He has to really work for it, especially against certain characters, and he loses the ability upon losing his stock, meaning that he'll have to work for it again.

Also because of Kirby's properties he may not be able to utilize the ability that well compared to the opponent. Currently in the Fox MU which is probably heavily in Fox's favor; Fox can utilize the neutral B way better than Kirby would due to being faster and having a reflector. So not only would it be very difficult to get Fox's power, but it wouldn't be beneficial for him to use, thus leaving the MU heavily in Fox's favor.

Now imagine how different the MU would be if Kirby actually got a significant advantage to getting Fox's ability that can weaken one of Fox's advantages. It wouldn't make the MU 5:5 per se but it would probably make it better for Kirby rather than being a useless option. This buff would only be usable against Fox to help that specific MU, thus not changing his other MUs. I feel that that would be very fair.

 

[DJLO]

hey shell, question:

as it stands, some of kirbys copys are actually buffed versions of the characters he steals them from(falcos laser go extra low, diddy gun doesnt cause self damage)

are you going to be removing these buffs? it seems to me like a good lidea to leave them in, to reward you for going for the swallow. at the same time, some of the copies have no buffs, which makes the matchups for kirby weird.

so the buffs, will they stay?

 

[standardtoaster]

The laser isn't a buff. It fires that low normally, haha. The gun not causing self damage is an oversight on my part. The gun explosion also doesn't have a hitbox right now.

 

[DJLO]

The laser isn't a buff. It fires that low normally, haha. The gun not causing self damage is an oversight on my part. The gun explosion also doesn't have a hitbox right now.

ok cool, it must be his brawl version, because in melee fox and falco hats fire at the same height.

since falcos laser is in some respects "better" than fox's, having it go under links shield/be un-duckable seems like a buff to me(compared to actual falco, who has to short hop to make it go that low)

 

[MaxThunder]

just wanna add that pit's arrows seem ot do more damage over time or something like that... at least i've gotten it to do 8% sometimes...

 

[B.W.]

I'm confused by this "Falco's laser is lower" thing. Wtf are you saying?