Falco's Laser Trap (Vid)

[GimR]

Episode 5 - Falco's Laser Trap - 4/19/2011

 

[Schtizzel]

Nice find if you can do a Silent Laser perfectly. It isn't game breaking but it can help in some situations.
So thx GimR

 

[da K.I.D.]

you could have called it 'silent lazer info' or somethign like that.

also, do you know what the frame leniency on the slient laser is? like does the laser have to come out the frame before you land, or do you have like 3 frames before you land?

 

[GimR]

It actually comes out on the first frame of your landing animation

 

[Tommy_G]

I'd love to see players who don't aerial OoS you for trying lasers that close.
How many frames is it for Falco to go from standing to jumping and right before the laser comes out? 50-something?
Frame 0: Running
Frame 1: First frame of jump


Frame ?: Input B for only a silent laser.
Frame ?: Landing

 

[GimR]

Jump: frame 1

For doubles laser you have to shoot on frame 19

for a single laser you have to shoot on frame 35

the point is to mix them up so they want to OOS you, and then you punish the OOS

 

[-DR3W-]

Been doing this for a while.

But it's still good to share.

 

[Tommy_G]

And whats the frame where you land?

 

[GimR]

crap, I dunno, you could just look at Falco frame data to figure that out. You land on the exact same frame the laser comes out.

 

[Tommy_G]

35 frames before you shoot the laser + 10 frames before the laser comes out= 45 frames of being in someone's face with no kind of action.

Reaction speed is 10-15 frames

That's the main problem.

 

[GimR]

yeah, but people are afraid you're going to attack them or bait an attack oos from them so they're scared to attack. or they wait for you to hit their shield and up-b or Usmash or grab OOS


falco's d-air comes out in 4 or 5 frames so you can jump right up on their shield and wait until right before you hit the ground to punish their oos actions with it.

 

[Trott]

GIMR is awesome

 

[senato]

Thanks .

 

[Keitaro]

This is a good video. I didn't know a grab was guaranteed even when the laser is blocked. Just gotta make sure my lasers aren't stale.

 

[Micklem]

How much does it need to be staled for this to stop working?

 

[GimR]

I'm pretty sure it's after 1 laser :/ but, you gotta remember that after it's stale, the only way your opponent can avoid the grab is by spot dodging. If he tries anything else he'll be grabbed.

Most people try to grab anyways, lol

 

[teluoborg]

yeah, but people are afraid you're going to attack them or bait an attack oos from them so they're scared to attack. or they wait for you to hit their shield and up-b or Usmash or grab OOS

Or they just can be MK and up B/Dsmash/Nair their way out of this dilemna.

Joking aside it's nice to have the precise frame data of this, but I doubt anybody knowing the matchup will shield when they see a Falco SHing at mid/close range.

 

[I Dair You]

All im getting from this is that a nonstale silent laser has frame advantage over shield. This is a nice find I guess, but not very applicable considering how often Falco uses his lasers. However, the frame advantage of silent lasers over normal lasers is enough of a reason for Falcos to perfect their short hop silent laser.

 

[p8nted]

This is old. Like really old.

It's rarely useful because, like Tommy_G said, you're in their face for way longer than acceptable. Players are used to lasering falcos and they will punish you 99.9% of the time you try this. Meta Knight's specifically have nothing to fear because they can punish this 100% of the time with up-b or any ariel attack oos when you are above them like that. Even if you were going for a mix-up, MK can just nair your bair. Don't forget that opponents can also powershield the laser and ruin everything. If they do powershield, you end up right in front of them with frame disadvantage.

Most MK's will up-b or utilt before falco even gets into a position to dair or bair. MK isn't the only problem either. Imagine getting that close to snake where your only options are to bair, laser, or air-dodge into the stage right next to him. It's a high risk, low reward situation every time.

Momentum changing with the first laser is cool but they have too much time to react. The best way to do it (if you really must do it) is to single laser. This at least leaves them guessing while you're floating above them helplessly.

In terms of strictly theory it's not all that useful.

 

[DEHF]

Good video, keep up the good work GIMR :D

 

[GimR]

This is old. Like really old.

It's rarely useful because, like Tommy_G said, you're in their face for way longer than acceptable. Players are used to lasering falcos and they will punish you 99.9% of the time you try this. Meta Knight's specifically have nothing to fear because they can punish this 100% of the time with up-b or any ariel attack oos when you are above them like that. Even if you were going for a mix-up, MK can just nair your bair. Don't forget that opponents can also powershield the laser and ruin everything. If they do powershield, you end up right in front of them with frame disadvantage.

Most MK's will up-b or utilt before falco even gets into a position to dair or bair. MK isn't the only problem either. Imagine getting that close to snake where your only options are to bair, laser, or air-dodge into the stage right next to him. It's a high risk, low reward situation every time.

Momentum changing with the first laser is cool but they have too much time to react. The best way to do it (if you really must do it) is to single laser. This at least leaves them guessing while you're floating above them helplessly.

In terms of strictly theory it's not all that useful.

I'm gonna quote dr. peepee right now "You'd be surprised what works that shouldn't"

Yes, in theory, mk could up-B you, or attack oos shield before you land this, but in reality he's going to wait for you to either use and areal on his shield or land in front of him and then grab you. Once he sees what you did he's giong to be afraid to stay in shield. Now it's time for you to bait his oos attacks and punish them.

 

[senato]

I'm gonna quote dr. peepee right now "You'd be surprised what works that shouldn't"

Yes, in theory, mk could up-B you, or attack oos shield before you land this, but in reality he's going to wait for you to either use and areal on his shield or land in front of him and then grab you. Once he sees what you did he's giong to be afraid to stay in shield. Now it's time for you to bait his oos attacks and punish them.

And Marth could Bup?

 

[GimR]

And Marth could Bup?

pause at the very end of the video

 

[BleachigoZX]

Random "tip:" If you fullhop fair and try to buffer a laser out of it, it will always be a silent laser.

I'm not saying this fair thing is gonna change the metagame, but its just a small thing people might not know.

 

[p8nted]

Random "tip:" If you fullhop fair and try to buffer a laser out of it, it will always be a silent laser.

I'm not saying this fair thing is gonna change the metagame, but its just a small thing people might not know.

That's actually really cool. Didn't know that.

As for the laser trap, I'm just saying that, in theory, it's not that good. But it does give falco one more option and options are always good.

Don't forget that grab isn't the only thing that falco can do. If they don't shield the laser you can get a guaranteed utilt which kills MK around 150. Silent laser -> Jab -> usmash is one of my favorites even though it's not guaranteed.

 

[swordsaint]

That's actually really cool. Didn't know that.

As for the laser trap, I'm just saying that, in theory, it's not that good. But it does give falco one more option and options are always good.

Don't forget that grab isn't the only thing that falco can do. If they don't shield the laser you can get a guaranteed utilt which kills MK around 150. Silent laser -> Jab -> usmash is one of my favorites even though it's not guaranteed.

its not guaranteed but cna be fairly easy to land as you can usualyl telll when someones gonna shield out the jab.

 

[p8nted]

its not guaranteed but cna be fairly easy to land as you can usualyl telll when someones gonna shield out the jab.

Exactly. If they shield the laser, the jab will always hit their shield because of the frame advantage silent laser gives you. However, when you jab someone's shield they almost always seem to try and punish it with something. If they drop their shield, the usmash will hit before their move. If they try an ariel oos, falco's usmash will usually have priority over them. The only problem is when certain characters up-b oos (or reverse up-b oos).

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

GIMR, was the hitstun 9 frames or does that change for each character?

 

[GimR]

GIMR, was the hitstun 9 frames or does that change for each character?

Yeah I think so. I forgot to put that heavy characters would have less stun. :/

 

[Choice]

i think you guys gotta realize your opponent shouldn't be able to know what it is you're going for when you're going for it. i mean i get away with empty hop to grab when people are shielding because they're waiting for something to hit their shield or etc. its not like all of a sudden this is the only approach we should use because we get a grab if it all plays out right, just mix it into your gameplay as you do anything else.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Yeah I think so. I forgot to put that heavy characters would have less stun. :/

Someone in our frame data thread mentioned about silent lasers. It makes more sense that the hitstun varies from character to character.

i mean i get away with empty hop to grab when people are shielding because they're waiting for something to hit their shield or etc.

lol Then you have people who have the reactions to flee if you get behind them since they expected you to hit shield in a way that they can punish.