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Falco Matchup Thread #27: Zero Suit Samus
- Thread starter -DR3W-
- Start date
Zwei Striker
Smash Apprentice
Well, this matchup I have some experience, but not that much really. What I can tell you is that this battle is divided into 2 stages:
1) ZSSs Armor pieces are still there.
2) ZSSs Armor pieces aren't in play anymore.
When they're still in play, you should rely only in lasers,spotdodge and reflector. Maybe grab. Your priority is racking damage and reflecting the suitpieces. If one is near you, grab it and throw it offstage, don't try and throw it against her, she'll just shield it and het a hold of it again. Those things really hit hard, and if Zss gets a hit, most of them will combo you, and the pieces can kill at not so high%. Also, they add a lot into her mobility.
Once the pieces are away, the matchup flows way differently. It's a really easy matchup for sure once the pieces are out, considering this:
-Lasers give amazing stun against her, and screw her air approaches terribly. Actually, they screw her up on everything. Abuse them, they really take her down. Also, they allow you real combos.
-We can chain grab her (the chaingrab is dashing, not walking) 4 times + follow up, iirc.
-We can reflect her stun-laser thingy, stuning her and allowing for follow ups or kills.
-We can gimp her easily with bair when she goes for the ledge since her tethers have a set and long trayectory back to the stage.
-Killing is easy, just gimp her or laser>upsmash, it works wonders. Or you can camp her and rack lots of damage then Bair.
-Her down-b is really easy to spike, but she can spike you too, so it's a high risk-high reward situation.
-Did I mention lasers rock this matchup?
-Because they do.
-Really.
On the beware side of the matchup:
-She has amazing range and disjoint, don't get on midrange combat against her.
-Her jab is faster than ours.
-She can Dsmash string us up to like 50%.
-She can double Dsmash> bair for the kill... so very nasty.
-She can also kill with side-b,uair.
-If you get stunned by her laser, expect grab>follow up. Most Zss can really get a lot of damage from this.
-She can crawl under reflector and lasers to approach, watch out for that.
-Her Dash attack can string into stuff, and iirc it truecomboes into jab and utilt.
-Her Up-b can get some nasty stuff going on if you don't tech, like dsmash, which will combo you.
- She can take us out of phantasm easily, so don't spam it.
I would call this a +2 or 65:35 Falcos favor.
1) ZSSs Armor pieces are still there.
2) ZSSs Armor pieces aren't in play anymore.
When they're still in play, you should rely only in lasers,spotdodge and reflector. Maybe grab. Your priority is racking damage and reflecting the suitpieces. If one is near you, grab it and throw it offstage, don't try and throw it against her, she'll just shield it and het a hold of it again. Those things really hit hard, and if Zss gets a hit, most of them will combo you, and the pieces can kill at not so high%. Also, they add a lot into her mobility.
Once the pieces are away, the matchup flows way differently. It's a really easy matchup for sure once the pieces are out, considering this:
-Lasers give amazing stun against her, and screw her air approaches terribly. Actually, they screw her up on everything. Abuse them, they really take her down. Also, they allow you real combos.
-We can chain grab her (the chaingrab is dashing, not walking) 4 times + follow up, iirc.
-We can reflect her stun-laser thingy, stuning her and allowing for follow ups or kills.
-We can gimp her easily with bair when she goes for the ledge since her tethers have a set and long trayectory back to the stage.
-Killing is easy, just gimp her or laser>upsmash, it works wonders. Or you can camp her and rack lots of damage then Bair.
-Her down-b is really easy to spike, but she can spike you too, so it's a high risk-high reward situation.
-Did I mention lasers rock this matchup?
-Because they do.
-Really.
On the beware side of the matchup:
-She has amazing range and disjoint, don't get on midrange combat against her.
-Her jab is faster than ours.
-She can Dsmash string us up to like 50%.
-She can double Dsmash> bair for the kill... so very nasty.
-She can also kill with side-b,uair.
-If you get stunned by her laser, expect grab>follow up. Most Zss can really get a lot of damage from this.
-She can crawl under reflector and lasers to approach, watch out for that.
-Her Dash attack can string into stuff, and iirc it truecomboes into jab and utilt.
-Her Up-b can get some nasty stuff going on if you don't tech, like dsmash, which will combo you.
- She can take us out of phantasm easily, so don't spam it.
I would call this a +2 or 65:35 Falcos favor.
1PokeMastr
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2009
- Messages
- 2,251
Now this is a Match I have quite a bit of experience in.
At the start, they're going to have a projectile, and they're going to try and keep them on stage as long as possible for the most amount of stage control, now this IS limited by our reflector, but, they can bait it, and punish us by glide tossing forwards and throwing up/ down, then punish us for it, and we can reflect on reaction, which is what I do, anyway, as these CAN help you, they also limit your options, you should make it your top priority to get the pieces off stage as soon as possible, they really can hurt us if we get ourself knocked off stage, anyway, make it your top priority to get them off stage, ZSS without her armour pieces makes it so much easier for Falco in this Mu.
After you have them offstage, play careful and camp her, make sure to go full short hop height laser + Silent laser as your short hop double laser, it really makes it difficult for her to appraoch us this way.
They'll shoot their stunner and use her Side B to get in, and they'll try to punish us for trying to Shield/ Reflect them, which is why I just jump over them, or spot dodge ( They can punish this too ).
Now as for our CG, we get 6 grabs from 0%, the CG has to be a buffered dash grab, or frame perfect walking grab. after that, we get a follow up of our choice. ( Nair 9 - 12 % ), Fair ( 12% ), Dair ( 13% ), Hyphen Smash ( 14% ) , Reflector ( 4% ) , F-Tilt angled up ( 9% ).
End it one grab early and you can get a stutter step Fsmash ( 16% ) or the Gatling Combo ( 25% ).
Now, choose the follow up that you would like and think of what situation it would put her in the assess your options, and follow ups after the initial follow up.
She has a Dsmash lock on to 87% from 0, implying we don't Di it. If we do Di it ( Up and Away/ Towards her [ Your Pick ] ) we get out around 30 - 43%. So, learn to Di it, or you're going to take a large chunk of damage.
She also has an F-Throw CG on us ( About 3 Grabs ), and she has to be perfect with it, if not, we can buffer spot dodge, and Punish her with a Partially charged Smash of your Choice.
I'll edit this with the rest later, I'm currently at school writing this since I finished my work early, there's 5 minutes left.
Have any questions you'd like to ask me ? Feel Free to Pm me.
At the start, they're going to have a projectile, and they're going to try and keep them on stage as long as possible for the most amount of stage control, now this IS limited by our reflector, but, they can bait it, and punish us by glide tossing forwards and throwing up/ down, then punish us for it, and we can reflect on reaction, which is what I do, anyway, as these CAN help you, they also limit your options, you should make it your top priority to get the pieces off stage as soon as possible, they really can hurt us if we get ourself knocked off stage, anyway, make it your top priority to get them off stage, ZSS without her armour pieces makes it so much easier for Falco in this Mu.
After you have them offstage, play careful and camp her, make sure to go full short hop height laser + Silent laser as your short hop double laser, it really makes it difficult for her to appraoch us this way.
They'll shoot their stunner and use her Side B to get in, and they'll try to punish us for trying to Shield/ Reflect them, which is why I just jump over them, or spot dodge ( They can punish this too ).
Now as for our CG, we get 6 grabs from 0%, the CG has to be a buffered dash grab, or frame perfect walking grab. after that, we get a follow up of our choice. ( Nair 9 - 12 % ), Fair ( 12% ), Dair ( 13% ), Hyphen Smash ( 14% ) , Reflector ( 4% ) , F-Tilt angled up ( 9% ).
End it one grab early and you can get a stutter step Fsmash ( 16% ) or the Gatling Combo ( 25% ).
Now, choose the follow up that you would like and think of what situation it would put her in the assess your options, and follow ups after the initial follow up.
She has a Dsmash lock on to 87% from 0, implying we don't Di it. If we do Di it ( Up and Away/ Towards her [ Your Pick ] ) we get out around 30 - 43%. So, learn to Di it, or you're going to take a large chunk of damage.
She also has an F-Throw CG on us ( About 3 Grabs ), and she has to be perfect with it, if not, we can buffer spot dodge, and Punish her with a Partially charged Smash of your Choice.
I'll edit this with the rest later, I'm currently at school writing this since I finished my work early, there's 5 minutes left.
Have any questions you'd like to ask me ? Feel Free to Pm me.
The game actually registers 1-2 more frames of hitstun when Zero Suit gets hit by a laser. It's more than every other character and it really does stop her approach cold when she's hit with one. It also makes follow-ups easier.
Her jab is faster than ours, but you can mash out a jab and hit ZSS before the third hit of her jab combo. She can hit you before the third hit of our jab combo with a jab as well, but ours does more damage. Note that she can perfect shield and uptilt the first jab if she tries to.
This match-up is one you'll want to play a few times before betting money on it. You need to get used to seeing and reacting to the Side B. It's an amazing spacing tool when you don't know the timing and deadspot on it. You can avoid it on reaction though since the start up lasts half a year.
Once you get her offstage, recognize the options she has. Double jump, DownB, UpB, and aerials/SideB to get you out of the way. Do not **** with the attack on her down B, but you can Bair the hell out of one you read and react to before the hitbox arrives. In fact, you can Bair the hell out of Zamus's recovery in general.
Jabs, Grabs, Tilts, Lasers. All basic Falco ****. Just keep her from getting started.
60-40 Flacko. Zamus's worst match-up, IIRC.
More later if I can make myself do it.
Her jab is faster than ours, but you can mash out a jab and hit ZSS before the third hit of her jab combo. She can hit you before the third hit of our jab combo with a jab as well, but ours does more damage. Note that she can perfect shield and uptilt the first jab if she tries to.
This match-up is one you'll want to play a few times before betting money on it. You need to get used to seeing and reacting to the Side B. It's an amazing spacing tool when you don't know the timing and deadspot on it. You can avoid it on reaction though since the start up lasts half a year.
Once you get her offstage, recognize the options she has. Double jump, DownB, UpB, and aerials/SideB to get you out of the way. Do not **** with the attack on her down B, but you can Bair the hell out of one you read and react to before the hitbox arrives. In fact, you can Bair the hell out of Zamus's recovery in general.
Jabs, Grabs, Tilts, Lasers. All basic Falco ****. Just keep her from getting started.
60-40 Flacko. Zamus's worst match-up, IIRC.
More later if I can make myself do it.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Eh...not really. I mean, Falco definitely wins by quite a bit and is her worst MU, but he's not necessarily at hard-counter status or anything. And if you don't have adequate ZSS experience you're probably screwed, since ZSS is such a weird character. 'Easy', but not 'really easy'.
They're good, but you overrate them. ZSS can crawl under them, which works well considering she has a great dtilt (which has good range). And don't try to dair/usmash her while she's crawling, she can shield-->utilt.
Watch out for her dtilt and utilt in general.
And there's also running powershield. Jumping over doesn't work in my experience, though.
I believe Poke corrected this already.
You can, but it's probably not going to happen very often.
Completely wrong. If you face a good ZSS you'll almost never edgeguard her, since Falco isn't exactly the best at edgeguarding. ZSS has one of the best recoveries in the game.
Laser-->usmash is good. Usmash is probably your best kill option, since ZSS doesn't live too long vertically.
It won't be easy to spike if it has been used properly.
Down-b is invincible for frames 1-12.
On frame 19, she can footstool (we don't even need to time it, we can just hold up/x/y/whatever our jump button is)
Thus, we have 6 frames during which we're vulnerable, and since ZSSs will almost never down-b when you're above us....yeah...you're not spiking us
Poke corrected this.
At lower percents she can also dsmash x2> fair (fair does 17%)
At higher percents she can dsmash x3 > uair (lots of damage)
Fair is even stronger than bair, and nair can kill if she's edgeguarding with it. Fsmash will also kill if spaced properly (will only be done out of dsmash)
Oh, nair and fsmash never stale :D
So yeah, her kill moves are bair, uair, side-b, fair, and (kinda) fsmash and nair.
I'm pretty sure she can't crawl under reflector
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pItF4Sa5NHY
At around 40%, she can dash attack lock. During these percents, all 3 of her tilts are guaranteed (utilt will be used most often since it does the most)
So if you get hit by a dash attack at DAL percents, expect 3-4 dash attacks across the stage into an utilt. This probably does like...25%?
Under DAL percents, it'll just be DA>utilt.
Above, she'll only get in 2-3 DAs at once
Uh....no need to mash. ZSS' jab3 doesn't connect on anyone that's grounded, except for like 6 or so characters. If the ZSS is trying to do the entire jab combo, just hold shield. You'll powershield the 3rd hit, and then you can punish with grab. Maybe usmash but I don't think it's guaranteed.
Anyway, a good ZSS won't do the entire jab combo unless you're in the air, in which case you can't do anything.
If you're grounded, they'll either never jab, or they'll do jab1>run away/dtilt/shield. Pretty sure dtilt can be shielded and punished.
I mentioned this already.
You'll probably never get to edgeguard a good ZSS, you're probably better off trying to laser her when she's offstage, then punishing the airdodge if she airdodges through them.
You have to be careful when using phantasm to recover. If you go for the ledge, dsmash-->footstool is a guaranteed death given that you don't have your double jump.
Although I believe if you're on a stage with a sloped edge (BF, SV, etc) you can survive IF you reverse the upB. That is, if when Falco is 'charging' the upB, he's facing AWAY from the stage, then do it upward into the slope, and hold toward the stage once you start falling. I don't know if this is confirmed though.
If you go for right above the ledge (at her height), she can jab-->dsmash-->footstool.
If you get hit by utilt by ZSS when you're at very low percents, you can actually dair her before the animation ends.
However, after a certain percent (like 10 or 15), the dair won't hit her in time, so if you try to dair they can shield-->utilt again.
If you get dtilted at lower percents, DON'T airdodge into her. ZSSs often dtilt-->charge dsmash and wait for airdodge-->hit with dsmash.
I wrote a very in-depth post about this MU in this thread
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312217
It's from the ZSS' point of view, so you'll know what to look out for, and what we're looking out for.
Zwei Striker
Smash Apprentice
Ok, thanks for the corrections :3 but there're just a few things to say:
- Zss can crawl under lasers. We can see that and try to hit her. But usmash or dair? No. A good falco would do a well spaced ftilt angled down or jab. Or even grab.
- She might have a nice jump and down b to aid her recovery, but in the end, both her tethers are easy enough to gimp with a bair.
- You don't need to use side b under us for us to spike it, it's actually safer to jump>dair someone above us.
- Yes, Zss CAN crawl under reflector.
Again, thnx for the corrections and link to the post :3
- Zss can crawl under lasers. We can see that and try to hit her. But usmash or dair? No. A good falco would do a well spaced ftilt angled down or jab. Or even grab.
- She might have a nice jump and down b to aid her recovery, but in the end, both her tethers are easy enough to gimp with a bair.
- You don't need to use side b under us for us to spike it, it's actually safer to jump>dair someone above us.
- Yes, Zss CAN crawl under reflector.
Again, thnx for the corrections and link to the post :3
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
I'm beginning to think that you don't play any good ZSSs, cause even Ally's Falco didn't gimp me and I'm new to the scene, but I'll break down her recovery for you pretty quickly.
Her tether distance is huge. She can tether from very far away and retract it to the edge (thus gaining invincibility) rather quickly.
If you try to edge hog, we can simply jump onto the stage, and airdodge any bair/dair you throw at us.
If we can't make it with just a jump and you try to edgehog, we can footstool off you from our downB even if you're grabbing the edge and you're invincible.
Also, we're not going to throw out a downB if we don't need to. We either save it for footstool recovery or use it as a reaction for when you DO throw out a bair/dair.
I know it might seem hard for you to wrap your head around since you're just reading an explanation and not really experiencing it first-hand, but trust me. When ZSS' recovery is used correctly, the only character with a good chance of gimping her is MK...maybe Pikachu, Marth....yeah that's it.
Her tether distance is huge. She can tether from very far away and retract it to the edge (thus gaining invincibility) rather quickly.
If you try to edge hog, we can simply jump onto the stage, and airdodge any bair/dair you throw at us.
If we can't make it with just a jump and you try to edgehog, we can footstool off you from our downB even if you're grabbing the edge and you're invincible.
Also, we're not going to throw out a downB if we don't need to. We either save it for footstool recovery or use it as a reaction for when you DO throw out a bair/dair.
I know it might seem hard for you to wrap your head around since you're just reading an explanation and not really experiencing it first-hand, but trust me. When ZSS' recovery is used correctly, the only character with a good chance of gimping her is MK...maybe Pikachu, Marth....yeah that's it.
Dakpo
Smash Lord
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Everyone says this MU is really bad for ZSS but all I see is top ZSS players beating (or having relatively close sets with) Falco over and over again.
You say this, and yet the top ZSS has a losing record vs the top Falco (Riddle vs DEHF is 1-2 in DEHF's favor).
So, now of course NR is going to molest any Falco that isn't DEHF since... well, no Falco is even close to DEHF's level and NR managed to take a set off him.
So, you're right- all you see are top ZSS players beating non-top-level-Falco-players. Cool. All I see is that top level Falco has a *slight* winning record vs top level ZSS.
/talked to NR about this over the weekend.
It's probably like -2 for ZSS which is far from unwinnable. And let me check real quick *looks at the BBR MU Chart*
Yup, that's what the chart says! That's what theory says too. And that's what top level play says.
You're arguing on top level players vs non-top level players and trying to get the result that is already there >_>
So, now of course NR is going to molest any Falco that isn't DEHF since... well, no Falco is even close to DEHF's level and NR managed to take a set off him.
So, you're right- all you see are top ZSS players beating non-top-level-Falco-players. Cool. All I see is that top level Falco has a *slight* winning record vs top level ZSS.
/talked to NR about this over the weekend.
It's probably like -2 for ZSS which is far from unwinnable. And let me check real quick *looks at the BBR MU Chart*
Yup, that's what the chart says! That's what theory says too. And that's what top level play says.
You're arguing on top level players vs non-top level players and trying to get the result that is already there >_>
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
When did NR face DEHF? I'd like to see these matches
Kasper!
Smash Lord
I only remember nick riddle beating larry at mlg
MARLX
Smash Journeyman
The matches were not recorded.
Dakpo
Smash Lord
bwahaha there are multiple ways to bait falco into this. I have made this work against some really skilled players too.
Also not to bad talk Nick Riddle or anything, but i heard the MLG that that happened had awfully laggy TVs and DEHF was having a hard time even Double Short hop Lazering. plus Norfair was legal...so i kinda think it was a one time thing. Of course i wasn't there when it happened. So if all that stuff is not true then G E T R A P E D F AL C O!!! G O N. R.
Is it just me or does reflector > shield has no vulnerability frames ?
Because I personnally have no problem at alla against ZSS's item game. You know, reflect, grab and Dtoss them. You know have lingering traps.
Because I personnally have no problem at alla against ZSS's item game. You know, reflect, grab and Dtoss them. You know have lingering traps.
GG you just won the right to get hit by an invincible ledgehopped Dair :I
Host Change
Smash Ace
I didn't follow Smash when it was on the pro circuit, but I'm pretty sure MLG uses a gaming monitor on main stage pretty similar to a Samsung gaming monitor that has about 3 ms of lag. Granted, that's my knowledge of their setup for Halo and CoD now anyway. I would assume Smash being a frame specific game wouldn't be any different.
Zwei Striker
Smash Apprentice
Reflector > Shield has 2 vuelnerable frames iirc. Not that much if you ask me. Source: Someone mentioned it in the pit vs falco matchup discussion.
Dakpo
Smash Lord
lol hardly
Hi, my name is Tommy_G. I helped Nick Riddle beat Larry by teaching him the matchup. You all can hate on me now.
ZSS can gimp Falco pretty easily so don't do anything stupid to put you in the position for it.
Watch for pivot grabs.
Watch for utilt and jab.
Shield a LOT.
Laser only full screen.
ZSS can uair you for ending the cg with a spike off stage before you land on the stage again if the meteor cancel is timed right.
Triple jab will be uaired.
Pelca
Smash Journeyman
remember your in it to win! not to get hard! ZSS may have a C cup but dont let that distract you! hit her like chris brown hit rhiana!!!! then she will loose!