Falco Matchup #26: Mr. Game & Watch

[-DR3W-]

Falco v. Mr. Game & Watch

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

This MU is dull. Really freaking dull.

6-4 Falco. Write-up when I can write-up.

 

[Zwei Striker]

So, I don't have a lot of experience in this matchup, but still have a little. Here's what I have to say:
- 4 grabs + follow up, walking.
- He can bucket lasers, yeah, but if he buckets stall lasers (any laser but the firsts), he can't kill with the bucket until like 90%-100%, so I personally never worry about him filling that thing and keep lasering (at least during the first stock).
- Tech his dthrow forward, then roll farther/jab to save your stock.
- Reflector is cool, mostly when retreating jump>reflector.
- Ftilt not so much.
- Bair is good enough.
- Shielding>grabing on pretty much everything works for me.
- Take care when recovering with phantasm, he can stop us with dtilt (at least that's what the G&W I play uses to stop it, though I suspect that any of his grounded moves work)
- When offstage, he can up b our recovery then punish the hell out of us, so be really careful of when do you phantasm (or firebird).
- He kills early, and if you don't tech his dthrow, he can dsmash before you can do anything.

Is this gonna end like the Sheik matchup thread, really?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I have not played G&W for awhile, so not totally sure if the match-up has changed a whole lot nor am I certain on some stuff.

You can deal with the bucket in a couple of ways.
-Camp without any regard to the bucket and recognize you give G&W a free weapon that will deal 25% if it hits or do a huge chuck of damage to your shield. But, if he gets the whole thing, he's free for camping. This will also prevent him from being able to bucket brake (I think). Unsure on killing percent if hit by it.
-Or you can try adding in more short hops and try to bait it out of G&W every so often. Mostly depends upon how G&W reacts to lasers.

Bair is a good move for G&W, but it's also really bad if you can SDI it. There are extra freeze frames for the move giving you more time to SDI it. And there is a landing lag hitbox which you should be aware of as well.

Dthrow -> dsmash does not work even if you miss a tech. You can roll away and not get hit by a dsmash. Given that, I have never thought of simply trying to attack or stand up directly after dthrow to see if those work. I assume they would with enough invincibility. Either way, G&W can do other moves though for missing a tech like jab or dtilt and they will hit before you do anything else. You can DI the Dthrow to a particular side of G&W. Teching shouldn't be an issue though since you can buffer techs. After that its a normal tech chase from G&W.

Any move hits falco out of phantasm. Generally, the longer a hitbox is out and the bigger it is, the easier it is to hit Falco out of it. G&W has a lot of lingering hitboxes like Fsmash, Ftilt, Nair, Dtilt. If you a really bad habit of always using phantasm onto the stage as a main recovery, G&W should break that habit pretty quick lol Which you shouldn't be doing against other characters anyway.

As far as strategy goes, its similar to playing other characters without projectiles. Falco has a projectile that can be used to break up G&Ws spacing allowing you to get in on his disjoint moveset. Use of jabs, ftilt, dash attack (to punish laggy moves G&W has), and grabs are the staple of Falco's moveset typically.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Oh god, I forgot this thread existed. Also of note, he can use oil panic to escape the chaingrab if he has it charged.

His DThrow tech chase has no true follow-ups IIRC. You have to react badly on wake-up for him to get you assuming you hit the tech and have enough room to roll away.

Hopefully I don't forget to finish here.

 

[Zwei Striker]

According to the G&W boards, if we don't tech, dsmash hits before we can roll. And from my experience we get hit by usmash if we tech to his back.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Opps, yeah, your right. Need to tech or get hit by dsmash. Either way, that's why its a tech chase. G&W has to read the tech right right in order to get a punish in and you have three options, roll in two directions or in place. Mixing up either can prevent a punish.

Still, golden rule, "Don't get hit"

 

[Twinster]

To anyone who doesn't know, his d-air has 2 hits so be ready to shield both. I forget all the time. His d-air is somewhat similar to pika's. Also, if you are on the ledge, G&W can dash attack and stage spike you. BE CAREFUL.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Sheik Mu isn't that hard. F-Tilt Lock goes to 60% and starts at 30%.
Or doesn't happen at all. SDi Down and Power Shield, grab. Works a lot for me.
If I don't SDi down, I SDi up and Dair as it takes longer for the Hit box to hit us, the Dair is guaranteed at 50 - 60%.

Anyway, for the CG on GaW it goes 0 - 43% ( 6, but, better to try for 5[ Easier Follow up timings + a Better Follow up you wouldn't expect), you can Dash Grab for the first 3. You can Boost Pivot for all 5. If you don't want to take the risk. Walk CG for all, you have the Follow ups of.. FiTilt ( Up ), Hyphen Smash, Nair, Dair, Bair, Uair, as well as a Stutter Step F-Smash, ( We have a 22 frame advantage when they're not in tumble animation). Also. If Marth can't Up B us out of the CG. GaW can't Oil Panick out. Marth has invincible frames 1-5 and hits on frame 6. GaW hits on Frame 2 and is Invincible 1 - 8, I think, maybe less.
Don't say 'GaW hits before Marth' Invincible on Frames 1-5.. we can Grab before his Up B even starts. Hence, GaW can't get out with Down B.

As for Twinster, thanks for the reminder, but, I've known that Since Melee.

Thank you Xelode for finally saying something Intelligent.
EVERY Move in the game will beat, trade hits or Clash with Phantasm.
However. We can Phantasm again before hitting the ground if it's not a smash, or a Tilt that can Kill us.

If I recall.. Only Wifi GaW use D-Smash Out of D-Throw. Even if it hits us, with Di, we don't die from it until 145%.

For D-Throw, No Tech, we can Di away, or behind him, Making it harder to Punish us.

For D-Throw with Tech, we can Tech In Place, Tech Roll Away, Tech Roll behind. He can Dash Attack/ Grab all of these.
As well as.. Di the throw AND Tech. Making him have no way to punish us. Although this method is much more difficult, but, much much more rewarding.

Dash Attack at Ledge.. Di Up and not get stage spiked, I thought everyone knew this. Or, you can Tech it.
Or simply drop down from the Ledge and Punish his Dash Attack since you see it coming.

If he Multi Hit Jabs us. We can SDi away and PS.
Or SDi up and Dair, Nair, Bair.
Or SDi behind him and Grab/ Above Options + Usmash.

For Bair, if you get hit, SDi up and you can Dair, Nair, Bair Punish him. It's REALLY easy.
Or SDi up and confuse them on how you got out of it and Punish his landing with a Grab.

Nair.. Sdi'ing this thing is a Pain, haven't found a Sure Fire way to Punish it if I do Manage to SDi out.

And yes, His Up B can really mess up Phantasm/ Fire Bird. Due to its' wind Effect.

GaW can Crouch Under Lasers, but, you still don't have to approach, he CAN bucket the Lasers, then he looses his ability to Bucket Break and dies Early.
But he gains a Move that does 25% and doesn't kill us until around 100%.
But, we can just camp him.

When he recovers, he has his Up B.
We can Stage Spike him with Bair before he sweet spots the Ledge.

We can reflect his meat and get punished for it because reflecting it doesn't give us anything good in return.

That's what I'll for now, have any questions, you can ask me.

60:40 Falco's favour.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

lol I'm surprised you even bother to read any of my posts since I was given the impression you are really aggravated by what I type.

Funny to see that like 2 years ago there was a general consensus that G&W beat Falco 6:4 or went even. Now you see people saying the exact opposite.

 

[Zwei Striker]

What I meant when I mentiones the Sheik matchup is that, before I posted my not-that-helpful input, it had been 4 days without any post, and the only post just gave a number. If you check the Sheik matchup thread, it's just horrible; it's got one post from marlx, which is quite obviously a troll around these boards, and a post from xeylode, which was good enough. Still, you can't reduce a matchup into two posts, lest if one of those is from marlx.

 

[Twinster]

What I said was just a reminder not directed towards the more advanced players but for players that are new to the smash scene, similar to myself. You know, there are those players that forget that it hits twice, or that the dash attack stage spikes. Also I added.. "To anyone who doesn't know..."

 

[Gardex]

Just some few things I'd add:

If I recall.. Only Wifi GaW use D-Smash Out of D-Throw. Even if it hits us, with Di, we don't die from it until 145%.

An option is an option. G&W mains will go for dsmash if they see that you're not teching it. Wifi or not. Not sure why you brought that up. Also, if the dsmash isn't stale and you're close to the ledge, it's very likely that you'll die from it, so always hold towards the center of the stage to avoid getting hit towards the blastzones. (Although the G&W can anticipate this and punish accordingly)

GaW can Crouch Under Lasers, but, you still don't have to approach, he CAN bucket the Lasers, then he looses his ability to Bucket Break and dies Early.
But he gains a Move that does 25% and doesn't kill us until around 100%.
But, we can just camp him.

The laser camping isn't as big of a deal to G&W compared to other characters as he can crouch, walk a bit, shield, crouch and repeat. (Although you should still use your lasers all the time, as it puts the G&W in a bad position even if it's not doing any damage). Also, the G&W will most likely use the bucket before he gets in a scary %-range, seeing as a full laser-bucket isn't really worth the cost of bucket braking.

When he recovers, he has his Up B.
We can Stage Spike him with Bair before he sweet spots the Ledge.

You'll most likely get stage spiked yourself if you challenge the up b. Seriously, don't. It's a very safe recovery move. Try to grab the ledge and punish as he doesn't grab the ledge instead.

 

[teluoborg]

K prime proved it Gardex, GW's up B has 1 frame of vulnerability before being able to sweetspot the ledge. so what you do is use the invincilibity frames of the edgehog and a lingering hitbox (say Bair ?) that won't kill GW but that will push him farther and you'll still be able to get to the ledge first.

Also bucket has frame 1 invincibility when released.

Also² yeah maybe Dsmash doesn't kill until 145%, but maybe you really don't want to be sent that far at that trajectory offstage as Falco. Tech this throw and mixup your techs so you don't get Usmash'd.

 

[Gardex]

Not saying it isn't possible, but I don't think the risk/reward is worth it.
Although if you just grabbed the ledge and have invincibility frames like you said, then I guess you could try it, although it would most likely just hit G&W upwards and away from the edge, which would enable him to recover high instead.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Erm, no, you can walk off Bair the Up B.. it isn't hard, It stage spikes too, GaW has two frames you can hit him before he sweet spots the ledge. Up has 1-4 start up ( Can Be hit, Wind effect) 5 - 13 he's invincible. He sweet spots the ledge on frame 15.
His bucket has frames 1 - 6 of invincibility on release.

I brought it up for Wifi since people have trouble teching it on Wifi, and I've never seen GaW go for it offline, I've seen Vinnie do F-Smash. But, that's because it's a faster, better option than Dsmash if they miss a tech.

Thank you Zwei for confirming that.

And my death % was just incase you miss the tech. Learn context.
As for D-Throw.. Learn to Tech and Mix up your options.

And Xeylode, I only get annoyed when someone posts information that is wrong.

 

[Gardex]

Fsmash can only hit on one side, and iirc it can't hit as many characters that miss a tech compared to the dsmash.
So the only advantage it has is better killpower(Which is a big plus, it's a higher risk, higher reward, but I don't think it works on Falco)

And my death % was just incase you miss the tech. Learn context.

Uhh is this directed at me? I never disagreed with this. Obviously it's after a missed tech, it cannot hit otherwise.

 

[1PokeMastr]

F-Smash Does hit from behind, but, it doesn't have the flame effect, which reduces its knockback, as it's the non sweet spot, though, the options GaW has out of that throw can all lead to our death.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

55:45 for falco, without a doubt

experience? playing every ****ing gaw in europe ever with falco =/

 

[Zwei Striker]

@Brosuke, it would be so very helpful if you wrote some ideas instead of giving numbers. If you have experience, share some useful stuff so those of us who lack experience/have problems in this matchup can make something out of it.

 

[1PokeMastr]

55:45 for falco, without a doubt

experience? playing every ****ing gaw in europe ever with falco =/

This technically would count as a Necro post as it only tells us a ratio.
It doesn't tell us why, and posting 'Experience' as a reason to justify your ratio is making it worse.

Anyone can say '"*Insert Ratio*, Experience? Playing every *Insert Character, Insert Region*".

It doesn't help us AT ALL. Post something helpful, or don't post at all.

 

[Gardex]

55:45 for falco, without a doubt

experience? playing every ****ing gaw in europe ever with falco =/

Not me

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Every GaW that isn't scrubby as **** + a few scrubs

You're welcome <3

 

[SombreroJon]

Sorry for the noob question guys, but how the heck do you tech out of G&W's D-Throw? I swear this matchup wouldn't be anywhere near the 50-50 I always play it as if he couldn't just grab -> d-throw ->dsmash. All i've read is you can't roll out of it without teching (what does this even mean?), it just hits too soon.

Also, I believe the best strategy for lasers is to let him fill the bucket early, that thing luckily doesn't devastate falco, and it is easy to predict anyways. That said, it's too risky imo to let them get it when you're down to your last stock.

I would say 55-45 falco, G&W is no slouch.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Press L or R just before you hit the ground and a direction. You'll roll away fast enough.

 

[C.J.]

When G&W dthrows, you'll hear three beeps. When you hear the third beep, that's when you want to hit your shield button. Ez-pz

 

[Haze~]

hm don't think this is duable but can you double ps his fsmash? xD

Edit: i get the feeling theres no open frame to do the second ps from a shielddrop/ what about usmash oos?