Falco Matchup #24: Fox

[-DR3W-]

Falco v. Fox

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Needs a picture.

Spoiler

Actually, I have a few questions instead of something to actually contribute. Many things with Fox seem like they can be legitimate combos only escape able with SDI, but I'm not sure. An auto-cancel Dair for example. Given no SDI, does that combo into another moves like Dsmash, Usmash, Utilt, or grab. Sometimes I know I can get a powershield off depending upon which side of his Dair I ASDI towards.

An auto-cancel weak nair I'm pretty sure combos into certain moves as well. And the classic one, Dash Attack -> Utilt -> Utilt a couple of times.

 

[Zwei Striker]

Now, this matchup is the one I have more experience on

First for his combos:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228287

↑ Those are tested on mario, but take them as a reference, since the % for them to work on us aren't really that different.

Now, my input:

Fox outcamps us, this forces an approach from us.
SHDL isn't really that useful in this matchup, since we can't allow ourselves to get away from fox (also, if you don't space correctly, fox can easily upsmash you for a kill or racking %)
His utilt string is easily avoidable as long as you SDI- DI down and shield, then you get a grab.
Beware of his SH fair, it's a multihit move that can autocancell, rack damage and put you in a bad position. If you DI down, only the first kick will hit you, if you DI up, you'll get the full hit of it.
His Dthrow to FH fair isn't a true combo, yet it puts you in a horrible position where fox can just bait you.
His SH bair autocancells, and if it's well spaced, it's safe on shield, also, it can kill at higher percents.
His nair can't autocancel, but it can cambo into lots of stuff, look out for it
His shine will gimp you whenever you try to use firebird.
His uair can be SDI'ed down to avoid the hit that can kill you.
Don't ever stand under him, he'll shine to stop momentum if you attack, then FF dair.
If he ever predicts a phantasm onstage, he can dair us, then jab, giving us rco lag, then follow up with anything he wants (really nasty stuff)
He CAN shine > shine, so yeah, beware of that.
I'm pretty sure that, like wolf, he can shine you between jab 1 and 2, but the fox player i play against often never does that, so I ain'treally sure.

We can chaingrab him up to 6 times(43%) or 5+ follow up.
We can buffer grabs to chaingrab him in the same spot, so don't worry if you grab him near the edge.
Ftilt all day long baby.
Grab everything.
Dash attack's sourspot into utilt is really good, since at lower % you can follow up with another utilt or a nair, and at higher percents with a bair for a kill.
It's easy to edgeguard his firefox with a bair or a dair for the kill.
It great to dash grab him near the edge so you can force an air release, it then becomes a reading game for the gimp.
Laser him during his side-b, he can do it again, but you rack up a little %, and you force him to side-b (or up-b) again, any of which give him RCO lag, which can lead into nice stuff.
Nair is a decent enough approach at low %, since they expect you to go for a grab.

Stages:
Pretty much any stage that you are comfortable with he is comfortable on. Maybe he's more comfortable at yoshis, since fox doesn't use that much the IAP. Personally, I like SV against him, and avoid BF and YI everytime.

TLDR? Then read
In general, Fox is really quick, and is great punishing pretty much every attack on shield and every whiff. He can kill us as soon as 100% with attacks like usmash and uair. He racks damage quickly with SHTL and his dair to utilt/grab stuff, and him forcing an approach is really something unusual for falco. It's 50:50, or it could actually be in fox's favor 55:45

 

[MARLX]

This MU is 60-40 in Falco's favor.
Fox is very easy to cg use dair or gatling combo.
Fox can't punish Falco's jabs very well, he is easy to be locked.
Fox can be easily punished in his recovery, horizantal and vertical.
Fox can punish our shdl because of his running speed.
Fox has a reflecter that reflects our lasers back.
Fox is able to shine Falco out of his recovery.
Fox can out camp Falco.
Fox can kill anyone at a pretty low percent with up smash.
Edited: Fox's utilt string is easily avoidable as long as you SDI- down and shield, then you get a grab or jab off.
Avoid Foxes short hop fair, it's a multihit move that can auto cancel, and racks up a signifigant amount of damage (%). If you DI down, only the first kick will hit you, if you DI up, you'll get the full hit of it.
His Dthrow to FH fair isn't a true combo, it puts Falco in a situation to punish with nair.
His short hop bair auto cancels, and if it's well spaced, it's safe on shield, because if you are on a plarform Fox can edge slip mechanic Falco, also, it can kill at higher percents(110%).
His nair can't auto cancel, but it can cambo into lots of stuff, if you predict it, you can get off a free grab.

 

[M@v]

I have much experience in mu from both sides, playing as falco and fox. This mu is 55-45 Falco's favor, and its really only because the cg is so brutal on fox.

Needs a picture.

Spoiler

Actually, I have a few questions instead of something to actually contribute. Many things with Fox seem like they can be legitimate combos only escape able with SDI, but I'm not sure. An auto-cancel Dair for example. Given no SDI, does that combo into another moves like Dsmash, Usmash, Utilt, or grab.

I've never seen anyone sdi completely out of dair once it connected, but here's what dairs all about.

First off, you should note the more hits of dair you are hit with, the more hitstun you will be in, allowing more combos. In addition, the higher percent you are at, the higher the hitstun. Lastly, being hit in the air with down air and being dragged down to the ground with it results in more hitstun.

Downair can usually only combo into uptilt at low percent if fox lands behind you, that way uptilt's hit box comes out the fastest. You should be able to powershield it.

95% of foxes will go for down air to grab. It is by far the safest follow up to downair unless there's a trip or they are at extremely high percents. So, either spot dodge, or even try to jab if he down airs and connects. You don't have to worry about an upsmash combo until you are at higher percents, I'd say 150 or more. From the range upsmash can kill until then, so lets say 98%-150%, they might still go for it, and the only way to stop it is to power shield it, so be warned. In addition, downsmash combos much earlier, I'd say starting from around 110%.


Mindgames with dair:
Of course what I listed were the logical things to do. If the fox your playing is smart, he's going to read you or do an unusual followup. Once I spot or guess they are going to spot dodge after a downair, I do another short hop down air, which I affectionately call the double dip. If they read your spotdodge, this is the best punish because your back in the same situation with more damage.

At high percents, and this is the beauty of fox, I know your scared of my smashes, so I know your going to be shield happy. Expect smart foxes to go for grabs a lot a high percents knowing this to get easy damage.

TL:DR

-You get daired low percents, expect to powershield an uptilt or spotdodge a grab, then punish with a cg.

-Higher percents, Shield ASAP to protect from a dsmash or upsmash.

-Watch out for mixups. Fox has an amazing array of options out of a landed downair.

-Good fox's will take advantage of your fear of being upsmashed.


The best option to punish dair to shield it. Shielding dair equals a free grab.

An auto-cancel weak nair I'm pretty sure combos into certain moves as well. And the classic one, Dash Attack -> Utilt -> Utilt a couple of times.

Correct. The most dangerous thing weak nair combos into is upsmash. This is a true combo until slightly over 100%, so yes, you can die from it and there's nothing you can do.

Avoid his weak hit nairs at all costs if your in the 90-100% range.

You can powershield the first uptilt on the dash attack uptilt combo in a lot of cases. Going for a powershield is your best response.


See a trend here? Shield is your friend vs fox.


A couple tidbits to note while fighting fox.

-He can survive your cg-spike. If you see him go for the firefox before using his rising fair jump, ledgehog him. He only lives if he rising fairs first.

-Your cg is brutal on him since hes a fast faller. Gattling combo almost always connects at the end.

-Don't let him get the lead. A smart fox will turtle in his reflector if he does, and there's literally nothing you can do except approach. Fox is best when the opponent is approaching, and face it most falco's don't know what to do when they are out of their comfort zone of not being forced to approach. Fox is one of the few characters who can do it.

Thats enough for now I guess, any questions feel free to ask.

 

[BleachigoZX]

Don't stand directly under Fox and play it like the ditto.

Free.

 

[Bloodcross]

55-45 Falco. It's difficult for both players to camp each other so they're forced to play pretty aggressive. Fox really only outcamps us if we're trying to camp him imo. He can reflector cancel into anything. Once he reflects a laser, Fox can jump, roll, attack, spotdodge, and pretty much anything. They'll mostly jump though.

But really, play aggressive. Walking up and powershield lasers is a pretty good approach. You can try to reflect them, but overall it's pretty pointless. SH retreat the reflector if anything. But the range on Fox's lasers is very small meaning you would not likely see them hit him back. And if Fox is SHing all the time, you would only reflect like one laser at most. Reflector simply has too much lag that fox can capitalize on, so limit your reflector use or just develop the habit of not using it at all.

When fox is recovering, shoot a grounded laser to force them to firefox which is a free edgehog. Time the laser right when Fox is doing his rising Fair (Jab the Fair if Fox is under the stage rather than away from it) or Fox illusion at stage level (aiming to grab the edge or barely land on stage). The initial reaction to Fox players would be to Firefox anyway, so just look for it and read where it's going.

Dair is a pretty dangerous move to deal with. Just follow what M@v said. And as Bleachigo said, don't stand under him. Your not safe under a platform either, like on BF, so don't fool yourself into thinking you are. And if you plan on juggling, look for him to reflector stall or FF Dair your aerial approaches. Our Bair is really good vs Fox, but stay next to him rather than under him and you won't eat Dair and receive all of that hitstun.

You can SDI however you want; if it allows you to avoid Dair's follow ups then ok. Personally, I SDI down + away and either roll (time it) or Jab. If you don't receive alot of hitstun off Dair then you can Jab before Fox can do anything.

Uptilt to pivot grab is cool at low percents. I haven't tried it since 09 but I think it's still a viable tactic now lol.

I heard we can Fair the Firefox when we get the CG Spike (pretty sure it was Xonar who mentioned it). I'd like to know how to successfully pull it off.

 

[M@v]

I've never seen or attempted the fair offstage.

When I'm falco in this mu, I cg spike, the ledgehog so fire fox is forced to come on stage, free punish. I usually dair to bair to knock him back offstage again. If we are too far from the edge, I gattling combo at the end.

If I'm fox, even though I can survive the 0-death, I'm generally forces on a linear path. Fair to boost up then firefoxing diagonally to the stage.

What I want to know is if its possible down air fox out of his firefox. should be able to if you can fair him.

Don't go for the dair against his fair. Fox's fair has very good priority.

PS come to think of it the last time I played this MU was against bloodcross in friendlies from the fox side. lol.

 

[Zwei Striker]

I'm not sure about the fair, but you can dair fox out of his firefox. If you can fair, though, I find it a better option, since the timing to dair him out of firefoxx is really strict, and if you can fair, you could gimp him with a long-lasting attack that you don't need to time so hard and can gimp just as well. Can someone test it please?

 

[Chef Fox]

Fox can't punish Falco's jabs very well, he is easy to be locked.

That's the biggest lie I've ever heard forever.

if Falco hits our shield, we can:
- simply shield drop and jab him after the first and second jab (if he is in range!)
- usmash and nair OOS after the second jab
- grab after the second jab


if Falco hits us (without us shielding), we can:
- jab after the first and second jab (if he is in range!)
- shine (but shine´s range is too short most of the time)
- don´t know about grab ?

 

[-DR3W-]

MARLX has no ****ing idea what he's saying Chef Fox.

 

[Zwei Striker]

That's quite obvious, half of is post is just a copypaste of what I wrote XDD

One more thing, At low %, he can dair> shine> shine> dash attack (I think he can extend the shine part even longer)

 

[1PokeMastr]

Erm if Fox dairs.. SDi left or right and buffer a Jab/ Turnaround Jab, or Grab him.
He can't do much in his Landing Lag. Never SDi up on the Dair, it puts you in the air longer, while being hit, which will pretty 100% a Usmash on you.

And Punishing or Jab.
If we Jab - anyone with a 6 frame grab can grab us. ( First Hit ).
Second hit, I know that you can be Jabbed out of it, Ike's do that to me a few times.

If he uses Shine to stop our camping.. Why go towards him? Just let him sit in the Shine like a goof.

Nothing that Fox guide listed is a True Combo.
As you can Tech Shine at higher damages when you hit the ground from it.
And for before.. We can Literally use Jab as a Punish is he tries to follow up with the shine.

If we phantasm.. don't get obvious with it, He can and will Usmash you.
As for his Lasers, they're really easy to dodge, power shield and avoid.
Ours are too, but, we get +3 on block with aerial lasers.

If Fox is above you, and he Dairs. Shield Grab him for godsakes.
It isn't hard to Punish Dair.
Though, the Double Dip is pretty tricky to punish if you don't expect it.
If he Multihit Jabs us, We can PS and Grab.

You never want Fox under you, terrible position.
Best option is to have him above us.
Then again, Fox's best option is to have us above him.


This is like, the not gay Falco ditto.
Where one Falco has God in his Usmash.
Di it wrong and you die at 85%, Other than that, Proper Di, you can survive it past 110%.

We do not have a 0 - Death on Fox at all.
Or anyone. Marth has a 0 - Death on us, however. So does Pikachu.

Our CG goes from 0 - 48%.
Stop it one CG early if you want a follow up.

If we Dair him, at Damages where he doesn't get knocked up, he can grab us.
SDi the U-Tilt up if he's around +40%, Implying we're at low damage, you can Dair him out of it.

And I posted the thing about SDi'ing the U-Tilt a while ago, haha.

I'm not saying that Fox can avoid all of this, or we can do all of this on reaction, this is just what they can do.

If you Dair spike him offstage.
Wait for the Fair.
Walk off.
Bair.
Or if they go above the stage.
Jab once.
Walk off.
Bair the firefox when you can.

Dair beats firefox, so does every other move we have.

Do the laser thing Blood Cross said, it's very helpful against a lot of Characters.

Those Punishes that Chef listed are all true, My Cpu do that to me all the time, got to love Cpu.

And TKD tested them.

If we Multi hit Jab, They can SDi up and.. Dair, Nair, Shine.
If they SDi behind, they can Usmash. SDi'ing behind us gives them a +14 frame advantage.

If we firebird, ask the person next to you to slap you, it's just asking for a Shine Gimp and it's game if we get shine gimped.


I'll do more later.


Feel free to Pm if you have any particular questions about Falco, or what Falco can do in a Situation, or what your options are in a Situation.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I can see why some people dislike the ninja thing lol

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Yeah fairing FireFox is REALLY easy.

But I prefer grab releasing Fox after a chaingrab and laser him out of his double jump.

60-40 for Falco easily

 

[1PokeMastr]

It's 55:45.
Not heavily in our Favour.

 

[DellSmashman]

I feel this matchup is dead even 50-50. Yes Falco has the CG but I feel that it hardly even matters that much since Fox can rack up damage just as quick if he gets in and kill pretty well, and even then, it isn't a camping matchup since neither can camp each other. Shine will beat out the Jab to Grab combo. Fox's close up game isn't necessarily bad either, so it isn't all bad for him in that situation. Falco also dies pretty quick to Usmash, while Falco can't reliably kill until around 120%+.

In terms of stages, it feels like Falco doesn't have a stage that Fox can work on as well since they both like the same stages. Definitely ban Halberd though. Difficult matchup for both characters but also quite fun to play, which is why I stick to 50-50

 

[Bloodcross]

It's not 50-50.

The CG puts a heavy toll on Fox and we outrange him. Those are the main reasons we have the slight advantage.

 

[1PokeMastr]

It's not 50-50.

The CG puts a heavy toll on Fox and we outrange him. Those are the main reasons we have the slight advantage.

You seem to be the only other Falco main besides me, who knows what they're talking about.

But, yeah, it's 55:45.
And the CG Does help us out, it's free damage if you land the grab.
Killing Fox isn't a really large issue, and neither is getting 120% on anyone.
If he attacks your sheild around 115% - 120% or above, don't go for a shield grab, just do a Usmash Oos.

 

[holyv]

Fox SUX on surviving.
you haev chaingrabs to spike, that fox sucks on getting out of it
you have stunning lazers.

However he's superior at recovering and gimping.

60:40 for falco i would say, because he can't really do anything

 

[1PokeMastr]

Why is a Luigi main telling us the Falco vs Fox mu ?

 

[M@v]

I had forgotten I actually played matt in that 2 stock experimental tournament at clash1.
I'm Fox and he's falco in this case.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM8KX0Wnd5o&feature=channel_video_title

He wins game one, and I win game 2. So check and see how both sides play the mu.

Game 3 isn't relevant to the mu discussion because its mk vs fox, but he won.

 

[Jet300]

Fox vs Falco is 45/55 falco's favor.
Fox and Falco have the most important technique to them is SHL, Fox's SHL don't give you stun at all, while falco's SHL gives you stun. that means Falco's SHL are better than fox's SHL, at close range Falco's has better close range than fox. Either way fox's jab is really good but Dthrow chain grab gives a good amount of damage, but it can be DI. When Falco dose the dash attack.
Falco's kill moves is are kinda bad since he can't set up for it, don't let Falco trick you on the side of the stage with illusion cancel, You can do this on Falco to fake him out. Usmash is the key to solve your problems against your foe. Be careful do not use Usmash so predictable or you'll get your *** straight on whooped.
gimping Falco can be annoying on the side, but the bottom? Not to worry he can't use fire bird since that piece of crap barely moves anywhere.

 

[BleachigoZX]

This match is pretty bad for fox.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

You seem to be the only other Falco main besides me, who knows what they're talking about.

Why is a Luigi main telling us the Falco vs Fox mu ?

This match is pretty bad for fox.

lol 1PokeMastr is pretty uforgiving and Bleachigo hints at every match-up being like 80:20 Falco.

 

[1PokeMastr]

I don't forgive a failure, a mistake, or stupidity.
I correct it.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Except you're dumb and you suck at this game. Sorry to break it to you.


Bleach and I are right. 60-40 obv

 

[BleachigoZX]

It's easily a 6:4.

You chaingrab, run away and shoot every character in the game.

Olimar
Pikachu
Marth
MK
Snake
IC's
Diddy
Sheik
Toon Link

Are the only characters where you have to play differently and actually need to think or have to worry about something dumb. Only match up's worth going into detail. Every other match up is just tiny specifics and stuff you might want to know.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Olimar is 65:35 in our Favour.

And I don't suck if I actually make an effort to help the boards with Mu's rather than just stating the ratio,
And wasn't it in the rules that just stating the ratio in the Mu is counted as trolling if you have nothing to back it up ?

As for Sheik, you can SDi up on the F-Tilt and Dair Sheik.

This is probably the only Mu I'm heavily biased towards, or, it's actually true, but, I find Falco vs Diddy to be 60:40 in our Favour, maybe it's the fact I play the Mu alot, but, I still don't see what's so difficult against Diddy when you steal his Nanners.

Anyway, my apologies for the continued off topic discussion.

Back to on Topic, play this Mu like the Ditto as Bleachigo has said.
Everything Fox can Punish us for, we can Punish Foc for, except maybe using shine, but, everything else, we can punish him for doing.

 

[crifer]

I think the MU really depends of the stage.
On BF Fox can run and jump simply away, only approaching with bair which is safe on shield.
In order to not get grabbed early, he can also grab you first. Since a lot of Falcos try to laser in order to control the stage you easily get punished by usmash, dashattack oder grab.
I think if the Fox player knows the MU, he is the best character to avoid the (c)g and lasers.

We can punish you as said for lasering and if not in range we can simply move around them. If you jump, we can immedietaly jump in order to jump over the first laser. If we react a little bit too late we can simply input a jump if the first laser is above us, in order to jump after the first laser and above the second. and don´t forget our shine, which can get annyoing for you if used smartly.

We can gimp your sideB easily by running of, dj dair onstage and edgehog you. Only thing that really really is annoying for fox is always running away at low % and jab (which is punishable, too. I was quoted for that above)

If you´re in the air... you pretty much get *****. your aerials have more priority, but we can wait for your landing and grab or utilt you. Falco is pretty optionless against that. fox ac uair is an amazing frametrap. fair does a hell of damage.

50:50 imo.

 

[1PokeMastr]

I think the MU really depends of the stage.
On BF Fox can run and jump simply away, only approaching with bair which is safe on shield.
In order to not get grabbed early, he can also grab you first. Since a lot of Falcos try to laser in order to control the stage you easily get punished by usmash, dashattack oder grab.
I think if the Fox player knows the MU, he is the best character to avoid the (c)g and lasers.

We can punish you as said for lasering and if not in range we can simply move around them. If you jump, we can immedietaly jump in order to jump over the first laser. If we react a little bit too late we can simply input a jump if the first laser is above us, in order to jump after the first laser and above the second. and don´t forget our shine, which can get annyoing for you if used smartly.

We can gimp your sideB easily by running of, dj dair onstage and edgehog you. Only thing that really really is annoying for fox is always running away at low % and jab (which is punishable, too. I was quoted for that above)

If you´re in the air... you pretty much get *****. your aerials have more priority, but we can wait for your landing and grab or utilt you. Falco is pretty optionless against that. fox ac uair is an amazing frametrap. fair does a hell of damage.

50:50 imo.

Fox still has to approach.
We can do the same to your Side B.
We can punish your landings pretty easily.
A Jumping Falco doesn't always mean 'Laser'.
We can wait for the Bair, walk away, Grab.
We can Jab you out of your Jab.
We can Bair/ Dair you if you Dair us. <3 SDi.
We can attack you from under the platforms.
Lasers aren't Falco's only tool.

And you're a Dk main.

 

[Conviction]

1) Not if he has the lead
2) Obv.
3) No lol
4) Once again Obv.
5) No, unless you plan on perfectly timing the grab armor lol
6) This I'm not sure about, I haven't had it happen to me though, I usually finish my jab combo or JJC>Shine/Grab
7) Because everyone has godlike SDI right?
8) We can attack from under platforms too
9) Obv.

He co-mains Fox/DK.

EDIT: I'm not saying the MU is in Fox's favor or anything, I just agree that it's about one of the most even MUs in the game that's not a ditto

 

[1PokeMastr]

1) Not if he has the lead
2) Obv.
3) No lol
4) Once again Obv.
5) No, unless you plan on perfectly timing the grab armor lol
6) This I'm not sure about, I haven't had it happen to me though, I usually finish my jab combo or JJC>Shine/Grab
7) Because everyone has godlike SDI right?
8) We can attack from under platforms too
9) Obv.

He co-mains Fox/DK.

EDIT: I'm not saying the MU is in Fox's favor or anything, I just agree that it's about one of the most even MUs in the game that's not a ditto

We can punish landings pretty easily, I don't know what bad Falco's you play.
Walk away so the Bair Misses -> Grab while Fox is in aerial cool down. Amazing right ?
I do it to Fox's quite a bit, it's like.. They Jab, I SDi down and I Jab.
You don't need god like SDi, getting out Dair is pretty simple, SDi Left or Right. And if you want an Aerial Punish, SDi up( I highly recommend you DON"T try this on Stage, Falco get's Usmashed :D ).
My comment about platforms was when he said 'We can Run away on the BF platforms'.


Anyway, I was basically saying..

'Whatever Fox can do to us, We can do to Fox'.

I have to agree that this Mu is pretty even. It's either 50:50 or 55:45 ( CG ). Though, the CG Doesn't make a huge difference in this Mu. So, yeah, 50:50.


Edit: I'm not even going to go into what that Falco did wrong.

 

[Conviction]

It's been tested that fox can auto cancel his bair while the hitbox is out. Why do you think we get a +4 hit adv. When fox bairs a shield?

Now that I think about it, I think falco can jab out if fox doesn't finish into the rapid kicks. I'd have to test to make sure.

I wouldn't say that falco is bad, he is ranked.

At least we agree on the ratio lol.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

fox gets ***** hard by dash attack
fox doesnt have frame2 jab with amazing range (only frame2)
fox aerials are worse in the mu than falco except for maybe dair but falco has like ****ing bair and thats enough tbh
fox gets ***** offstage too, falco not so much

srsly lets move on

 

[M@v]

fox aerials are worse in the mu than falco except for maybe dair but falco has like ****ing bair and thats enough tbh

>__________>

Fox's aerials are honestly more well rounded than Falcos...

Downair: Falco's is better priority wise, but both of their down airs serve different purposes, and both do a good job at it. So its hard to directly compare them. Falco's is more for spiking, tech chase starter, high priority move. Fox's is a damager racker and combo starter, but has bad priority. Fox's fair is infinitely better than falco's.

Fox's upair is stronger than falcos, has 2 hits, and the first weak hit makes it much easier to connect with the strong hit than falco's strong hit.

Like their dairs, fox and falco's nairs serve different purposes. Falco's nair functions a lot like fox's fair minus the recovery boost fox gets from his, and fox's nair is a combo starter, approach tool, and edgeguard tool.

Back air is the only aerial where falco flat our beats fox. Falco's back air is better or even to fox's bair in every way.

fox gets ***** offstage too, falco not so much

srsly lets move on

You do realize Fox's recovery is much better than Falco's right? In fact Fox's recovery is by far the best recovery out of all 3 space animals. the only thing falco has better is he has a better side b for 2 reasons:
1. Falco has a hitbox in front of him on side b, fox does not.
2. Falco is invulnerable in the first 3rd of his side b, fox isnt.

Other than the side b, fox has the same vertical recovery, and has an infinitely better vertical recovery plus can stall offstage with shine stall while waiting for an opening to come back safely.

 

[Zwei Striker]

I agree with everything but this

Back air is the only aerial where falco flat our beats fox. Falco's back air is better or even to fox's bair in every way.

There's no point of comparation between this 2. Falcos bair is faster, and has a lingering hirbox but that's the only attribute where it beats it. Foxs bair kills faster, has better range and is safer than falcos.

 

[M@v]

-Falco's bair kills about the same percent at fox's when its fresh. The reason why it seems weaker is because falco uses bair a lot more than fox, so its stale most of the time.

-Range wise it might beat it barely in range, but its minimal.

-no way in hell its safer than falcos. You need to autocancel foxs to avoid being punish and even then if offers no followups. Falco's is very safe due to the lingering hitbox, and the end lag after the hitbox is minimal.

 

[Conviction]

M@v if you auto cancel it right you Fox gets +4 on someone's shield. Pretty sure you can follow up, but yes in general Falco's Bair is a hella lot safer than ours.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Downair: Falco's is better priority wise, but both of their down airs serve different purposes, and both do a good job at it. So its hard to directly compare them. Falco's is more for spiking, tech chase starter, high priority move. Fox's is a damager racker and combo starter, but has bad priority. Fox's fair is infinitely better than falco's.

Sure Fair is better.

Fox's upair is stronger than falcos, has 2 hits, and the first weak hit makes it much easier to connect with the strong hit than falco's strong hit.

Except Falco has an easier time trapping the opponent with it. That's more important.

Like their dairs, fox and falco's nairs serve different purposes. Falco's nair functions a lot like fox's fair minus the recovery boost fox gets from his, and fox's nair is a combo starter, approach tool, and edgeguard tool.

Yeah but you're not gonna hit a Nair really, Falco has more chance (while still low)

Back air is the only aerial where falco flat our beats fox. Falco's back air is better or even to fox's bair in every way.

Yeah and it's way important cuz we have sick aerial acceleration and Fox only has that with Fair.

You do realize Fox's recovery is much better than Falco's right? In fact Fox's recovery is by far the best recovery out of all 3 space animals. the only thing falco has better is he has a better side b for 2 reasons:
1. Falco has a hitbox in front of him on side b, fox does not.
2. Falco is invulnerable in the first 3rd of his side b, fox isnt.

Other than the side b, fox has the same vertical recovery, and has an infinitely better vertical recovery plus can stall offstage with shine stall while waiting for an opening to come back safely.

Yes but we have lasers. edit: and better ledgeguards cuz of our fsmash, disjointed jab, lingering bair etc