Falco Matchup #18: Pit

[-DR3W-]

Pit matchup thread.

In this thread, post any contribution you have regarding the Pit matchup.

Keep these in mind when posting:
- What do we have against him?
- What to watch out for?
- Certain do's & don'ts
- Any additional information or data necessary.
- Stage choice ideas.

 

[Bloodcross]

Probably our toughest MU yet.

Bair sweetspotted kills pretty early, other than that Pit has a tough time killing us especially if you can SDI up and forward (to punish) from Fsmash. Even then you should only be getting hit with Bair if Pit catches you in the spotdodge (even THEN he has trouble picking at your 2 frame cooldown lag if you abuse it in front of him) or while you're recovering. He can punish our recovery really well. Watch how you use your double jump, if you're not careful Pit can arrow us out of our double jump and just keep arrowing until he can grab the ledge. And obviously he can mirror your Firebird.

This is what Pit on us for chaingrabs (copied from the boards):

fthrow>fthrow>fthrow>dash attack (most notable, watch out for uair/utilt follow-ups)
fthrow>ss fsmash up to 15%
fthrow>fthrow> ss or walking fsmash
fthrow>dtilt

In terms of camping, it's pretty even. Pit's arrows do more damage per hit than Falco's lazers and can be angled to avoid our reflector. Pit will definitely try to punish your short hop use, so mix up your camping game between sh/standing reflector and shl/shdl.

I think this MU is 50-50.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

Finally, a MatchUp actually worth discussing. This Matchup is probably dead even. 50:50.

First things first, yes, we have the CG to 43% on him + Dair/Attack, but as Bloodcross stated, he has a CG of his own, which could lead to an early 30% immediately, so careful not to get grabbed at 0%. The thing that really makes the MatchUp a pain is the fact that he can kill us way earlier than we can kill him. Bair sweetspot is easily Pit's best kill move with Fsmash being a close 2nd. Don't get greedy going for the kill at early percent because he can punish with dash attack and dash attack actually kills at later percentages, so watch out.

Let's talk about Angel Ring. Or, Pit's Side B. When used on stage, it's easily punishable with reflector or maybe even jab. When used off stage, it goes right through our Firebird which could lead to an early gimp if the Pit gets you at the right angle. Even if it doesn't hit you, Side B has a wind hitbox, so you'll get pushed back which will lead to an edgeguard. As far as offstage game is concerned, we get wrecked pretty hard, so I would suggest you stay on stage for the duration of this matchup. If you get knocked off of the stage, you WILL eat a barrage of arrows, so make it back onto the stage as quickly as possible.

Moving on to camping, each character has a good camping game. They both have reflectors, and Pit's nair actually serves as a DEflector. Falco's lazers come out faster, but Pit's arrows do more damage. Plus, they can be angled, so even if you try to reflect it, they could just be reflected straight up. I don't believe one can outcamp the other, so it's pretty much based on who has more patience after that.

What most Pits will try to do is ledge camp. They will follow this format:

Ledge drop > Arrow > Fair onto stage
Ledge Drop > Arrow > Regrab ledge

If you try to approach, you will get ***** by Uair. The best thing to do is stay a little back while waiting for Pit to get back onto the stage, reflecting his arrows in the process. They'll try to mix it up, so don't always anticipate the arrow. You will get punished if you try reflecting everything.

As far as close game is concerned, jab does work. Pit's jab isn't bad either, so don't sleep on that. His Fsmash also comes out ridiculously fast, so that will definitely get you killed early if you're not cautious. Just try to keep him away and don't get too aggressive in this matchup. Mix it up with your short hops and don't get predictable. Reflector and jab will help a good bit in this matchup.

This character may be underrated, but he can't be sleeped on. It's 50:50.

 

[Host Change]

In this matchup, I really like the Bair as a kill move. The reflector seems to be a good way to punish any bad decisions Pit makes in the air if he is approaching in certain situations. Of course the chain grab is great here too.

When it comes to camping, Falco's lasers are significantly faster, but IMO both ave a pretty decent camping game. As long as Falco can dodge Pit's arrows, I believe he has the upper hand here. Also, I personally like to laser at mid range a good bit in this MU.

One thing Falco has to be careful about is what he does off stage. Pit can wreck him there. I would agree to this MU being about even. Pit has some good approaches, but Falco has the chain grab. Both have a good camping game.

I did have one thought though. One of my friends that I don't see to much plays Pit competitively and last I played him, I didn't make good use of the Nair. Situationally, do you guys think it's a a good or bad idea to use? My guess is Pit can punish it if it's expected, but it's a good mixup. I'm not certain though...

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i have a huge write up i did a while ago for this in the pit boards and i see you guys got my cg info. ill come back to this after class later today give you guys all my gathered falco info.

 

[Bloodcross]

Admiral Pit gonna give us his Pit documents

in exchange for Aib Trading Cards

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

About getting hit offstage and being followed up by with arrows.

Can you clank with them using falco's aerials? I'm pretty sure Bair/Dair will clank in the air if it is not charged enough. I just haven't played any pits in so long.

Also, save your FF, 2nd jump, and side B until you can get past an arrow. Or use FF to get past an arrow, use 2nd jump to avoid another, etc. There is no reason you should die from getting hit offstage if your careful about when you time your movements in relation to what pit does on stage and any arrows that come your way.

The potential for jab (3%) -> grab -> pummel (2%) -> throw (8%-10%)-> arrow (5%-8%) is sort of annoying.

 

[Krystedez]

Unfortunately I didn't play DEHF OR Rain at G2 with my Pit so I can't say squat right now about this matchup other than it's dead even. I've had so many awesome fights with Filip on wifi (from AIB) AND we played friendlies at G2. It was fun

But yeah, Falco owns Pit on BF and Pit owns Falco on SV and FD camping wise. Up close, they both have their shortcomings AND positive traits. I think this match ups is quite even on neutrals but not cps like Brinstar, RC, Halberd (Pit owns), but Falco owns at Frigate, PS1... Not sure about Castle Siege OR Ps2... haha...

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

The matchup is really close to even, but if Falco lands his chaingrab and gets momentum he will be at an advantage.

Most good Pits will probably camp until they are at a significant enough percent where falco can't follow up with anything after dthrow. Close range Falco wins with his laser cancels and jabs. I also think Falco has a slightly better camping game just based on the fact that he can shoot faster and get to the other side of the stage faster when escaping close combat. Though mirror shield will stop lasers from afar and Falco's reflector can be curved around to hit Falco anyway.

On the other hand Falco will get wrecked offstage. I see it this way, if Falco gets hit by two arrows at mid-offstage or one arrow that takes away his second jump he is dead from either edgehog or mirror shield. Best way to defend against offstage arrows is to airdodge through them at the proper moments. Falco also dies earlier than Pit unless he gets a spike off or gimps us out of our up b. Best way for Falco to live is to DI upwards all the time, Pit doesn't get many kills off the top until you're around 150% from a dair or dash attack.

Best stage to take Pit is BF, and don't take him to FD or Halberd because the longer stages is where Pit's camping game is better. SV is good if you feel comfortable with a neutral. Don't know how Falco is on Yoshi's, but Yoshi's is bad for Pit same with PS1 since we can't fly under the stages.

If Falco gets in his guaranteed dthrow chaingrab to whatever it's 55:45 Falco, but otherwise it's about 50:50.

 

[Kuro~]

About getting hit offstage and being followed up by with arrows.

Can you clank with them using falco's aerials? I'm pretty sure Bair/Dair will clank in the air if it is not charged enough. I just haven't played any pits in so long.

Also, save your FF, 2nd jump, and side B until you can get past an arrow. Or use FF to get past an arrow, use 2nd jump to avoid another, etc. There is no reason you should die from getting hit offstage if your careful about when you time your movements in relation to what pit does on stage and any arrows that come your way.

The potential for jab (3%) -> grab -> pummel (2%) -> throw (8%-10%)-> arrow (5%-8%) is sort of annoying.

Eh i'm sorry i disagree. Falco gets hurt offstage vs pit pretty hard...

Your best bet to survive is take a few arrows when recovering high and DJ AD to phantasm. Be very careful with up-b cuz both angel ring and mirror shield hurt it. Not to mention it's a free offstage bair. Angel ring over the lip of stages is godlike as well lol. I think this is one of THE most even matchups in the game tbh.

The matchup is really close to even, but if Falco lands his chaingrab and gets momentum he will be at an advantage.

Most good Pits will probably camp until they are at a significant enough percent where falco can't follow up with anything after dthrow. Close range Falco wins with his laser cancels and jabs. I also think Falco has a slightly better camping game just based on the fact that he can shoot faster and get to the other side of the stage faster when escaping close combat. Though mirror shield will stop lasers from afar and Falco's reflector can be curved around to hit Falco anyway.

On the other hand Falco will get wrecked offstage. I see it this way, if Falco gets hit by two arrows at mid-offstage or one arrow that takes away his second jump he is dead from either edgehog or mirror shield. Best way to defend against offstage arrows is to airdodge through them at the proper moments. Falco also dies earlier than Pit unless he gets a spike off or gimps us out of our up b. Best way for Falco to live is to DI upwards all the time, Pit doesn't get many kills off the top until you're around 150% from a dair or dash attack.

Best stage to take Pit is BF, and don't take him to FD or Halberd because the longer stages is where Pit's camping game is better. SV is good if you feel comfortable with a neutral. Don't know how Falco is on Yoshi's, but Yoshi's is bad for Pit same with PS1 since we can't fly under the stages.

If Falco gets in his guaranteed dthrow chaingrab to whatever it's 55:45 Falco, but otherwise it's about 50:50.

Eh that's like saying dedede beats us 60:40 cuz of a chain grab.

It's really not that hard to avoid or come back from cuz of our own chain grab.

I personally enjoy YI vs falco. He does get hurt by our Cps pretty hard. But he has some amazing choices as well.


Both characters jabs are amazing.
Even in camping.
Falco kills pit later but pit will sometimes find it a bit harder to land the kill move.

Pit will die anywhere from 140-160 generally
falco anywhere from 110-130s generally.

Reflector, ftilt, jab, and using grabs to press an advantage against pit is good for falco.

Pit getting falco in the air or offstage. And punishing it hard. Not missing punishes. Inch forward to fight where he excels in this mu mid range.

I will say dsmash and ftilt send falco at the PERFECT angle for edgeguarding.

General falco stuff works for the most part.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

pit MU pros:

-our jab out ranges his and the infinite jab eats through a lot of his grounded moveset because they get hit before their hitbox comes out when they try to hit it.

-our dtilt is also great to punish his jab with as it pops them in the air where we can start using uair, upward arrows, and punish landings

-we can jump and shoot arrows over their reflector and since most falco's just spam shdl, they miss because we are staying in the air with our jumps shooting. when we run out of jumps we can get down safely with mirror (this is assuming we are camping each other).

-we also have early percent grab shenanigans on him

-at mid high percents, we can punish whiffed moves with dash attack to get him above us

-on stages we can fly under, we will probably NEVER get gimped

-planking is hard for falco to beat. like realllllly hard

-us AR to push falco over the edge while the AR hangs out over the lip almost guarentees a gimp. he can shoot at it, can't phantasm it, it just works.

-if we are close enough our utilt can contest his jab and if all 3 hits connect it's a solid 16% not to mention we can usually just kinda spam it at low percents if it hits and get in a couple more because of falco's fall speed.

-arrows wreck offstage, as does our fair and bair. oh ya, and any pit that matters is good at footstooling and with the ability to mix that up with fair and bair when we chase you off stage with a wing refresh it makes getting the gimp a severe threat to falco

-mirror shield, do i need to say y?


falco's pros:

-your jab still does work up close. just don't do the infinite or pit will DI right behind you and you will eat an fsmash.

-obviously your cg has a major effect on how this MU goes. you are able to a stock with it sometimes or just set up an edgeguard which you have the tools to do efficiently

-edgeguarding is really good for you guys since we have a lgl. with lazer traps and reflector backed up by that bair and jab, you have all the tools it takes to get a good amount of damage on pit when he decides to get off the ledge. be careful not to get close enough to get uaired though since if you mess up your DI you will get flung offstage.

-general onstage falco game with phantasm jabs and lazers and bairs can overwhelm pit like it can overwhelm anyone. i mean it's falco's moveset, you the players already know how well it works.

-your spike is a threat to pit's that mis-space gliding. if you can tell when they are gonna glide, go get em. it has terrible startup and even if they do glide, your lazers stop it on spot.


even though i listed less pros for falco, those fewer things cover about as much as pit's many things which is why it is so even


there you go guys, this MU is super even. it's one of those MUs that is so even that it can feel like either character is at a disadvantage when the other has momentum. although so far i guess im the only pit that would RATHER play falco on bf the fd. pit's platform camping is really strong, and i feel platforms help pit more than hurt against falco. hell they probably get about the same amount of benefit from them.

however, whoever said falco can cp pit to frigate, i ask you are you crazy?

i also feel pit has stronger cps on falco but less to choose from, whereas falco gets fewer advantages on more stages overall.

 

[Orion*]

How do people think falcos going to die so early from pit... I don't really see it. Like Bair is extremely solid, but it's fairly obvious and if you're playing safe I don't really see the strong hit working very often.

Falcos followups from the chain grab are much gayer than pits, ignoring the fact that it just does more base damage.

Planking doesn't really change much there's an LGL....

If both characters decide to just hard camp it's probably even.

but I think Falco's frame data // moveset just out boxes pit imo. Pit's jab outranges falcos but other than that I really feel like I have more space and mobility to move around, bait and attack with. Falco doesn't really need to power camp pit past a certain point. he can just zone and if pit commits he has a much better range of options.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

seriously i hate it when people say bair isn't a plausible kill move to get hit by. you realize we can do it out of a wing dash right? it is not hard to punish a roll or spot dodge with strong bair. plus at the higher percents, weak bair true combos into strong bair and that right there is something nobody ever takes into account. hell even just baiting an airdodge and punishing it with bair works. or we can bair phantasm. or just weak bair them offstage and edgeguard them. hell if it was landed properly weak bair can true combo into footstool as well. sharking bair through platforms or certain stages is also legit. or we can wing stall and then ffbair as mix up and timing throw off. and even if we can't get the bair in at that 95-120 (based on stage placement) kill range, a fresh fsmash will kill falco at like 120-130 and there are plenty of ways too land that.

although i agree that his boxing game is in general superior, don't exclude pit's dtilt as a good option against a falco that is trying to get in, it has about the same range as marth's fsmash and hitbox is frame 6 (as fast as our fsmash).

everyone is entitled to their opinion though. i just wanted to point out how much people tend to under rate bair when it is so much better than it is given credit for.

 

[MARLX]

50-50

Both characters have a great camping game. When pit is under falco off stage Falco can instantly dair and get the kill. Falco's lasers mess up pit's recovery. Pit's arrows mess up our recovery. Falco has a better ground game, but pit has a better air game.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

When pit is under falco off stage Falco can instantly dair and get the kill.

Most characters get KO'd by Falco's Dair at high percent, but no skilled Pit should be getting hit by Dair anyway. ESPECIALLY when they're ledge camping; Pit's Uair will eat that up.

 

[Orion*]

seriously i hate it when people say Usmash isn't a plausible kill move to get hit by. you realize we can do it out of a draconic reverse right? it is not hard to punish a roll or spot dodge with Usmash. plus at the higher percents, I can grab release usmash and that right there is something nobody ever takes into account. hell even just baiting an airdodge and punishing it with usmash works. or we can usmash phantasm. or just usmash them then juggle them with up airs until they die. hell if it was landed properly usmash can true combo into jab as well. usmashing through platforms or certain stages is also legit. or we can wing breversal egg lay and then usmash as mix up and timing throw off. and even if we can't get the usmash in at that 95-120 (based on stage placement) kill range, a fresh fsmash will kill falco at like 120-130 and there are plenty of ways too land that.

although i agree that his boxing game is in general superior, don't exclude yoshi's dtilt as a good option against a falco that is trying to get in, it has about the same range as marth's fsmash and hitbox is frame 7.

everyone is entitled to their opinion though. i just wanted to point out how much people tend to under rate usmash when it is so much better than it is given credit for.

im sorry but like no.
the second you have to start bringing like hard reads and baiting and **** into the mechanic for a matchup regarding how viable a kill move is vs a safe character like falco your entire justification for said move seems a lot more unviable than before. it's a solid move. but it's nothing game changing and I would not expect to see it being hit to often on falcos at top level play.

Also. the amount of salt I could write for EVEN attempting to compare pits dtilt to marths Fsmash XDDD
I'm way to jaded vs that character omg

 

[DJ Arcatek]

LOLWUT @ Orion's post. The quote mind ****ed me.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Eh that's like saying dedede beats us 60:40 cuz of a chain grab.

It's really not that hard to avoid or come back from cuz of our own chain grab.

I never said it was hard to avoid, but a persistent Falco will get it every once in a while by using his broken spot dodge or rolling or whatever because his frame data is really good. It isn't similar to D3 at all because Falco has legit follow ups out of his chaingrab and DDD just sits on you a few times across the stage.

How do people think falcos going to die so early from pit... I don't really see it. Like Bair is extremely solid, but it's fairly obvious and if you're playing safe I don't really see the strong hit working very often.

He is fairly light and also a fast faller so not too hard to kill or gimp.

 

[Krystedez]

Pit's b-air is VIABLE to use in the match up, nothing game breaking or changing about it. It's usable. Period. Falco can't maneuver around it like other characters like Wario or Meta Knight (air mobility and priority respectively). Falco's best aerials are bair and dair, and both of those trade against Pit. So he has air dodge, illusion, and maybe nair left. It's not "hard reads". It's simple. You just pick and choose when to use bair, and punish.

Falco by no means "boxes" better than Pit, he just has a really good jab but that even can be DI'd quite easily into a punish on Falco, that I know. I think Falco's strong suit up close is jab canceled stuff, BDACUS, DACUS, or follow ups/mix ups, but he isn't going to out-anything on Pit up close, because a lot of THAT requires hard reads as well... They both have their strengths and weaknesses at this distance. Camping takes all of that variability out of the equation, leaving it to whoever camps better as the winner.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

orion, i love the way you did that.

at the dtilt thing, all i said was that it has similar range so it does well to out space jab. that's all im sayin brah

 

[Bloodcross]

Wow Yoshi

You're an idiot.

 

[Bloodcross]

But really, if we spam spotdodge in place in a non-obvious matter (like a defense mechanism) it's hard for aerials to hit us (and Pit will more likely hit us with sour spot Bair instead). It's basically how you play the Marth MU lololololololololol

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I lack significant exposure to the match-up. NO ONE here plays Pit, but I'd theorycraft a +1 Falco.

 

[Orion*]

orion, i love the way you did that.

at the dtilt thing, all i said was that it has similar range so it does well to out space jab. that's all im sayin brah

**** has like no vertical range though. if i read you doing that i can overhead you. marth? na

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

that's true. i was just talking horizantal. although on slants like lylat and YI B it gets hella vertical and horizantal range but that's conditional so i didn't even take it into account.

 

[Orion*]

that's true. i was just talking horizantal. although on slants like lylat and YI B it gets hella vertical and horizantal range but that's conditional so i didn't even take it into account.

lylat should defo. be pits counterpick in this MU imo >_>

and I generally like lylat. but pits annoying as **** there

 

[-DR3W-]

Good **** guys.

Admiral Pit gonna give us his Pit documents

in exchange for Aib Trading Cards

I ****ing died.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

What would our best stages vs Pit be? I think Battlefield is one of them. One of the worst is probably Lylat, though...

 

[MARLX]

Most characters get KO'd by Falco's Dair at high percent, but no skilled Pit should be getting hit by Dair anyway. ESPECIALLY when they're ledge camping; Pit's Uair will eat that up.

Doesn't Falco's dair have more priority?

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

nope. pit's uair eats through damn near everything, including falco's dair

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Doesn't Falco's dair have more priority?

Aerial attacks don't have priority. It's all about disjoint and hitting your opponent before their attacks hits you when looking at aerial attacks.

Although, if anyone has any recommendation on DI with Pit's Nair and Uair, that would make them less threatening. I know you can DI to avoid the final hit and might be able to punish.

 

[swordsaint]

aerial attacks have priority when vsing grounded attacks though

 

[Orion*]

What would our best stages vs Pit be? I think Battlefield is one of them. One of the worst is probably Lylat, though...

pretty much.
if I have to to get a 2nd ban or something I'd probably just do brinstar or something. RC doesnt seem bad.

I have a feeling that CS would be good in this MU for falco but I like never play there. Like the most un CPed stage in this world

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

your cps are definately CS, PKS1, and YI Brawl (this one is the least CP like though)

our CPs are lylat, halberd, brinstar, and RC.

 

[Orion*]

why ps1?

id do bf over ps unless there's a specific reason

 

[DJ Arcatek]

Eh, I never thought YI was a good Falco stage honestly LOL. I personally always strike that first regardless of my opponent's character, but eh, different strokes for different folks.

I'm also wondering as to how PS1 works as a suitable CP ?

 

[Orion*]

the only bonus to YI is that you can't scrooge there. considering there's an LGL I honestly could care less...

 

[DJ Arcatek]

my point exactly ^ platform disrupts lasers and the slants make IAP all all weird and ****. Considering that Pit could very well punish you for phantasm, I wouldn't take my chances on that stage.

 

[Bloodcross]

It's good vs Snake

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

pit can't fly under PS1. and BF is a really good stage for pit to time people out on so always go with a stage he can't fly under on counter pick, because if you pick BF it's still an even MU. but any stage we can't go under takes away like a whole 3rd or more of our recovery options.