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Falco Frame Data

3GOD

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Messages
745
Location
Athens, GA
I've compiled some frame data for Falco, and I thought other people might like to see it.

Jab:
1st jab total: 16
1st jab hits on frame 2
1st jab shield hit lag: 6
1st jab shield stun: 7
1st jab advantage: -13
2nd jab hits on frame 10 (counting frame 1 as first frame of 1st jab)
Linking to 2nd jab hit box advantage: -7 (opponent has 7 frames between shield stun and 2nd jab hit box)

Dash Attack:
Total: 35
First hits on frame 4
Shield hit lag: 8
Shield stun: 10
Advantage: -29
Linking to Usmash hit box advantage: -6 (opponent has 6 frames between shield stun and Usmash hit box)

Dtilt:
Total: 27 frames
First hits on frame 7
Shield hit lag: 9
Shield stun: 13
Advantage: -16

Ftilt:
Total: 26 frames
First hits on frame 6
Shield hit lag: 8
Shield stun: 11
Advantage: -17

Utilt:
Total: 36 frames
First hits on frame 4, second hit on frame 12
Shield hit lag: 6 (second hit)
Shield stun: 11 (second hit)
Advantage: -19 (second hit)

Dsmash:
Total: 46 frames
First hits on frame 7
Shield hit lag: 11
Shield stun: 15
Advantage: -35

Fsmash:
Total: 49 frames
First hits on frame 16 – 18 at least
Shield hit lag: 5
Shield stun: 14
Advantage: -22

Usmash:
Total: 44 frames
First hits on frame 8
Shield hit lag: 9
Shield stun: 13
Advantage: -32

Nair:
First hits on frame 3
Landing lag: 9
Shield hit lag: 6
Shield stun: 7
Advantage: -8

Dair:
First hits on frame 5
Landing lag: 12
Shield hit lag: 10
Shield stun: 14
Advantage: -8

Fair:
First hits on frame 6
Landing lag: 33
Shield hit lag:
Shield stun:
Advantage: bad - not going to bother checking

Bair:
First hits on frame 4
Landing lag: 15
Shield hit lag: 10
Shield stun: 14
Advantage: -11

Uair:
First hits on frame 10
Landing lag: 15
Shield hit lag: 9
Shield stun: 12
Advantage: -12

Neutral-B:
First hits on frame 12

Airborne Neutral B:
First hits on frame 10
Shield stun: 5
"Silent Laser" lag: 2
Advantage: +3

Side-B:
First hits on frame 17

Up-B:
First hits on frame 21

Down-B:
Total: 51 frames
First hits on frame 4 – 6 at least
Shield hit lag: 0
Shield stun: 9
Advantage: -34

Standing Grab:
Total: 29 frames
First grabs frame 6

Dash Grab:
Total: 39 frames
First grabs on frame 11

Pivot Grab:
Total: 35 frames
First grabs on frame 9

Jump airborne on frame 7
SH airborne for 37 frames
SH fast fall airborne for 27 frames

Spot Dodge:
Lasts 22 Frames
Invincible Frames 2 – 20

Roll Backward:
Lasts 31 Frames
Invincible Frames 4 – 19

Roll Forward:
Lasts 31 Frames
Invincible Frames 4 – 19

Air Dodge:
Lasts 49 Frames
Invincible Frames 4 – 31

EDIT: Updated with some Jab information.

If there are any other bits of frame data you'd like investigated for Falco, just let me know. It's kind of troublesome to find out exactly how long certain hit boxes "stay out," but everything else isn't too bad to test and get the data.
 

CO18

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
5,921
Location
In Your Mom
Thx for the list, You get a cookie and a big hug if you tell me how to do this, just how to test the startup frames is all I want to know, i sort of know youre supposed to stand the chars next to each other, pause and input the commands but I dont get how you determine the frames from that, I just figure out what moves are faster than which.
 

3GOD

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Messages
745
Location
Athens, GA
Thx for the list, You get a cookie and a big hug if you tell me how to do this, just how to test the startup frames is all I want to know, i sort of know youre supposed to stand the chars next to each other, pause and input the commands but I dont get how you determine the frames from that, I just figure out what moves are faster than which.
I capture the video using a lossless codec in VirtualDub. Then I "deinterlace" the video to get 60 frames per second (VirtualDub again). From there, it's just a matter of counting the frames to get the data.
 

3GOD

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Messages
745
Location
Athens, GA
oh my god. Thank you so much for this. This is extremely helpful. We are indebted to you. On another note, that's what is disappointing about brawl. Everything puts you at a disadvantage.
Yeah, the best move I've found so far in terms of frame advantage is Peach's auto-canceled Fair (it's a 0 frame advantage). However, some of Falco's moves do have their uses in shield pressure.

Consider Ftilt. It has a frame disadvantage of 17 frames, but it has a good range on it and pulls back quickly, meaning that a shield grab is unlikely. However, it probably leaves you vulnerable to aerial out of shield from most characters. It could also be possible for the opponent to shield drop (this takes 7 frames) and then use the 10 remaining frames to use one of their ranged attacks.

Probably the best options frame-wise for Falco are crossover Dair and crossover Nair. With Falco at an 8 frame disadvantage, the opponent cannot really shield drop and attack before Falco can turn and jab them. It's also unlikely that they can jump and attack before the jab comes out, and shield grabbing is out of the question since you've crossed over.

Honestly though, you're right that this is one major disappointment with Brawl, there are almost no moves that are safe on block. Only through good spacing and defensive play can you maintain your safety.

Falco has a really good spot dodge lol.
Yeah, it's amazing. He is invincible about 86% of the time if he continuously spot dodges. His air dodge on the other hand isn't that great. Falco needs to be careful about air dodging off stage since it will possibly mean he has to Up-B which means he will probably die.
 

Beetle Juice

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
356
Location
New York City
yo what about when you are rushing your opponent with lasers and you hit his shield, at what distance to have to be in order to capadalize on his shield stun with a grab.
 

3GOD

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Messages
745
Location
Athens, GA
yo what about when you are rushing your opponent with lasers and you hit his shield, at what distance to have to be in order to capadalize on his shield stun with a grab.
Well, that is a little harder to say. Ideally, you gain a 3 frame advantage by silent lasering if the laser hits their shield on the same frame that you land on the ground, but even then a grab is not guaranteed since most characters are invincible on frame 2 of their spot dodge.

Realistically, one shouldn't really use lasers to rush the opponent in my opinion. You can use them to close in a little bit, but you don't want to be using them once you're about twice Falco's height away from the opponent generally. At this point, it's probably too slow (on the front end) to use the "silent lasers," and too laggy (afterwards) to use regular lasers.
what is the meaning of the "advantage" on the bottom?
BTW, bump
The advantage tells how much of a frame advantage (or disadvantage indicated by negative numbers, as is almost always the case in Brawl) certain moves will give Falco upon hitting an opponent's shield. In the case of Nair for instance, if Falco hits the opponent's shield with the last hit of his Nair on the frame before he lands on the ground, then Falco has an "advantage" of -8 frames. This means that the shielding opponent can do any action out of shield (grab, jump, dodge, roll, or drop shield) 8 frames before Falco can do any action.
 

3xSwords

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
1,193
Location
Bergen County
mind doing marth?

excellent list btw

just a random q, but for ROB on his spotdodge do you know how many invincibility frames he has compared to total frames?
 

iDizZzY

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
437
Location
CV!!!
Well, that is a little harder to say. Ideally, you gain a 3 frame advantage by silent lasering if the laser hits their shield on the same frame that you land on the ground, but even then a grab is not guaranteed since most characters are invincible on frame 2 of their spot dodge.

Realistically, one shouldn't really use lasers to rush the opponent in my opinion. You can use them to close in a little bit, but you don't want to be using them once you're about twice Falco's height away from the opponent generally. At this point, it's probably too slow (on the front end) to use the "silent lasers," and too laggy (afterwards) to use regular lasers.

The advantage tells how much of a frame advantage (or disadvantage indicated by negative numbers, as is almost always the case in Brawl) certain moves will give Falco upon hitting an opponent's shield. In the case of Nair for instance, if Falco hits the opponent's shield with the last hit of his Nair on the frame before he lands on the ground, then Falco has an "advantage" of -8 frames. This means that the shielding opponent can do any action out of shield (grab, jump, dodge, roll, or drop shield) 8 frames before Falco can do any action.

thank you for clarifying
 

furiousduffmanx

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2006
Messages
1,037
Location
El Paso, TX
i have been wanting to see this for some characters for a while. Looks beautiful to me, but can some one please xplain to me what does shield hit lag, shield stun, and advantage really mean?
 

Sethlon

Smash Champion
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 20, 2004
Messages
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Location
Dallas, Texas
Wow, silent lasers have a +3 advantage? We need to start doing SLs to grabs, guys.

If you're still doing requests, I'd like to pose a few questions :)

I imagine the data you have down for the Dair is for when you SH -> dair immediately -> wait a tick then fast fall for the auto cancel?
Could you test exactly what the difference on advantage frames would be if you shorthop -> fastfall -> dair at the very last second?

Also, could we get the frame dis/advantage for the first jab? SK does alot of jab -> grab, and I can never tell if its because the stun is long enough or because hes just so unpredictable that people keep shielding and fall for it.
 

iDizZzY

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
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CV!!!
Ankoku

"When an attack hits, there's an amount of time where the person who shielded can't do anything (shieldstun) and the person who attacked will be in freeze-frames (shieldhitlag)."
wow this helps alot with my understanding. Thank you
 

BEES

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
This is top-quality stuff 3GOD. Some of this has got to be abusable.

I imagine the data you have down for the Dair is for when you SH -> dair immediately -> wait a tick then fast fall for the auto cancel?
I don't know what the frames are, but Dair at the last possible moment it can be done above the floor has to have the fastest recovery time.
 

DanGR

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
6,861
Woa, nice list. About how many frames does it take for a boostgrab to grab the opponent? Would it be 9(pivot grab) or 11(running grab) frames?
 

Beetle Juice

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
356
Location
New York City
the thing is that even when your opponent is shielding, falco can do a SH better prefered the backwards momemtum, laser they would get shield stun and falco should be able to grab from close range since double lasers leaves you vulnurable and they don't expect the lasers coming.

On another topic: sethlon why don't you fight ice climbers on the small platforms like battlefield since they will not be able to succesfully chaingrab you there and there ariels can be punished with your shield?
 

B-Mon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
321
Location
New York City
Nice research man, exactly what we need around here.
All seems to be covered in the OP so i guess there isn't much to say but to commend you for taking your time out and finding out this information for us.

Nice work.
 

3GOD

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Messages
745
Location
Athens, GA
Wow, silent lasers have a +3 advantage? We need to start doing SLs to grabs, guys.

If you're still doing requests, I'd like to pose a few questions :)

I imagine the data you have down for the Dair is for when you SH -> dair immediately -> wait a tick then fast fall for the auto cancel?
Could you test exactly what the difference on advantage frames would be if you shorthop -> fastfall -> dair at the very last second?

Also, could we get the frame dis/advantage for the first jab? SK does alot of jab -> grab, and I can never tell if its because the stun is long enough or because hes just so unpredictable that people keep shielding and fall for it.
Yeah, silent lasers are good for sure, but 3 frames isn't a guaranteed grab still, but it's by far the best frame advantage I've found thus far (the only one that actually gives a frame advantage).

As to your other question(s), the data I have listed is for the Dair at the last possible moment. In other words, the Dair hit box appears, you experience shield hit lag, and on the next frame after the shield hit lag, you land on the ground experiencing 12 frames of landing lag. Take that 12 frames of landing lag minus the 4 gained in the shield hit lag/shield stun trade off, and you've got your 8 frame disadvantage.

For Dairing immediately and then fast falling, I'm pretty sure it's not as good frame-wise, but the real advantage in Dairing immediately lies in the ability to move away from the grab range (not fast falling). SH fast fall takes 27 frames, so SH --> immediate Dair --> fast fall --> landing would look something like this:

Hitbox appears on frame 5 of the SH and stops Falco for 10 frames (shield hit lag). After the shield hit lag, the opponent still has 4 more frames of shield stun, and then 18 frames later, Falco will land on the ground with 4 frames of landing lag (I'll talk about this in a minute). So basically, the opponent can do any out of shield action 22 frames before Falco can do anything.

For that 4 frames of landing lag I mentioned in the previous paragraph, I'm not sure if that is something special for fast falling or some kind of weird auto-cancel. Normal landing lag (no aerial attack) is 2 frames from short heights and 5 frames from tall heights. Normally, if a move "auto-cancels," there are 2 frames of landing lag or 5 if the fall is from a higher location. Perhaps SH fast fall (no aerial) has some additional landing lag, but I still need to check and see if that's the case. Regardless, Falco's Dair has 4 frames of landing lag if it's done immediately in a SH with a fast fall.

I'll update with some Jab information...

I'm pretty sure that people are only falling for Jab --> Grab because they are afraid of getting multi-jabbed by Falco, though it would really be better for them to take the Jabs than a chain grab.
Woa, nice list. About how many frames does it take for a boostgrab to grab the opponent? Would it be 9(pivot grab) or 11(running grab) frames?
You mean the boost grab (dash attack --> cancel with a grab) or the boost pivot grab (dash attack --> cancel with a pivot grab). I'm pretty sure the normal boost grab will be a dash grab (11 frames), and the boost pivot grab will be 9 frames.
 

Runawayfire

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
1,649
Location
Toronto
Hey 3GOD, I've got a pretty usefull question:
Have you messed around with jab cancelling (pressing down to cancel the jab) and seen how much (if any) faster it is frame wise? I was wondering what the speed benefit in frames would look like, and if it brings the advantage closer to zero.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
SL can true combo in Jab (you have +3 advantage, Jab takes 2 frames to hit), which then leads into a grab if they shield.
 

J4pu

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
2,343
Location
Torrance/Irvine, CA, USA
I want to know aerial attacks' duration.
You forgot something 3GOD, please come back to the falco boards, we appreciate you more than those other characters.
 
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