PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[PAWN1]

Bit too early for that. I think it was more of a Bair setup if he FH'd into me, and otherwise a bait.

Just to confirm, are you faking short hop falling through the platform? And baiting him running up underneath you to challenge it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMpUymqNkag

0:36 - Here you get under Peach floating by the ledge and dair her. Is this just an unsafe position for Peach to float at?

0:53 - Were you shielding to cover aerial OOS here after the fair? Why not dash away after the fair in this situation?

0:55 - Was this double jump out of short hop because you realized you short hopped when Peach full hop floated, and were thus in a bad spot? Or is this meant to beat float somehow?

0:56 - Just want to confirm I understand this situation - you dash in when Peach is in your threat range, WD away and observe, then come in when you confirm Peach is in the same position. Peach WD’s away as you begin your short hop so you can’t react. This looks like a really well timed WD back.

1:03 - Is this short dash in long dash away meant to serve as a bait for a falling aerial from float? Then you full dash away -> shine to cover the falling aerial from DJ?

1:15 - What were you waiting for on the side platform after the laser here?

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Usually facing toward, sometimes preemptive sometimes not, occasionally defensive. Just watch it.

More deepening can happen within simple movements. You can experiment whenever you feel like it, but the simple plays will carry you furthest.

Probably to help reinforce ideas you might otherwise skim with just seeing something. There are likely other benefits.


Falco's DJ is pretty great vs himself and Fox so it's not so bad. Fox would have to read it to win, and that means waiting out an approach or backing up against it. It also helps you punish out of the shine.

I think I expected him to FH over me if I just SH'd near him or SH'd at all, so I think I just went for the mixup by running in.

Pretty much yeah.

Bit too early for that. I think it was more of a Bair setup if he FH'd into me, and otherwise a bait.

Mostly wanted to move back so he didn't immediately attack and then I'd go in since I didn't expect him to super wait I believe, so yeah more or less.

Oh so the double jump is like faking an approach? Or are you doing this off of dash back sh in place? What visual cue do you use to confirm into double jump?

Why don't people simplify their movement more if they get you further? Does this apply to the top players as well?

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Oh so the double jump is like faking an approach? Or are you doing this off of dash back sh in place? What visual cue do you use to confirm into double jump?

Why don't people simplify their movement more if they get you further? Does this apply to the top players as well?

What do you think of the difference between watching someone else's analysis of a match and doing your own analysis?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Just to confirm, are you faking short hop falling through the platform? And baiting him running up underneath you to challenge it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMpUymqNkag

0:36 - Here you get under Peach floating by the ledge and dair her. Is this just an unsafe position for Peach to float at?

0:53 - Were you shielding to cover aerial OOS here after the fair? Why not dash away after the fair in this situation?

0:55 - Was this double jump out of short hop because you realized you short hopped when Peach full hop floated, and were thus in a bad spot? Or is this meant to beat float somehow?

0:56 - Just want to confirm I understand this situation - you dash in when Peach is in your threat range, WD away and observe, then come in when you confirm Peach is in the same position. Peach WD’s away as you begin your short hop so you can’t react. This looks like a really well timed WD back.

1:03 - Is this short dash in long dash away meant to serve as a bait for a falling aerial from float? Then you full dash away -> shine to cover the falling aerial from DJ?

1:15 - What were you waiting for on the side platform after the laser here?

Not necessarily faking falling through, but part of it. And either that or he FHs over me. But my primary intent was probably moreso the FH over since that what he prefers.

Not exactly unsafe, but hard to react at that range and had he drifted in could've hit me on the head.

Fair's landing lag is bad and he likes to FH Bair oos a lot so I reacted to me not hitting shield or him with shield for that.

Yep, reaction to float. May have been able to beat float but it's ugly.

The main problem with this is that I WD'd back a bit too far. It wasn't a good Nair really because it could've also lost to FH Nair OOS he likes to do here. Also he dropped shield before WD back so I should've seen that coming. So kinda sloppy on my end but the movement was well timed and such.

Yeah it was a bait and also a positioning setup. And yes again.

I guess countering if he came into me. Not likely Armada would do it though in retrospect.

Oh so the double jump is like faking an approach? Or are you doing this off of dash back sh in place? What visual cue do you use to confirm into double jump?

Why don't people simplify their movement more if they get you further? Does this apply to the top players as well?

You can just edit your post next time lol.

Yes it's faking an approach, but it can also be a secondary approach in itself. You can't always confirm out of SH and must guess. The beauty of DJ is it lets you react.

Top players tend to simplify more as they get better.

What do you think of the difference between watching someone else's analysis of a match and doing your own analysis?

You get a new perspective, but can lose your own if you aren't also pulling it in. If you do your own, you can get stuck in your own ways of thinking sometimes.

 

[PAWN1]

Not necessarily faking falling through, but part of it. And either that or he FHs over me. But my primary intent was probably moreso the FH over since that what he prefers.

Can you explain why short hopping on the side platform would encourage him to full hop over you? I've been thinking about this for a while and haven't come up with anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMpUymqNkag

1:36 - Confirming I understand this situation - these dashes are just outside of Peach’s threat range of falling aerial, then you wavedash back -> dash away(finish confirming that Peach fell with an aerial, since you know her float time is just about up) -> wavedash back just outside of jab spacing -> dash away dash in grab (beats both falling aerial -> jab and falling aerial -> shield).

Thoughout this game, you usually punish falling aerials with backflip -> aerial or space outside of the aerial a bit more -> turnaround laser. What's the advantage of doing this wavedash back to set up positioning over those other two options?

1:47 - Was this short hop off side platform (confirm Peach’s position) -> up tilt to beat Peach short hop overshoot aerialing? It looks like it would lose to dash attack too.

1:56 - You do this laser (confirm positioning) -> dash forward -> wd down just outside of Peach’s jab/short hop nair range to beat a move in place, right? Though the wavedash gives you time to confirm her moving away from you as well.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Going over me would be going over Bair.

Yeah pretty much. The extra WD time could encourage DA later, let her shield shrink if I confirm something else, and also I don't want to Bair her onto the edge.

Yeah not a great Utilt perhaps, but one that could hit FC Nair. He did end up jumping after all. Armada is not a liberal dash attacker.

Also to see if he will DA or FH. The WD isn't really necessarily since I was stopping at that point anyway, BUT it does look like I started to jump so it may still have been good.

 

[PAWN1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMpUymqNkag

2:38 - This short hop laser was a bait, right?

2:46 - You dash in -> WD back at such close proximity here. Why at such a close spacing compared to vs Fox? Just because Peach is slower and has a smaller threat range OOS?

3:03 - Why this full hop out of the corner after Peach does her falling aerial? I feel as though you could have reacted and punished the aerial here.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Unsure, I remember not being focused that game. It could be either honestly. I think it's more likely it was a bait.

She can't FH hit me OOS, plus I could do it to Fox too if I had advantage like I did there.

I don't think I was prepared for Bair in, but overall yeah I could have. Just less focused.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BqKy-hlpqs

0:14
I do that half dash back laser, what does that do in this position? What does half dash back laser accomplish? What's the difference between shooting a high laser and a mid laser there? What's the point of lasering in that position? What's the most productive thing Falco can do in taht positoin? Is it better to wait or to push space (maybe dash in pivot bair?) What about the next two lasers right after that one?

0:34
Puff goes over my head cause I do that dair that didn'ta ccomplish anything. Even if I hadn't done the dair what should I have done instead. When you are guarding the stage vs puff, do you always have to keep yourself between her and center stage? What could I have done to condition puff to not go there?

0:45
When I land that laser there, how should I be looking to press advantage?

0:49-0:55
What should I have done instead of just giving her the ledge? Does Falco sometimes just have to give Puff the ledge? I think the first refresh I did was okay, I probably could have just baired him.
Do the lasers that I shoot here do anything? I feel like they don't even do taht much vs puff in that position but it feels good to do in game. Is the point of shooting a laser in that position to stall their forward momentum? Damage? Catch them in an awkward spot/drift?

0:56
What do you think of that nair I did? Seems pretty bad partially because I put myself out of TR with that dash back, if the puff is just camping with bairs like that what should I be looking to do?

0:57
What do you think of that defensive dair I did oos? I've seen many falcos go for that including Mango a few times but idk if it's even good considering bair outspaces it

1:08-1:14
How should I have been positioning myself when I first hit him off? Is there any point in moving off of the platform? Should I go to the top plat and cut him off? Were those two lasers I hit him with good or just kinda lucky?

1:18
Is there any point in lasering for "damage" like I did right after I hit that f tilt? (I'm not sure if lasers accomplish anything else in that position besides damage) When puff is in that position is the only way to prevent her from grabbing the ledge by grabbing it yourself in advance?

1:42
Do I have to get on the plat myself in advance in order to deter him from going there? Is there a certain point/space where you have to make a decision to either guard the edge or the platform? I guess he was pretty high up here and last time he was high up he tried to go over me, so I could have used that info.

2:03
After I hit that shine what should I have done to shark her? Do lasers do anything there?

2:26
I'm kinda lost as to what I should be doing in this position. I feel like dropping from the plat is logical because then you can still hit them when they try to land on the side plat, but I've been missing/mistiming this whole game so I guess that maybe goes to show something. What should I have done? Should I have dropped through?

3:18
After up smash how should I have sharked him? Is committing to a full hop/dj bair like I did worth it?

4:32
Was the bair I did good there since it maybe burned his last jump or two? Is there any point in trying to burn his jumps after he's already used the ones that give him height?

I'm asking about sharking/edgeguarding a lot because I'm looking into pushing my advantageous positions. It seems that's the best way to consistently rack up dmg/kill puff instead of winning neutral multiple times and finding a random bair. Would you agree? Do you think it's possible to consistently win those edgeguarding positions?

What's the order of stages you like vs puff? Yoshi's I imagine is the best caues of early shine off the top and bair kills, but after that is fd or ps better? Also what's the difference bteween starting on fod vs bf?

Lot's of Qs ty in advance : ) Appreciate it so much as always

Through some labbing I just figured out that Falco can sh after a shine on puff's shield and avoid puff's frame perfect grab. So then you can do something like no ff laser which "covers" them shielding or wd back or roll back, or just do a late aerial. Seems like a great mixup to shine grab. Maybe possible to react to the direction they roll or wd? Something neat to play around with and I've never seen anyone use this.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Half dash back laser lets you back up a bit and put a laser out. It keeps you close enough to punish but helps you dodge. Both lasers miss, but maybe lower one encourages approach? Either waiting or pushing are fine here, but more lasers generally aren't good because Puff is above laser.

Could've DJ Bair'd out of that SH maybe. FH Bair certainly would've worked out of dash back. It's good to hold center. You can FH/DJ more and she will want to go high less, or get on side platform.

Moving forward some is guaranteed advantage, but you're a bit too far to guaranteed convert off that laser.

Some lasers were good in that they made her jump, but some you shot when they couldn't hit her. You need to not rely on lasers for edgeguarding Puff.

Too far. Laser can be okay, or taking stage. Setting up your own Bair when closer can be good.

It's okay, but you did it when it couldn't hit Puff so it wasn't useful. Not a spammable option in matchup.

Get on platform, work your Bair. Lasers don't matter at that height.

Those lasers are good. Damage is good, and making her jump to avoid it is good. Means you're controlling her and making her lose better jumps. Runoff DJ Dair, DJ Bair onstage, Dsmash, Fsmash, Ftilt would all hit her going for edge from above there.

Answered your own question.

Work your Bair. Lasers were okay that you did, but it's better to threaten hitting a move. BF platform layout can make this kinda dumb, but work your Bair.

Stay on platform. You can't just sit in place. Work your Bair, and if they go away from it, then you laser. If they go high, you work your Bair. You have to not just assume Puff will rush you, she has 5 jumps.

You can SH with him at one diagonal, and if he drops to where you can DJ Bair you can hit. You need to learn where you can confirm this and where they can still get away. Sometimes FH is better. You can lab it.

Not exactly, but mayyybe if you drifted with him you could have still pressured. Probably not though. Whiffing like that usually just lets Puff get down.

It's probably not possible to consistently win edgeguarding positions, but you could do it relatively often I imagine. Count her jumps.

YS generally best but she does get more platform movement there. PS is fairly good. FoD is alright if you can kill off the side since she can't dodge Bair, but your lasers get messed up more there. FD is also kinda alright because you have space but she gets some more space to dodge juggling. BF blast zones kinda far but platforms can help your combos(they can also hurt though because top one is so high....though it can help you kill some too).

 

[NetplayFalco]

Hey PP.

First up thanks for the Puff tips a few pages back. Confident to say I'm decent at the MU now after having no clue about it beforehand.

I have some broad and awkward questions about edgeguarding marth :D

When marth is close enough to the stage that he can stall for a while, but he can't doublejump to grab ledge, how do I make a plan for ledgehogging him?

I understand several mixups marth has, but I don't really know how to counter them. It feels like once I have wavedashed to ledge, I'm really stuck with only a couple stalls and not much ability to trick him with my intentions. It seems like I really edgeguard by instinct, and I have no set idea of what I'm looking for or how I want to respond. As a result, I edgeguard some marths consistently, and other marths I never edgeguard. It's really luck of the draw in terms of what their habits are.

So how do I go about dealing with him? Also let's say that Falco is above knockdown percent, so I can't rely on CC, or go for setups like getting hit by up-b and then doublejumping to punish marth onstage. I mean I don't mind info regarding those setups, but I'm really curious what options I have when getting hit by marth up-b is NOT a good outcome.

I know it's a broad question, sorry haha. I really want to develop a solid plan but at the moment, the whole thing seems so fluid and hard to categorise.

Thanks in advance, love ya PP

 

[Dr Peepee]

You're welcome! Glad it helped =)

If you can consistently (shine) up-B stall, you could do that some so he can't go to edge, then hit him when he goes onstage. You can DJ backward and regrab edge just before/as his up-B goes off if he's only able to ride the wall(you'll grab behind his up-B hitbox, you can test it). The important thing with some stalls is to jump while he's side B'ing, or have invincibility as he has to up-B. That rule combined with other stuff I said may help. If you have a timestamp or two of a situation you or another player struggle with then that may help. Good luckkkk

 

[AnonymousID]

Hey PP, how do you be confident in your gameplan or how can you know that you'll win? I feel like against people who can take 1-3 stocks against me, I always have this feeling that I could lose if they make a couple of right reads, even though empirically I might never lose to them in tournament. Sometimes I get a little scared of trying in friendlies since It seems like I'll get figured out.

I also feel like if I play someone many times eventually I'll lose a couple of random sets and I'm not sure what makes someone consistent (other than just being significantly better than everyone else).

 

[NetplayFalco]

You're welcome! Glad it helped =)

If you can consistently (shine) up-B stall, you could do that some so he can't go to edge, then hit him when he goes onstage. You can DJ backward and regrab edge just before/as his up-B goes off if he's only able to ride the wall(you'll grab behind his up-B hitbox, you can test it). The important thing with some stalls is to jump while he's side B'ing, or have invincibility as he has to up-B. That rule combined with other stuff I said may help. If you have a timestamp or two of a situation you or another player struggle with then that may help. Good luckkkk

okidoke I'll consider these notes thanks

I can upb stall but I don't use it much. I'm not frame perfect so there's a few frames where marth could upb me which is why I don't do it. I'll die if marth clips me during upb stall right? I'll mess around with it regardless

reacting to side-b makes sense. I'll try to time my stalls with marth. how should you react if marth has a doublejump below stage? should I react to that with a doublejump stall as well?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP, how do you be confident in your gameplan or how can you know that you'll win? I feel like against people who can take 1-3 stocks against me, I always have this feeling that I could lose if they make a couple of right reads, even though empirically I might never lose to them in tournament. Sometimes I get a little scared of trying in friendlies since It seems like I'll get figured out.

I also feel like if I play someone many times eventually I'll lose a couple of random sets and I'm not sure what makes someone consistent (other than just being significantly better than everyone else).

If someone knew that you wanted to mix Nair vs Dair on an approach, they might be able to counter. If they knew you might approach or defend at a particular timing, they can no longer be sure. If you have multiple different timings, and do offense or defense within those timings, then they can only learn so much over time. So, the goal is to develop a deep game knowledge and positional awareness and a bag of mixups. Then through playing more you learn how to change that all up better, and if they learn more then it doesn't matter because your plan is just solid. Focusing on what you can gain, or the enjoyment of playing, will lend you to more success than fear of loss.

okidoke I'll consider these notes thanks

I can upb stall but I don't use it much. I'm not frame perfect so there's a few frames where marth could upb me which is why I don't do it. I'll die if marth clips me during upb stall right? I'll mess around with it regardless

reacting to side-b makes sense. I'll try to time my stalls with marth. how should you react if marth has a doublejump below stage? should I react to that with a doublejump stall as well?

Shine up-B might make it more consistent, but yeah it needs to be (pretty) perfect to work. Otherwise you'll need to use different DJ mixups and also stuff like SH'ing over the up-B to grab edge vs Dsmash'ing him etc.

If he has a DJ, you may need to do extra up-B stalls then. Otherwise, you'll need to do a DJ mixup that can include you landing on stage so it's harder for Marth to drift such that he can get around whatever stall you do.

 

[PAWN1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMpUymqNkag

4:10 - After this drop through top platform laser, you dash forward and do nothing. Were you looking to punish a jab or aerial in place here?

4:12 - Did you set up a tomahawk but then react to the roll in, letting you get this dair when coming in after Peach did a falling aerial?

4:22 - Is shining after grabbing and seeing them spotdodge something that should always work? Or is there a mixup here?

4:58 - Just to confirm what's going on during this dash sequence - after getting this laser on shield, you do a short dash in -> long dash away to bait out an option (bair OOS or roll in?) and see that she rolled away, then do 3 short dashes looking to wait out a move in place like jab or nair in place, then come in with a nair.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Probably expected him to start up a float or WD back or shield there I guess.

I could have done a lot out of the SH in, such as Bair him if he kept shielding and kept center. Him Bair'ing there opens him up to more pressure in general since Bair is smaller than Fair.

Not sure, Peach's spotdodge is fairly good. Worth testing though.

It was a bad play because I attacked from too far away, but yeah that's mostly it.

 

[Meck]

After not taking Melee seriously for a year, I started trying these past 3 months. I thought it was going to take a few months to start seeing results but 2 months in I started getting ranked wins. This was very unexpected. My mentality used to be that wins don't matter and improvement is the long term goal. It was easy to tell myself this when I didn't get any wins. Getting wins has inflated my ego and I'm having trouble managing my expectations. I have a good mentality for playing people better than me because I have nothing to lose. I get the most nervous against people who are worse than me. Most of my fears are premature and it doesn't really affect me while playing. Even when I lose to these people, I quickly move on. How do I shape my mentality against someone who is about my level or worse than me?

How does Falco deal with a Fox dash dancing in out of Falco's threat zone? I feel like at this range Falco has to make a read to win the interaction but Fox can just react. If I know he's going to continue to dash dance, I try to do a full distance dair but he has enough time to dash back. If I expect him to go in, I try to bair/uptilt in place, but I usually get punished for it because they are trying to bait out me preemptively throwing an attack. My ideas were to laser in or place or slight approach laser to close the distance. And also mixing in half distance aerial to get him to believe I am doing the full distance aerial.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ultimately, it's like any other match. You need to beat them so do your best to do that. Dealing with the thoughts specifically, you can say that if they beat you then maybe you're not so much better than them than you thought. Better or worse only matter when not playing, but once you have to play someone then you should think totally of how to win and the matchup etc. All matches are also chances to learn.

Laser in place, faking an approach with dash in laser in place or half dash back laser are all good, or you can move under a platform and get the laser out to establish control again.

 

[flyboy__]

Ultimately, it's like any other match. You need to beat them so do your best to do that. Dealing with the thoughts specifically, you can say that if they beat you then maybe you're not so much better than them than you thought. Better or worse only matter when not playing, but once you have to play someone then you should think totally of how to win and the matchup etc. All matches are also chances to learn.

Laser in place, faking an approach with dash in laser in place or half dash back laser are all good, or you can move under a platform and get the laser out to establish control again.

PP, what's the benefit of moving under a platform to laser? Do you just mean back up to establish solid laser pressure?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Fox can't FH on top of you if you're under it sufficiently(on most levels).

 

[R3_]

hey PP, was wondering why you were going for nair so much here at low %. Were you trying to read a jump from Shroomed or was it something else?
https://youtu.be/OjP8wbNkv1g?t=79

Here you missed the shine because Sheiks hurtbox is in silly mode, is this a good option that just wasn't close enough or would something like ledgehop dair have worked better in this scenario?
https://youtu.be/OjP8wbNkv1g?t=99

Also what are some good options vs Sheik when shes at centre stage and you're trying to get out of the corner. I've noticed in this vod that you use a lot of laser at the start but are there any other really good options in that situation?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Probably a jump read, but also sometimes they don't react easily if you do a more unsafe one on shield.

Edgehop Dair is pretty good here since it doesn't knock down, but you do have to worry about SDI away admittedly. So shine is probably the best overall option, or Bthrow if you think you can convert. Hitting shine on their left side is best imo so edgedash into that might be the strongest.

Yolo Dair, FH to top platform, get on side platform and falling laser(this one isn't so good if you think she will approach with SH obv), slight forward laser.

 

[R3_]

Thanks heaps, what exactly does a slight forward laser look like. Is it dash > let go of stick > laser > fast fall?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yes, but you can move forward less if you dash back then dash in and do that. I practice this on stream if you're interested.

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

I know this is kind of a general question, but what should Falco be trying to do in the ICs matchup? All I really keep in mind is to do mega late aerials and try to kill Nana, but what are a couple of more specific openings to look for and defensive stances to default to? Other threads on the matter would also be helpful.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I like spacing Dair/Nair/Bair on their shield. If they try to WD in I can shine, and if they jump I can either aerial or move back and laser and space again. If they roll in I can often shine or space anyway. Wait out blizzard or try to go over it if the other climber isn't covering it, or hit them before/as it comes out. Shine one climber up and hit the other forward. Fthrow knocks them into each other at low percent.

 

[MegaAmoonguss]

Thanks! I also wanted to ask about the use of platforms. I've heard that there's not much ICs can do if Falco is just camping the top platform, as they basically can just up air and you can try to dodge it and come down with a back air. How do you see the platforms playing into the matchups, especially the side platforms that I'm not as sure about the safety of? Is it better to be there or to try to carefully keep ground out of wavedash -> smash attack range?

 

[Dr Peepee]

On BF/DL you could play a more successful keepaway game there if you wanted, but it's much harder to do on the other levels I believe. When ICs jump, they often lose their resilience from the ground, so as long as you don't get Uair'd you can get them. But it's a slow match if they just also wait so it's up to you.

Edit: I don't think you need the platforms though, but it's a personal choice.

 

[Coccinelle]

Something that struck me in footage of top Falco players like Larry lurr or Trixx is that I found they don't seem to go off stage that much in many of their games. Any comments on this? Could you elaborate on edgeguarding with Falco besides going off stage (I mean when staying on the ledge)?

 

[Guidodinho]

Hey guys.
I'm starting to analyze some footage I manage to get recorded at my local weeklies. I'm getting close to where I want to be when it comes to my movement. Though I can practice fancy movements till the cows come home, that wont do much good when my decision making and punish game leave much to be desired, wich is generally where I drop the ball the most.
So I had a weekly where I could hog the recording setup for a couple of matches. First set is me getting my ass handed to me by Avalancer (now going by the tag Nebbii). Also happens to be my favorite Yoshi player and probably favorite dutch player in general. Still have a long way to go, to get head to head with him. But in the first set already, I noticed I missed a lot of opportunities, with a couple of speciffic situations I could use some advice with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwMfiZnL1PU

1
So first off at 31:07, the first hit I land on him is an upthrow after wich I follow him to the top platform with a fullhop B-air. I did manage to get some lucky hits in after that, but if he was on point there I'd deffinetly wouldn't have gotten away with that (I think he could've easily shielded then punish me with a shielddrop into an u-air). That rising B-air was obviously pretty useless. So the question here is, what would be the correct follow-up in this situation, after the throw? Should I just have possitioned that B-air better by dashing forward a bit beforehand? Or wasn't there even a reliable follow-up situation to begin with? In wich case I wonder if it would've been better to stay bellow him and try to keep center stage there.

2
A different situation, where I deffinetly could've made more out of, is at 31:25. Where Nebbii input his F-air a bit late. I manage to land a shine there, probably not the best option, but with his DI goin outward, it gave me an edgeguard opportunity.
Now this is a mistake I often seem to make where I automatically go for one of my favorite of-stage edgeguards, where I try to get bellow my opponent a bit, wait in my shine, then rise up with a b-air to prevent my opponent from getting back. One obvious fault there is my positioning. I shined too early, leaving me right above him. Then when I jump back with the b-air, he follows me, hits an u-air, then turns the tables and takes my stock.

Main question here being: was the option to go off-stage with a shine-turnaround-Bair viable to begin with? Would it have worked with propper execution, if I hadn't SH-hopped off but just ran off, so I would've been bellow or right next to him? I think in this matchup specifically, it only would've worked if I'd hit both the shine and b-air, or he'd flutter through it anyway.
But probably a better question to ask here: is what would've been a more safe and reliable edgeguard option to choose from right there after I hit that shine?

3
Last situation I'd like to dig into for now is at 32:47. Where I land a shine and immediatly fullhop after him, I deffinetly could've hit a D-air right after, but I thought I needed to correct my positioning, so I doublejumped then D-aired too late and missed, returning to neutral game.
So how would I get the most out of this situation? Would trying to pillar him there give me the best opportunity to continue combo-ing him. Or could I get a better combo off of that shine if i'd went for the platform and just uptilt there for example?

_____________________________________________________________

Those are some questions right off the bat, when it comes to analysing my own games. Still rather new for me when it comes to that, so other tips for analysing and theorycrafting would also be greatly appreciated. Like how to spot patterns when it comes to making similar mistakes and how to go about ironing them out. And stuff like, what would be good questions to ask myself when looking back recorded matches.

Cheers!

Guido.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Something that struck me in footage of top Falco players like Larry lurr or Trixx is that I found they don't seem to go off stage that much in many of their games. Any comments on this? Could you elaborate on edgeguarding with Falco besides going off stage (I mean when staying on the ledge)?

This is a Melee thread, sorry!

Hey guys.
I'm starting to analyze some footage I manage to get recorded at my local weeklies. I'm getting close to where I want to be when it comes to my movement. Though I can practice fancy movements till the cows come home, that wont do much good when my decision making and punish game leave much to be desired, wich is generally where I drop the ball the most.
So I had a weekly where I could hog the recording setup for a couple of matches. First set is me getting my ass handed to me by Avalancer (now going by the tag Nebbii). Also happens to be my favorite Yoshi player and probably favorite dutch player in general. Still have a long way to go, to get head to head with him. But in the first set already, I noticed I missed a lot of opportunities, with a couple of speciffic situations I could use some advice with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwMfiZnL1PU

1
So first off at 31:07, the first hit I land on him is an upthrow after wich I follow him to the top platform with a fullhop B-air. I did manage to get some lucky hits in after that, but if he was on point there I'd deffinetly wouldn't have gotten away with that (I think he could've easily shielded then punish me with a shielddrop into an u-air). That rising B-air was obviously pretty useless. So the question here is, what would be the correct follow-up in this situation, after the throw? Should I just have possitioned that B-air better by dashing forward a bit beforehand? Or wasn't there even a reliable follow-up situation to begin with? In wich case I wonder if it would've been better to stay bellow him and try to keep center stage there.

2
A different situation, where I deffinetly could've made more out of, is at 31:25. Where Nebbii input his F-air a bit late. I manage to land a shine there, probably not the best option, but with his DI goin outward, it gave me an edgeguard opportunity.
Now this is a mistake I often seem to make where I automatically go for one of my favorite of-stage edgeguards, where I try to get bellow my opponent a bit, wait in my shine, then rise up with a b-air to prevent my opponent from getting back. One obvious fault there is my positioning. I shined too early, leaving me right above him. Then when I jump back with the b-air, he follows me, hits an u-air, then turns the tables and takes my stock.

Main question here being: was the option to go off-stage with a shine-turnaround-Bair viable to begin with? Would it have worked with propper execution, if I hadn't SH-hopped off but just ran off, so I would've been bellow or right next to him? I think in this matchup specifically, it only would've worked if I'd hit both the shine and b-air, or he'd flutter through it anyway.
But probably a better question to ask here: is what would've been a more safe and reliable edgeguard option to choose from right there after I hit that shine?

3
Last situation I'd like to dig into for now is at 32:47. Where I land a shine and immediatly fullhop after him, I deffinetly could've hit a D-air right after, but I thought I needed to correct my positioning, so I doublejumped then D-aired too late and missed, returning to neutral game.
So how would I get the most out of this situation? Would trying to pillar him there give me the best opportunity to continue combo-ing him. Or could I get a better combo off of that shine if i'd went for the platform and just uptilt there for example?

_____________________________________________________________

Those are some questions right off the bat, when it comes to analysing my own games. Still rather new for me when it comes to that, so other tips for analysing and theorycrafting would also be greatly appreciated. Like how to spot patterns when it comes to making similar mistakes and how to go about ironing them out. And stuff like, what would be good questions to ask myself when looking back recorded matches.

Cheers!

Guido.

You can't follow that Uthrow up unless he DIs differently, but rather than depend on that you could have walked shine or Dair'd into him since he was in Dsmash lag.

I think he can armor through your Bair at that percent so I wouldn't recommend it anyway. But also if you did run off he could maybe have DJ'd earlier to go above you? Maybe you can react and go back onstage but it feels rough to me. Running off and shining his low DJ is an ideal here, but he probably wouldn't have dropped so low if you were in position to do this. I like hitting him as he's coming out of DJ/does his aerial/in landing lag so he can't armor through if I can't shine his jump or break it with Bair/Dair.

Yeah you should just DJ there to get high enough up either way. You could have done a falling Bair/Nair as well to push Yoshi to the side so he has to DJC into you or DJ above you, which can both be good for you. The Dair likely wouldn't have directly comboed but it can depend. You can also just shine Bair in situations similar to that to just take the damage.

The main thing with analyzing is just to do it and see patterns. So why a hit happens and find out what habits you have or what you're losing to or what positions are difficult for you are good, or how to combo harder and making guesses and testing it out is also good.

 

[Guidodinho]

Thanks for the insight dude! I think a little something just klicked right there, realising I often don't anticipate opponent's landings with arials I can punish. And deffensively I get punished too often like that myself, landing with arials too carefree and either hitting unsafely on shield or getting outspaced with dash dances when I land.

 

[R3_]

What are the most common options people do out of laser at low-mid level of play? I think it would be like Shield and Jump right, otherwise they just get stuck in movement? And then dashback and CC would become more common at mid level?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Depends on how much people work on it, but yeah shield and maybe attack out of it. Dash back sometimes. Later you probably get more of the CC and dash back stuff I imagine.

 

[flyboy__]

I wanted to ask you how to approach 50/50s, because recently I am really feeling on my back foot/like a big dummy whenever I am adapting to my opponent. I outlined an example below.

Scenario where you are getting techchased by Marth, specifically after Falco does a tech roll. If Falco dashback lasers, Marth can cover it with a tipper dash attack. If Falco dash in aerials, Marth can cover it with his own dashback grab.

Maybe this is too broad, but how to I improve my choices in this 50/50, or 50/50s in general? Am I looking at this the right way? I feel like I always pick the wrong option, but maybe I'm only looking at the negatives.

 

[Dr Peepee]

The Marth may be waiting slightly to confirm and can afford to do so in this case since you aren't FH'ing, retreating farther, etc. I honestly find that if you can relax in those situations, they can give you some important information just as you're getting out of tech. If they dash away such that they can't grab, it may not be good to yolo in because they will be farther away and can react easier. It's more likely that dash back(maybe fully retreating instead) laser is good here. It may help to analyze or at least hyperfocus on this moment and see if it helps you.

If not, it can help to just force yourself to include more of what I said before, and just not do this time what you did last time.

 

[R3_]

Hey PP, I just wanted to ask what is your most common type of laser to use in neutral. I know lasers are situational but which one comes up in most neutral scenarios?

Edit: I just realised this is probably a matchup based question lol so lets just say in the fox matchup

 

[Dr Peepee]

I tend to like half dash back turnaround laser a lot, and that is true for Fox as well. It depends on the type of Fox of course, as more aggressive Foxes I may want to back up more against them. I also like dash forward stop then laser in place vs Fox so I can pressure a FH landing or defensive option.

 

[R3_]

Thank you. Something I've recently added to my daily execution practice is corner pressure where I just repeat fade back dair, sh high bair, utilt and dashback laser/laser in place in any order in centre stage. I was wondering if there was anything else I should throw in there?