PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[AnonymousID]

Hey PP can you talk about flow?

I remember a while back there was some discussion about flow and someone mentioned the book 'The Rise of Superman' which I read. I believe I've entered flow states in melee before, where I'm at peak focus, everything is so clear, my subconscious takes over and I play incredibly well but I don't think I can reliably get into that state. I'm also unsure if in those moments my opponent is just playing bad, but the feeling is just so diffirent.

It also seems that flow is just when you're really focused on the game and not having external thoughts which I assume meditating would help. However I feel like flow is more than just that.

There's a point in the book that really caught my eye, which was that when you're in a flow state, you'll remember that experience which will increase your skill even more rapidly since your brain holds onto memorable moments. I think the book said something about people learning twice as fast? From this it seems like I should always try to flow in melee, but sometimes I think it's important for your conscious mind to fix your mistakes. So I'm not sure how to apply this to melee.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Being just outside of her Ftilt range, or just in it I suppose, encourages Ftilt. If you laser her and it hits her then there's a decent chance Ftilt can follow. Sometimes if she jumps back like you said, it can be hard to get into the perfect range to punish, but if you get closer with laser and then react you can still punish as Ftilt has a lot of lag. You just need to be careful not to wait too much since that can be exploited.

But to put myself in that waiting range in the first place should I be looking to discourage anything else besides dash attack? I know dash attack is really risky for sheik so probably doesn't take that much to discourage them, and you can randomly jump over it with back flip late bair or sh laser sometimes.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP can you talk about flow?

I remember a while back there was some discussion about flow and someone mentioned the book 'The Rise of Superman' which I read. I believe I've entered flow states in melee before, where I'm at peak focus, everything is so clear, my subconscious takes over and I play incredibly well but I don't think I can reliably get into that state. I'm also unsure if in those moments my opponent is just playing bad, but the feeling is just so diffirent.

It also seems that flow is just when you're really focused on the game and not having external thoughts which I assume meditating would help. However I feel like flow is more than just that.

There's a point in the book that really caught my eye, which was that when you're in a flow state, you'll remember that experience which will increase your skill even more rapidly since your brain holds onto memorable moments. I think the book said something about people learning twice as fast? From this it seems like I should always try to flow in melee, but sometimes I think it's important for your conscious mind to fix your mistakes. So I'm not sure how to apply this to melee.

I suppose, ideally, you could always flow and record yourself so you can analyze and build afterward. I am not sure how reliable this is anyway, but having a median between conscious and unconscious play is fine, and anyway a pretty good thing to be able to do since you never know what may affect you during or before tournament.

I agree that meditation would increase flow, as it seems to have done in my experience along with exercise(running). My belief in relaxation producing flow may be worth mentioning, and if so then posture and more importantly psychological tension should be addressed to help achieve flow more often. Also flow tends to come at a point where you are challenged at the point where you're not overstressed skill-wise, so flow may not always be possible in training or in every tournament match.

But to put myself in that waiting range in the first place should I be looking to discourage anything else besides dash attack? I know dash attack is really risky for sheik so probably doesn't take that much to discourage them, and you can randomly jump over it with back flip late bair or sh laser sometimes.

Yeah it's not something you'll likely get punished for often. Just looking for occasional RC Dsmash/Ftilt or DA should be fine, in addition to SH forward Fair over the laser.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Being just outside of her Ftilt range, or just in it I suppose, encourages Ftilt. If you laser her and it hits her then there's a decent chance Ftilt can follow. Sometimes if she jumps back like you said, it can be hard to get into the perfect range to punish, but if you get closer with laser and then react you can still punish as Ftilt has a lot of lag. You just need to be careful not to wait too much since that can be exploited.

https://vods.co/v/rjpzdb

0:08
Why do you do high nair? Did you see that fly did that wd and decided to do high nair instead of late nair or laser or empty land shine? How does the mixup of early aerial, late aerial, laser, and empty land shine work against icies? AKA which options in this mixup should I be skewing towards because I'm trying to avoid the grab but also don't want to lose to random jabs or dash attacks?

Is nair or dair normally better for approaching? Dair has an easier ff timing because you can use the c stick but also nair is more + on shield. Also seems like you have to use early aerials sometimes when you go in so that you don't get wd back dsmashed or simply dash attacked during your sh approach.

0:10
Right after the pressure sequence you back off with full dash away laser. Why not try to go for nana in that position? Was it simply not feasible cuase popo was actionable?

0:13
You do that sh in dj fake. That seems really good and spammable against icies. Am I right in thinking this? If I am what makes it so good?

0:16
You fh out of the pressure sequence but fly gets you with fh uair. Full hopping here doesn't seem great to me because it's fd so no platforms and icies have that huge priority up air. Was it a tech error or is full hopping out of pressure on icies shield a good thing to do simply because it's low execution and gets you out of the potentially scary high execution and sometimes random feeling pressure against icies?

1:12 (the same exact sequence happens again at 1:20)
similarly you do that sh in shine (before landing) and then dj away. That seems so good wtfff?? I guess fly could have wd towards you instead of fh up air but still, you get an opening out of it.

Also you do it again at 1:17 and fly even reacted to you but you still avoided his wd forward f smash.

I'm noticing in all of the sequences of you vs sopo you tend to go for only one or two lasers before getting close to sopo and then baiting with wd back/dd. Why do you choose to opt for this strategy instead of simply laser f tilting, laser grabbing, doing fd sh dairs, back flip late bairs? My neutral vs sopo pretty much boils down to those four things, how do you think falco should fight sopo?

2:24
Why do you opt for f smash here? I've tried to stay away from f smash in that situation because nana is so close to you that falco can get that upwards f smash instead of the outwards sending one. Would you still have done the f smash in hindsight?

2:31
You do that sh in dj fake, but this you drift in. Is drifitng in a necessary mixup that you have to do in order to make fading back safer? Drifting in seems really risky, especially in that situation that you did it because you dj so early and committed to the drift early, as well as the fact that fly wasn't desynced. But also you got away with it by drifting back at the last second so maybe I'm wrong.

2:33
What should you have done instead of hitting nana with that weak bair? Even though you got the shine on nana would it be better to go for popo here? This seems like a super tough decision to make in the moment because popo has his back turned so he has access to sh bair (and fh bair which he got you with) but also you're at high percent so committing to hitting nana can potentially get falco hit. This position perplexes me because it feels intuitive to not go for nana after hitting that juicy shine on her so going for sopo might be what I'm leaning towards now in this specific instance. Can these kind of complicated decisions even be made in match? There's so much info to process at each time that it seems easier to come up with hard and fast rules outside of the match about who to combo and chase to follow before playing.

2:37
You do that up b a lot, right away from the edge, but really close and slightly higher (so you can't get ice blocked?). And then you up b to the ledge. Is this up b still good? Feels like there's a possibility that that up b was only good in the meta at the time.

3:21
Why did you back throw there?

3:30
Why did you dair nana there? Did you think it was going to kill? What should you have done instead?

3:40
You do approaching laser d tilt. D tilt feels super good against icies cause they slide so much if it hits their shield, it can lead to combos at mid percents, and you can spam it out of cc. But how do you set up the conditioning so that you don't get shield grabbed after the approaching laser? Simply with laser in shine?

How are you supposed to DI sopo's up throw? Does this change with percent? Also for down throw you're supposed to di away starting at midish percents to avoid d smash correct?

What is the reward that Falco gets for lasering icies? I'm asking because I know that if they wd in then the laser only hits one and you can still get buffer DA/down smashed/jabbed by the other. If they move backwards laser seems amazing because it desyncs them which, correct me if I'm wrong, but going in while they're desynced seems like the best time.

What about if you hit icies while they're just standing doing nothing? Does the icies player just have to wait for them to sync up again to move again? So essentially hitting one means hitting both in that situation? Do you think hitting a laser on a synced, standing icies warrants going in (obviously I'm asking this situation in a vacuum there's conditioning and prior situations that you can get info off of and ranges matter too but yeah) or should/can falco wait for different situations to arise before approaching?

Do you think waiting and not interacting on side plat is good against icies? I'm starting to not think this anymore because of their super fast wd fh bair/sh uair. Or does going in tend to be a better gameplan against them because they can't cover that aerial space in front of them?

What's the difference between grabbing popo and nana? Is f throw and d throw pretty much always preferable no matter who you grab? Is it ever worth it to pummel if you grab popo?

Do you have rules that you follow for who you combo? I've heard before that popo is better to go for if you're ahead and nana is better when you're behind, except on yoshi's where you can kill nana super consistently from a shine off the ground by linking into shine up b off the top. I've also heard that with falco since his moves tend to combo up and down better than horizontally that you want to keep them both separated as much as possible instead of focusing on just one.

Do you have any general tips against icies lol I'm just learning this matchup now cause I finally have to out of necessity.

TY : )

 

[Dr Peepee]

Should've done a Dair, but thought he might have moved away from me. I like Dair more if you think you'll hit, and Nair more if you're unsure or you think you'll hit shield. Low percent, low Dair is obviously the best overall but you lose to them doing any move early or middle timing then. WD back Dsmash shouldn't be an issue ordinarily, but DA can be, and that's why pullback Dair can be good vs ICs since it beats their moves and can often keep you out of range of grab.

Thought I would've been DA'd by popo, but I may have been able to shine WD away.

Yeah Shiz taught it to me. It's good because they want to always shield grab and it's fairly good at poking. Even if they just shield you condition them to shield vs aerial in, and can sometimes punish their Uair OOS even if they're ready for it. Don't do it every single time, mix with spaced Nair/Dair or late aerial directly on them at least, and maybe some other shine mixup idk.

Was worried about Bair OOS iirc, but also could help me punish if I did hit them. I think it was an error due to Bair OOS fear though.

Watched my first two sopo interactions and I do not recommend using that stuff at all. You don't need laser Ftilt really, and you surely don't need to grab. You invalidate him with Dair, and can space Nair and sometimes Bair if needed too. Just laser, no need for those deep ones I did, and dash in to get into range and just space a mid Dair on him and laser if he moves back. It's pretty easy since he's a bad character, you just have to not yolo or give up laser control like I was doing.

Uhh I think Fsmash was okay, but I thought it would send her farther lol. Even if she goes up it's still okay, since putting one up and then the other is a fine way to punish. I could have just done an early/mid Nair to push her out and then either pushed her again or threatened to etc based on what popo did as I came out of lag. Knowing now that Nana didn't go anywhere, I'd either retime the Fsmash, do a shine to launch her, or just Nair. I guess I could Utilt too but I like the distance and time shine gives.

It's a bit different than hitting shine on shield here, because it's a full approach mixup which I do think is good even on FD as you've seen. Fly was running in when I DJ'd, so I assumed he would dash attack me such as if I had been starting up a laser approach. When I saw he shielded, I faded back, which worked well. My main issue here is that the mixup itself is inherently riskier than I prefer due to their Uair, and I gave him decent time to be ready for it by using SH shine DJ mixup more and also SH'ing in from farther away which would prime him. In itself, the mixup is good though because it mixes with regular approaching aerials and laser and even WL back or empty land etc.

I think I could have drifted away more/walked away more and then Bair would have hit safely. I think, if I were worried about Fly reacting and WD FH Uair'ing or something, I may have been better off pressuring the back of his shield, which is very weak for him. Grabbing and Uthrowing, maybe Fthrowing could have been okay too, but of course you ideally want laser time to set that up, which helps Nana get close to him again. Bair spacing on his shield pushes him away and lets Nana fall nearby so you can hit her again, which I think is also a fine option.

It's okay vs ICs since they don't usually want to go out there, and he was covering side B a lot so I kept getting at side B height to make him keep covering it. But yeah, it also just worked better back then and isn't as good now.

Thought he might have stayed in shield and reacted slowly so I could shine his WD OOS lag, but I think Dthrow would've been better.

Yes. I should have dash FH strong Bair'd then FF'd to play the popo position(maybe DJ Dair'd), or I should have dash FH Fair'd to push Nana far away and give her a lot of damage to set up Dair. That first Nair I did to set it up was kinda weird and I probably should have just Bair'd instead of hoping to rush it there with that Nair like I did.

So I thought the answer to this was to just kind of space the Dtilt outside of grab range and/or do a low enough laser so you have frame advantage, but at Apex 2015 in pools some ICs I played was grabbing spaced Dtilt so I wasn't sure if it was legit or not. It's something that I've heard said doesn't work(the grab) since then so I just need to look at it again.

I think you DI it up slightly forward and maybe mix with slightly backward. That's what it looks like some Falcos are doing that get out of the punish anyway. I think always DI'ing Dthrow away is best.

If you laser Popo on their approach it's best because that gives you more time to act if they just shove Nana through. Most of the time it doesn't look like they go for this thankfully, plus it's hard to always set up well, since if you do a mid or late laser you can just shield this DA. Not what you want to do after laser, but the DA could probably be reactable with practice. So anyway, laser is generally good for frame advantage and disruption then, but it also serves to freely desync them which is a great plus.

ICs players don't have to sync fully since Nana can get kind of close and begin acting with you, but she also follows you so if you always go in on laser contact they can just move back and punish and Nana will either be clipped or also dodge. Still, it's good for you and it's good to move forward in some type of approach then. Again, if unsure, SH in pullback Dair would be helpful in many situations. Hard to convert off of at lower percents.

I don't think you need to do that camping stuff, and given how much you can get punished for getting double Uair'd it's not worth it to me. You should be able to retain control on the ground just fine, but playing aerial mixups is good. Hitting their weak spot, the diagonal up and in front of them, is of course easier from platforms.

Bthrow can be good if it throws them into each other, and Uthrow as well. Uthrow can also be good if one is just coming down and you want to put the other up. Depends on how much time you have and their percents and the spacing of all parties.

I just want the launch with shine, and then to begin hitting them with Bair or shine as much as possible. Good damage, good separation. Force Popo to run into Bair and then push him away and/or shine Nana again and continue. I prefer killing Nana whenever possible because it's just easier and less time-consuming, but if you know where your free Popo kills are then of course go for it.

 

[Jchuk]

What is the objective of a laser?

When does a laser not accomplish it's goal?

What information is most important to fully take advantage of a laser?

How does the spacing between you and your opponent affect their decision making out of laser stun?

What can a Falco do to make their lasering more deliberate/purposeful?

Common laser setups to scout for information on an opponent?

How can I ask better questions about laser/ all of Falco's tools in general?

 

[Dr Peepee]

A laser forces a reaction/grants frame advantage/grants and establishes tempo/covers the space in front of you/deals damage/etc.

A laser generally doesn't work if you get hit out of the startup or if you get hit as it misses.

The properties of the laser, the conditioning, the tools of the opponent, the position of the stage and percent, but the first 2 or 3 would be best to focus on.

If you can directly punish, they are likely to shield. If you have advantage if you both do a move, they may shield or otherwise dodge. If you're in range to have advantage on their approach but not on their defense, they are more likely to choose defense.

Change the starting position of a laser, change what you do before and after the laser(after being quite important...most people do the same dash or same aerials with little change). Practicing these mixups helps a lot, and helps you consider how the opponent is affected by the mixup.

Dash in laser in place. Dash back laser in place. Anything between those two or faking one and doing the other. Laser itself gives you information as it forces a reaction as well.

Look over previous conversations, such as mine with Yort initially. Practice doing simple tech and how it works best for you and how it affects the opponent. Build basic theories and test them, then come to me after working on them so we work on it together.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

A laser forces a reaction/grants frame advantage/grants and establishes tempo/covers the space in front of you/deals damage/etc.

A laser generally doesn't work if you get hit out of the startup or if you get hit as it misses.

The properties of the laser, the conditioning, the tools of the opponent, the position of the stage and percent, but the first 2 or 3 would be best to focus on.

If you can directly punish, they are likely to shield. If you have advantage if you both do a move, they may shield or otherwise dodge. If you're in range to have advantage on their approach but not on their defense, they are more likely to choose defense.

Change the starting position of a laser, change what you do before and after the laser(after being quite important...most people do the same dash or same aerials with little change). Practicing these mixups helps a lot, and helps you consider how the opponent is affected by the mixup.

Dash in laser in place. Dash back laser in place. Anything between those two or faking one and doing the other. Laser itself gives you information as it forces a reaction as well.

Look over previous conversations, such as mine with Yort initially. Practice doing simple tech and how it works best for you and how it affects the opponent. Build basic theories and test them, then come to me after working on them so we work on it together.

Thanks in advance for answering all of these, you don't have to do it all at once : )

Hi PP just read over the posts where you and yort discussed edgeguarding puff and peach last summer, interesting stuff and he asked you about all the basics so I'm just gonna ask about specific positions.

But first just to reiterate the process of edgeguarding puff is cover her going high and going into you so that you force her going to the ledge? And then when she tries to takes ledge or come into you while you're guarding the ledge you hit her?

https://vods.co/v/gkhwwj

0:20
Big kid gets hit by the bair, then lint does a bunch of (pointless I think) movement and lets big kid onto the side platform easily. If the movement wasn't pointless what did it accomplish? How much does falco want to move while edgeguading puff compared to in neutral? I'm guessing it's very little after you positino yourself correctly so that you have more access to up tilt while still staying conscious of the fact taht you can wd back fh bair or move away. What should lint have done? Seems like he backed away pretty early and that let big kid come in and essentially reset to neutral. I'm thinking lint should have either stood with his back turned to the ledge a little ways away (like he was standing before he moved) or he should have jumped to side plat and stood near the edge of the platform with his back turned as well. What is puff's basic response to falco standing still like that in those two positions?

Also that same position happens again in the next interaction basically at 0:26 where lint does a bunch of grounded movement but let's big kid down. What dfo you think of his movement or is it simply passive movement?

Is shooting lasers even worth it? I feel like it's probably better to shoot lasers to cover them drifting down to better burn their jumps, but that's about the only reason I see lasers being useful besides catching them coming into you at the ledge maybe to link into f tilt or f smash.

0:35
BK misses the edgeguard and lint gets the edge. Is that bair your only option in that position? I'm thinking dj off of the ledge and barely drift onto stage would be okay too because that threatens bair on the way down to clip the ledge but then you can just choose not to do the bair and do DAFT instead. Do you think yort could have done dj refresh in that position? Or is that too risky? Is up b refresh worth it or are those few frames that are inevitably imperfect not worth it cause of puff's long lasting moves?

You and yort briefly talked about DAFT back then, but how does it interact with puff swinging at you/your leg? I'm wondering about uair, fair, and bair. Does DAFT cover them coming at the ledge from below. If you miss a DAFT and they get ledge, do you pretty much always have to shield or wd back or roll back?

Also after that last interaction BK then does a tournament winner while lint goes for the full hop bair. Can you label this whole position as an edgeguard position? It seems kinda overzealous to say that cause puff has all of her options and is close to the stage. What I'm trying to say is is playing this position different from playing an "edgeguard" situation and if yes then how should falco play it differently and how have his goals changed?

0:40
At this point I'm guessing that lint's movement doesn't really matter because BK just knows that lint will be passive and let him onto side plat and/or ledge. But if not then what do you think lint's movement accomplished? This time it looks like he did that dj fall through side plat and then also that wd towards BK into dash away which I find interesting. Was that bair that BK did before he grab the ledge pointless? If it was how could have lint taken advantage of that and covered the ledge?

0:44
What do you think of this interaction where BK is on the ledge and then lint just let's him back on. Is backing up that much ever productive?

1:42
This time lint moved back a lot like he normally does but he got a bair out of it because BK pounded. Do you think while BK was still high up that lint should have stayed on the platform?

1:49
This time BK goes up which seems worse against what lint is prepared to cover, and this interaction does work out in lint's favor. What do you think of that shine stall up air that lint did? Is shine stalling like that good to threaten bair for longer periods of time to potentially burn more of their jumps? Also what did lint do well that allowed him to get the bair?

1:52
Lint just let's him back onto the edge for free again, how should he be covering that?

https://vods.co/v/krqhkz New set because lint was playing the same passive style over and over again

0:48
This interaction of TRT trying to go for a follow up on the bair he hit is interesting to me because I think the option he used can be reapplied in an edgeguard scenario. So if puff were jumping around in that range in an edgegaurd situation, can Falco jump out their with forward momentum and then upp back with that dj? I'm guessing the whole time the only thing you're really threatening is just a dair to cover them coming into you, but bair can beat that if they're ready. What do you think?

1:25
After hitting those two lasers I'm guessing TRT should have stayed on the plat and turned around to threaten fh bair to cover hbox going high, if TRT has already established that coniditioning then how should he have played the position from there instead of dropping down and backing up?

2:29
What do you think of that whole sequence until TRT catches hbox drifiting into the ground with wd back up tilt? Did those lasers accomplish anything? Did going onto the top plat itself prevent hbox from flying over him?

2:50
Not exactly edgeguarding but how do you shark puff from the top plat? I've always found it awkward because her coming in with her nair has always been hard to deal with for me.

3:20 This seems like the most proactive either of the falco's have been in the edgeguard situation. You were right when you said in that past that no one really does it. Were TRT's lasers good even though they didn't hit? He was able to back up after landing which means they weren't terrible at least. Why do you think hbox choose to go in when TRT gave him edge for free? If the puff simply decides to go for edge there how do you cover that? Back up a little and then do low or mid laser?

https://vods.co/v/swqjjp
0:49, a new position. How should rocky have covered the puff going into ledge from below?

Just went through the first couple vods of the top falco's playing against puffs on vods.co and basically none of them edgegaurded puff!!! Except mango once in the first game vs hbox at gtx lol. Why do you think this aspect of the matchup is so out of the meta?

Also how do you beat falcon's sh knee at you without trading with it?

 

[Dr Peepee]

That general outline is true for Puff, but you need to adjust with her weaves and jumps as you do your own setups if you want.

First vid:

He moves away a bit to cover Puff going over him, but then doesn't cover Puff coming down. You don't need to spam movement, just reposition as needed. Standing still is a trap as well because Puff can have mobility advantage then. Just slow it down and use setups.
Should've either gotten on the side platform or been ready to Bair out of his dash back as Puff came on the platform.
Puff starts trying to bait out Falco's Bair there or otherwise force him to FH to cover her going high or force him into lag so she can get edge or Bair him. She can also Pound him pretty easily for standing it seems.
Lasers are good for damage but otherwise not super useful tbh.

He should have let go a bit later, then drifted toward Puff and DJ Bair'd and then drifted onto stage. That Bair beats Marth doing this too. But he also could have refreshed since Puff was a bit away from him, or even gotten back onstage.
Your DAFT can be hit if she acts second iirc but the timing isn't easy for her. I don't think it's a common interaction.
It's similar to an edgeguard position yeah.

I don't think that Bair BK did was helpful to his mobility. Maybe dash FH or SH DJ Dair/Nair can hit, but you'd need to react pretty well and be spaced properly.

It can be good in case Puff comes into you with Pound or Fair/Nair, which is why people back up that much in the first place. But yeah you don't need to do that much.

Yes, but if BK is just going to come onto the side platform/into you anyway then maybe it's not that big of a deal.

Shine stall I guess could be okay if Puff has less jumps or is lower, but that's not the case here. BK went right into the middle of the stage, which is the one thing Lint is covering.

Going toward the edge, not running away from it constantly.


Second vid:

Yeah that can be a good thing to do, but it works better if you react to them weaving away with a laser on the way down and/or not drifting so far away.

Yes. And he should threaten Bair vs Utilt vs laser vs Dair vs move/wait.

Lasers forced the jump, which is fine. After that I think going straight to the ground a bit questionable, but it worked out. Top platform keeps him from jumping over yes.

Bair/Utilt/Dair it outright or Nair/Bair/shine/whatever her landing. Play the next position if you have to.

Those lasers should be threatening to hit Puff or it's not so good unless it's baiting her to come in like this I guess. I think Hbox came in partly for that, and partly because he was winning by a lot. Missing the last laser makes that last position a guess basically.


Third vid:

You can Dsmash/Fsmash/Dair/DAFT/grab edge and do stuff vs that particular DJ.


No one understands Puff, counts her jumps. They're all just afraid of getting hit.

Bair beats it cleanly iirc, but if it's out it's hard to beat I think. Laser also beats it. Hitting his landing lag with Bair/Dair/laser is good too.

 

[Naeviv]

Hey PP, I have a long rambling question for you so I’m gonna do us both a favour and put the general message of what I’m trying to get across at the top to hopefully contextualize my rambling. My question is kind of cerebral and I don’t completely understand it myself but I’m hoping I can still convey it enough to warrant a response lul

-Have you ever felt frustrated by the default style in which you express yourself in game? What methods have you used to regain a creativity that you feel you might’ve lost?

So, to expand:

I’ve been playing Melee for nearly 5 years now. My first year was as a Peach main, then I threw in a bit of Falco since Armada said Peach was unviable after you whooped him at Apex 2015 (hope it’s alright I fluff your ego a bit), and since then I’ve been a solo Falco main with Peach on the side for funsies and sometimes for weirder MUs I don’t have a great understanding of (ICs, Samus). I do use Peach and Falco in all MUs in friendlies though.

So. My frustration with myself is that as Falco I feel like I’ve developed a very formulaic structure to my play. I’m fine at adapting and I understand to a mid level player degree of what beats what, but I find it deeply frustrating that my play has formed to be so, proper I guess? I’m not sure how to explain it, but I feel like if one were to watch me play, they wouldn’t be able to tell my play apart from any other mid-level Falco, and I personally hate that. It isn’t about being good or bad at the game either;. What I dislike is that Melee was once my main place where I felt I could express myself creatively through movement, neutral, or punish; I felt free as far as my tech skill would allow. I want that experimentation back, but I’m not sure where to even start because I’ve never felt “drained” from a creative place before. I imagine it's what writer's block feels like. Have you ever experienced a feeling like this before? What have you done to get those creative juices flowing again? Have you ever found a frustration in how you solve problems in Melee in comparison to another player? Like, “oh man, Shiz punishes high nairs on shield in a much cooler way than I do”? That’s a basic example but hopefully I’m getting the larger point across.

What’s interesting to me about this is when I play as Peach, I almost try as hard I can to be as formulaic and use as many set plays as possible. I find an enjoyment in running the same executions over and over. My only theory as of right now is that when I play Peach, my brain says “I want to be Armada”, who is- or uh, excuse me... was ;_; ... a player that was known for his ability to run his algorithm so efficiently and consistently. Where as when I play Falco, my brain says “I want to be Mango”, who’s known for mixups, odd timings, and general style. I feel like I don’t know who I “am” as a player, and I don’t even know why that should matter. But not knowing my style- or worse, knowing that I’m destined to play a style that is defensive and cookie cutter is frustrating.

Hopefully that rambling made sense, sorry for the possible incomprehensibility of it all. Also as an aside, I’ll be entering my first tourney in 6 months this friday. What mentality advice do you have for a player after an extended break? I should note a goal isn’t for me to win, I’d just like to become happy with how I play.
Much love and I hope your path of recovery has been kind <3

 

[Dr Peepee]

I did feel some distaste at my general style when I was an up-and-coming player, and especially after I became a top player, though that was in part due to Mango. I challenged myself psychologically, getting to the root of me getting stuck and in pain at the time. This made me more receptive to new ways of thinking, in addition to adopting a mentality that all perspectives are useful and can improve me. I also was re-evaluating all of my options I had as a character and using the ideas related to martial arts to change my understanding of them.

Generally, I recommend people return to the basics when they get stuck. What are your characters' goals, your goals in game? What are their best tools, and how should you use them individually and together? Can another character teach me some skills I lack? What are the fundamentals of the Melee, and how can I go deeper into them?

These things, the in-game and out-game, work together to bring out this expression. So it's important to tackle whatever blocks you are having in new ways. Can't solve a problem with the same thinking used to get into it, and all.

One more thing to suggest, or way to suggest it, is to look at your basic assumptions about the game and yourself. As you begin learning, you are open to everything, flexible. As you grow, you see what works more than other things, and keep doing that. You get more and more stuck. Taking the general components of what's good that you use, and applying it in new ways, can give you new discoveries and new ways of playing. Maybe that can help you.

Good luck!

 

[Naeviv]

Can you elaborate on the ideas from martial arts that you used to change your understanding of the characters you played? That sounds so anime to me lmao

I really like your point on how flexible one is when they're starting out. I remember asking so many silly questions without fear of how it would sound just because I knew it was natural for me to not understand everything. But now I feel so hesitant to ask about common situations because in my head I should either know it by now or have the tools available to me to learn it on my own. It reminds me of something an old professor talked about; A paperclip is given to a child and they're asked to name how many things it could be used for. The child rambles off dozens of different ideas. But when the same task is given to an adult, they can only see it as a clip that holds paper. It really highlights how tunnel visioned we can get on a certain tool's strength and ignore its possible other uses. I really like this suggestion PP, thank you.

And thank you for echoing those feelings of distaste for one's own playstyle, it's definitely comforting. There's so many aspects of your play that I admire and think is so creative so to know that at one point you were at a similar place as to where I am now makes me confident that this isn't a permanent feeling.

Feel free to not answer this next bit, but I'm curious as to what you meant by, "I did feel some distaste at my general style when I was an up-and-coming player, and especially after I became a top player, though that was in part due to Mango ". Was this because you wanted a style more similar to Mango, or because Mango was doing/saying stuff to you that made you feel discouraged by your own playstyle? This is interesting to me because if it's the first option, I'm curious as to how/when you were able to embrace your own unique style.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

I did feel some distaste at my general style when I was an up-and-coming player, and especially after I became a top player, though that was in part due to Mango. I challenged myself psychologically, getting to the root of me getting stuck and in pain at the time. This made me more receptive to new ways of thinking, in addition to adopting a mentality that all perspectives are useful and can improve me. I also was re-evaluating all of my options I had as a character and using the ideas related to martial arts to change my understanding of them.

Generally, I recommend people return to the basics when they get stuck. What are your characters' goals, your goals in game? What are their best tools, and how should you use them individually and together? Can another character teach me some skills I lack? What are the fundamentals of the Melee, and how can I go deeper into them?

These things, the in-game and out-game, work together to bring out this expression. So it's important to tackle whatever blocks you are having in new ways. Can't solve a problem with the same thinking used to get into it, and all.

One more thing to suggest, or way to suggest it, is to look at your basic assumptions about the game and yourself. As you begin learning, you are open to everything, flexible. As you grow, you see what works more than other things, and keep doing that. You get more and more stuck. Taking the general components of what's good that you use, and applying it in new ways, can give you new discoveries and new ways of playing. Maybe that can help you.

Good luck!

I believe I am starting to get to this point of finding my own play stale after practicing combo game and execution for so long. Do you have a process for diving into your own basic assumptions about melee and myself? I'm not such how to go about doing that, it seems so unintuitive. I bet writing it out by hand would help, but then from there where do you go after you've identified those basic assumptions? Should I be looking at different archetypes of falco? How do you reevaulate your basic assumptions of falco's strong and standard tools after deepening connections with them for so long?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjM-ocaJVsE&

At 0:29 I do dash back sh in tomahawk shine. What's the advantage to doing tomahawk shine over approaching laser in that position? I can't really think of one besides maybe getting to delay your decision in the air and your opponent has absolutely no opportunity for a ps.

1:11
I think I knew he was going to do a run up shield, but I didn't really know how to respond to it at that range.

1:15
Another walk up shield, my intuition says dash up fade back dair or laser, but what else can falco do? Especially what can falco do that is also good against wd back or nair oos?

1:18
Still struggling with sh nair, simple decision in that position seems to be to just laser it and move in from there. Are there other ways falco can wait that out? Is there any reason to wait without shooting a laser?

2:00
After he does run up shield (I'm starting to see a pattern haha) which ps my laser, what do you think of the jab there? Looks like I was definitely in range for a shine there, but besides those two options (is jab even good? They can just keep holding shield or hold down in any form) what else is viable for falco there?

In general against sheiks that run up shield do I want to be moving forward or backwards more? I think ideally I would set up an approach where I land right on top of them with laser to link into shine grab or something.

2:04-2:07
I'm curious about this whole sequence. Seems like my fade away dairs provoked him to jump and charge with needles (although I was expecting him to take platform). Probably over did it with the dairs though, but I kept thinking he would either DA or boost grab me. Honestly even two in a row seems like overdoing it a little to me because they can easily punish the longish landing lag with boost grab if they're primed for it. And then after those dairs do you think djing in the way I did to the platform is good against sheik in the corner? And I'm guessing SDr spaced bair is better than dair, or should have done run off turn around laser.

Now that I think about it, is short hop fade away dair even good on sheik's shield?

2:50
Is there a way to contest sheik while she's charging neeldes in that position? Either by cutting off the ledge or hitting her outright. Seems difficult from the position I was in because you either have to back up to get a laser out which means you can't hit her, or you have to take the ground immediately but even then what do you do? Is it possible in that specific position in the video where he had so many needles charged to SDr after the last needle hits your shield and then laser f tilt?

3:00
Here's an example of me beating the run up shield nair oos. How did I set that up well? I'm realizing that it's hard to set up the range because they can shield stop at any range as well.

3:57
What should I have done instead of that back flip mid bair that got shield grabbed? Considering the conditioning I've already established of bairing his nairs and shine wd away from shield grab, how could I have used that info to inform my next option? Was it a good idea but just poorly executed?

4:00
Damn Falcon has long range, is dash backing even good against falcon's overshoot nair and/or knee? I guess they're doing that overshoot to catch your dash back. What's the difference between doing the mixup between bair/uptilt and laser in place vs after a dash back? In that position what should I have done instead of the dash back? What should I have done if I had shielded his nair after dash back? Here's another example of a dash back (into laser) which lost to nair. Although seems like I probably should have just baired instead or simply shot a high laser.

4:04
I've had this theory that wd oos is really good against falcon in scuffle situations because they want to sh nair most of the time to catch you jumping. So here it worked out but is there something else I could have done or could do in this same situation as a mixup to that option?

7:24
What do you do against stomp oos?

How do you setup favorable ranges vs falcon full hopping or doing instant dj? Is it about moving out of his drift in up air/nair range and then lasering? Do you want to laser him before he hits the ground or as he hits the ground? Do you pretty much always want to laser? I've found that it's easier to maintain a closer range if you don't laser though so maybe that's better and then laser him after he hits the ground? But then that's a mixup in itself so he can nair you, I'm kind of stuck and I feel like the answer is in front of me. Is moving in with pivot bair viable? I've found that short hopping in with nair or dair normally gets beat out or trades, even sh uair seems more effective if you're in range to get under them with it. What about fh? That seems pretty good because you can hit them out of the peak of their jump since they normally swing on the way down.

10:40
Preemptive full hop knee against half dash back laser. Do you think my decision after that interaction was good? What's the difference between dash back cross up nair and immediate cross up aerial?

6:59
What do you think of the way I responded to this full hop? During and after?

7:08
I'm super curious about this interaction, because I committed really early with the laser in against his full hop, so instead of doing that laser could I still do a sh in and then make a decision during that sh to be better prepared against that fh? Instead of that sh in what could I have done? What could I have done instead of that laser while still shing in? What could I have done instead of that laser while still fhing in that I can decide during my sh? For that range where do you think the decision point is in the sh?

7:22
What do you think of this interaction even though nothing really came of it? Can falco take advantage of the fact that falcon doesn't have his dj from that range?

8:30
What do you think of each of those 3 full hops that he did? Specifically the ones that he did while I was in the corner? Is shielding a more viable option there cause you can't always outspace them drifting towards you? If you were going to move out of the corner against it would you be more inclined to sh or fh at that range and percent? If he's at lower percent is sh better?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Can you elaborate on the ideas from martial arts that you used to change your understanding of the characters you played? That sounds so anime to me lmao

I really like your point on how flexible one is when they're starting out. I remember asking so many silly questions without fear of how it would sound just because I knew it was natural for me to not understand everything. But now I feel so hesitant to ask about common situations because in my head I should either know it by now or have the tools available to me to learn it on my own. It reminds me of something an old professor talked about; A paperclip is given to a child and they're asked to name how many things it could be used for. The child rambles off dozens of different ideas. But when the same task is given to an adult, they can only see it as a clip that holds paper. It really highlights how tunnel visioned we can get on a certain tool's strength and ignore its possible other uses. I really like this suggestion PP, thank you.

And thank you for echoing those feelings of distaste for one's own playstyle, it's definitely comforting. There's so many aspects of your play that I admire and think is so creative so to know that at one point you were at a similar place as to where I am now makes me confident that this isn't a permanent feeling.

Feel free to not answer this next bit, but I'm curious as to what you meant by, "I did feel some distaste at my general style when I was an up-and-coming player, and especially after I became a top player, though that was in part due to Mango ". Was this because you wanted a style more similar to Mango, or because Mango was doing/saying stuff to you that made you feel discouraged by your own playstyle? This is interesting to me because if it's the first option, I'm curious as to how/when you were able to embrace your own unique style.

Lmao life is anime!
I think it could be detrimental to say too much, but I learned about keeping it simple(like a boxing jab efficiency), about how important rhythm was, and about how broaching the space between myself and my opponent forces them to act.

It's good to be able to look for yourself, but it's also good to ask.

Mango was talking down my style. I thought I was more aggressive than I was at the time(a probably that may persist some now) so we had arguments about it. I liked my ideas overall but not always how they were expressed, but now I think I was stuck in a life rut as much as a Melee one because I loved my play before and after that time lol.

I believe I am starting to get to this point of finding my own play stale after practicing combo game and execution for so long. Do you have a process for diving into your own basic assumptions about melee and myself? I'm not such how to go about doing that, it seems so unintuitive. I bet writing it out by hand would help, but then from there where do you go after you've identified those basic assumptions? Should I be looking at different archetypes of falco? How do you reevaulate your basic assumptions of falco's strong and standard tools after deepening connections with them for so long?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjM-ocaJVsE&

At 0:29 I do dash back sh in tomahawk shine. What's the advantage to doing tomahawk shine over approaching laser in that position? I can't really think of one besides maybe getting to delay your decision in the air and your opponent has absolutely no opportunity for a ps.

1:11
I think I knew he was going to do a run up shield, but I didn't really know how to respond to it at that range.

1:15
Another walk up shield, my intuition says dash up fade back dair or laser, but what else can falco do? Especially what can falco do that is also good against wd back or nair oos?

1:18
Still struggling with sh nair, simple decision in that position seems to be to just laser it and move in from there. Are there other ways falco can wait that out? Is there any reason to wait without shooting a laser?

2:00
After he does run up shield (I'm starting to see a pattern haha) which ps my laser, what do you think of the jab there? Looks like I was definitely in range for a shine there, but besides those two options (is jab even good? They can just keep holding shield or hold down in any form) what else is viable for falco there?

In general against sheiks that run up shield do I want to be moving forward or backwards more? I think ideally I would set up an approach where I land right on top of them with laser to link into shine grab or something.

2:04-2:07
I'm curious about this whole sequence. Seems like my fade away dairs provoked him to jump and charge with needles (although I was expecting him to take platform). Probably over did it with the dairs though, but I kept thinking he would either DA or boost grab me. Honestly even two in a row seems like overdoing it a little to me because they can easily punish the longish landing lag with boost grab if they're primed for it. And then after those dairs do you think djing in the way I did to the platform is good against sheik in the corner? And I'm guessing SDr spaced bair is better than dair, or should have done run off turn around laser.

Now that I think about it, is short hop fade away dair even good on sheik's shield?

2:50
Is there a way to contest sheik while she's charging neeldes in that position? Either by cutting off the ledge or hitting her outright. Seems difficult from the position I was in because you either have to back up to get a laser out which means you can't hit her, or you have to take the ground immediately but even then what do you do? Is it possible in that specific position in the video where he had so many needles charged to SDr after the last needle hits your shield and then laser f tilt?

3:00
Here's an example of me beating the run up shield nair oos. How did I set that up well? I'm realizing that it's hard to set up the range because they can shield stop at any range as well.

3:57
What should I have done instead of that back flip mid bair that got shield grabbed? Considering the conditioning I've already established of bairing his nairs and shine wd away from shield grab, how could I have used that info to inform my next option? Was it a good idea but just poorly executed?

4:00
Damn Falcon has long range, is dash backing even good against falcon's overshoot nair and/or knee? I guess they're doing that overshoot to catch your dash back. What's the difference between doing the mixup between bair/uptilt and laser in place vs after a dash back? In that position what should I have done instead of the dash back? What should I have done if I had shielded his nair after dash back? Here's another example of a dash back (into laser) which lost to nair. Although seems like I probably should have just baired instead or simply shot a high laser.

4:04
I've had this theory that wd oos is really good against falcon in scuffle situations because they want to sh nair most of the time to catch you jumping. So here it worked out but is there something else I could have done or could do in this same situation as a mixup to that option?

7:24
What do you do against stomp oos?

How do you setup favorable ranges vs falcon full hopping or doing instant dj? Is it about moving out of his drift in up air/nair range and then lasering? Do you want to laser him before he hits the ground or as he hits the ground? Do you pretty much always want to laser? I've found that it's easier to maintain a closer range if you don't laser though so maybe that's better and then laser him after he hits the ground? But then that's a mixup in itself so he can nair you, I'm kind of stuck and I feel like the answer is in front of me. Is moving in with pivot bair viable? I've found that short hopping in with nair or dair normally gets beat out or trades, even sh uair seems more effective if you're in range to get under them with it. What about fh? That seems pretty good because you can hit them out of the peak of their jump since they normally swing on the way down.

10:40
Preemptive full hop knee against half dash back laser. Do you think my decision after that interaction was good? What's the difference between dash back cross up nair and immediate cross up aerial?

6:59
What do you think of the way I responded to this full hop? During and after?

7:08
I'm super curious about this interaction, because I committed really early with the laser in against his full hop, so instead of doing that laser could I still do a sh in and then make a decision during that sh to be better prepared against that fh? Instead of that sh in what could I have done? What could I have done instead of that laser while still shing in? What could I have done instead of that laser while still fhing in that I can decide during my sh? For that range where do you think the decision point is in the sh?

7:22
What do you think of this interaction even though nothing really came of it? Can falco take advantage of the fact that falcon doesn't have his dj from that range?

8:30
What do you think of each of those 3 full hops that he did? Specifically the ones that he did while I was in the corner? Is shielding a more viable option there cause you can't always outspace them drifting towards you? If you were going to move out of the corner against it would you be more inclined to sh or fh at that range and percent? If he's at lower percent is sh better?

A good question I ask myself is "what if I'm wrong? what would it take for me to be wrong?" Once I begin building evidence for the new theory, it challenges me to think in new ways, if not outright changing my mind or at least broadening my definitions. The point is to start.

If they're waiting to react, then they have nothing to react to. Laser startup is long so it's a real reaction point.

Could have aerialed through, or grabbed, or let the dash stall to start pressure, or started regular pressure. Or not dashed, depending on when you expected the dash up shield.

Space Bair, Nair/Dair into Sheik or space it, laser in place or backed up slightly depending on reaction...those are all fine and safe.

Could dash in there to set up pivot/dash back Bair as well, or dash in Fair I suppose. Laser is fine though.

At that range, you pretty much should be looking at jab and shine. Maybe also dash back if you think they will act late or wait for you to attack. Shine is better than jab since it's faster and you have frame disadvantage due to being PS'd and hit, and the holding down thing.

You should have reacted to his shield and not done a third one. Also, Sheiks won't usually BG vs Falco since he's jumping a lot, and DA is rare too for that reason. Plus it's a risk to Sheik. Sheik is cornered, which is bad for her.
DJ can be okay but opens up you getting punished from below if she reacts well. I don't tend to like it.
Fadeaway Dair is okay on shield her shield but not necessarily amazing. Depends on spacing and staling and such as well.

I would take the ground and threaten from there so if she throws the set she falls past edge.

You looked like you lasered from a bit closer than normal which is always helpful. Many Falcos fight too far away.

You should have shined, or spaced the Bair more, or mixed up timing with a wait/dash/laser.

Dash back only good to help you set up Bair. Try to beat Falcon out not dodge him, you're not Marth.

Could have Dair'd OOS, which is a good mixup to WD OOS in general.

Hit lower aerials so you can shine his jumpsquat, or space them so I can dodge/hit his stomp startup. No need to crazy pressure Falcon's shield he can't do anything OOS.

You can dash FH hit him, or dash in pivot Bair him sometimes, and sometimes you can Utilt or Bair his landing. Always going for laser lets him come in on you, but lasering is fine too of course.

It was fine.

Yes you can and should consider reacting out of SH instead of always doing laser. You can DJ out of SH. Explore your options.

If you didn't dash back after his DJ, then yes.

I don't like FH vs Falcon because of Uair. I think crossing him up is a great way to get out of the corner.

I think working on your punish game would give you more benefits at this stage.

 

[Morsecode762]

Hey PPMD,

I have been working on some awareness practices, including your setplays style, and I came to a conclusion regarding setplays: One has to know where people are reacting and where people are reading in order to properly perform setplays. As a samus, the things I want to do are naturally slow and reactable. Because of this, I need to set up properly with projectiles, spacing, and aggression, in order to get the opponent to start reading my decisions instead of reacting to them with the proper counterplay. Any thoughts?

Morse

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Lmao life is anime!
I think it could be detrimental to say too much, but I learned about keeping it simple(like a boxing jab efficiency), about how important rhythm was, and about how broaching the space between myself and my opponent forces them to act.

It's good to be able to look for yourself, but it's also good to ask.

Mango was talking down my style. I thought I was more aggressive than I was at the time(a probably that may persist some now) so we had arguments about it. I liked my ideas overall but not always how they were expressed, but now I think I was stuck in a life rut as much as a Melee one because I loved my play before and after that time lol.


A good question I ask myself is "what if I'm wrong? what would it take for me to be wrong?" Once I begin building evidence for the new theory, it challenges me to think in new ways, if not outright changing my mind or at least broadening my definitions. The point is to start.

If they're waiting to react, then they have nothing to react to. Laser startup is long so it's a real reaction point.

Could have aerialed through, or grabbed, or let the dash stall to start pressure, or started regular pressure. Or not dashed, depending on when you expected the dash up shield.

Space Bair, Nair/Dair into Sheik or space it, laser in place or backed up slightly depending on reaction...those are all fine and safe.

Could dash in there to set up pivot/dash back Bair as well, or dash in Fair I suppose. Laser is fine though.

At that range, you pretty much should be looking at jab and shine. Maybe also dash back if you think they will act late or wait for you to attack. Shine is better than jab since it's faster and you have frame disadvantage due to being PS'd and hit, and the holding down thing.

You should have reacted to his shield and not done a third one. Also, Sheiks won't usually BG vs Falco since he's jumping a lot, and DA is rare too for that reason. Plus it's a risk to Sheik. Sheik is cornered, which is bad for her.
DJ can be okay but opens up you getting punished from below if she reacts well. I don't tend to like it.
Fadeaway Dair is okay on shield her shield but not necessarily amazing. Depends on spacing and staling and such as well.

I would take the ground and threaten from there so if she throws the set she falls past edge.

You looked like you lasered from a bit closer than normal which is always helpful. Many Falcos fight too far away.

You should have shined, or spaced the Bair more, or mixed up timing with a wait/dash/laser.

Dash back only good to help you set up Bair. Try to beat Falcon out not dodge him, you're not Marth.

Could have Dair'd OOS, which is a good mixup to WD OOS in general.

Hit lower aerials so you can shine his jumpsquat, or space them so I can dodge/hit his stomp startup. No need to crazy pressure Falcon's shield he can't do anything OOS.

You can dash FH hit him, or dash in pivot Bair him sometimes, and sometimes you can Utilt or Bair his landing. Always going for laser lets him come in on you, but lasering is fine too of course.

It was fine.

Yes you can and should consider reacting out of SH instead of always doing laser. You can DJ out of SH. Explore your options.

If you didn't dash back after his DJ, then yes.

I don't like FH vs Falcon because of Uair. I think crossing him up is a great way to get out of the corner.

I think working on your punish game would give you more benefits at this stage.

Hmm, well I've been working on my punish game for a long time (I'd say since last summer very seriously), but how can I go about doing a more methodical approach to learning punish game instead of simply beating up every character on every map for 5 minutes each (that was my process cause it's so easy and I can just through on a podcast or something). Do you think doing a more scientific approach is warranted? I'd say that whenever I do practice punish I do always notice the benefits so I'd say my process has never been ineffective, I'm just wondering if it's not as effective if it could be. I'd say what I'm doing currently takes the viewpoint that quantity will get you there, even if it's low effort practice.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PPMD,

I have been working on some awareness practices, including your setplays style, and I came to a conclusion regarding setplays: One has to know where people are reacting and where people are reading in order to properly perform setplays. As a samus, the things I want to do are naturally slow and reactable. Because of this, I need to set up properly with projectiles, spacing, and aggression, in order to get the opponent to start reading my decisions instead of reacting to them with the proper counterplay. Any thoughts?

Morse

Mixing Ftilt and DA out of walk, and mixing DA and other things out of dash forward help to influence the opponent. But yes generally you need to consider where people will react and build around that. Moving into their space encourages a reaction for example because they can no longer wait for you to do something before they react and must make some type of guess. Also, since Samus is counterattacking more than other characters, you will need to intuit some responses you get as you build defensive plays and conditioning. Did they not come in because they thought I would attack, because they were looking for a WD I didn't do, or because the spacing was too far? Etc

There is a lot to go over in those scenarios, but I think that can help push in the right direction some. Let me know if you have any questions.

Hmm, well I've been working on my punish game for a long time (I'd say since last summer very seriously), but how can I go about doing a more methodical approach to learning punish game instead of simply beating up every character on every map for 5 minutes each (that was my process cause it's so easy and I can just through on a podcast or something). Do you think doing a more scientific approach is warranted? I'd say that whenever I do practice punish I do always notice the benefits so I'd say my process has never been ineffective, I'm just wondering if it's not as effective if it could be. I'd say what I'm doing currently takes the viewpoint that quantity will get you there, even if it's low effort practice.

I'd suggest adding in times where you drop punishes in matches and practice hitting those you drop or theorizing other ways to continue as well as start the combo.

 

[Naeviv]

Lmao life is anime!
I think it could be detrimental to say too much, but I learned about keeping it simple(like a boxing jab efficiency), about how important rhythm was, and about how broaching the space between myself and my opponent forces them to act.

It's good to be able to look for yourself, but it's also good to ask.

Mango was talking down my style. I thought I was more aggressive than I was at the time(a probably that may persist some now) so we had arguments about it. I liked my ideas overall but not always how they were expressed, but now I think I was stuck in a life rut as much as a Melee one because I loved my play before and after that time lol.

I'm excited to expand on your martial arts idea in my own way. Thank you for the idea, it seems semi-similar to Cactuar's shadow boxing idea. And I'm sorry to hear you had that experience with Mango in the early days. I hope you know now that we all love your play and are looking forward to when you're healthy again <3

 

[woglofungi]

Hey PP, how can i keep the fluidity and speed of my movement consistent? When I'm alome in training, my movement is fast and fluid but when i play a match, it seems like everything i've learnt goes to waste, although i suppose this could be because of the pressure. Also what are some bread n butter kill setups/combos?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm excited to expand on your martial arts idea in my own way. Thank you for the idea, it seems semi-similar to Cactuar's shadow boxing idea. And I'm sorry to hear you had that experience with Mango in the early days. I hope you know now that we all love your play and are looking forward to when you're healthy again <3

That's very kind of you, thank you! It really is helpful =)

And good luck to you!

Hey PP, how can i keep the fluidity and speed of my movement consistent? When I'm alome in training, my movement is fast and fluid but when i play a match, it seems like everything i've learnt goes to waste, although i suppose this could be because of the pressure. Also what are some bread n butter kill setups/combos?

Practice like you're in a match or actions you'll use in a match, and then you can be fast in both. Laser aerial, laser dash in laser in place, laser dash in dash back aerial in, etc. Gives your movement depth and is actually how you could play in a match.

Dair Dair by the edge or Dair Fsmash, shine into shine-Bair or shine up-B for kills, and combos are Dair tech chasing into Dair/Utilt/Fsmash/Shine particularly on a platform or by the edge, or launching someone and then Bair'ing them as they're in the air into an edgeguard.

 

[woglofungi]

That's very kind of you, thank you! It really is helpful =)

And good luck to you!


Practice like you're in a match or actions you'll use in a match, and then you can be fast in both. Laser aerial, laser dash in laser in place, laser dash in dash back aerial in, etc. Gives your movement depth and is actually how you could play in a match.

Dair Dair by the edge or Dair Fsmash, shine into shine-Bair or shine up-B for kills, and combos are Dair tech chasing into Dair/Utilt/Fsmash/Shine particularly on a platform or by the edge, or launching someone and then Bair'ing them as they're in the air into an edgeguard.

I've been told that after getting a good grip of the basic tech, it is good to practice punish game? How can i practice punish/ what can I do to punish as falco?

 

[Dr Peepee]

That's good to do. Practice doing combo starters like Dair/Nair/Utilt/shine at various positions and percents and look at what happens. Then decide what to do next. Usually you want to put the opponent onto the platform, into the air so they use their DJ and can get Bair'd, or you push them offstage, or mix between them.

 

[woglofungi]

What do you think is the best order of action to improve? People generally just say practice, but that itself has so many variations.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It can depend on what people are most interested in, but basic tech comes first no matter what. Then you move from that into various degrees of neutral work(lasers and moving off of them as a starting point for Falco is one I suggest) and punish(going from a laser mid Nair into the next hit or two of a combo which ties the neutral and punish together).

There are plenty of ways to practice, but I think my method is fairly good and has been able to help others, so it's not a bad place to start looking for ideas.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

How do you use friendlies to work on one specific thing? For example I'm working on responses after losing the laser war vs falco. How do you quantify your improvement on that if improvement even happens in the friendly session? Should i be working on at least one topic in both neutral and punish? Or is even two things too many topics?

Do you prefer to stay grounded after losing laser war and you think they'll come in? Because I feel like if you sh bair or try to go for a laser and they laser you anyway you're in a much worse position even if it's at the same range horizontally.

How does jab and f tilt interact vs falco's sh aerials? There any difference ebtween normal f tilt and upward angled f tilt?

Is dash back good if it puts your out of trheat range?

What tools should I be looking into besides the ones I mentioned and turn around up tilt which I use pretty often as well?

 

[Melonsismyusername]

What do you think of box controlllers, ppmd.

 

[Dr Peepee]

How do you use friendlies to work on one specific thing? For example I'm working on responses after losing the laser war vs falco. How do you quantify your improvement on that if improvement even happens in the friendly session? Should i be working on at least one topic in both neutral and punish? Or is even two things too many topics?

Do you prefer to stay grounded after losing laser war and you think they'll come in? Because I feel like if you sh bair or try to go for a laser and they laser you anyway you're in a much worse position even if it's at the same range horizontally.

How does jab and f tilt interact vs falco's sh aerials? There any difference ebtween normal f tilt and upward angled f tilt?

Is dash back good if it puts your out of trheat range?

What tools should I be looking into besides the ones I mentioned and turn around up tilt which I use pretty often as well?

Look at previous responses, identify responses you want, and remember if you did them or not. And then learn what was useful and when etc. Pretty straightforward. It can sometimes help to get one thing out of the way and relatively understood in a session before moving on, so it can help to have a backlog of ideas, but no need to overwhelm yourself.

I prefer going to a platform when possible if I lose it, but knowing how to play the ground game is important as well. Getting lasered out of Bair while in the air can allow you to DJ which can be useful.

I don't think jab is that useful except to beat aerial startup. Ftilt maybe could get under an AC Bair? I dunno it's just something to test. Upward angled Ftilt could poke at an opposing Falco who wants to delay an aerial or does a laser.

Sure, safer anyway.

SH'ing over lasers or hitting them before it comes out I suppose. Take laser dash back or dash away SH can be good. CC'ing lasers is likely useful too.

What do you think of box controlllers, ppmd.

I'd like for them not to be overpowered compared to a GameCube controller, and I'd like for them to be accessible and available as much as possible in order to help those with hand pain or worries about hand pain to play Melee. There are more nuances than that given how things have turned out, but those are my basic feelings.

 

[R3_]

how does one go about labbing. im aware of/have 20xx, unclepunch and all that but like im unsure what to lab out? I would assume watching sets of certain characters and listing what seems to be their best option, then setting up a replay and attempting methods of beating it. I just wanted to see if this is a method that could set me on the right path

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah that's a great starting point. Learn to beat their in place options with yours, and how your approaches work best and work worst, and same with theirs. 20XX can also help you know when your pressure is frame tight or good enough, as well as let you know how safe your approaching aerials are on shield.

It can also help you with punishes in that you have the same starting position but can change the DI and the followups to get some new ideas.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Yeah that's a great starting point. Learn to beat their in place options with yours, and how your approaches work best and work worst, and same with theirs. 20XX can also help you know when your pressure is frame tight or good enough, as well as let you know how safe your approaching aerials are on shield.

It can also help you with punishes in that you have the same starting position but can change the DI and the followups to get some new ideas.

Hi Dr PP,

Recently played with an icies player and I noticed a few things. First was that I interact too much, icies seemed to be much better in the scuffle. I really should have retreated with a full dash back laser after not quite coming out on top in an interaction. Do you agree with this? Of course it's situational but is there some general rule that I can start to follow in order to determine when to reset neutral?

How do you deal with them spamming ice blocks? Do you have to space yourself out of their wd range and then start laser spamming? What if you don't have the space to do that?

I also noticed that it seems that falco is much better at comboing sopo instead of nana because his combos are so vertical and long, and then after the sopo combo you either edgeguard him or start to get damage on nana to separate them even more.

At around what range should you be playing? I've noticed that you can camp sh ac bair and sh late bair quite well which requires being in their wavedash range, but to establish laser control or approach seems like it's more comfortable to be further away. Also how are dair in place and up tilt as defensive options? To me dair feels like it has too much lag.

What should be the ratio of offense and defense? Offense feels slightly better to me but admittedly I am too aggressive.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Maybe you just don't use good options when close or DD when they're actionable. If you're close you need moves out or to back up and laser.

I just FH and land with a laser if they ice block, and they have to stop or I could threaten landing on them with Dair instead. Can get on platforms on non-FD.

Establish laser control farther away, then get in close to spam Dair/Bair/Nair on them. Spacing it is fine and sometimes better so they can't challenge.

I prefer offense, or at least threatening a lot, but that can be preference to some extent I suppose.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Maybe you just don't use good options when close or DD when they're actionable. If you're close you need moves out or to back up and laser.

I just FH and land with a laser if they ice block, and they have to stop or I could threaten landing on them with Dair instead. Can get on platforms on non-FD.

Establish laser control farther away, then get in close to spam Dair/Bair/Nair on them. Spacing it is fine and sometimes better so they can't challenge.

I prefer offense, or at least threatening a lot, but that can be preference to some extent I suppose.

Also you said before that dair invalidates popo but how exactly do you do dair? Is it a run up spaced dair on shield or simply a dair in place from a further distance like while you're in their wd range?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Generally you want to be able to hit with the startup or close to it so you can pull back or delay as necessary. It's not meant to be a dash in full drift in Dair at all, that's risky.

 

[R3_]

hi PP, thanks for answering my other post.
I have another question this time about foxtrotting like how you did in this clip here: https://youtu.be/a3EvVrX7jls?t=37
when/where is foxtrotting useful with falco and what are some other ways of utilising it?

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's useful when you need more distance and/or want to stagger laser/approach timings. You can use it going forward too since most people expect an attack or laser directly after moving forward. Another way to think of it is it's a way to break bad habits out of dash as Falco, since so many people just do stuff without thinking about why it's good. Extra dashes breaks habits and gives you a bit of space to think.

 

[R3_]

very insightful, thank you but what exactly does stagger laser mean?

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

It's useful when you need more distance and/or want to stagger laser/approach timings. You can use it going forward too since most people expect an attack or laser directly after moving forward. Another way to think of it is it's a way to break bad habits out of dash as Falco, since so many people just do stuff without thinking about why it's good. Extra dashes breaks habits and gives you a bit of space to think.

What would a bad habit out of dash be? AKA always doing the same thing out of dash? Why do extra dashes break those habits? I thought falco should stick to 1-2 dashes at a time?

 

[Dr Peepee]

very insightful, thank you but what exactly does stagger laser mean?

Just like changing the timing. Instead of "one, two" it could be "onetwo" or "one....two". Staggering usually means the more delayed version of what I just said.

What would a bad habit out of dash be? AKA always doing the same thing out of dash? Why do extra dashes break those habits? I thought falco should stick to 1-2 dashes at a time?

Doing a foxtrot once is two dashes, and also the general rule for 1-2 dashes is to force simplicity.

A bad habit out of dash is usually a laser in or aerial in for most Falcos. It's pretty easy to find habits, you just look at what you usually do.

 

[ACB1RD]

Hey there PPMD, any updates on your upcoming return? I hope you're feeling your fullest and best self
Aside from that I wanted to ask about the concept of conditioning. I'm fairly new to melee and competitive smash in general, though I've known about the game since 2013. When it comes to playing friendlies and such, my training partner tries to punish any habits I have (Teching out too much for example). I've become recently aware of utilizing mixups because he thinks I'm going for a different option. I think a proper name for that would be long term conditioning, but when I enter a tournament setting, I realize how bad I am at conditioning short term. How do I manage to perform this skill when the stakes are high? I know that I obviously need to get better and obtain more experience, but I still don't have an understanding of how it works and how to apply the concept in high tense situations, especially against players I've never played against before.
What is the approach to the concept?
What is the application?
Excuse me if those questions are too vague,
and thanks!

 

[AnonymousID]

Hey PP have you read Peak by Anders Ericsson? I just finished reading it and Its been my favorite book on getting good!