PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

I guess the best way I can describe it is wanting to practice when I’m not practicing but then not really being into it when I do. I’m not sure there’s a huge trigger for it or anything but it’s more seems like an accumulation of thoughts and emotions about the game that builds up over time and eventually makes me not like practicing even though I want to.

I have a tourney tonight and then another one tomorrow, these will be my first events in a long time. Stamina seems to be a pretty big problem for me, especially for these night tournies. Do you have any simple recommendations for dealing with it? There’s about 40 to 50 people in the bracket and I’m like 5th seed so i have confidence I’m gonna make it pretty far and then end up fighting the hardest opponents the more tired I am. I’ve been meditating a few times a day and running about once every other day in preparation.

What are these things that build up?

Sounds to me like you could either stand to find a way to make practicing more interesting/fun or you need to deal with these thought and feelings before they begin to make you feel negative.


Not so much I recommend about energy last minute, but don't overdo friendlies, eat often enough, make sure you breathe deeply and evenly so you don't waste energy there. Meditating beforehand to keep yourself from stressing and instead being excited is probably a good idea as well. Good luck

 

[PAWN1]

I got advice from someone to mix in platform movement into my gameplan but wasn't sure where to do that, so I rewatched some of your vods. I noticed that you almost never go to the platforms against Fox, Marth, and Sheik unless they go to the platform first. That way you can punish their run off aerial or platform movement with a full hop shine -> waveland or bair. Is this the right conclusion to be drawn? What are some exceptions to this if it's a rule?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah, but you can go to platforms first more against Fox if you want. This is because it's not so easy for Fox to outrange you or stick moves up and at you when you're above him. Also in general you can get on side platforms if your opponent is far away, and even top platform fighting can be pretty good vs anyone. I just don't prefer the top platform so much. The top platform makes use of Falco's great fall speed and big aerials plus his laser to hit different spots quickly and gain advantage. You can also use it to do more defensive plays as well, so it's quite a versatile spot.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Hey PP a lot happened in the last two days, I had two entirely different tourney experiences and a bunch of vods to study so i finally get to ask questions about those instead of other peoples.

On friday I was seeded 6 out of 50 and beat the 11 seeded peach before losing to the 3 seed (who is actually 2nd in skill) in winners quarters in falco dittos which was recorded (this guy also went on to win the tourney). Then in losers I lost to the 1st seeded fox because he lost to a marth that's super good at gimping. So I ended up getting 13th. I really wasn't mad at all which I found was surprising so I think my practice meditating on losing helped with that. If anything I was more inspired to do better at the next one even though I lost to the two best people there. I also went out of the tourney feeling like I didn't play that well against the people that I did play; the further into a set I get the more my thoughts dominate my gameplay and then I end up not letting myself adapt and instead trying to force approaches and playing really scared at the same time.

On saturday I came into the tourney as the 4 seed, with the 1 seed being the falco that beat me yesterday. I beat the 12 seed, and then the 5 seed, and then lost to the 1 seed again 3-1. During my set against the 5 seed (puff) I realized I was getting distracted by my thoughts, even if my thoughts were trying to get me back into the game. They kept coming back trying to analyze every situation and the implications of future stuff. There was also some emotional stuff there as well like "why can't you play better?" and some positive stuff as well. After losing to the first seed in winners I wasn't that mad cause i've never beaten him before, but I wasn't exactly in a great mood either. So in losers I ended up playing against this pikachu. I struggled in the first game, and it happened again where I try to control my gameplay instead of letting it flow. Due to my unfamiliarity with the matchup, after winning game 1 and losing game 2, I just decided to avoid his best approach option and tell myself "Don't get naired". The next game the craziest thing happened. Throughout the entire game I just kept thinking "Don't get naired" and it resulted in me barely getting naired at all the rest of the set, but the game was over before I had even realized it. I had unknowingly given myself a mantra to follow in the form of a simple gameplan. Even during me recovering or edgeguarding all I thought was "don't get naired" and eventually the mantra went away and my brain was clear and I was able to play some of the most fun melee I've played in a super long time despite being kind of tired the whole day.

So with this new strategy I went into the next few matches feeling the same that I normally do, but with slightly less fear of losing and slightly more confidence. I beat the 6 seed falco 3-1, and then the same peach I had beat yesterday in losers finals 3-2 who was seeded 7 this day. Then, after playing super well game 5 against that peach, I went into the next set in GF super confident but even more tired. But this time I didn't let those thoughts get to me because I had a mantra of "Don't get shffled" because I was playing against a Falco. Through a super fast paced but equally grueling set I took down the Falco that I had never beat before in ten games. It came down to the last stock similar percents but that didn't even bother me, I stuck to my "don't get naired" gameplan and took the last stock. The feeling I got after was one of the best feelings I've ever had in my life. It was like I was floating, I felt so fulfilled. I was playing so well and during the entire losers run I saw and felt all of the work I had put in pay off. I'm sure you've had a super similar experience yourself when you win. The best part is I'm even more inspired to work harder.

Also thank you to Kotastic for the advice, really helped even with only a few meditation sessions.

Sorry for the wall but it feels important for me to share and if anyone has a few thoughts on those few paragraphs I would appreciate it a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IdJeKq-PY8

At 0:00 I get a shine and then whiff an upair. I think my idea was to hold stage by just sh bairing back into center, but the low platform and the fact that I jumped made him catch me. Is this position just bad for Falco if I whiff the upair here? Options that come to mind once I land are wd down, run passed without jumping, full hop again, shooting a sh high laser to hit him coming down (not sure if that's good because idk how I would convert that laser into an advantage because this peach lovesss to d smash).

A similar position happened 0:11 where after I get the bair, I go for a fh fair. But then I try to defend stage with a sh high laser whereas I definitely should have done a bair. So is it better to chase peach in the air and then use your superior ff speed even if you miss to hold stage (if that's even possible?) Or is it better to just hold the stage instead of chasing them immediately to set up better for the next interaction?

At 0:15 is the defensive nair I do good at close range vs peach? I've been trying to stay away from sh high dairs in scuffle situations because it loses to them just shielding or moving back and whiff punishing; two simple really common options. I think my idea was to be spaced in case they do shield, contest them putting out a hitbox (jab or dash attack) and I couldn't dash back laser cause of the side platform.

at 0:20 he floats. This position seems great for peach beacuse they're focing a mixup and if I dash back laser to avoid the mixup situation I corner myself. So is dash back full hop back flip then fall with spaced bair or dj a good option there? Is this a tool I should be using more on fod because this situation comes up more often? The option I picked of dash back laser didn't even seem that safe there because they can just float more and then d smash closer to the edge

In general with a side platform that messes up your lasers I feel like you either have to preemptive full hop bair to catch them coming in or go to the side plat preemptively. Because if they're doing a kind of high float it's hard to directly contest once they're over you or coming closer and on fod if you do only one dash back laser you corner yourself. And against high float it just feels like a gamble with the timing or your sh bair. Like at 0:27 I do an awkward bair that puts me in a not great position, because I can't dash back laser.

Thanks so much again PP, I wouldn't have been able to do it without you. Hope you're doing well.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Really cool man! You are taking the work and really applying it here. The more you train your mind and find what works for you, the better you can immerse yourself. The flow feeds on itself and ends up helping you enjoy things even more. Be careful not to just expect these results to continue happening and continue putting in the work. Getting caught off guard after things like this can really shake people up.

You should have been hit out of that Uair whiff in the air, but anyway when on the ground you could have turnaround Utilted, or dash to center Baired, or probably dash jump shined the landing.

You should have used Uair after reacting to Dair or maybe jump shine to hit her landing if you were a bit risky, or just run toward center and SH/FH/DJ Bair. The laser doesn't beat anything.

Because Peach was in the air, and you didn't drift back, the Nair didn't help much here. If Peach was grounded maybe it could have been different, but you could have jabbed or something here.

I believe you can dash SH Fair/Uair this float, but it also should be pretty reliable to Bair her if she even gets kind of close(Utilt often enough too). You could have gone over her and tried to Dair, or you could have maybe gone for that FH Bair/laser mixup but I'm not so sure how well that would have worked. Worth trying over this laser though. If you shot a bit higher of a laser you could have hit her as she landed on the platform but it wouldn't have done you much good.

At 0:27 you attack from too far away, which is your main issue with float I can see. You can't hit her if you're always too far.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Really cool man! You are taking the work and really applying it here. The more you train your mind and find what works for you, the better you can immerse yourself. The flow feeds on itself and ends up helping you enjoy things even more. Be careful not to just expect these results to continue happening and continue putting in the work. Getting caught off guard after things like this can really shake people up.

You should have been hit out of that Uair whiff in the air, but anyway when on the ground you could have turnaround Utilted, or dash to center Baired, or probably dash jump shined the landing.

You should have used Uair after reacting to Dair or maybe jump shine to hit her landing if you were a bit risky, or just run toward center and SH/FH/DJ Bair. The laser doesn't beat anything.

Because Peach was in the air, and you didn't drift back, the Nair didn't help much here. If Peach was grounded maybe it could have been different, but you could have jabbed or something here.

I believe you can dash SH Fair/Uair this float, but it also should be pretty reliable to Bair her if she even gets kind of close(Utilt often enough too). You could have gone over her and tried to Dair, or you could have maybe gone for that FH Bair/laser mixup but I'm not so sure how well that would have worked. Worth trying over this laser though. If you shot a bit higher of a laser you could have hit her as she landed on the platform but it wouldn't have done you much good.

At 0:27 you attack from too far away, which is your main issue with float I can see. You can't hit her if you're always too far.

After the tourney I felt even more inspired to work harder, which is a feeling I'm super grateful for. Thankfully I don't think I'll get complacent anytime soon.

I think I defend against float from far away because I'm just really scared to be anywhere near peach without a hitbox out. And in order to do that I feel like I first need to establish a laser or some sense of balance from far away. So yeah I'm not really comfortable on fod because of that.

I feel like that entire game on FoD I was responding to what my opponent was doing. Is there a way on that stage to be more proactive? Should I have just held center with defensive hitboxes more?

At 0:34 after I got the shine in front of peach's shield I go to the side platform. This is an option I used A LOT this tourney. Just skimming through the vods it seems like it normally gets them to throw out a hitbox which subsequently trades with my dair. What do you think of the option in general? I'm scared to shine grab which I'm really trying to fix but I think that's why I resorted to that option so much. Another example is at 6:23.

At 2:34 what do those lasers accomplish? After those lasers instead of doing that bair, should I have just waited and then done a nair in on him falling back to center? Is the sh bair that I do even good?

At 3:36 I did that one laser. When should I be shooting lasers from the top plat and when should I instead be repositioning to defend the stage more easily? I guess in that position the peach was simply too close to hit her with any fh or sh lasers and still have time to set up for a bair or something.

At 5:43 I do a cross up nair into a shine that whiffs into full hop. How are you supposed to take advantage of crossing up her shield? Up tilt? Sh bair? Do another cross up on her shield to potentially catch a roll?

At 3:45 what did I do wrong? I know you say that there's a lot of meaning in one dash but against peach if you only do one dash doesn't that mean that they know super easily what you're threatening? But if you mix up your dd timings and go back and forth pretty often then youre visibly threatening sh nair/fair and retreating laser/sh bair.

At 6:13 I try to laser jab the peach, then I do this weird DA. How does shield pressure change when they have a turnip? What should I be doing instead of that really bad DA?

Is it sometimes better to just outspace their fc fair and instead try to fight the next position? I kind of got messed up by jabs in this game so I'm thinking it's real tough for Falco and he needs a read on the jabs and the timing of them.

What is the definition of a gameplan?

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you want to be proactive, then you can do the platform lasers more or stay a bit closer to float so you can hit him if he comes down or go into him if he decides to overshoot.

It's good and can help you follow up, but vs Peach if she was going to Nair OOS right after your shine anyway you would have lost. Also if you do it too much then people could wait for it and punish you. Better as a mixup/if you think they'll try to shield grab or act oos and you'll hit them.

First lasers damage, lower one makes her burn her option. That Bair was not good and I'm not sure it could have beaten much if anything she would've done. If you SH Nair you'd likely trade or lose to his Bair, but FH Nair in between his Dair and Bair could work. Your Bair may have encouraged him to go toward center so it was a little okay in that way.

Those lasers would've been okay if they hit. You just need to be more accurate or just reposition instead.

Yeah lots you can do there. Bair or pressure from the back can be good. Crossing up again is okay. Mixing in some lasers can be alright too. Being behind Peach can be pretty good since she can't grab or Nair OOS here. She can reverse up-B though and of course roll/WD away or predict you with a Bair OOS like she does here so that's what you're looking to cover.

You waited until she landed to start doing anything, so it looks like you weren't sure what to do and maybe trying to figure out how to approach or something. Either way the extra dashes distracted you. If you jumped when she Nair'd in you could have Bair'd her directly or her jabs after landing, though Dair probably would have worked too, or laser if you were spaced more.

They can't grab or Nair OOS anymore but can still up-B OOS so you can space a bit more/bait that out. You just need to watch for turnip throws OOS I guess. You could have grabbed after the jab, or lasered, or done an aerial, or walk/JC shined, etc.

Yeah sometimes you just have to dodge Fair then hit her jabs or let her move back and laser that.

A gameplan is the word that encompasses all of your strategies. From situational counters to knowing what options beat what to shield pressure to combos and DI and so on.

 

[PAWN1]

Hey PP, just wanted to wish you well what with the hurricane coming towards the Carolina area. Hope you and your family/friends all are safe!

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

If you want to be proactive, then you can do the platform lasers more or stay a bit closer to float so you can hit him if he comes down or go into him if he decides to overshoot.

It's good and can help you follow up, but vs Peach if she was going to Nair OOS right after your shine anyway you would have lost. Also if you do it too much then people could wait for it and punish you. Better as a mixup/if you think they'll try to shield grab or act oos and you'll hit them.

First lasers damage, lower one makes her burn her option. That Bair was not good and I'm not sure it could have beaten much if anything she would've done. If you SH Nair you'd likely trade or lose to his Bair, but FH Nair in between his Dair and Bair could work. Your Bair may have encouraged him to go toward center so it was a little okay in that way.

Those lasers would've been okay if they hit. You just need to be more accurate or just reposition instead.

Yeah lots you can do there. Bair or pressure from the back can be good. Crossing up again is okay. Mixing in some lasers can be alright too. Being behind Peach can be pretty good since she can't grab or Nair OOS here. She can reverse up-B though and of course roll/WD away or predict you with a Bair OOS like she does here so that's what you're looking to cover.

You waited until she landed to start doing anything, so it looks like you weren't sure what to do and maybe trying to figure out how to approach or something. Either way the extra dashes distracted you. If you jumped when she Nair'd in you could have Bair'd her directly or her jabs after landing, though Dair probably would have worked too, or laser if you were spaced more.

They can't grab or Nair OOS anymore but can still up-B OOS so you can space a bit more/bait that out. You just need to watch for turnip throws OOS I guess. You could have grabbed after the jab, or lasered, or done an aerial, or walk/JC shined, etc.

Yeah sometimes you just have to dodge Fair then hit her jabs or let her move back and laser that.

A gameplan is the word that encompasses all of your strategies. From situational counters to knowing what options beat what to shield pressure to combos and DI and so on.

What is the main mixup to use along with the shine waveland on side plat?

My intention with that bair was actually to push her towards center. But since that bair didn't accomplish anything else, how can I both discourage her from coming to the ledge effectively and then still have time to nair through her dair and bair? Should I have maybe just dashed towards center at first to set up a bair and then somehow covered ledge had she tried to ff down there? This same position happens at 7:17 but instead he ff down and air dodges onto stage. What should I have done there instead?

When I'm behind her and she's in shield is my main goal to discourage her bair oos, get a grab, or try to bait something else out and get a shine/dair? Or do all of those things work in tangent with one another? I now see why approaching grounded peach is so good. Because if you land a laser in front of her you get that walk shine/pivot bair mixup. Rr if you land on top of her you get a favorable shield pressure mixup there and if you land behind her that's also good for you. I guess it's just up to me to figure out how to recognize and then capitalize on each situation.

So the extra dashes distracted me because I don't have a deep enough understanding of them? Is it that simple?

Against peach in shield with a turnip how do you avoid the turnip but also space against up b oos? Am I respecting the turnip too much?

I tested against the jabs and I figured out that it's much easier to contest them if you drift in with a hitbox instead of sh dair/bair while in their range or immediately drifting towards them.

When you say you "let peach move back" does that mean you throw out a defensive hitbox to guard against dash attack and then once you confirm that they moved back you laser?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IdJeKq-PY8&t=403s (Same set)

at 7:00, what should I have done after the laser? Is there a way to respond safely to both their wd back options and them just shielding without wding back?

At 7:03 when I shoot a laser and he jumps at the same time, how should Falco play this position? How does he contest the float without having platforms to shoot her out of the higher float that he can't sh fair/nair? I spammed laser in turn around up tilt/sh bair a lot in this game because that's the only option I know to contest the slightly higher float aggressively. Should I just try wait these floats out and then try to contest more so when she goes on the ground?

Besides the fact that you can't laser her float from side platforms, in what other major ways does neutral change on fd?

At 7:08 he powershields my laser, is this defensive full hop good in general vs peach on fd? How is it in this situation? Is defensive full hop better when you have your back turned so you have a bair/laser mixup instead of a dair/laser mixup? Is full hop something I should consider more on fd so that I can control the air better or should I use it less because there's no platform mixups?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Anything that beats her acting immediately after shine I guess, so double shine or shine immediate aerial I suppose. It might be possible she can react to you doing shine waveland and punishing your landing lag, and if that's true then maybe wavelanding off the platform instead of down, or DJ'ing out of shine instead of wavelanding.

You could Utilt in place I suppose, or just hold the position with your back toward the edge so it's clear what you're threatening. Your other solution to move toward center works fine too and is more in line with what I would do. Also if she goes straight to edge like that you can SH out a bit before DJ Bair'ing. No need to immediately do it always it'll whiff.

Those options work together. You're mainly looking at beating Bair OOS vs roll away vs the average Peach if I had to guess.

Doing many inputs distracts your brain is one part(this is why I say keep it simple). Another is you didn't seem to know the position such as what she might do or what you could do or how to manipulate her. Another is what you said.

Getting close enough to keep hitting her shield but far enough from up-B is a good start, but if you can show you can counter both options you can manipulate her. I don't think there is anything perfect you can do here to always cover everything. Doing stuff like spaced Bair can be pretty good at dodging both but can lose to her WD back turnip throw for example. I will say though the turnip isn't that scary so yeah you're probably respecting it too much.

No I meant she moves back after Fair with dash or WD back so you hit that instead. You could throw out something a bit preemptive to try and beat both moving in and moving away but I don't think that is reliable.

You didn't WD back? I don't understand this question. But your laser in here would work if she just held shield or WD'd back but you should have just confirmed she WD'd back and tried to get a little closer to hit her(unless you were worried about jabs/DA then I guess you did the right thing but made the wrong call).

You can do DJ FF laser to hit her out of this float, but you need to make sure you have space to do it. Otherwise holding your ground with Utilt/Bair can be helpful. Options like what you use here are alright too.

Falco not being able to attack from platforms means his attacks are much more straightforward. It also means Peach can't hide under a side platform to avoid his higher attacks.

That FH and defensive FH in general is fine. It's mostly aggressive FH that can get you bodied. Facing forward can sometimes be better so she can't get under your Bair/laser with DA so easily. If you're spaced alright/she doesn't react perfectly then it probably won't matter though. I wouldn't say/not sure it's something to do a ton but it's not bad to do sometimes.

 

[MegaXmas]

greetings again master PP. I need some advice. Recently I've been having trouble dealing with aggressive foxes. I do well vs patient foxes that allow me to take my time, think, and set up my positioning. All off that is throw out of wack when i have to make very fast decisions and rely on 50/50 mix ups when a fox rushes me down. I've been having trouble with 2 foxes with different playstyles but are equally aggressive. The first is a guy named Smashdaddy, who you may have heard of. He was from North Carolina and moved to socal recently and has been doing very well. He is a rushdown type fox, the kind who is basically always going in. His main neutral approaches tend to be nairs in at the correct time, powershielding a laser then nairing in, or taking the laser and then nairing in. He'll dash dance a little bit to mix up the timing but in the end his goal is always to move forward and approach. And just when i think i have his timings on lock and i go for a defensive option like fade away dair/ac bair/uptilt he will perfectly time a fullhop and punish me for it. He mixes up all these options very well and will frequently kill me off one grab. I have a hard time managing to deal with his fast style which gives me no room to breath. i am a player who really relies on positioning and "positional traps" - (fiction) but when those dont work I tend to fall apart and overcommit.

The other fox who really gives me a lot of trouble is Lucky. Vs me, he plays this very aggressive zoning style where he will position himself very close to me and wait just outside my range. He is amazing at avoiding uptilts and bairs probably due to all of his practice against westballz and mango. He will wait for me to make a mistake or throw out a panic option and punish me very hard for it. When he gets in on me his pressure is insane and I dont know how to deal with his offense. For example: when he shield pressures me, he will put on the pressure for a little while and then retreat back to that zone where he is right outside my range and cover my defensive options. The only time I can really manage to hit him is when I play super patient and either use the platforms, be aggressive and just try to go at him (he catches on to this very quickly) or read his movement. Also a fox who has a tremendous understanding of how to abuse fox's fullhop in the match up and mix that in when I am trying to cover a different option.

Its not like I cannot take a set or 2 off these players, but they dominate me the majority of the time. I feel particularly lost against Lucky. He seems to have an endless bag of tricks and catches on to my habits very fast. If you have any advice vs these styles of foxes, I would like to hear what you have to say

 

[AnonymousID]

Hey PP, I know you're known for watching your own gameplay to improve yourself. Lately I've been doing the same in order to figure out situations that I don't really understand and practicing the scenarios in 20xx. I've found this to be extremely helpful and I've noticed I actually use what I've practiced in actual games and it's crazy how much this helps. However when I watch my gameplay I've noticed that there's so many different things I can work on. What I'm wondering is how many scenarios should I be working on at a time before I try them out in real games. Ideally I would want to work on like everything at once but I feel as if that won't be feasible and I would forget a lot of the things I learned. Any advice would be helpful thanks!

 

[Dr Peepee]

This is hard to answer without more specifics, but let's start generally. When dealing with aggressive Fox, you want to be able to slow them down when you can so they get uncomfortable and often try to force the pace up again and it's an easy punish. But you also need to be able to play quickly when you can so they can't overwhelm you. So slowing Fox down doesn't necessarily involve shooting a lot of lasers, but can also involve dash/WD back to give up space and counter their possible approaches. This makes them more likely to slow down in case you do options like this. Holding down vs the Nair to shine or shining oos when you have advantage is something that can come from these options. Turning your back is great too but you may be making it too obvious by doing laser into immediate turnaround Utilt when a later Utilt or doing something besides a laser(or doing a retreating laser/differently spaced laser) would be working better.

For specifics, shooting low lasers makes it very hard to PS and it also makes countering PS'd lasers easier too. You can shoot then aerial in or SH backward to Bair threaten if you think they could hold shield in addition to aerial so you can beat both. You can also back up more after you shoot so when he WDs oos then Nairs in you can definitely have space to stop him. For taking laser then Nair in, you can either back up after laser to counter SH Nair in, or hold down/set up Utilt/Bair to time with them getting inside a range they will SH Nair and otherwise being primed for FH Nair which can also lose to both, though Utilt is easier to hit here. If he starts waiting, then try not to immediately commit to moves after laser especially if you have time to react to him fully committing. Beyond this I'd need more specifics/video examples.

Yeah Lucky is really good at this matchup. He often can throw out his gameplan if you begin challenging him so that's something you should look for imo. If he gets close then you don't need to assume he's attacking and try doing dash/WD back to get a bit of extra time to observe him before choosing to throw something out. If he pressures, don't assume he will stay on your shield and you can often WD back OOS or even laser OOS if you suspect he will do something like aerial shine WD away. Learning where the holes are in his common pressure will help you a lot. Again, more specifics can help more here.

Let me know if this is helpful.

Hey PP, I know you're known for watching your own gameplay to improve yourself. Lately I've been doing the same in order to figure out situations that I don't really understand and practicing the scenarios in 20xx. I've found this to be extremely helpful and I've noticed I actually use what I've practiced in actual games and it's crazy how much this helps. However when I watch my gameplay I've noticed that there's so many different things I can work on. What I'm wondering is how many scenarios should I be working on at a time before I try them out in real games. Ideally I would want to work on like everything at once but I feel as if that won't be feasible and I would forget a lot of the things I learned. Any advice would be helpful thanks!

So I would usually prioritize by what is the most common problem/would give me the biggest boost to my play. And I'd work on things at least until I felt I had enough ideas to really test a lot when I played again. Sometimes I would go until I was very satisfied with every single problem, so it honestly will depend on how much time you are spending watching vs playing as well. I think chasing the feeling of excitement to play is good, and once you feel you have enough to have a good, productive session with someone again then that's okay. It's fine to go beyond that too. The main thing is you take one problem at a time so you always enjoy what's in front of you instead of being overwhelmed.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Anything that beats her acting immediately after shine I guess, so double shine or shine immediate aerial I suppose. It might be possible she can react to you doing shine waveland and punishing your landing lag, and if that's true then maybe wavelanding off the platform instead of down, or DJ'ing out of shine instead of wavelanding.

You could Utilt in place I suppose, or just hold the position with your back toward the edge so it's clear what you're threatening. Your other solution to move toward center works fine too and is more in line with what I would do. Also if she goes straight to edge like that you can SH out a bit before DJ Bair'ing. No need to immediately do it always it'll whiff.

Those options work together. You're mainly looking at beating Bair OOS vs roll away vs the average Peach if I had to guess.

Doing many inputs distracts your brain is one part(this is why I say keep it simple). Another is you didn't seem to know the position such as what she might do or what you could do or how to manipulate her. Another is what you said.

Getting close enough to keep hitting her shield but far enough from up-B is a good start, but if you can show you can counter both options you can manipulate her. I don't think there is anything perfect you can do here to always cover everything. Doing stuff like spaced Bair can be pretty good at dodging both but can lose to her WD back turnip throw for example. I will say though the turnip isn't that scary so yeah you're probably respecting it too much.

No I meant she moves back after Fair with dash or WD back so you hit that instead. You could throw out something a bit preemptive to try and beat both moving in and moving away but I don't think that is reliable.

You didn't WD back? I don't understand this question. But your laser in here would work if she just held shield or WD'd back but you should have just confirmed she WD'd back and tried to get a little closer to hit her(unless you were worried about jabs/DA then I guess you did the right thing but made the wrong call).

You can do DJ FF laser to hit her out of this float, but you need to make sure you have space to do it. Otherwise holding your ground with Utilt/Bair can be helpful. Options like what you use here are alright too.

Falco not being able to attack from platforms means his attacks are much more straightforward. It also means Peach can't hide under a side platform to avoid his higher attacks.

That FH and defensive FH in general is fine. It's mostly aggressive FH that can get you bodied. Facing forward can sometimes be better so she can't get under your Bair/laser with DA so easily. If you're spaced alright/she doesn't react perfectly then it probably won't matter though. I wouldn't say/not sure it's something to do a ton but it's not bad to do sometimes.

For the position where I dash into stage to set up bair on her coming back to stage from high, but she instead decided to go to the ledge, how do you cover that ff if there’s a short fod platform there to cover your sh laser f tilt/f smash?

What I meant is that the peach did a wd back when I went in. So I’m asking how to deal with both spacings of her wd shield/dmash or just shielding initially without wd back. I remember I did the shine retreating dair because I wasn’t confident of what to do and retreating aerials seem to be pretty safe vs grounded peach. I’m not confident that you can confirm either one or the other and then make the appropriate decision. Maybe I can sh immediately after lasering in and then confirm one or the other and then do a late aerial/laser?

So peach can mess you up if you do a bad aggressive full hop but at the same time her not being able to hide from those approaches is one of falcos main advantages on fd?

I recently went to a tourney where I was the 1 seed. I’m really ashamed to admit that I was more scared of losing to someone seeded lower than me than I was excited the opportunity to play and practice in tourney. I pride myself on my consistency as a spacie player and I haven’t yet lost to someone considered worse than me this season. I’ve been rereading your post to mega Xmas about this same topic but when it comes down to it I don’t know how apply that info in game.

At that tourney I also realized that it takes a while to get back into a tournament mindset. I’ve realized that I go through a similar list of realizations during tourneys that help me play better, so I might make a list of those questions that i ask myself and then answer them before every tourney. Do you have a process that helps you get into that mindset?

So if I want to simplify my gameplay, should I be going into every situation with a set of simple mixups?

If I’m analyzing how do I make sure that the options I analyze don’t translate into overcomplication when I try applying them? What are the implications if that does happen?

How can I avoid over complicating my gameplay if i don’t already understand the mixups I have in a given situation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN76cT8QIZE&t=613s

at 0:27 after I dodge his dair with shield drop, I always do this full hop bair because it's low risk medium reward. But I've found that it normally doesn't hit because they just shield. I also don't want to directly hit their shield like with waveland grab/shine. What else can I do here? Poke with sh upair? Maybe do a instant dj space bair on shield? If I want to play the next position how do I best set up for that?

at 0:33 how do you cover the side b ledgecancel in that position? The other falco did that a lot to me this set and I don't really know how to beat it without hard reading it initially. It happens again at 1:09 and I do the same laser jab chase. I think in both of those situations I should have done laser grab instead but still I feel like there should be a better way to get a bigger punish.

At 0:56 he tries to walk forward shine me after landing a close laser. I know that the Falco I was playing against uses that option a lot What do you like to do vs that option? Jab? F tilt? Do your own shine?

Right after I land that f tilt he full hop nairs, do you like to chase full hops in the Falco ditto? Or just hold the ground? I can see it being good by forcing them to do an early dair/bair but if you're late on the chase then they probably have leverage in that situation because they're falling with their aerial. At 3:16 he also full hops away and I try to chase with bair which doesn't work out cause I was really late, I think I was just trying to secure the kill. Is it okay to not cover full hop and just let them give up the ground?

At 1:50 he tries to do take laser turn around up tilt against my lasers. How do you get a punish against it if you know they're gonna do it but don't know the timing of the up tilt?

At 2:15 how good do you think playing the side platform is there? What does doing sh lasering there accomplish while they're on the ground?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Try not to go so far toward center then so you can dash/WD toward edge to Ftilt her or aerial her. You could also just get on the side platform and begin controlling from there.

You can confirm she WD'd back, it's pretty slow. If she does it at the last second before you come in I guess it's different, but in the clip you definitely had time. If you can't react out of deep laser, then don't deep laser as it's already risky enough. Approach with more aerials or slight lasers and set up more Bair on her landing so if she moves back you'll just whiff or you can turnaround laser. I think if you like fully approaching laser you can do your retreating aerial sometimes and then observe what she does as well after you aerial and do a counter to that next time if you don't want to react.

Sort of yeah. She doesn't super fear regular FH/DJ approaches anyway based on my current understanding, so the downside is worse than the upside in this case.

Maybe it can help if you bring in ideas you want to apply in tourney that you've been working on in practice/analysis and that can help balance out your anxiety. Maybe it can help to talk about what specifically you think about events and logically and emotionally work on that outside of events. Maybe it's related to a greater anxiety that competing just brings out and you'll need to spend lots of time tackling separately. It helps to stay flexible and proactive when going after these things.

Making that list is definitely helpful. I may remind myself of some in-game things, but I also go through mental and physical processes I find that bring out my best gameplay and then do those as much as I can day of the event and right before I play.

Yes.

Sometimes things will get really complicated before it simplifies again because you're picking up on all kinds of nuance that needs to come together. Just keep working on it if you recognize it and see when you can push it toward simplicity when possible.

Start with learning about your tools and how they work together, and then those of the opponent. Many people jump straight into trying to beat things when they don't know what they even have.

Yeah you could go for Uair shield poke behind their back where they tilted their shield away from. You can DJ Bair that's good too. DJ land then mixup or DJ fall through platform then mixup. Can threaten the same FH Bair but using dashes or empty hops....etc.

Based on that DJ you do, the only option is to shoot a laser at the spot he'd need to be at to side B edgecancel. You shouldn't have DJ'd and just stayed on side platform or runoff to the ground to prepare for the mixup. From there you can change DJ or runoff DJ timing to Dair it for example.

Lmfao that Ftilt. Well you could have DJ'd out of the air after getting lasered or WL'd back I suppose. You could also have dash back AC Bair'd or some other option out of dash back here looks like. Depends on how close the other Falco is, and sometimes if they're good at the position it can be better to shield sometimes.

That would've been kind of hard to punish in particular since he faded back so late, but I might've done dash back FH Bair to beat it. Sometimes you have to let it go if you react late, and sometimes if you're ready it's great to shine the landing. Not always possible to shine it so just hitting them is great to either get a knockdown or get them closer to knockdown percent and also to potentially unstale your pressure moves.

 

[peedy]

So about a week ago I read about the importance of relaxation and learning motor tasks. So normally when I practice things like wave-dash's I feel a little stressed but this week I decided to do something different. Each morning I woke up I practiced mindfulness for 3 hours. I should do it all day but haven't been able to find a way without getting too stressed. After my mindfulness I would practice my tech skill but this time I wasn't concentrating on my tech skill per say but on going into a meditative trance and relaxing while practicing my tech skill as fast as possible without losing my meditative state. If you've ever been in a state like this than you understand the difference between being in a meditative trance and not. And it's very easy to get out of one

I've always read that musicians and karate experts would practice slow to go fast and I've always done this how ever now I feel like that advice is misled. Practicing slow isn't the only part but practicing slow while relaxingThe more relaxed you are the faster you learn motor skills not just short term but long term. I was interested after hearing about navy seals learning languages a lot faster from their brain waves and how this applied to athletes

After doing this I can now multishine like westballz (Not an exaggeration) I can multi-shine on shield perfectly (which is hard after doing westballz multi-shines since it has a different timing) and my lasers are perfect. Not only can I wave dash back and forth perfectly with no lag in-between like the big dr peepee himself but I can actually react faster before my lag ends for wavedash's and shl a lot faster. I can also waveland off randall fairly consistently now. Admittedly these are things I've been working on for a while but the improvements I've made in the last few days has been more big to my gameplay the past week.

Either way relaxation is extremely important to learning tech skill. Think people should know this. In-fact when shadowboxing if you are visualizing your opponents through your minds eye then it automatically puts you into an alpha state of mind which is could speed up your learning by a lot. Hope someone will apply this information as I think you can learn tech skill possible 3 times faster and in fact I think if I hadn't learned this I would have been stuck.

Musicians talk about this a lot where new students will learn piano and won't practice slow and then will have a sticking point that they cant get past. Practicing slow fixes this but again I don't think it's practicing slow but practicing slow while being as mentally relaxed as possible is important so as to develop muscle memory. This also might be why athletes who visualize how they should move are more effect because visualizing puts you into this trance state.

Besides the important of mindfulness before this relaxation point. It's important to practice for 45 minutes if you can mentally handle it. The reason being is because of something I learned about called attention residue which is when you start a task you spend 20 minutes thinking about whatever you were doing previously in the back of your mind. This isn't a conscious thing. This seems to be why it takes the average person 20 minutes to get into a trance state although experienced meditators this is much shorter. This is also the reason for the tetris effect. Even a little distraction could do this to you. I'm finding I make my best progress from the 30-45 minute mark as I become completely engrossed in the process. For someone who has poor attention/focus/concentration this might not be possible but is extremely important to build up to. When taking a break though you shouldn't check email or watch tv but just focus on relaxing so as not to trigger this attention residue

Anyways hoping to apply the shadow boxing to marth in particular and just thought this post could be of benefit to everyone trying to get past sticking points in tech skill and trying to learn tech faster but hope one or two take this post seriously as this might be the fastest way for an individual to improve. Their's a trick I learned for shadow boxing but want to try to apply it before I write anything else thanks to who-ever read this

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Try not to go so far toward center then so you can dash/WD toward edge to Ftilt her or aerial her. You could also just get on the side platform and begin controlling from there.

You can confirm she WD'd back, it's pretty slow. If she does it at the last second before you come in I guess it's different, but in the clip you definitely had time. If you can't react out of deep laser, then don't deep laser as it's already risky enough. Approach with more aerials or slight lasers and set up more Bair on her landing so if she moves back you'll just whiff or you can turnaround laser. I think if you like fully approaching laser you can do your retreating aerial sometimes and then observe what she does as well after you aerial and do a counter to that next time if you don't want to react.

Sort of yeah. She doesn't super fear regular FH/DJ approaches anyway based on my current understanding, so the downside is worse than the upside in this case.

Maybe it can help if you bring in ideas you want to apply in tourney that you've been working on in practice/analysis and that can help balance out your anxiety. Maybe it can help to talk about what specifically you think about events and logically and emotionally work on that outside of events. Maybe it's related to a greater anxiety that competing just brings out and you'll need to spend lots of time tackling separately. It helps to stay flexible and proactive when going after these things.

Making that list is definitely helpful. I may remind myself of some in-game things, but I also go through mental and physical processes I find that bring out my best gameplay and then do those as much as I can day of the event and right before I play.

Yes.

Sometimes things will get really complicated before it simplifies again because you're picking up on all kinds of nuance that needs to come together. Just keep working on it if you recognize it and see when you can push it toward simplicity when possible.

Start with learning about your tools and how they work together, and then those of the opponent. Many people jump straight into trying to beat things when they don't know what they even have.

Yeah you could go for Uair shield poke behind their back where they tilted their shield away from. You can DJ Bair that's good too. DJ land then mixup or DJ fall through platform then mixup. Can threaten the same FH Bair but using dashes or empty hops....etc.

Based on that DJ you do, the only option is to shoot a laser at the spot he'd need to be at to side B edgecancel. You shouldn't have DJ'd and just stayed on side platform or runoff to the ground to prepare for the mixup. From there you can change DJ or runoff DJ timing to Dair it for example.

Lmfao that Ftilt. Well you could have DJ'd out of the air after getting lasered or WL'd back I suppose. You could also have dash back AC Bair'd or some other option out of dash back here looks like. Depends on how close the other Falco is, and sometimes if they're good at the position it can be better to shield sometimes.

That would've been kind of hard to punish in particular since he faded back so late, but I might've done dash back FH Bair to beat it. Sometimes you have to let it go if you react late, and sometimes if you're ready it's great to shine the landing. Not always possible to shine it so just hitting them is great to either get a knockdown or get them closer to knockdown percent and also to potentially unstale your pressure moves.

Can you give an example of how things can get complicated before they get simple?

So yesterday I practiced full hopping with no drift/ff/dj, then just ff with different drifts, then just ff with different ff, then fh with different dj. I also did some sh stuff and dash/wd stuff as well. Just trying to learn my tools as you say and get a better feel for Falco. Where else should I be looking in terms of making connections with my own tools?

Do you recommend analyzing videos just for the sake of finding other tools that people use?

What is your definition of a tool?

 

[Dr Peepee]

So about a week ago I read about the importance of relaxation and learning motor tasks. So normally when I practice things like wave-dash's I feel a little stressed but this week I decided to do something different. Each morning I woke up I practiced mindfulness for 3 hours. I should do it all day but haven't been able to find a way without getting too stressed. After my mindfulness I would practice my tech skill but this time I wasn't concentrating on my tech skill per say but on going into a meditative trance and relaxing while practicing my tech skill as fast as possible without losing my meditative state. If you've ever been in a state like this than you understand the difference between being in a meditative trance and not. And it's very easy to get out of one

I've always read that musicians and karate experts would practice slow to go fast and I've always done this how ever now I feel like that advice is misled. Practicing slow isn't the only part but practicing slow while relaxingThe more relaxed you are the faster you learn motor skills not just short term but long term. I was interested after hearing about navy seals learning languages a lot faster from their brain waves and how this applied to athletes

After doing this I can now multishine like westballz (Not an exaggeration) I can multi-shine on shield perfectly (which is hard after doing westballz multi-shines since it has a different timing) and my lasers are perfect. Not only can I wave dash back and forth perfectly with no lag in-between like the big dr peepee himself but I can actually react faster before my lag ends for wavedash's and shl a lot faster. I can also waveland off randall fairly consistently now. Admittedly these are things I've been working on for a while but the improvements I've made in the last few days has been more big to my gameplay the past week.

Either way relaxation is extremely important to learning tech skill. Think people should know this. In-fact when shadowboxing if you are visualizing your opponents through your minds eye then it automatically puts you into an alpha state of mind which is could speed up your learning by a lot. Hope someone will apply this information as I think you can learn tech skill possible 3 times faster and in fact I think if I hadn't learned this I would have been stuck.

Musicians talk about this a lot where new students will learn piano and won't practice slow and then will have a sticking point that they cant get past. Practicing slow fixes this but again I don't think it's practicing slow but practicing slow while being as mentally relaxed as possible is important so as to develop muscle memory. This also might be why athletes who visualize how they should move are more effect because visualizing puts you into this trance state.

Besides the important of mindfulness before this relaxation point. It's important to practice for 45 minutes if you can mentally handle it. The reason being is because of something I learned about called attention residue which is when you start a task you spend 20 minutes thinking about whatever you were doing previously in the back of your mind. This isn't a conscious thing. This seems to be why it takes the average person 20 minutes to get into a trance state although experienced meditators this is much shorter. This is also the reason for the tetris effect. Even a little distraction could do this to you. I'm finding I make my best progress from the 30-45 minute mark as I become completely engrossed in the process. For someone who has poor attention/focus/concentration this might not be possible but is extremely important to build up to. When taking a break though you shouldn't check email or watch tv but just focus on relaxing so as not to trigger this attention residue

Anyways hoping to apply the shadow boxing to marth in particular and just thought this post could be of benefit to everyone trying to get past sticking points in tech skill and trying to learn tech faster but hope one or two take this post seriously as this might be the fastest way for an individual to improve. Their's a trick I learned for shadow boxing but want to try to apply it before I write anything else thanks to who-ever read this

Attention residue does explain a couple things for me, but I've found I could reduce it like you said.

Agreed with relaxation being insanely important. It made my reactions and thinking much clearer as well. I do hope people will take your post seriously.

Can you give an example of how things can get complicated before they get simple?

So yesterday I practiced full hopping with no drift/ff/dj, then just ff with different drifts, then just ff with different ff, then fh with different dj. I also did some sh stuff and dash/wd stuff as well. Just trying to learn my tools as you say and get a better feel for Falco. Where else should I be looking in terms of making connections with my own tools?

Do you recommend analyzing videos just for the sake of finding other tools that people use?

What is your definition of a tool?

So when looking at shield pressure, you learn frames and hitbox interactions and practice what's possible and think of how fast the opponent could be but also what you can get away with if they're off balance, etc.....and it eventually coalesces into a couple rules like you should normally double shine or space on shield and mixup with shine grab or whatever. You can still build upon all of this of course, but that doesn't change the process.

Laser at different speeds and with turnaround, perhaps some grounded tools.

That's a fine use of analysis.

A tool is an option you can use.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Attention residue does explain a couple things for me, but I've found I could reduce it like you said.

Agreed with relaxation being insanely important. It made my reactions and thinking much clearer as well. I do hope people will take your post seriously.


So when looking at shield pressure, you learn frames and hitbox interactions and practice what's possible and think of how fast the opponent could be but also what you can get away with if they're off balance, etc.....and it eventually coalesces into a couple rules like you should normally double shine or space on shield and mixup with shine grab or whatever. You can still build upon all of this of course, but that doesn't change the process.

Laser at different speeds and with turnaround, perhaps some grounded tools.

That's a fine use of analysis.

A tool is an option you can use.

I feel like I've been playing Falco long enough to be aware of all of his major tools (this is probably pretty arrogant of me to say). So when I discover new tools he has in neutral the more niche they tend to be. So I guess another way of playing around with tools is either strengthening the main ones in your arsenal, vs discovering new ones for each situation. So which one should be my main goal right now? To look for new tools (I found wd back f tilt yesterday as an example even if it has no real use) or to make stronger connections with the ones I already have?

Should I be looking for new tools I can use and then think of options I can apply those in? Or should I be looking at situations and thinking what new tools could I apply here?

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's usually best to understand what you have instead of looking for other things, so I'd go with looking at his major stuff right now if I were you.

You can go either way. It's really a preference thing that can change as your experience or mood changes.

 

[PAWN1]

Hey PP, was wondering what you'd say the three levels of intent were for Falco. Intent level 1 is probably dash in aerial, but what would you say are the actions for the other levels? When would you say to set up this mix up after a laser vs just doing the mix up?

 

[Dr Peepee]

It varies. 2 could be waiting a moment then aerialing, or dashing back then aerial'ing, or something like dash SH in then DJ then punish. But anyway to simplify I'm just gonna use dash back. 3 could be like dash in dash back dash in SH DJ punish, or drift back land(laser) then aerial in.

 

[MegaXmas]

Hey PP thanks for the reply, I did not realise I could link matches for reference to help you understand the problems I'm dealing with. Here is a set vs Smashdaddy:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/310282525?t=2h04m42s
I actually played him the day you answered my previous question and tried to implement the things you suggested. Primarily the crouch canceling his nairs and making it less obvious when I'm going to wall him out. I did manage to slow him down significantly but still ended up losing in the end. I felt like I understood much more what was going on playing him that I normally do. One thing that messed with my cc was his use of drill. I think I was a little too obvious with my cc at some points and that gave him the opportunity to react and drill. To counter that I theorized that I could read/react to the drill depending on the spacing and get my shield up and shine it out of shield. Let me know if you have any other ways of dealing with drill or if you notice anything else worth pointing out


With that I also have multiple sets vs Lucky recorded but here is the latest one:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/308982244?t=4h17m42s
I would love to see what you have to say about this set. I feel like I played pretty well but he still ends up winning. I feel particularly lost when analysing vs Lucky because he is just so fast and seems to be on top of everything so getting some insight from you I think would really help. Thanks

 

[Dr Peepee]

I prefer to have people link specific situations as opposed to entire videos so we have more focused work and it's not as difficult for me. I will look at two lost interaction using drill vs SD and a couple lost situations vs Lucky and that should give me enough info.

Looks like vs SD when he spaces the Nair or you get pushed in an opposite direction from him then you miss the CC shine. After that early AC Bair you shouldn't have drifted away and committed to taking the Nair to punish. The next one vs his approaching FH Nair and your approaching laser you just got unlucky. Full approaching laser is quite risky so make sure you have the opponent conditioned to dash back/shield/stay in place before committing to it. I didn't see drill being an issue here, but of course your shield idea and retreating Dair and typical Bair/Utilt ideas can work. You can jump more often if you expect drill since you can land and shine out of it often.

Vs Lucky, it quickly looks like you have two main issues that would help you a lot. Your punish in all areas is weak and if you improve it that will help a ton since you can get hits okay. Your tech could use some work too. I saw a lot of hits happen in the first couple stocks for those reasons and not necessarily for any big outplays on his part.

 

[AnonymousID]

So I just sorta had an epiphany I wanted to share. I've spent a lot of time figuring out specific situations like when your opponent is on a platform or running toward you etc and I've come up with answers like full hop nair, ac bair etc. But I've never looked into what to do after you hit them or if you miss.

I feel like if you hit a random bair or something that causes a knockdown you can probably set up a situation where you can start up a real combo rather than just resetting to neutral. So yea pretty excited to figure this stuff out!

 

[PAWN1]

3 could be like dash in dash back dash in SH DJ punish, or drift back land(laser) then aerial in.

Thanks for this. Would you recommend doing the double jump for intent level 3 at the peak of the short hop so that they get the visual cue of the short hop or just an immediate double jump out of the short hop?

Also, my tech skill has been getting more comfortable recently so I've started to try to practice movement while observing something else. You've mentioned building observation into your movement and I know of a couple things to practice while observing such as laser -> dash back and WD back. Any other basic actions I should practice with the intent of observing my opponent? I know that technically I should always be observing them but I'd like to start with the easier ones first.

Finally, when Marth/Sheik are falling into my full hop bair range sometimes they fair to stop my bair and I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong here. I've thought about doing short hop -> DJ bair or full hop -> shine stall for a moment -> bair as a timing mix up. Am I on the right track here with thinking that this is a 50/50 or am I just doing something wrong?

 

[Frenzy231199]

Hey PP, recently I've been thinking about the situation in the Puff MU where she is on the side plat and you are on the ground, both when winning and losing. How would you approach this situation? A few things I have tried are SH DJ Aerial, FH Aerial and going to the opposite side plat and lasering, however none of these feel very effective. In the case of FH / SH DJ Aerial, it feels very risky as Puff can CC Grab, or Shield Drop and then shark with Up-Air. The side platform Lasers seem decent but only if you have a lead, if you are down, I don't see any reason for it to force Puff to want to move off of the plat? I assume that making her move from this position is the goal as it seems very strong for her, but I am unsure how to achieve this?

This situation happened quite a lot in this set :https://youtu.be/NfMSQvXXRxo?t=1m45s

It would be great to hear your thoughts on this!

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

It's usually best to understand what you have instead of looking for other things, so I'd go with looking at his major stuff right now if I were you.

You can go either way. It's really a preference thing that can change as your experience or mood changes.

What's the difference between practicing movement to have better control of your character and practicing certain movement tools to have a deeper understanding of your character? How is the process different?

Do you think you could have simplified your dash dancing besides your matches at SKTAR 3?

Who's a player you think has an especially good understanding of their tools? Or is that just a natural/necessary part of being a top player?

How do you position yourself against Falco on the edge? What if I don't want to play a vertical timing mixup of when they're gonna double laser? Do I just move to center stage and laser?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Thanks for this. Would you recommend doing the double jump for intent level 3 at the peak of the short hop so that they get the visual cue of the short hop or just an immediate double jump out of the short hop?

Also, my tech skill has been getting more comfortable recently so I've started to try to practice movement while observing something else. You've mentioned building observation into your movement and I know of a couple things to practice while observing such as laser -> dash back and WD back. Any other basic actions I should practice with the intent of observing my opponent? I know that technically I should always be observing them but I'd like to start with the easier ones first.

Finally, when Marth/Sheik are falling into my full hop bair range sometimes they fair to stop my bair and I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong here. I've thought about doing short hop -> DJ bair or full hop -> shine stall for a moment -> bair as a timing mix up. Am I on the right track here with thinking that this is a 50/50 or am I just doing something wrong?

More peak of the SH, maybe a bit lower. It can depend a bit on their conditioning and what they're looking for.

Dash in WD back laser is good for a lot of observation and threatens approach. Dash in dash back laser in place, or half dash in laser in place is similar and you're using laser lag to observe. A dash into a SH can be okay too as you can laser or waveland or empty land or DJ. I think that's all plenty to play with.

You want to fake with SH sometimes so they can whiff and then you can DJ like you said. You can also wait a bit longer to hit them instead of just hitting them right as they come into your range. It is definitely still very favored for you but you have to make them guess a bit sometimes.

Hey PP, recently I've been thinking about the situation in the Puff MU where she is on the side plat and you are on the ground, both when winning and losing. How would you approach this situation? A few things I have tried are SH DJ Aerial, FH Aerial and going to the opposite side plat and lasering, however none of these feel very effective. In the case of FH / SH DJ Aerial, it feels very risky as Puff can CC Grab, or Shield Drop and then shark with Up-Air. The side platform Lasers seem decent but only if you have a lead, if you are down, I don't see any reason for it to force Puff to want to move off of the plat? I assume that making her move from this position is the goal as it seems very strong for her, but I am unsure how to achieve this?

This situation happened quite a lot in this set :https://youtu.be/NfMSQvXXRxo?t=1m45s

It would be great to hear your thoughts on this!

If you're retreating I'm not sure how FH/DJ aerial would get punished by shield drop. If she sharks then you could just threaten shield drop back. Anyway, I'm not sure the position is exactly super good for her, but it does help in this matchup. Still she can't come off the platform for free as you have Bair and Utilt. So establishing those threats such as with DD for Bair can help you use the threat to get near her and harass or hit her.

I only saw the situation actually happen once in the rest of the game at the timestamp and the Bair was spaced too close to Puff which was the main issue. Sometimes you preempted her getting on the platform with a guess that could have instead been a reaction and that got you hit as well. I'd suggest looking around there for a solution.

What's the difference between practicing movement to have better control of your character and practicing certain movement tools to have a deeper understanding of your character? How is the process different?

Do you think you could have simplified your dash dancing besides your matches at SKTAR 3?

Who's a player you think has an especially good understanding of their tools? Or is that just a natural/necessary part of being a top player?

How do you position yourself against Falco on the edge? What if I don't want to play a vertical timing mixup of when they're gonna double laser? Do I just move to center stage and laser?

Movement implies putting lots of tools together or more complexity, while tools would be more basic. Based on how you asked the question anyway.

Yes there were ways I could have simplified it, but I never got recorded what I wanted with Falco really so I hesitate to extrapolate much.

Generally a top player thing, but I'd say Leffen stands out in some ways, as do others like Druggedfox and Cactuar.

No you can stand closer to the edge and hit them between lasers or get on the platform and hit them between lasers. His edgedash doesn't go super far so you can often react and move quickly vs both with practice.

 

[peedy]

In what ways do you think cactuar stands out? I feel like I never understood his playstyle but just know the man's a legend

 

[Dr Peepee]

I won't get too detailed into Cactus since I don't think he would like that.

But he did give me a big part of my framework about tools and intention and movement and how it all fits together from our work together. He is an incredible Melee resource and I am glad to know him.

His contribution in other words is synthesizing typical knowledge like frames and competitive metagame advantages of options with esoteric martial arts and eastern ideas. It is a position I have been more and more into over time and wish to push further as well. It's not surprising though as many interdisciplinary approaches tend to be more comprehensive and useful than singular ones.

 

[peedy]

Ahh yes my apologies I do not wish to disrespect catuars hard work he's put into the game

Do you think you would be willing to go into frames and meta game advantages on what those things mean?

I think I've got an idea I believe as I've been studying frame of reference with levels of mentalizing (levels of meta cognition). But you and I always define things in different ways so I don't want to assume their the same lol

If you would prefer not to talk about those two ideas because they tie too much into cactuars playstyle I definitely respect that

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's just the usual stuff. If one move takes less frames than another it can be preferable, or if you have frame advantage in a situation you want to seek it out and maximize that advantage, etc. Metagame advantage is similar stuff but can include what people commonly do or may do after you begin beating what is common, or typical ways to consider characters like floaties vs FF'ers and how combos change on them, etc.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

More peak of the SH, maybe a bit lower. It can depend a bit on their conditioning and what they're looking for.

Dash in WD back laser is good for a lot of observation and threatens approach. Dash in dash back laser in place, or half dash in laser in place is similar and you're using laser lag to observe. A dash into a SH can be okay too as you can laser or waveland or empty land or DJ. I think that's all plenty to play with.

You want to fake with SH sometimes so they can whiff and then you can DJ like you said. You can also wait a bit longer to hit them instead of just hitting them right as they come into your range. It is definitely still very favored for you but you have to make them guess a bit sometimes.


If you're retreating I'm not sure how FH/DJ aerial would get punished by shield drop. If she sharks then you could just threaten shield drop back. Anyway, I'm not sure the position is exactly super good for her, but it does help in this matchup. Still she can't come off the platform for free as you have Bair and Utilt. So establishing those threats such as with DD for Bair can help you use the threat to get near her and harass or hit her.

I only saw the situation actually happen once in the rest of the game at the timestamp and the Bair was spaced too close to Puff which was the main issue. Sometimes you preempted her getting on the platform with a guess that could have instead been a reaction and that got you hit as well. I'd suggest looking around there for a solution.


Movement implies putting lots of tools together or more complexity, while tools would be more basic. Based on how you asked the question anyway.

Yes there were ways I could have simplified it, but I never got recorded what I wanted with Falco really so I hesitate to extrapolate much.

Generally a top player thing, but I'd say Leffen stands out in some ways, as do others like Druggedfox and Cactuar.

No you can stand closer to the edge and hit them between lasers or get on the platform and hit them between lasers. His edgedash doesn't go super far so you can often react and move quickly vs both with practice.

Can you explain in a little more detail what makes them stand out in that aspect? I'm curious because I want to see what really solid use of basic tools can look like so I know when I'm heading in the right direction.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Leffen is probably the easiest example. It's mainly that he abuses ranges and speeds of moves and just does that instead of trying to do a bunch of extra stuff like many do. So he won't do a bunch of silly dashes but instead will laser a bit then do a zoning dash in fadeback Nair/drill and mix that with lasers into full approaches and he supplements with a bit of DD to give it depth. He sets himself up to beat things with Utilt and Bair, Fox's best tools for outranging and beating options well and does this particularly well vs launched opponents. I don't know how to make this applicable to Falco or what you're looking for I guess and so I'm going to stop typing and say it's a top player thing.

 

[PAWN1]

Hey PP, so I've been playing with mixing up those options you mentioned from of intent theory once inside of threat range. I've noticed improvement with that in friendlies, which is great!
I'm now having trouble with the short hop in -> DJ mix up. While my opponent can't really react to my short hop aerial when I'm inside that threat range, from my recent experience, they definitely can react to the double jump which often leads to me getting anti aired. I know that I should mix up things after the double jump to make it harder for them like wavelands and lasers but right now it feels like they have an advantage when I do a double jump out of the short hop. So I'm sure I'm missing something. Can you explain what makes the short hop -> DJ good?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Glad to hear of your improvement!

SH DJ is good because it beats them trying to punish SH in and can also give you mixups using platforms and FF/lasers etc. It also helps you fade back to observe what they wanted to do. Also also, against spacies who may use FH to escape you it can even be good to get over them to Dair them.

I don't use this much against Marth/Sheik for example since they can hit the DJ pretty well unless I'm landing pretty quickly on a top platform and I don't do the mixup much. So it's matchup dependent too for sure.

If they're not reacting to the SH in or not guessing on it well, then no need to DJ. If you want to change things up, you can pull back with the drift or waveland down/back for something less risky.

 

[peedy]

Hi Dr peepee. I know you've answered this before but was wondering if you could again. How does mang0 attack with so little dash dance. I find in my own gameplay at least right now I almost never get hit. Even when I play decently good players like smokey bluntz and other players around the top 100 area on netplay. The only time I get hit is when I whiff an attack

I was wondering if you'd be willing to go over how mang0 approaches. What makes him so successful? Does he just have great reaction time? I'll send some clips over soon but want to work on the stuff I know I'm doing wrong before I do that was hoping you could share something novel about how mang0 does it so I might broaden my understanding of approaching

 

[Dr Peepee]

He knows he can either go in, fake once, or fake twice and get a lot of depth out of it. He's often confirming out of dash back and doesn't try to overdo speed so he can observe. So he doesn't overcomplicate and has enough depth in simple stuff he does to be very effective.

 

[peedy]

Thanks for the reply. What does that mean he's often confirming out of dash-back?
My second question is I've read you say if Mang0 added one more dash to his game it would add so much more versatility. Do you think you could go in-depth on what you mean by that? If you don't want to comment further on that than I understand

I'll start working on that none the less. appreciate you giving me that framework