Falco Discussion Thread

Meck

Smash Rookie
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Jan 26, 2015
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Hi PP
Over the past couple of months, I started getting a better grasp on my nerves and I am rarely getting them. This makes it easier to focus on my gameplay rather than wondering if I am going to mess up. Recently I started noticing situations where I start getting nervous and I usually do some positive self talk to calm myself down. Mentally, I feel fine. The problem is that I notice myself making more mistakes and being more clumsy despite feeling fine. I am not sure what to do because I feel like the mistakes are not affecting me but it is clearly affecting my gameplay. Any advice would greatly be appreciated :)
 

Dr Peepee

Building Drive....
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Maybe you want to internalize the feeling in your body then. Maybe do some self talk while you do some stretches or push-ups or jog in place. If you can get the good feeling throughout your body or along with your body, you're more likely to internalize good self-talk.
 

Yort

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Aug 27, 2014
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Dr Peepee Dr Peepee
Big post inc, I have lots of questions and ideas post CEO.

1
What are some rules of thumb when fox double jumps to top platform out of his full hop?
For example, if I try to approaching laser him out of his full hop when i'm at a longer range and he double jump wave lands to top platform to avoid the laser on dreamland. Should I read his movement to side platform or just wait and reset? What positions are best here when fox is on top platform, should I move away to avoid falling bair threat while staying close enough to pressure side platforms?

I have learned the sami nair / anti - cc nair as you call it. I find it to be too delayed to beat jumps oos usually and I think it seems really only good to pressure shields safely. Do you think this is true or can I be doing it better, and how should I be covering jumps if not using this nair? Is there a height where I can actually be safe hitting shield? I like reading jumps with nair but I get hit oos for trying to do this frequently.

I don’t think that I threaten nair / dair in after laser much at all, therefore people don’t hold shield / counter attack vs me as much I think. I think that is why people jump or wavedash oos so vs me often, and if I did dair to discourage this it could be better. Does this sound like a reasonable conclusion that I made for myself? As if I'm not attacking or lasering and instead waiting too often I let them move, where as if I was attacking they would be forced to shield.


2
https://youtu.be/6pnG2QBN5ds?t=318
When he was cornered and shielding, did you react here to his jump oos and do fh nair assuming a FH waveland or full hop from him? If so, were you reacting to the jumpsquat?
Should I fh nair pre emptively in this situation ideally should it always be reaction to jumpsquat?
I do not like how this FH nair puts me in a bad spot if it doesn't work out, although it worked in this clip with your bair afterwards, should I just use it sparingly or figure out exactly when to use it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pnG2QBN5ds&feature=youtu.be&t=383
Here, did you dj waveland to top platform because you reacted to him doing dash back during your short hop forward, thus allowing you to know aerial wouldn't reach? Does that mean you have a decision point during the short hop which determines if you attack or dj or not? Would you have done delayed nair instead if he hadn't dashed back so far?

https://youtu.be/6pnG2QBN5ds?t=436
At 7:17, why did you go for an approaching laser on his landing when it seems like you could have punished with dair?

https://youtu.be/6pnG2QBN5ds?t=515
at 8.36, did your long dash forward here influence him to double jump because his landing was being threatened by dair? In your head, is this something you would consider being the case because you know how dash forward would influence him here while he's falling, thus giving you the prediction to back up and laser his double jump landing??

https://youtu.be/g-aRZD7E4D4?t=131
I think this short hop forward I did after this laser was very bad, because it was at such a long range and also he was holding shield so it should have seemed likely he was going to jump.
What do you think I should have done instead, if I assumed he was going to FH over this second laser?
What could I do to pressure the top platform movement here?

https://youtu.be/g-aRZD7E4D4?t=133
Do you think an instead nair forward would beat this jump oos he did here after the approaching laser? I did the jump shine to achieve the same purpose but not sure when I should use one or the other to beat jumps at a close range.

https://youtu.be/g-aRZD7E4D4?t=157
here, could I have seen his dash back after the first laser hit and not went for the shine because of the range difference? What should I do to help cover this roll? lol

https://youtu.be/g-aRZD7E4D4?t=535
What could I have done to beat this full hop after my slight laser at 8.56?
Do you think my dash back turn around laser in place was bad here?
Would doing dash forward > dash back > (see jump) > fh nair be good here?

https://youtu.be/g-aRZD7E4D4?t=567
Here I do the slight laser forward when he's shielding to keep me safe full hop bair then dash back whiff punish the bair.
Do you think this is a reliable way to beat foxes aggressive full hops? I use it a ton. What else could I do to whiff punish here?
What could I do if he did a defensive full hop?

https://youtu.be/g-aRZD7E4D4?t=666
here, do you think a delayed fast fall "anti-cc" nair would still hit his jump?

3
What do you think the laser > dash forward > dash back > laser in place set up is good for besides lasering and discouraging a fox out of his aggressive full hop?
Where are the decision points in this above set up? So during the start up of the laser I know there is one that I have been working on, and then the next one would be generally during the dash back correct?

What is the purpose of the laser > dash back > earlyish nair in setup?
I think the slight dash back lets you confirm the shield and might condition them into believing they are safe thus leading to them jumping / moving out of shield which I hit with nair.

What is the purpose of dash back > nair when close and the opponent is shielding? From my work on dash back when people are shielding I notice it convinces people of their safety and they may try to move / escape. Same thing as above really just asking about the dashing back near someones shield part because these are my thoughts on it.

I've done a lot of work on laser > foxtrot forward > dair, I notice it is mainly useful at a longer range and also is useful in that people often end up close to me and confused at the fact that I am now so close to them, thus my dair stuffs whatever they try to do often. It seems good for confusing people honestly and gets me lots of hits. I find it problematic in a way though because I do this when I land a laser at a longer range, and often here I want to close space with approaching laser / slight approaching laser instead because it keeps frame advantage, while doing the dash forward sacrifices the frame advantage. I am asking about why I would use the foxtrot forward instead of the approaching laser at this range after I land an initial laser?
A few reasons I have come up with is that if they jump over the initial laser, I can react during the dash forward and play accordingly instead of approaching laser into a hit from the air.
Another reason is that it throws people off and confuses them lol.
Thoughts on this? I like this set up a lot but i'm not sure where to fit it in.

What is the purpose of laser > dash forward > dash back > dair in?
I find it useful to punish people jumping out of the air and then attacking, the dair often punishes their landing (in particular fox).
I also find it useful when people do dash back out of laser and then dash forward into my aerial, assuming the range is okay.

What's a good way to know if someones going to hold shield after I laser them?

When do you plan on using Z PS to send back powershields? I did some testing and I don't really think it's possible to react to the fact that they got a powershield with it. Do you plan on using it pre emptively when you assume they are going to land a powershield and then act out of the shield you bring up with something like a laser or a wavedash?
 
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I've been really trying recently to understand falco more and have some questions and just wanted to dump them out in no special order.

How good is aerial shine -> Waveland down on shield when approaching in general? the situation I'm referring to is when you laser someone's shield and they assume you're going to Laser -> high Dair. I'm assuming it's pretty bad at higher level, but it seems pretty decent for players around and above my skill level.

When it comes to finishing combos, I always feel that I end them too early with a bair/strong nair, or i drag them out and the opponent is at 140% but I didn't look for a kill setup so they just sorta live. Is there any good way to be more cognizant of kill options mid combo other than experience?

No matter how much I get used to utilizing more options off the ledge, I really feel it's impossible to reset neutral or even just get my footing. I always feel locked in or just stuck 90% of the time I come off the ledge. I don't know if it's the people I play against, or it's just mental. Not sure if any of you have heard of this problem, but I really feel like it's stumping my growth.

Whenever I get a Fox or Marth in the corner and have almost total stage control, I have a hard time pushing my lead. I feel like I need to keep lasering/ AC bair to keep em locked in, but I see that after a few hits or a couple seconds, they seemingly magically get out of the corner and have center stage again. I don't know if I'm approaching how to hold a lead wrong, or I'm just being dumb and letting them out. I'm assuming it's not the latter since I'm trying really hard to focus on those small corner interactions.

When Fox's approach with fh nair, I feel like I get hit when I shouldn't 99% of the time. The only options I can do consistently are CC -> shine, or intercept with dair. I don't like cc since I have damage that feels unnecessary. I think it's a matter of not knowing my options to counter it, but it's really frustrating trying everything I can think of and it just loses or works really awkwardly.

How solid of an option is downward angled ftilt for edgeguarding? I've been messing with it in every MU, and it's worked pretty well for me.

When dash dancing/wavedashing around I've caught myself going sort of braindead in my movement and get fixated on what my opponent is doing. Is this normal/decent at times? I assume it's not a good habit to get into.

What's a good way to get more confident in my approach game? I know this is super general, but I've gotten extremely good at laser/AC bair camping and using platforms, but I can tell that I'm missing a massive part of the game. I guess I'm not so much looking for specific approach options per say, but just how to get more comfortable taking risks or using my tools more effectively.

These are basically all the questions I've built up in the past 2ish weeks. I'm sure I'll have a ton more, but this is it for now.
 

Dr Peepee

Building Drive....
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Dr Peepee Dr Peepee
Big post inc, I have lots of questions and ideas post CEO.

1
What are some rules of thumb when fox double jumps to top platform out of his full hop?
For example, if I try to approaching laser him out of his full hop when i'm at a longer range and he double jump wave lands to top platform to avoid the laser on dreamland. Should I read his movement to side platform or just wait and reset? What positions are best here when fox is on top platform, should I move away to avoid falling bair threat while staying close enough to pressure side platforms?

I have learned the sami nair / anti - cc nair as you call it. I find it to be too delayed to beat jumps oos usually and I think it seems really only good to pressure shields safely. Do you think this is true or can I be doing it better, and how should I be covering jumps if not using this nair? Is there a height where I can actually be safe hitting shield? I like reading jumps with nair but I get hit oos for trying to do this frequently.

I don’t think that I threaten nair / dair in after laser much at all, therefore people don’t hold shield / counter attack vs me as much I think. I think that is why people jump or wavedash oos so vs me often, and if I did dair to discourage this it could be better. Does this sound like a reasonable conclusion that I made for myself? As if I'm not attacking or lasering and instead waiting too often I let them move, where as if I was attacking they would be forced to shield.


2
https://youtu.be/6pnG2QBN5ds?t=318
When he was cornered and shielding, did you react here to his jump oos and do fh nair assuming a FH waveland or full hop from him? If so, were you reacting to the jumpsquat?
Should I fh nair pre emptively in this situation ideally should it always be reaction to jumpsquat?
I do not like how this FH nair puts me in a bad spot if it doesn't work out, although it worked in this clip with your bair afterwards, should I just use it sparingly or figure out exactly when to use it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pnG2QBN5ds&feature=youtu.be&t=383
Here, did you dj waveland to top platform because you reacted to him doing dash back during your short hop forward, thus allowing you to know aerial wouldn't reach? Does that mean you have a decision point during the short hop which determines if you attack or dj or not? Would you have done delayed nair instead if he hadn't dashed back so far?

https://youtu.be/6pnG2QBN5ds?t=436
At 7:17, why did you go for an approaching laser on his landing when it seems like you could have punished with dair?

https://youtu.be/6pnG2QBN5ds?t=515
at 8.36, did your long dash forward here influence him to double jump because his landing was being threatened by dair? In your head, is this something you would consider being the case because you know how dash forward would influence him here while he's falling, thus giving you the prediction to back up and laser his double jump landing??

https://youtu.be/g-aRZD7E4D4?t=131
I think this short hop forward I did after this laser was very bad, because it was at such a long range and also he was holding shield so it should have seemed likely he was going to jump.
What do you think I should have done instead, if I assumed he was going to FH over this second laser?
What could I do to pressure the top platform movement here?

https://youtu.be/g-aRZD7E4D4?t=133
Do you think an instead nair forward would beat this jump oos he did here after the approaching laser? I did the jump shine to achieve the same purpose but not sure when I should use one or the other to beat jumps at a close range.

https://youtu.be/g-aRZD7E4D4?t=157
here, could I have seen his dash back after the first laser hit and not went for the shine because of the range difference? What should I do to help cover this roll? lol

https://youtu.be/g-aRZD7E4D4?t=535
What could I have done to beat this full hop after my slight laser at 8.56?
Do you think my dash back turn around laser in place was bad here?
Would doing dash forward > dash back > (see jump) > fh nair be good here?

https://youtu.be/g-aRZD7E4D4?t=567
Here I do the slight laser forward when he's shielding to keep me safe full hop bair then dash back whiff punish the bair.
Do you think this is a reliable way to beat foxes aggressive full hops? I use it a ton. What else could I do to whiff punish here?
What could I do if he did a defensive full hop?

https://youtu.be/g-aRZD7E4D4?t=666
here, do you think a delayed fast fall "anti-cc" nair would still hit his jump?

3
What do you think the laser > dash forward > dash back > laser in place set up is good for besides lasering and discouraging a fox out of his aggressive full hop?
Where are the decision points in this above set up? So during the start up of the laser I know there is one that I have been working on, and then the next one would be generally during the dash back correct?

What is the purpose of the laser > dash back > earlyish nair in setup?
I think the slight dash back lets you confirm the shield and might condition them into believing they are safe thus leading to them jumping / moving out of shield which I hit with nair.

What is the purpose of dash back > nair when close and the opponent is shielding? From my work on dash back when people are shielding I notice it convinces people of their safety and they may try to move / escape. Same thing as above really just asking about the dashing back near someones shield part because these are my thoughts on it.

I've done a lot of work on laser > foxtrot forward > dair, I notice it is mainly useful at a longer range and also is useful in that people often end up close to me and confused at the fact that I am now so close to them, thus my dair stuffs whatever they try to do often. It seems good for confusing people honestly and gets me lots of hits. I find it problematic in a way though because I do this when I land a laser at a longer range, and often here I want to close space with approaching laser / slight approaching laser instead because it keeps frame advantage, while doing the dash forward sacrifices the frame advantage. I am asking about why I would use the foxtrot forward instead of the approaching laser at this range after I land an initial laser?
A few reasons I have come up with is that if they jump over the initial laser, I can react during the dash forward and play accordingly instead of approaching laser into a hit from the air.
Another reason is that it throws people off and confuses them lol.
Thoughts on this? I like this set up a lot but i'm not sure where to fit it in.

What is the purpose of laser > dash forward > dash back > dair in?
I find it useful to punish people jumping out of the air and then attacking, the dair often punishes their landing (in particular fox).
I also find it useful when people do dash back out of laser and then dash forward into my aerial, assuming the range is okay.

What's a good way to know if someones going to hold shield after I laser them?

When do you plan on using Z PS to send back powershields? I did some testing and I don't really think it's possible to react to the fact that they got a powershield with it. Do you plan on using it pre emptively when you assume they are going to land a powershield and then act out of the shield you bring up with something like a laser or a wavedash?
1. Can depend on level. If you can't hit him out of the air/lag then shifting to Bair walling vs lasering vs coming onto the platform with spaced/delayed aerials vs laser mixup vs waiting on the ground and faking is usually the move. Helps to know how long they want to wait as well, so if they want to come down quickly you only need to wait or fake a little, but if they want to wait for you to come up then you also have certain quick DJ mixups you can do, etc. I tend to like being right under Fox or playing around the edges to see if I can bait runoffs I suppose.

You may need to hit them earlier in their jump as they come OOS. If you wait for peak SH then yeah you're more likely to miss. So that would depend more on how you set up the Nair and the position when you jump. You could also just force their jump instead and then do a high Nair on them. If you're not sure what is making them jump, I'd start there and also making sure your other non jump catching tactics are strong so they are forcing jumps. For example you want to have good pressure/grab punishes so people don't think they can hold shield for free, and they worry when they see you set up to approach. In the meantime you could just crossup more I guess.

Yeah that sounds fair. You may also want to consider that you might not be going on first intention much/ever, so you're not showing them you'll actually commit and therefore not tying threats to lasers as you said. Similar conclusion but perhaps explained a bit differently.


2. I think I messed up tech there LOL I was reacting to SH I think. Hax doesn't DJ and most Foxes don't DJ there so I was pretty sure I could get his landing.
He dashed back during my laser. My SH wouldn't reach, but I wanted to take stage while seeing what he would do if I just went in, and top platform is a pretty good position. If he did try to attack I'd have been able to take note.

Looks like I was nervous or expecting some other action or just not really focused because you're right I could have just Dair'd that.

That's right about the long dash and DJ.

From that farther back position, the best you could've done would've been to dash FH immediately after lasering and maybe hit a Dair/Nair. It probably would've just been a time to pressure though and you could've mixed a laser or empty land there as well. You could've also just come forward and seen if he'd try to stop you from taking space.

LOL that is crazy that missed. I think walk shine would've done the job though. Instant Nair may have hit but I don't think it would have converted into anything at such a close spacing at 0%. If he was at maybe 20% I would say the Nair would be a stronger option.

Okay so here it should be obvious you don't want to instantly shine since he did dash back. You just need to confirm as you're shooting the second laser you have plentyyy of time. Walk shine is again a consideration, and it would make Fsmashing this roll a real possibility. If you instantly did SH forward(not dash) you could probably Bair the roll or at least laser/waveland out of it for pressure. Alternatively, you have lots of advantage when landing with a laser right there so taking a small amount of time to confirm they won't instantly act and give you a free punish can be okay, and they wouldn't really hit you OOS right there anyway. Setting up spaced aerial on shield can also help cover rolls in for obvious reasons.

No reason to move so far back there as you had full advantage. Only reason you'd dash back there is to set up a dash in large take stage/approach setup OR you just prefer playing defense overall. Your solution works fine, no reason to commit to laser so quickly out of dash back at the very least.

Yeah that's a fine play. You can also laser over it and shine or grab or whatever. You can also Ftilt and I think Fsmash the landing. I've walked under and Utilted/forced a DJ with Utilt threat before. I've also SH'd over the Bair and Bair'd myself.
Defensive FH is hard to really punish without a read. Lasering in to gain advantage is good, walk Ftilt can be alright. If you want to run under and take the weak hit and shine that's not really likely and can obviously just lose to Dair but it's kinda jank and can work lol. You can go over the FH with DJ and sometimes punish with Dair or Nair or Bair if you act slightly ahead of Fox, and if you FH over then you won't get a punish but you can at least pressure/take stage.

That Nair barely hit so I don't think delaying it would have worked.

3.
It's great at threatening people who are in shield and observing what they do, as well as cornered characters. It is great at observing in neutral generally, and at various timings it can interrupt a lot of opposing neutral plays.
There are many decision points there, but I'd add in there's one in the beginning/middle of the dash in, maybe early and late in the dash back, of course during the second laser.

Against shields, laser puts pressure on because you could beat them OOS. Then you give up space, which relieves this pressure and encourages them to act. Then by the time they confirm this you can go and hit them as they come OOS. If you are mixing laser in place here then of course they may not want to back up to relieve pressure either since they think they have plenty of time to act and don't need to worry about aerials so much. Also keep in mind that anyone who acts directly out of shield after laser will at minimum be further pressured by this setup, if not hit.

Yeah that's similar. I'll just add that switching from having someone deal with regular shield pressure timings to movement timings/spacings is pretty taxing mentally.

It's probably working well for you because people expect so many lasers and staying around the same space and not approaching too much or too quickly, so when you do it it rightly throws them off. It's also weird in general for Falco to laser that infrequently between actions so you're playing on their meta knowledge. But yes as you've noted, sometimes laser is stronger when it's not being used. Perhaps you'd benefit from putting away the gun a little more in general, or playing matches without it entirely to see where it's truly useful and where it's keeping you from openings. Why shoot if it doesn't give you anything?

It's a fake on attacking directly and then hits their counter. It's great at making people scared of trying to counter approaches.

Depends on character/player/percent/positioning/conditioning to an extent. That said if you land with advantage such as being fairly close to them it's likely. If they're a less mobile character it's more likely. If they play more defensively it's more likely. If they have been hit recently it's more likely. If they're cornered and thus have less options it's more likely. If they're out of CC percent it's more likely. Etc.

There are probably some mid range ones I can react to, especially if I'm dashing back after laser. But yeah I might do things like dash back shield and if they don't PS I can just turnaround laser OOS and still maintain some advantage, or if Fox FHs over I can probably be more likely to Bair or at least WD OOS to avoid any problems. I'm also going to be shooting lower lasers, so I can just mix up jumping over and attacking people sometimes, or even moving farther away with something like WD/dash+WD and taking laser and jabbing/Ftilt'ing them. I don't have the full answers yet but I think these are good places I'll start at.

I've been really trying recently to understand falco more and have some questions and just wanted to dump them out in no special order.

How good is aerial shine -> Waveland down on shield when approaching in general? the situation I'm referring to is when you laser someone's shield and they assume you're going to Laser -> high Dair. I'm assuming it's pretty bad at higher level, but it seems pretty decent for players around and above my skill level.

When it comes to finishing combos, I always feel that I end them too early with a bair/strong nair, or i drag them out and the opponent is at 140% but I didn't look for a kill setup so they just sorta live. Is there any good way to be more cognizant of kill options mid combo other than experience?

No matter how much I get used to utilizing more options off the ledge, I really feel it's impossible to reset neutral or even just get my footing. I always feel locked in or just stuck 90% of the time I come off the ledge. I don't know if it's the people I play against, or it's just mental. Not sure if any of you have heard of this problem, but I really feel like it's stumping my growth.

Whenever I get a Fox or Marth in the corner and have almost total stage control, I have a hard time pushing my lead. I feel like I need to keep lasering/ AC bair to keep em locked in, but I see that after a few hits or a couple seconds, they seemingly magically get out of the corner and have center stage again. I don't know if I'm approaching how to hold a lead wrong, or I'm just being dumb and letting them out. I'm assuming it's not the latter since I'm trying really hard to focus on those small corner interactions.

When Fox's approach with fh nair, I feel like I get hit when I shouldn't 99% of the time. The only options I can do consistently are CC -> shine, or intercept with dair. I don't like cc since I have damage that feels unnecessary. I think it's a matter of not knowing my options to counter it, but it's really frustrating trying everything I can think of and it just loses or works really awkwardly.

How solid of an option is downward angled ftilt for edgeguarding? I've been messing with it in every MU, and it's worked pretty well for me.

When dash dancing/wavedashing around I've caught myself going sort of braindead in my movement and get fixated on what my opponent is doing. Is this normal/decent at times? I assume it's not a good habit to get into.

What's a good way to get more confident in my approach game? I know this is super general, but I've gotten extremely good at laser/AC bair camping and using platforms, but I can tell that I'm missing a massive part of the game. I guess I'm not so much looking for specific approach options per say, but just how to get more comfortable taking risks or using my tools more effectively.

These are basically all the questions I've built up in the past 2ish weeks. I'm sure I'll have a ton more, but this is it for now.
I don't understand your first question. You're hitting a mid or low height aerial then shining then Sh'ing out of shine then wavelanding down? I feel like that's not what you mean but I don't understand it then.

Try to make combos happen that either give you a Dair or Dsmash combo ender by the edge. Failing that, try to make them DI a Bair/Fsmash out or hold in for more damage. Often times you can mix them up on pushing them offstage or hitting them so that you can shine to up-B them. Only other thing is to by okay with ending it early but letting them be kinda high up because then you can just Bair their DJ and get a great edgeguard. Speaking of edgeguards, be sure to learn those super well so you're okay with hitting someone offstage. If you are, then they'll DI even better for your combos since they won't want to go offstage.

Yeah it's pretty bad for me too sometimes I need to get better at the edge as Falco since he's not great there. Platform wavelands or just landing on them, wavelands onto the lip of the stage, edgedash turnaround Utilt, those are all pretty good for getting around some of Falco's bigger problems. I've also recently seen a cool option where you edgedash but dash back toward edge out of it and I think that looks good to experiment with.

Bair(AC or dash delayed), Utilt(requires you to stand still, so don't always dash if worried about it), or dash back Dair over it are among the better choices. You can also dash/run/WD under it if he's going to overshoot you, or move back and laser his landing. It's a good option so be sure you play around with some of these counters.

We used to call it DAFT on here as a meme lol but yeah it's a decent edgeguarding option. Great for catching jumps and pushing people away just enough for easy edgeguards. Doesn't hit sweetspots usually and that's lame, plus it's a bit too weak at low percents in some matchups. Not bad though.

It's definitely not a good habit, but it is normal. Practicing basic actions and approaches/defenses helps you because that new muscle memory will be the default in matches. Training your muscle memory is very important, so you want to lose those spacing out moments in training as much as possible. That won't help you come tourney time.

One method is to play against Falco(as another character) and see how he approaches you and see when you feel he has control. Maybe you can get yourself into more aggressive states of mind when you play, or watch aggressive players right before you play/regularly to build up that image of Falco in your mind. Maybe it's worth mentioning that Falco isn't exactly great at approaching, he's great at control. He's also great at pressure. So you just need to link the two.

Hope it helps man.
 

Yort

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 27, 2014
Messages
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1. Can depend on level. If you can't hit him out of the air/lag then shifting to Bair walling vs lasering vs coming onto the platform with spaced/delayed aerials vs laser mixup vs waiting on the ground and faking is usually the move. Helps to know how long they want to wait as well, so if they want to come down quickly you only need to wait or fake a little, but if they want to wait for you to come up then you also have certain quick DJ mixups you can do, etc. I tend to like being right under Fox or playing around the edges to see if I can bait runoffs I suppose.

You may need to hit them earlier in their jump as they come OOS. If you wait for peak SH then yeah you're more likely to miss. So that would depend more on how you set up the Nair and the position when you jump. You could also just force their jump instead and then do a high Nair on them. If you're not sure what is making them jump, I'd start there and also making sure your other non jump catching tactics are strong so they are forcing jumps. For example you want to have good pressure/grab punishes so people don't think they can hold shield for free, and they worry when they see you set up to approach. In the meantime you could just crossup more I guess.

Yeah that sounds fair. You may also want to consider that you might not be going on first intention much/ever, so you're not showing them you'll actually commit and therefore not tying threats to lasers as you said. Similar conclusion but perhaps explained a bit differently.


2. I think I messed up tech there LOL I was reacting to SH I think. Hax doesn't DJ and most Foxes don't DJ there so I was pretty sure I could get his landing.
He dashed back during my laser. My SH wouldn't reach, but I wanted to take stage while seeing what he would do if I just went in, and top platform is a pretty good position. If he did try to attack I'd have been able to take note.

Looks like I was nervous or expecting some other action or just not really focused because you're right I could have just Dair'd that.

That's right about the long dash and DJ.

From that farther back position, the best you could've done would've been to dash FH immediately after lasering and maybe hit a Dair/Nair. It probably would've just been a time to pressure though and you could've mixed a laser or empty land there as well. You could've also just come forward and seen if he'd try to stop you from taking space.

LOL that is crazy that missed. I think walk shine would've done the job though. Instant Nair may have hit but I don't think it would have converted into anything at such a close spacing at 0%. If he was at maybe 20% I would say the Nair would be a stronger option.

Okay so here it should be obvious you don't want to instantly shine since he did dash back. You just need to confirm as you're shooting the second laser you have plentyyy of time. Walk shine is again a consideration, and it would make Fsmashing this roll a real possibility. If you instantly did SH forward(not dash) you could probably Bair the roll or at least laser/waveland out of it for pressure. Alternatively, you have lots of advantage when landing with a laser right there so taking a small amount of time to confirm they won't instantly act and give you a free punish can be okay, and they wouldn't really hit you OOS right there anyway. Setting up spaced aerial on shield can also help cover rolls in for obvious reasons.

No reason to move so far back there as you had full advantage. Only reason you'd dash back there is to set up a dash in large take stage/approach setup OR you just prefer playing defense overall. Your solution works fine, no reason to commit to laser so quickly out of dash back at the very least.

Yeah that's a fine play. You can also laser over it and shine or grab or whatever. You can also Ftilt and I think Fsmash the landing. I've walked under and Utilted/forced a DJ with Utilt threat before. I've also SH'd over the Bair and Bair'd myself.
Defensive FH is hard to really punish without a read. Lasering in to gain advantage is good, walk Ftilt can be alright. If you want to run under and take the weak hit and shine that's not really likely and can obviously just lose to Dair but it's kinda jank and can work lol. You can go over the FH with DJ and sometimes punish with Dair or Nair or Bair if you act slightly ahead of Fox, and if you FH over then you won't get a punish but you can at least pressure/take stage.

That Nair barely hit so I don't think delaying it would have worked.

3.
It's great at threatening people who are in shield and observing what they do, as well as cornered characters. It is great at observing in neutral generally, and at various timings it can interrupt a lot of opposing neutral plays.
There are many decision points there, but I'd add in there's one in the beginning/middle of the dash in, maybe early and late in the dash back, of course during the second laser.

Against shields, laser puts pressure on because you could beat them OOS. Then you give up space, which relieves this pressure and encourages them to act. Then by the time they confirm this you can go and hit them as they come OOS. If you are mixing laser in place here then of course they may not want to back up to relieve pressure either since they think they have plenty of time to act and don't need to worry about aerials so much. Also keep in mind that anyone who acts directly out of shield after laser will at minimum be further pressured by this setup, if not hit.

Yeah that's similar. I'll just add that switching from having someone deal with regular shield pressure timings to movement timings/spacings is pretty taxing mentally.

It's probably working well for you because people expect so many lasers and staying around the same space and not approaching too much or too quickly, so when you do it it rightly throws them off. It's also weird in general for Falco to laser that infrequently between actions so you're playing on their meta knowledge. But yes as you've noted, sometimes laser is stronger when it's not being used. Perhaps you'd benefit from putting away the gun a little more in general, or playing matches without it entirely to see where it's truly useful and where it's keeping you from openings. Why shoot if it doesn't give you anything?

It's a fake on attacking directly and then hits their counter. It's great at making people scared of trying to counter approaches.

Depends on character/player/percent/positioning/conditioning to an extent. That said if you land with advantage such as being fairly close to them it's likely. If they're a less mobile character it's more likely. If they play more defensively it's more likely. If they have been hit recently it's more likely. If they're cornered and thus have less options it's more likely. If they're out of CC percent it's more likely. Etc.

There are probably some mid range ones I can react to, especially if I'm dashing back after laser. But yeah I might do things like dash back shield and if they don't PS I can just turnaround laser OOS and still maintain some advantage, or if Fox FHs over I can probably be more likely to Bair or at least WD OOS to avoid any problems. I'm also going to be shooting lower lasers, so I can just mix up jumping over and attacking people sometimes, or even moving farther away with something like WD/dash+WD and taking laser and jabbing/Ftilt'ing them. I don't have the full answers yet but I think these are good places I'll start at.


I don't understand your first question. You're hitting a mid or low height aerial then shining then Sh'ing out of shine then wavelanding down? I feel like that's not what you mean but I don't understand it then.

Try to make combos happen that either give you a Dair or Dsmash combo ender by the edge. Failing that, try to make them DI a Bair/Fsmash out or hold in for more damage. Often times you can mix them up on pushing them offstage or hitting them so that you can shine to up-B them. Only other thing is to by okay with ending it early but letting them be kinda high up because then you can just Bair their DJ and get a great edgeguard. Speaking of edgeguards, be sure to learn those super well so you're okay with hitting someone offstage. If you are, then they'll DI even better for your combos since they won't want to go offstage.

Yeah it's pretty bad for me too sometimes I need to get better at the edge as Falco since he's not great there. Platform wavelands or just landing on them, wavelands onto the lip of the stage, edgedash turnaround Utilt, those are all pretty good for getting around some of Falco's bigger problems. I've also recently seen a cool option where you edgedash but dash back toward edge out of it and I think that looks good to experiment with.

Bair(AC or dash delayed), Utilt(requires you to stand still, so don't always dash if worried about it), or dash back Dair over it are among the better choices. You can also dash/run/WD under it if he's going to overshoot you, or move back and laser his landing. It's a good option so be sure you play around with some of these counters.

We used to call it DAFT on here as a meme lol but yeah it's a decent edgeguarding option. Great for catching jumps and pushing people away just enough for easy edgeguards. Doesn't hit sweetspots usually and that's lame, plus it's a bit too weak at low percents in some matchups. Not bad though.

It's definitely not a good habit, but it is normal. Practicing basic actions and approaches/defenses helps you because that new muscle memory will be the default in matches. Training your muscle memory is very important, so you want to lose those spacing out moments in training as much as possible. That won't help you come tourney time.

One method is to play against Falco(as another character) and see how he approaches you and see when you feel he has control. Maybe you can get yourself into more aggressive states of mind when you play, or watch aggressive players right before you play/regularly to build up that image of Falco in your mind. Maybe it's worth mentioning that Falco isn't exactly great at approaching, he's great at control. He's also great at pressure. So you just need to link the two.

Hope it helps man.
I do not prefer defensive play over all, I definitely prefer aggressive plays.
I often play scared in tournament especially when i'm doing well or anxious, I know this and this bothers me. Do you have any advice?

"LOL that is crazy that missed. I think walk shine would've done the job though. Instant Nair may have hit but I don't think it would have converted into anything at such a close spacing at 0%. If he was at maybe 20% I would say the Nair would be a stronger option."
Wait why would walk shine hit when dash jump shine did not? Wouldn't the latter be faster?

"It's probably working well for you because people expect so many lasers and staying around the same space and not approaching too much or too quickly, so when you do it it rightly throws them off. It's also weird in general for Falco to laser that infrequently between actions so you're playing on their meta knowledge. But yes as you've noted, sometimes laser is stronger when it's not being used. Perhaps you'd benefit from putting away the gun a little more in general, or playing matches without it entirely to see where it's truly useful and where it's keeping you from openings. Why shoot if it doesn't give you anything "

Are you implying that I'm lasering too much / in bad spots from what you've seen or from what I said about my laser aerial threat problem?
This is kind of funny to me because I used to laser not nearly enough and I might have overcompensated.

Can you explain exactly how it works when you say you make people expect laser then aerial them during the times they expect laser?
Is this because when people begin to expect laser they move forward and try to take space during it's start up? (such as with dash forward PS)

"I think I messed up tech there LOL I was reacting to SH I think. Hax doesn't DJ and most Foxes don't DJ there so I was pretty sure I could get his landing."
Are you saying you were reacting to his sh oos and trying to whiff punish whatever aerial he did so you meant to sh nair instead of fh nair?
 

Dr Peepee

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One thing you can do is relabel the anxiety as excitement. That's been studied to work as it's the same system activating in your body. Taking deep breaths, focusing on your goals and the challenge of your opponent that will bring your best out instead of worrying they may overwhelm you(aka focusing on positives) is another solution. It may also help to get your body more actively involved to produce endorphins. There are also deeper psychological blockages you could consider attacking, but that can take longer so maybe try the other routes first.

Walk is sometimes faster depending on spacing since you don't have jumpsquat iirc. Never really tested it it just felt like it. You could always just do a slightly closer dash jump next time and maybe that'd fix it.

Yeah I think you do some of what I used to do where you give up advantages to maintain control but it can lead to frustration when you're actually trying to go in. Lasering too much and often moving back a bit too far are the main culprits here.

If you dash back and laser in place, people expect another laser after dash back. So if you dash back then go in you're playing on that cue. Alternatively, if you're often lasering twice before doing anything for example then after doing just one laser you're more likely to hit them since they don't expect a quicker attack. Just that type of stuff. Sometimes they will move in but it isn't guaranteed, like if they expect you to laser a lot and they might move high expecting another laser when it's not coming and you could just go hit that for example.

Yeah or just hitting his landing lag/shield upon landing. I was late reacting because last stock/perhaps questionable play overall by me from the looks of it as well.
 

Yort

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One thing you can do is relabel the anxiety as excitement. That's been studied to work as it's the same system activating in your body. Taking deep breaths, focusing on your goals and the challenge of your opponent that will bring your best out instead of worrying they may overwhelm you(aka focusing on positives) is another solution. It may also help to get your body more actively involved to produce endorphins. There are also deeper psychological blockages you could consider attacking, but that can take longer so maybe try the other routes first.

Walk is sometimes faster depending on spacing since you don't have jumpsquat iirc. Never really tested it it just felt like it. You could always just do a slightly closer dash jump next time and maybe that'd fix it.

Yeah I think you do some of what I used to do where you give up advantages to maintain control but it can lead to frustration when you're actually trying to go in. Lasering too much and often moving back a bit too far are the main culprits here.

If you dash back and laser in place, people expect another laser after dash back. So if you dash back then go in you're playing on that cue. Alternatively, if you're often lasering twice before doing anything for example then after doing just one laser you're more likely to hit them since they don't expect a quicker attack. Just that type of stuff. Sometimes they will move in but it isn't guaranteed, like if they expect you to laser a lot and they might move high expecting another laser when it's not coming and you could just go hit that for example.

Yeah or just hitting his landing lag/shield upon landing. I was late reacting because last stock/perhaps questionable play overall by me from the looks of it as well.

I completely agree that I have that problem. A while ago when I was asking you about openings I did some analysis with the goal in mind to record how many good openings I missed, I did some work on it but it's still an issue obviously. When you think about pushing advantage / not giving up openings do you mean not only to directly attack more with advantage but also just take space and/or influence the opponent?
Something like a dash back laser in place when I could get a slight approaching laser safely would be an example of giving up advantage?
What are some tools to push advantage better and some ways to work on this problem?

If I were to want to hit someone for moving high would I do something like laser > dash fh nair to hit their jump?

Is doing dash fh aerials good in the falco ditto vs falcos who fully hop away frequently after taking a single laser?
 

Dr Peepee

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Yeah I most directly mean going in and attacking, but I also mean pushing forward too. Yeah dashing back and lasering after you've already stopped them doesn't do you so much for pressure/aggression unless you're really close, which in most cases you aren't. Adding more dash forward lasers in place, or just SH aerial'ing in more are good places to start. You can also do some SH in DJ vs spacies, and if you get to the top platform you can fight most characters from there decently.

Yeah that's a way to hit them going high. You can also FH Dair or shine depending on spacing and other factors. Fair can sometimes work too. Bair can be great as well if you can position for it.

FH'ing after the first Falco does will usually lose to Dair if you're facing him. Bair is great vs FH Falco though, but also FH DJ'ing over him to Dair him can work. Sometimes you just FH/DJ laser and then try to take advantage of the new landing space, which can work well with good setup/foresight.
 

M47riX

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Hey PP,
I'm currently thinking about the correct way to shield-pressure Peach and how to play the mu cause i'm getting punished way to easely when i try to get in.

At the moment i'm thinking that i have to go for late aerials into shinegrab/doubleshine etc. most of the time because otherwise i'm either getting grabbed or bair'd/nair'd oos... high hitting aerials seem to be only safe if i land way behind her or use aerial drift to get away e.g. after late aerial - shine - high hit nair/dair. The problem i have with that is that in game there are situations where Peach is dash dancing or at least moving on the ground and depending on where she is the sh aerial can hit her to early meaning to high (this happens mostly with nair) making it a risk.

Obv. the correct answer to stop her movement is lasering which probably leads to her float which i can beat with mid-height lasers, bair/utilt wall or FH/Dj Dair.
Would that be a reasonable way to play the mu, forcing her to float and dont give her any chance to act oos?

Do you either prefer nair or dair in this mu? I feel like dair is usually a bit better because it has better hitstun and nair is kinda playing into cc dsmash at times.
One last thought: if these high aerials are rly as risky as they seem especially in this mu because of her fast oos options that would mean that early aerials after FH, Shield drop or any other way from above are generally almost never used because Peach can easely react to them while grounded even if they hit her while dashing cause she would most likely buffer cc.
What do you think?
 

Dr Peepee

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You can't beat float with mid height lasers unless you call her jump with them, and then you aren't especially favored there anyway I think. Getting close with lasers and threatening grab is good because it forces her shield which you can then pressure. If she lands from a float you can also SH in sometimes and get her to shield. Also if you just jump in more and worry about where you'll hit, you can waveland back or DJ away and observe whether she tried to DA or shield or WD away or whatever and that can inform your future plays.

I like Dair more if I'm certain she will get hit and be on the ground, and Nair otherwise. Both can be applicable though.
You can still high aerial vs her but you either want to land behind her or spaced, and coming from higher up can allow more drift. Also you can shield poke her more often if she isn't angling the shield upward so it's still possible that they can be useful, but I'm not sure how reliable that could be.
 

Yort

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You can't beat float with mid height lasers unless you call her jump with them, and then you aren't especially favored there anyway I think. Getting close with lasers and threatening grab is good because it forces her shield which you can then pressure. If she lands from a float you can also SH in sometimes and get her to shield. Also if you just jump in more and worry about where you'll hit, you can waveland back or DJ away and observe whether she tried to DA or shield or WD away or whatever and that can inform your future plays.

I like Dair more if I'm certain she will get hit and be on the ground, and Nair otherwise. Both can be applicable though.
You can still high aerial vs her but you either want to land behind her or spaced, and coming from higher up can allow more drift. Also you can shield poke her more often if she isn't angling the shield upward so it's still possible that they can be useful, but I'm not sure how reliable that could be.
How does threatening grab force her to shield because if she shields she gets grabbed, wouldn't it be threatening aerial that forces her to shield and then you grab / pressure her for shielding?

Is the end goal to build comprehensive and well understood decision points into all basic tools that have them? Or to just stick with a few and try to master them?
Does every laser have 1 decision point before it is shoots, and every dash has multiple? One during the beginning and the other during the middle / end?

In doing the laser > long dash forward > laser in place setup
Could I replace the laser in place at the end of the long dash forward into dash back bair for example if I see that shiek is in the air and drifting forward with fair? Is that how that decision point would work in the dash?

Could you tell me more about the laser > long dash forward > laser in place set up I just mentioned above? What is its purpose? I don't think I've asked about that one yet.
 
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Dr Peepee

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Lol yeah I should definitely have explained that more. Okay so some Peaches will actually prefer letting you grab them since they can DI for Uthrow pretty easily and they never get juggled so it's like a reset to them. Now if they don't have that strategy or you can convert off of throws better then yeah grabs are more intimidating and force them to shield less/not at all in situations where you threaten a grab.

I think you'd do better to try and figure out a few tools/mixups as deeply as possible and build from there instead of using a lot ineffectively. However, I imagine you could see success either way if you kept messing with it. Just try to make most decisions have a decision point right now and you'll be alright. Some shorter dashes that's obviously going to be harder to do...etc...so just use your best judgment.

Yep that's how that would work.

Laser is more likely to make them stop OR try to get involved to beat other lasers. Dash in ties an immediate attack/pressuring from that laser advantage. Laser in place gives you control of the new position and stops them if they reacted to the movement/thought you might have stopped lasering. It's like staggering a laser instead of spamming it while taking stage, to say it differently.
 

Noscaj

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yo PP or anyone else

I feel like I am at kind of a plateau and am unsure on how to improve or what to work on right now. I think my punish is pretty solid and can only improve so much with little tweaks but my biggest struggle is landing a shine to combo off of

It feels like my neutral is really lacking and holding me back and I dont really know how to go about working on it on my own other than analyzing vods and specific situations. It seems like too often I'll start a game and get a nasty combo and then mess up the edgeguard and not start another combo for too long and end up getting killed.

Any suggestions, I'm kinda tired of just grinding punish over and over and would like something new to focus on
 

Dr Peepee

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Sounds like you'd benefit from working on edgeguarding as well as neutral. What makes it hard to land a shine? Are you good at getting on shield but not landing a shine then, or are you good at getting Nairs and Dairs but not converting afterward? Basically, what is your neutral problem?
 

Noscaj

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i feel like i get too excited to combo and end up playing unsafe and giving my opponent a lot of opportunities to punish

my shield pressure isnt amazing but i think the issue is more of not being able to land a dair or nair to combo into shine often enough

also I want to say thanks so much for responding, Im kinda in shock that you actually responded and so quickly, its incredible that you still are giving back to the community without playing rn

EDIT: one other thing, for working on neutral do you think recording my games and rewatching/analyzing where i could improve would be beneficial or is there a better way
 
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Dr Peepee

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Yeah man I really just want to help people, even if it's only in this way right now.

What do you do that is unsafe? What could you do to make it more safe? The more specifics the better.

And yeah rewatching your games is awesome for learning. You can see where you did something unsafe and then look at when they did to set up a punish and you can come up with ideas of how to play differently/how to beat their specific options.
 

Noscaj

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I'll get into a bit of a rhythm of my dashdancing and lasers and then shffl and miss and get punished out of that

Im gonna hop on netplay rn and get some footage and comeback with some more specific as well
 

Noscaj

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looks like a reoccurring issue is lasering when the opponent is on a platform and im on stage and also lasering too close to them and they jump over with an aerial and punish

another one is kinda odd but going for single hit uair > shine and getting the stronger hitbox and throwing myself off

not properly reacting to a tech roll and just stopping movement or shielding and too far to oos cuz idk what to do in that situation

lasering right next to ledge and opponet just shffls onto stage

consistently dropping edgeguards (not dsmashing, nairing on edge when i should dair, djing off stage too late or in wrong situation)

djing when unnecessary and losing stock because of it

uptilting fastfallers at too low of a percent where they dont get knocked up high

the classic Shieldgrab

improperly spacing aerials (not close enough and miss)

double laser onto stage when unsafe

accidentally di'ing when i want to nair and instead fair comes out

turn around uptilting and eating a laser

shining them onto a platform and they roll away and idk how to react

usmashing in neutral instead of punish


Sadly this all came from only 10 minutes worth of playing, for anyone nice enough to watch the vod I am the rainbow falco





uploading the vod here incase anyone wants to watch it and point out more, but dont feel obligated to do so
 

Dr Peepee

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You can CC the aerial or Utilt/Bair when they're on a platform, so be sure to not just constantly laser and hope they fall into it.

The next few you just need to practice.

Be sure not to hit up during histun unless it's right when you get hit. Hold up on C stick beforehand to still give you DI and then worry about smash DI when you get hit if you're jumping a lot.

More stuff you can practice, or practice doing other things to improve awareness when you get into those situations again.

That Utilt one might just be an outplay. You can just consider what to do instead of Utilt, and also what to do after you get lasered(which is usually just shield or dash away immediately shield so you can Bair OOS).

Practice shine on platform. If their percent is too low for you to follow up, then don't shine them onto the platform. Utilt/Dtilt if you can, or just Dair grab them so you can at least mix their DI up and they can't always DI for throw or shine. There are other solutions as well.

Usmashing in neutral can help you kill, but yeah otherwise no need.

In general, you want to find more consistent problems, or ones that occur across a lot of matches. You also want to see what solutions you can come up with on your own before bringing the questions to others as this helps you learn where your problem-solving abilities can improve, and often you can find answers yourself if you work on issues for a bit.
 

ShroudedOne

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I've been here and there, but overall OK. I don't get to play as much as I want to anymore, but keeping up somewhat. Forgot how nice this thread is to read through. It's good to see you too!
 

Gibbs

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I'm not sure if this is an old school thing that I'm seeing more of, something kinda new, or something well known that I was just ignorant of, but recently I've been seeing mang0 go for upthrow > upsmash on platforms as a kill strat against marth and some floaties. I usually don't think much about falco killing off the top with that move, but I'm starting to think it has more uses than I was giving it credit for.
 

MambaGreenFalco

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Hey PP how's life,

I've been struggling with dash forward, but have found success with dash back in practice. This is for the simple reason that in doing dash back you have time to observe the opponent and react even if that's a slow process. Am I running into the problem of not knowing where my decision point is during the dash? Should I be looking for certain options when doing dash forward or spend most of my energy on observing and then trying to best react to what they do after*** observing them. I'm guessing this process will come better with time but for now I'm struggling to see where to begin strengthening it. I guess this is a question of using dash forward to get an opening or using it to get info, or both. What should I prioritize? Should I go into the option keeping simple mixups in mind and limit myself to those? Maybe mixup dash back bair, laser in place, and approaching SHFFL.

In analyzing this Mango Dfox match I came across an interesting option/decision tree Mango choose starting at 0:49.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfPwnU-WYts

Mango does wd forward shine into turn around sh dair, which he spaces on Dfox's run up shield. Then Dfox tries to do a weird late nair oos which Mango punishes with his own sh bair. Mango had been previously winning interactions on Dfox's shield by crossing up/spacing aerials and baiting out nair oos and punishing with his own sh bair. So did Mango purposefully set up this situation knowing he could win it? Was that the intention of wd forward shine poke into sh dair (which I'm guessing he did to also cover Dfox dash attacking or boost grabbing). This situation is really interesting to me because I've never thought of purposefully setting up situations you know you've already adapted to, which is a little frusturating to me because it's such a simple concept in hindsight.

Also what's the limit of learning super simple mixups really deeply? I can't really think of one myself. How do I go about learning/strengthening simple mixups through analysis? I still don't have vods of my own as I have no access to any players irl or on netplay during the summer :(((. How do I know I'm thinking about the correct mixups when I'm analyzing? I guess I could maybe think of what how the options work together against the opponents simple mixups in a certain situation, and limiting the circle of options to about 3 or 4 to create an rps type mixup in each situation. I don't really like the term rps in Melee because it doesn't incorporate timing or geometry of hit/hurt boxes, but I guess that's the part that I have to think about to discover the nuance after boiling my options do to the core mixups? Am I on the right track?
 
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I don't understand your first question. You're hitting a mid or low height aerial then shining then Sh'ing out of shine then wavelanding down? I feel like that's not what you mean but I don't understand it then.
I probably could've explained this a little bit more. The situation I'm referring to I can't find a good example of, but I'll try elaborating a bit more. What I mean is running up, jumping and doing an aerial shine during your initial dash, and air dodging down. I think it'd be easier if I just said an approaching Westballz shine, but not sure I'm making much sense.

Hope it helps man.
It's taken a few days for all this information to set in, but this has totally helped a ton! I appreciate your time :)
 

Dr Peepee

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Hey PP how's life,

I've been struggling with dash forward, but have found success with dash back in practice. This is for the simple reason that in doing dash back you have time to observe the opponent and react even if that's a slow process. Am I running into the problem of not knowing where my decision point is during the dash? Should I be looking for certain options when doing dash forward or spend most of my energy on observing and then trying to best react to what they do after*** observing them. I'm guessing this process will come better with time but for now I'm struggling to see where to begin strengthening it. I guess this is a question of using dash forward to get an opening or using it to get info, or both. What should I prioritize? Should I go into the option keeping simple mixups in mind and limit myself to those? Maybe mixup dash back bair, laser in place, and approaching SHFFL.

In analyzing this Mango Dfox match I came across an interesting option/decision tree Mango choose starting at 0:49.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfPwnU-WYts

Mango does wd forward shine into turn around sh dair, which he spaces on Dfox's run up shield. Then Dfox tries to do a weird late nair oos which Mango punishes with his own sh bair. Mango had been previously winning interactions on Dfox's shield by crossing up/spacing aerials and baiting out nair oos and punishing with his own sh bair. So did Mango purposefully set up this situation knowing he could win it? Was that the intention of wd forward shine poke into sh dair (which I'm guessing he did to also cover Dfox dash attacking or boost grabbing). This situation is really interesting to me because I've never thought of purposefully setting up situations you know you've already adapted to, which is a little frusturating to me because it's such a simple concept in hindsight.

Also what's the limit of learning super simple mixups really deeply? I can't really think of one myself. How do I go about learning/strengthening simple mixups through analysis? I still don't have vods of my own as I have no access to any players irl or on netplay during the summer :(((. How do I know I'm thinking about the correct mixups when I'm analyzing? I guess I could maybe think of what how the options work together against the opponents simple mixups in a certain situation, and limiting the circle of options to about 3 or 4 to create an rps type mixup in each situation. I don't really like the term rps in Melee because it doesn't incorporate timing or geometry of hit/hurt boxes, but I guess that's the part that I have to think about to discover the nuance after boiling my options do to the core mixups? Am I on the right track?
Dash forward is harder to react out of, so just focus on the dash back one and flesh it out more for now I'd say.

No that isn't what happened here. Mango whiffed a shine, so he WD'd in to shine to try and brute force a conversion/hit the movement back in to punish him not being able to do much out of shine. Most people move away when they whiff shine so Mango played on that and moved in instead. The Dair was to do the same thing but also be harder to punish by drifting away. This sets him up for a Bair nicely when it does hit shield.

There isn't much limit to learning basic mixups really deeply. There are high level players that mix between camping and yolo and have for years now, so anything specific you learn deeply can be super useful to you.
You're doing a play to be hard to beat while covering many options of the opponent + encouraging them to choose certain options as well. Lasers encourage either quick attacks to get in before laser comes out, or vertical play as laser controls the ground well. Once you know this, you can begin combining tools such as Utilt with laser to cover quick vertical attacks that may threaten the laser's weak spots. But this is only a specific answer, and Bair often is more flexible in that you can drift with it and stay safer from other options, though it is slower to come out. So in this way you can see you can evaluate risk reward and coverage differently. Just compare options. If you're unsure, theorize solutions and look for more videos/test out solutions yourself.

I probably could've explained this a little bit more. The situation I'm referring to I can't find a good example of, but I'll try elaborating a bit more. What I mean is running up, jumping and doing an aerial shine during your initial dash, and air dodging down. I think it'd be easier if I just said an approaching Westballz shine, but not sure I'm making much sense.



It's taken a few days for all this information to set in, but this has totally helped a ton! I appreciate your time :)
OH DUH lol that makes sense.

It's a fairly good option. It beats people trying to move OOS to avoid grabs but you're committed in a different way than with aerial because of the waveland. The opponent can struggle to react to all of the fast options you do after laser, so by the time they notice the waveland and react that may be the time they get shined. So I do think it's a good option, but ultimately not super safe and I wouldn't consider it a consistently good choice.
 

Teatra

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Dunno if it's right to ask here, but it's sometimes a bit difficult to find things in these forums. Is there a good writeup on Falco's matchup vs Jigglypuff?
 

MambaGreenFalco

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Dash forward is harder to react out of, so just focus on the dash back one and flesh it out more for now I'd say.

No that isn't what happened here. Mango whiffed a shine, so he WD'd in to shine to try and brute force a conversion/hit the movement back in to punish him not being able to do much out of shine. Most people move away when they whiff shine so Mango played on that and moved in instead. The Dair was to do the same thing but also be harder to punish by drifting away. This sets him up for a Bair nicely when it does hit shield.

There isn't much limit to learning basic mixups really deeply. There are high level players that mix between camping and yolo and have for years now, so anything specific you learn deeply can be super useful to you.
You're doing a play to be hard to beat while covering many options of the opponent + encouraging them to choose certain options as well. Lasers encourage either quick attacks to get in before laser comes out, or vertical play as laser controls the ground well. Once you know this, you can begin combining tools such as Utilt with laser to cover quick vertical attacks that may threaten the laser's weak spots. But this is only a specific answer, and Bair often is more flexible in that you can drift with it and stay safer from other options, though it is slower to come out. So in this way you can see you can evaluate risk reward and coverage differently. Just compare options. If you're unsure, theorize solutions and look for more videos/test out solutions yourself.
So understanding dash back better will be a good base before moving onto dash forward? Shadowboxing earlier today led me to believe that I should simply be making my decision point immediately after doing the dash forward and use my internalized options instead of consciously logging their movement and thinking of a response. Is thinking of a response to their option in real time part of the exercise? Or should I be relying on my internalized options and instead focus on what they're doing in response to my dash back/dash forward/laser in place.

Looking at the interaction in real time, it's pretty obvious that I was wrong. Your explanation of the situation makes sense.

Can you explain this sequence Mango does to me here starting at 3:47 where Mango goes in with the laser and ending with the double jump falling laser at 3;50? It perplexes me as to why Mango would do two "empty" moves in a row. Dash back before going in and then going with a feint shffl double jump falling laser. When I was thinking about this sequence it was a good reminder as to why it's important to learn the basic mixups instead of jumping into complex sequences. Is it important for me to learn more complex sequences like this when I want to be focusing on the basics? Can I perhaps do both by breaking down the parts of Mango's movement and then moving into understanding how they work together?
 

Teatra

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Also, since there isn't a great writeup for Falco vs Jigglypuff, there's one thing I would like to ask about.
Could someone, maybe Dr Peepee Dr Peepee (because your style is a bit relatable), write a bit about the stage choice in the matchup?
I found some older stuff, but I don't know how well it holds up.
I've come to find that platforms can help a lot, but it's hard for me to decide whether big/small stages are better and why.
 
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Dr Peepee

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So understanding dash back better will be a good base before moving onto dash forward? Shadowboxing earlier today led me to believe that I should simply be making my decision point immediately after doing the dash forward and use my internalized options instead of consciously logging their movement and thinking of a response. Is thinking of a response to their option in real time part of the exercise? Or should I be relying on my internalized options and instead focus on what they're doing in response to my dash back/dash forward/laser in place.

Looking at the interaction in real time, it's pretty obvious that I was wrong. Your explanation of the situation makes sense.

Can you explain this sequence Mango does to me here starting at 3:47 where Mango goes in with the laser and ending with the double jump falling laser at 3;50? It perplexes me as to why Mango would do two "empty" moves in a row. Dash back before going in and then going with a feint shffl double jump falling laser. When I was thinking about this sequence it was a good reminder as to why it's important to learn the basic mixups instead of jumping into complex sequences. Is it important for me to learn more complex sequences like this when I want to be focusing on the basics? Can I perhaps do both by breaking down the parts of Mango's movement and then moving into understanding how they work together?
When shadowboxing/practicing movement, it's okay to be thinking of their responses at first. This is what will eventually be internalized. Practice should be both thoughtful and conditioning for actual matches.

Dashed back to confirm what Sheik did on his approach, then didn't do an attack because he would be moving past the roll. Then he DJ'd to encourage an attack on him out of lag, and lasered falling down to hit the attack and get advantage to punish. Basics will always take you farther, so definitely stay focused there. Mango does a lot of basic stuff but can just yolo a lot so if you keep that in mind he's good to watch.

Also, since there isn't a great writeup for Falco vs Jigglypuff, there's one thing I would like to ask about.
Could someone, maybe Dr Peepee Dr Peepee (because your style is a bit relatable), write a bit about the stage choice in the matchup?
I found some older stuff, but I don't know how well it holds up.
I've come to find that platforms can help a lot, but it's hard for me to decide whether big/small stages are better and why.
Big stages are better if you want to be more defensive and especially if you can edgeguard. Smaller stages help with off the side kills and for keeping pressure on/not letting her out of punishes so easily. I like YS because you can also kill off the top really easily and you can recover there pretty well. I like PS because you get plenty of room to control her and the platforms aren't too long so her threat range from there can be more limited, plus killing isn't too hard there if you get a good transformation or just hit her when closer to the edge. I think FD can also be decent since she can't dodge lasers so easily and can't escape punishes to platforms, but of course it hurts your own anti-punishes as well and you can't sit under platforms to shoot her more safely. Does this help?
 

Teatra

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Big stages are better if you want to be more defensive and especially if you can edgeguard. Smaller stages help with off the side kills and for keeping pressure on/not letting her out of punishes so easily. I like YS because you can also kill off the top really easily and you can recover there pretty well. I like PS because you get plenty of room to control her and the platforms aren't too long so her threat range from there can be more limited, plus killing isn't too hard there if you get a good transformation or just hit her when closer to the edge. I think FD can also be decent since she can't dodge lasers so easily and can't escape punishes to platforms, but of course it hurts your own anti-punishes as well and you can't sit under platforms to shoot her more safely. Does this help?
It does help, though, can I ask for your opinions on the tri-plats and FoD?
I feel like the top platform of stages such as Battlefield/Dreamland can be fantastic as a tool to aid Falco's full hop, but I'm unsure of Dreamlands immense amount of space (and blast zones).
I don't know what to think about FoD. It doesn't seem all too great. Ceiling, platforms, etc.
 

Dr Peepee

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BF is kind of weird. You get great escapes and can shoot under the platforms more safely, and the platforms can aid your combos, but sometimes they can also hurt by being so separated. It's a bit hard to kill easily here and you don't have a wall to ride with your up-B which can mean earlier deaths.

DL is similar to BF but killing and punishing are even harder. However, camping is easier. You can also say this differently by saying if you get into a bad situation in neutral that DL is more likely to bail you out.

FoD you can kill off the sides pretty well but not so easily off the top. Camping and comboing can be easier or harder depending on the platform heights, but generally the small space will not give you many opportunities if you lose any interaction. The good news is that it's even easier to extend punishes here than on YS because the platforms are smaller and often closer to the ground than YS so Puff has less places to escape. Of course this works in reverse on you as well. Recovering is fairly good here for you and not really any better for Puff. You have to focus more on aerials than lasers here due to the small space sometimes but that's okay since you outrange Puff in most instances.
 

MambaGreenFalco

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When shadowboxing/practicing movement, it's okay to be thinking of their responses at first. This is what will eventually be internalized. Practice should be both thoughtful and conditioning for actual matches.

Dashed back to confirm what Sheik did on his approach, then didn't do an attack because he would be moving past the roll. Then he DJ'd to encourage an attack on him out of lag, and lasered falling down to hit the attack and get advantage to punish. Basics will always take you farther, so definitely stay focused there. Mango does a lot of basic stuff but can just yolo a lot so if you keep that in mind he's good to watch.


Big stages are better if you want to be more defensive and especially if you can edgeguard. Smaller stages help with off the side kills and for keeping pressure on/not letting her out of punishes so easily. I like YS because you can also kill off the top really easily and you can recover there pretty well. I like PS because you get plenty of room to control her and the platforms aren't too long so her threat range from there can be more limited, plus killing isn't too hard there if you get a good transformation or just hit her when closer to the edge. I think FD can also be decent since she can't dodge lasers so easily and can't escape punishes to platforms, but of course it hurts your own anti-punishes as well and you can't sit under platforms to shoot her more safely. Does this help?
How do I deliberately shadowbox to condition myself to internalize those options for tournament use? Is it simply practicing and repetition? Testing how the same option feels with slight timing or spacing differences?

If I want to focus on basics during analysis should I just move past more complicated movement patterns? The way I analyze right now I break down every interaction and normally don’t move on until I feel satisfied with my breakdown of the situation (through shadowboxing, visualization and exploring different options, sometimes testing percents). In doing this it normally takes me super long to analyze a full game, I normally get about a minute in after 45ish minutes. Any thoughts on my process? Wanted to share it since it’s evolved a lot since the last time I’ve asked about analysis itself.

So for the puff stage stuff it seems pretty straightforward that bigger stages are better defensively for both characters while smaller stages are better offensively. Because of this it seems entirely opinion based beyond ps and ys. So which do you prefer between fod fd and bf?
 

Dr Peepee

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You don't start with shadowboxing. You start with basic tech. Wavedashes over and over, lasers over and over, etc. You get a better feel for the tools(their properties) and think of their effects on opponents. Then you begin putting them together in ways that combine these properties so you can cover options. You practice these combinations. This is about where shadowboxing begins. But yes absolutely, continue practicing with slight timing and spacing differences too, those just aren't the main priority to me, as you can adjust as you begin thinking more deeply about the tools later.

I think analyzing everything is fine, that's what I did. If you don't feel you're learning then you'd need to adjust, but otherwise it's fine.

I haven't played Hbox in a while so I'm not sure, but I did fight against Puff the other day and I found FD good if I could hit edgeguards, and FoD good if I could maintain control. BF seemed harder to control but I could also get more explosive outcomes like kills off the top, so maybe if I was playing well I'd pick BF.
 

Gibbs

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Hey Dr Peepee Dr Peepee , I’ve been thinking about falco DJ a lot recently and am looking for a gut check on some of my thoughts. The basic gist of my idea is reconceptualizing DJ’s utility in the same framework as crouch canceling. There’s lots of talk in MU analysis that the %s where you’re able to crouch moves acts sort of like a traditional fighting game health bar. For instance once puff’s bair forces a tech you’ve essentially spent most of the value in your stock. There’s also the Hax perpetuated meme of Sheik not being a real character till she gets ~ 40% on her opponent’s stock.

In MUs where the opponents win condition at low %s focuses on grabs, DJ is a very useful asset on defense and offense. The idea of saving your DJ as a precious recovery tool that shouldn’t be squandered early at low %s is much less of a worry than it’s offensive timing mixup potential and its role in playing anti grab. Essentially when the win condition is based of grab and stray hits don’t send you flying past the ledge, spend the DJ freely for offense and position. When stray hits can put falco in an edgegaurd position, hoard the DJ for recovery.
 
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