PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[mrdoingboing]

FH/DJ laser onto platform(or falling on FD) hits Peach float height well because she has to always float slightly above side platform height to effectively threaten you. You can also do low SHL on platforms to hit her. If she sees this coming she will drop and you can follow with runoff laser or sh laser into her or laser on platform to keep her from jumping back up, and so on.

Also sometimes if she's closer you can FH Nair her. If she doesn't do early Fair or does Nair you can Utilt/Bair her, and you can also SH delayed Bair her landing since she's usually trying to space Fair around Utilt. This conveniently beats her jabs after landing.

Definitely haven't been utilizing platforms enough in the matchup now that you bring it up. Side plats vs her seem really intuitive since lasers threaten the space in front/above her. Common knowledge always tells me that being above Peach means you're in a good spot, but whenever I try to approach her with a dair from above, her nair just trades with me or straight up beats my dair. If I telegraph it too hard, it even seems like something she can do completely on reaction. Should I just wait for her to come to me, or is there a better approach I should be going for? I've seen westballz get a lot of mileage vs straight up camping vs armada at TBH4, but I'm just not certain that's the end all be all solution.

Also not related to peach, but the weird NC fullhop camping falcos have been giving me more trouble lately than I like to admit. The other day was the first time I got camped by fullhop triple lasers for an entire set, and I didn't feel like I was able to move at all. Obviously learning how to powershield/take laser more effectively is a good place to start, but is there a better way of navigating them on bigger stages like dreamland? Even if the other falco was aggressively cornering himself, I felt like he had enough ways out of the corner to prevent me from consistently capitalizing on his bad stage positioning.

 

[Bones0]

Hey so I just started getting into smash about 2 months ago, needless to say I'm pretty bad. I've just been playing netplay friendlies as much as I can, and I've improved quite a bit from when I started. I haven't done any real analysis on the game, since I figured I needed to just get a feel for the game first. Plus how can I begin to analyze when I don't know the first thing about anything? A lot of times I'm just getting beat because of my sloppy movement and missed inputs. But now as I'm starting to get more comfortable with my control, I'm wondering when I should begin the analysis process. Is it ever to early to start? Should I just keep playing and learning more naturally, and keep getting a better feel for the game?

I pretty much agree with your impression that analyzing your own matches won't help too much when you're first starting out. My advice would be to watch high level Falcos and see what strategies they implement. Once you have good enough tech skill and are able to try using coherent strategies, then you can start analyzing your match to figure out why your actions were successful or ineffective. The one big exception is bad habits. Every new player tends to resort to the same few options over and over because they haven't had a chance to practice the wide variety of options Melee gives you. When you watch your matches, look at when you get hit and see if it's because you did something predictable. Rolling in, teching in place, ledge hop double laser when the opponent is close, etc. are all common issues.

I recommend having notes on your phone/computer with general strategies for each matchup. You will improve much faster if you go into each game with a specific strategy in mind. Your initial strategies will not be that good so don't worry about getting the perfect plan, just get SOMETHING down so you can build it up and improve from there. I like to divide my gameplans into 5 main sections. You can go really in depth with any specific point, and sometimes that's helpful, but ultimately you should have a barebones outline to take to tournaments and review before your sets. Here's a simple example to give you an idea of what kind of notes will be helpful (some notes will be specific to you).

FALCO vs. MARTH

NEUTRAL:
- Laser to stuff his ground movement
- Attack him when he moves forward
- Stay off of platforms

OFFENSE:
- Stay underneath him during combos

DEFENSE:
- Don't roll in every time

EDGEGUARD:
- Ledge hop bair if he side-Bs too close

RECOVERY:
- Don't up-B too close to the stage
- Shine stall after being thrown off instead of immediately double jumping every time

 

[Dr Peepee]

Thanks bones I'll try to work on my laser game/think more about each laser im doing and why.

I have a more specific questions for the board too.

1. What do I do against sheik roll? I generally do OK vs sheiks playing standard but I played one sheik today who after pretty much every move would just roll. It has such little lag I found trying to react with dair was almost always unsuccessful even when she was rolling into me. Even when I read it and preempted it with a wd back or a dair to cover away, she would be able to dsmash or shield a lot of the time. Also I found dair very difficult to space properly so shine would hit afterwards, but I think thats more of practice thing to get my dairs more accurately (and experience in knowing excatly where she'll be after a roll). What do you guys usually do to punish sheik roll? Is it as unreactable as it seems to me?

2. Is there a video or something I can read about combating marth uptilt on platforms? I know you can do some double stick DI to slide off but im not sure which directions to do.

3. What do you guys think about buffered fullhop after a tech vs marth? I find it's pretty good if you think they are gonna go for a grab right away or try to wait out a spot dodge or shine, and making them go for moves after you tech seems pretty good to me (obviously this only applies if they can't get you when you're inactionable after techs)

1. Depends on what situation the Sheik is rolling in, but I'd say just leave more space in your actions for waiting instead of doing something. You're not getting attacked anyway right? And if Sheik rolls away you can laser and keep control.

2. Probably? I'm sure Falco R&D discord knows videos and stuff for all of that. Bones probably knows as well, but if he doesn't tell you then you can just hold down and off and probably be fine. If you're ever unsure just test it.

3. Can be good, but done too often you risk Marth following you. FH mixed with Shine mixed with retreating Dair(or Dair out of shine) mixed with Ftilt higher percent are all great.

Definitely haven't been utilizing platforms enough in the matchup now that you bring it up. Side plats vs her seem really intuitive since lasers threaten the space in front/above her. Common knowledge always tells me that being above Peach means you're in a good spot, but whenever I try to approach her with a dair from above, her nair just trades with me or straight up beats my dair. If I telegraph it too hard, it even seems like something she can do completely on reaction. Should I just wait for her to come to me, or is there a better approach I should be going for? I've seen westballz get a lot of mileage vs straight up camping vs armada at TBH4, but I'm just not certain that's the end all be all solution.

Also not related to peach, but the weird NC fullhop camping falcos have been giving me more trouble lately than I like to admit. The other day was the first time I got camped by fullhop triple lasers for an entire set, and I didn't feel like I was able to move at all. Obviously learning how to powershield/take laser more effectively is a good place to start, but is there a better way of navigating them on bigger stages like dreamland? Even if the other falco was aggressively cornering himself, I felt like he had enough ways out of the corner to prevent me from consistently capitalizing on his bad stage positioning.

If you Dair into her diagonally(where her arms aren't) her Nair won't hit you, but if you're too far away you shouldn't Dair and should just laser instead. Her float is super slow(float with her yourself and see, especially when trying to change directions) so hit her at a point where the float won't be able to really go anywhere. If you laser her down, you can fall with her and laser to hold her on the ground as I said and then fight her on the ground which is good for you. You def don't need camping and it would only work on BF/DL, but if you want to do it then I understand.

Well you'd need to tell me how he's getting out of the corner. If he's hitting with the last laser before getting out, then you'd want to laser him as he landed so he had no advantage then play the situation, or even run in and Nair/Fair him so you could hit him before his last laser came out if he's always triple lasering since that's definitely not fast.

 

[mrdoingboing]

Well you'd need to tell me how he's getting out of the corner. If he's hitting with the last laser before getting out, then you'd want to laser him as he landed so he had no advantage then play the situation, or even run in and Nair/Fair him so you could hit him before his last laser came out if he's always triple lasering since that's definitely not fast.

So I went back and watched the vod, and it seemed to be an issue specifically on DL. Reason being the top plat is low enough and far enough from the corner for him to fullhop aerial from the corner. To be more specific, the scenario would usually play out in one of two ways:

1. If I was on top plat to avoid laser pressure, he'd fullhop from either the ground or side platform and laser me a bit. At that point he'd be on the side plat. As soon as I tried to approach from the top plat, he'd SH laser from the side plat to the center of the stage. This would hit me on the top plat if I stayed there because of the weird platform heights on that stage, or would allow him to escape from me if I went for some approach toward the side plat. Since I was more than likely on the side plat at this point, he would just run to the other side of the stage and repeat ad nauseam until he felt like he was in an advantageous situation to approach me. Even then, most of his approaches were really unsafe and I punished him well for the most part, but it wasn't enough to win me the game.

2. His other escape from the corner was with fullhop aerials onto the top plat. This seemed to work whenever I was on the side plat above him, or he used it to cover himself to escape while I was standing under the top plat. In the latter situation, I feel I could probably react to some extent, but he'd almost certainly get his shield up before I managed to reach him with an aerial.

The 2nd scenario was much much less common and I feel like I could react pretty effectively to it now that I know to look out for it. However, the 1st scenario is something I'm having trouble figuring out. I alluded to it in the beginning, but I'm not entirely sure this would be as much of an issue to deal with on other 3 platform stage layouts. BF has a higher top plat and is horizontally scrunched compared to DL, and fountain's layout is inconsistent among other confounds. For the time being, I've kind of accepted to just steer clear of DL against these types of players. However, I'd like to come up with some kind of countermeasures if at all possible.

On the off chance that having actual footage might help you figure something out that I wasn't super clear on, here is the DL game in its entirety: https://youtu.be/MlOrcwbK__U?t=2m21s

 

[Bones0]

kaptinkillem
Sorry, missed the specific question about DIing utilts on platforms. The most important thing to understand about DIing moves is that DIing perpendicular to the default trajectory will influence your actual trajectory the most. For any given move, that means you have 2 DIs with max influence. For vertical moves like Fox's uthrow, that is left and right, which are both perpendicular to the 90 degree angle his throw normally sends at. For Falco's dsmash which sends opponents almost horizontal, perpendicular DI is straight up or straight down. If you want to survival DI Falco's dsmash, you would hold up, and if you want to tech it, you would hold down.

So if you apply this to Marth's utilt, you'll notice that it sends at approximately a 45 degree angle behind Marth. If he's facing right, you will go up and left. Perpendicular to up-left is up-right or down-left. DIing up-right will cause you to go mostly straight up while DIing down-left will cause you to go mostly left. If your goal is to slide off of the platform, you should use the C-stick to ASDI down into the ground, then DI perpendicular into the platform (down-left) to get sent at the lowest angle possible. If you have more questions about DI, I recommend watching Kadano's "Melee Mechanics" videos. They explain pretty much everything about DI and how to do it properly.

 

[Klemes]

Dr Peepee
How do you treat Peach when she's holding a turnip ? I often get surprised by their shieldstun and Peaches often manage to get a big punish on me off of a turnip throw (or sometimes bait> FC aerial to catch my jump OoS for example).

I'm puzzled : what kind of respect should I give Peach with / without a turnip ? Do you actually look for the clank with the turnip (AC bair seems best to me) what do you get out of it, and what are the risks ?

Also vs Peach I believe more and more Falco simply can't apply the same kind of control on ground vs ground play with movement, lasers, zoning moves : it's just not how I get openings generally (maybe I struggle to make her commit in bad spots ?). Whereas Peach sucessfully calls me out with Dash Attack (=rekt), punishes landings a pixel off with Dsmash (=rekt), and then she smells when I fear and instinctively put up shield next to her and grabs me automatically (=rekt).

So yeah you could say my matches against Peaches around my level or better have not been going well lately LUL.

So I look more for vertical interactions, because I realize her jumps are slow AF and her ground speed doesn't allow her to claim my space when I take off that well (like marth). But I still struggle to get anything big on her. Aerial trades are nice because it looks really hard for her to place a nair that well against Falco falling/jumping to another plat with nair/bair/dair, but I don't get her to jump all that often. So how exactly do I threaten her staying grounded there ? Landing with laser/tomahawk > uthrow to get HER in the air (and bair her floaty ass away from there) ? Because I'm still very prone to throw out a bad dair on shield > get rekt when I'm above her

 

[Dr Peepee]

So I went back and watched the vod, and it seemed to be an issue specifically on DL. Reason being the top plat is low enough and far enough from the corner for him to fullhop aerial from the corner. To be more specific, the scenario would usually play out in one of two ways:

1. If I was on top plat to avoid laser pressure, he'd fullhop from either the ground or side platform and laser me a bit. At that point he'd be on the side plat. As soon as I tried to approach from the top plat, he'd SH laser from the side plat to the center of the stage. This would hit me on the top plat if I stayed there because of the weird platform heights on that stage, or would allow him to escape from me if I went for some approach toward the side plat. Since I was more than likely on the side plat at this point, he would just run to the other side of the stage and repeat ad nauseam until he felt like he was in an advantageous situation to approach me. Even then, most of his approaches were really unsafe and I punished him well for the most part, but it wasn't enough to win me the game.

2. His other escape from the corner was with fullhop aerials onto the top plat. This seemed to work whenever I was on the side plat above him, or he used it to cover himself to escape while I was standing under the top plat. In the latter situation, I feel I could probably react to some extent, but he'd almost certainly get his shield up before I managed to reach him with an aerial.

The 2nd scenario was much much less common and I feel like I could react pretty effectively to it now that I know to look out for it. However, the 1st scenario is something I'm having trouble figuring out. I alluded to it in the beginning, but I'm not entirely sure this would be as much of an issue to deal with on other 3 platform stage layouts. BF has a higher top plat and is horizontally scrunched compared to DL, and fountain's layout is inconsistent among other confounds. For the time being, I've kind of accepted to just steer clear of DL against these types of players. However, I'd like to come up with some kind of countermeasures if at all possible.

On the off chance that having actual footage might help you figure something out that I wasn't super clear on, here is the DL game in its entirety: https://youtu.be/MlOrcwbK__U?t=2m21s

I'll just respond to 1 then.

Didn't know which of you was which in the video lol. Anyway, if the beginning is what you're talking about, then you can SHL on the platform to hit them as they rise then go after them. If that fails, neither Falco really has advantage there. When you're on the side platform, you can SHL on that to keep the opponent from jumping above you. Notice how the neutral Falco keeps jumping into lasers that are above him and that puts him at disadvantage? You can do the same thing. The green Falco is just shooting where he hopes you will be and as long as neutral keeps following then they will stay at disadvantage. Falco dittos require more thinking ahead than this. Let me know if that helps.

Dr Peepee
How do you treat Peach when she's holding a turnip ? I often get surprised by their shieldstun and Peaches often manage to get a big punish on me off of a turnip throw (or sometimes bait> FC aerial to catch my jump OoS for example).

I'm puzzled : what kind of respect should I give Peach with / without a turnip ? Do you actually look for the clank with the turnip (AC bair seems best to me) what do you get out of it, and what are the risks ?

Also vs Peach I believe more and more Falco simply can't apply the same kind of control on ground vs ground play with movement, lasers, zoning moves : it's just not how I get openings generally (maybe I struggle to make her commit in bad spots ?). Whereas Peach sucessfully calls me out with Dash Attack (=rekt), punishes landings a pixel off with Dsmash (=rekt), and then she smells when I fear and instinctively put up shield next to her and grabs me automatically (=rekt).

So yeah you could say my matches against Peaches around my level or better have not been going well lately LUL.

So I look more for vertical interactions, because I realize her jumps are slow AF and her ground speed doesn't allow her to claim my space when I take off that well (like marth). But I still struggle to get anything big on her. Aerial trades are nice because it looks really hard for her to place a nair that well against Falco falling/jumping to another plat with nair/bair/dair, but I don't get her to jump all that often. So how exactly do I threaten her staying grounded there ? Landing with laser/tomahawk > uthrow to get HER in the air (and bair her floaty *** away from there) ? Because I'm still very prone to throw out a bad dair on shield > get rekt when I'm above her

I get close to Peach holding a turnip because she can't CC punish me and I can beat her aerials if I know she's forced to do them. You can also run away until she throws but that has worked less for me, and of course you can also shine them back at her. If you do have to shield them, you just have to take the pressure/roll or jump away there's not much else you can do lol.

I talked about fighting Peach generally above let me know if that comment was helpful.

 

[Squidster]

New TR Focus
Aight so I’ve been practicing what you said, as a result I space further than before when I don’t have a laser out, and when I do have a laser in TR I do a lot more approaching aerial afterwards. Overall it feels quite good and I have a few thoughts / questions. I’ve been practicing vs Marth so most questions will be in that context.

What is Falcos real TR?
First question is about Falco’s TR. You say it’s Falcos dash sh Nair range but in my experience it ends up functionally being shorter than that. Since Falco runs slow it feels like even with the frame advantage from a laser at this range the Nair loses to most Marth options (take laser jab / dash back, shield laser Fair / Nair oos). That being said I just reread your post and I’m realizing that the threat of sh Nair at this range forces these options which can be taken advantage of, like all the things I listed lose to waiting a bit before approaching. If you’re closer tho the laser > approaching Nair / Dair seems pretty oppressive as it stuffs basically everything.

Playing outside opponents TR
K so Marth’s have wd in jab, dash attack, run up side b, approaching sh aerial. I find that Marth has a different TR if I’m lasering or if I’m not. Like Marth can’t technically dash attack between 2 lasers so if I have a laser out and I’m lasering fast then I don’t really have to account for dash attack. Dash dancing is great to mixup timings and bait out responses but if I dash dance I risk functionally extending his TR and making things worse? I guess I dash dance once I get close to my TR to force a response which I either get to straight punish or I react to it and get a guaranteed laser within TR.

As I’m writing this I also realize I should slight approaching laser more, I would have problems where my approaching lasers either get stuffed or he runs right past them but slight approaching lasers put pressure and maintain control better.

Option out of laser in TR
Once I land a laser IN TR I find that laser > approaching aerial is insanely powerful, laser > run up grab can be good if they shield a lot, laser > shinegrab is good if I land all the way on them. Honestly approaching Dair is much safer than I thought at this range and I regularly now just get laser > approaching dair past their shield > dash back approaching dair right back at em to cover wd or something. I also now see the value of laser > dash back > instantly pick an option as dashing back and approaching beats a slew of swinging options from marth while dashing back and lasering can setup another threat asap.

All of these together clarify what you meant when you talked about not over dash dancing.

I may have rambled on but I think I had question in there lmao, thoughts?

 

[mrdoingboing]

I'll just respond to 1 then.

Didn't know which of you was which in the video lol. Anyway, if the beginning is what you're talking about, then you can SHL on the platform to hit them as they rise then go after them. If that fails, neither Falco really has advantage there. When you're on the side platform, you can SHL on that to keep the opponent from jumping above you. Notice how the neutral Falco keeps jumping into lasers that are above him and that puts him at disadvantage? You can do the same thing. The green Falco is just shooting where he hopes you will be and as long as neutral keeps following then they will stay at disadvantage. Falco dittos require more thinking ahead than this. Let me know if that helps.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention I was neutral lol. I've been told that I play too proactively and often run into things that I could probably avoid by just taking a step back, and I guess the ditto sort of accentuates this hole in my gameplay. Hearing it from you really helps, I'll keep working toward it and try to slow things down the next time I find myself in a similar situation. Thanks for all the advice!

 

[Bones0]

New TR Focus
Aight so I’ve been practicing what you said, as a result I space further than before when I don’t have a laser out, and when I do have a laser in TR I do a lot more approaching aerial afterwards. Overall it feels quite good and I have a few thoughts / questions. I’ve been practicing vs Marth so most questions will be in that context.

What is Falcos real TR?
First question is about Falco’s TR. You say it’s Falcos dash sh Nair range but in my experience it ends up functionally being shorter than that. Since Falco runs slow it feels like even with the frame advantage from a laser at this range the Nair loses to most Marth options (take laser jab / dash back, shield laser Fair / Nair oos). That being said I just reread your post and I’m realizing that the threat of sh Nair at this range forces these options which can be taken advantage of, like all the things I listed lose to waiting a bit before approaching. If you’re closer tho the laser > approaching Nair / Dair seems pretty oppressive as it stuffs basically everything.

Playing outside opponents TR
K so Marth’s have wd in jab, dash attack, run up side b, approaching sh aerial. I find that Marth has a different TR if I’m lasering or if I’m not. Like Marth can’t technically dash attack between 2 lasers so if I have a laser out and I’m lasering fast then I don’t really have to account for dash attack. Dash dancing is great to mixup timings and bait out responses but if I dash dance I risk functionally extending his TR and making things worse? I guess I dash dance once I get close to my TR to force a response which I either get to straight punish or I react to it and get a guaranteed laser within TR.

As I’m writing this I also realize I should slight approaching laser more, I would have problems where my approaching lasers either get stuffed or he runs right past them but slight approaching lasers put pressure and maintain control better.

Option out of laser in TR
Once I land a laser IN TR I find that laser > approaching aerial is insanely powerful, laser > run up grab can be good if they shield a lot, laser > shinegrab is good if I land all the way on them. Honestly approaching Dair is much safer than I thought at this range and I regularly now just get laser > approaching dair past their shield > dash back approaching dair right back at em to cover wd or something. I also now see the value of laser > dash back > instantly pick an option as dashing back and approaching beats a slew of swinging options from marth while dashing back and lasering can setup another threat asap.

All of these together clarify what you meant when you talked about not over dash dancing.

I may have rambled on but I think I had question in there lmao, thoughts?

I'm assuming TR stands for threat range, right? It sounds like once you get near the edge of your SHFFL range, you stop lasering... but why? As long as you're outside of Marth's fair OoS range (which is definitely shorter than the edge of Falco's SHFFL range), I say just keep lighting them up, or at least until you get a feel for how they play. If you notice they like to fair OoS after lasers at this range, you can start waiting and whiff punishing. If they like to WD forward, they will end up right in front of you as you laser, which you can follow up with grab, fadeaway aerial, or dash back to whiff punish whatever they do (usually grab if they're WDing right into you like that). If they like to WD back, then you can chase them down with an approaching laser to simply rinse and repeat. Things get kinda complicated when they start jumping and getting hit by lasers or using platforms because spacing matters a lot and beating take-laser-fair is actually really annoying, so I don't really have any good answers for that yet other than readjust or call out the jumps before they happen.

 

[Dr Peepee]

New TR Focus
Aight so I’ve been practicing what you said, as a result I space further than before when I don’t have a laser out, and when I do have a laser in TR I do a lot more approaching aerial afterwards. Overall it feels quite good and I have a few thoughts / questions. I’ve been practicing vs Marth so most questions will be in that context.

What is Falcos real TR?
First question is about Falco’s TR. You say it’s Falcos dash sh Nair range but in my experience it ends up functionally being shorter than that. Since Falco runs slow it feels like even with the frame advantage from a laser at this range the Nair loses to most Marth options (take laser jab / dash back, shield laser Fair / Nair oos). That being said I just reread your post and I’m realizing that the threat of sh Nair at this range forces these options which can be taken advantage of, like all the things I listed lose to waiting a bit before approaching. If you’re closer tho the laser > approaching Nair / Dair seems pretty oppressive as it stuffs basically everything.

Playing outside opponents TR
K so Marth’s have wd in jab, dash attack, run up side b, approaching sh aerial. I find that Marth has a different TR if I’m lasering or if I’m not. Like Marth can’t technically dash attack between 2 lasers so if I have a laser out and I’m lasering fast then I don’t really have to account for dash attack. Dash dancing is great to mixup timings and bait out responses but if I dash dance I risk functionally extending his TR and making things worse? I guess I dash dance once I get close to my TR to force a response which I either get to straight punish or I react to it and get a guaranteed laser within TR.

As I’m writing this I also realize I should slight approaching laser more, I would have problems where my approaching lasers either get stuffed or he runs right past them but slight approaching lasers put pressure and maintain control better.

Option out of laser in TR
Once I land a laser IN TR I find that laser > approaching aerial is insanely powerful, laser > run up grab can be good if they shield a lot, laser > shinegrab is good if I land all the way on them. Honestly approaching Dair is much safer than I thought at this range and I regularly now just get laser > approaching dair past their shield > dash back approaching dair right back at em to cover wd or something. I also now see the value of laser > dash back > instantly pick an option as dashing back and approaching beats a slew of swinging options from marth while dashing back and lasering can setup another threat asap.

All of these together clarify what you meant when you talked about not over dash dancing.

I may have rambled on but I think I had question in there lmao, thoughts?

That's good, because Marth forces you to really think about these things.

TR is NOT the range you can beat their options at. That is more of a winning range which will always be inside TR. TR is the range your farthest threat reaches, which of course can have the opponent react if you were to fully lunge from that position. TR is also known as a reaction range, because at that range(for top tiers more or less they're somewhat equivalent) both characters can react to each other's options. But you kinda went through the thought process on that already with the baiting things out, so you were already on top of this I suppose lol. I figured I'd clarify anyway.

Yeah I don't have the best explanation for this laser TR-changing effect to be honest. The reason laser DD is so good though is because it pushes that TR advantage and aerial threat onto the opponent. DD'ing aimlessly kills you though because then you're not pushing a threat and they get all of their threat range back and get to abuse mobility against you. You're absolutely right though, I love slight lasers because of their change in TR(especially extension on forward) and because they add depth to the laser DD.

Yep this all honestly looks good to me I think you're on the right track now. Very happy to see that!

 

[Squidster]

Ah ok winning range is a good term to explain the general feeling I had.

I played a tournament yesterday and ended up often just feeling scared and falling back on old habits so it’ll take me some time to commit to this. I definitely have moments where I see the power though so I look forward to practicing this much more.

Hoping we can talk about it in context of Sheik a bit since Faceroll back in Socal and farmed me yesterday lol.

Sheik has some spooky forward threats (dash attack / boost grab) and some spooky defensive options that seem to come out quickly and not have that much time to punish (Ftilt, all sh aerials basically). And shield / wavedash and stuff kinda help these options too.

Now I imagine I want to play outside of Sheik’s TR to establish lasers, and then when I land a laser at my max TR I imagine it’s really powerful to do laser > DD > approach, dash dance just to mixup your timing not to wait and react to something since it doesn’t seem like you have time to react to say, an Ftilt and punish it but if you just delay your attack timing you’ll beat it. The exact amount of time to dash dance to beat her defensive options might vary based on sh aerials, ff vs no ff, Ftilt, wd back stuff etc. I’m imagining this is why laser dash back turnaround laser is good because you essentially get to scout what type of DD you need to do to beat whatever defensive options she’s using?

Speaking of laser dash back turnaround laser, what do you look to do after the 2nd laser? You just gave up a bit of space, you might be a little outside your TR. I’m imagining an approach off this laser would be weak and dash dancing COULD work but you might too far to really push your TR on them. Slight approaching laser after the dash back laser seems strong? Or maybe like run up wd back SHL to try to push forward or something.

This style is dope but little knowledge gaps like the one I just described above end up making me hesitate for a split second too long, I’m not used to being quite so decisive after every laser lol.

 

[Dr Peepee]

There are a variety of reasons why laser dash back turnaround laser is good. One is definitely scout if you can dash in/attack in after dashing back and also to encourage Sheik to let you do that. Discouraging Sheik DA is something you want to establish asap so you can push in closer and threaten her Ftilt much more easily.

There's a lot you can do at that point. From the position you're right you can't really go in unless the Sheik just goes hard for some reason. Slight laser in is pretty common for me, but you fully dash in delayed laser to change timing and let them maybe come in a little, you could full dash in half dash back laser to reset spacing after gaining info and seeing how much they want to play defensive or rush you down between lasers. Sometimes I just WD in laser so I can take more space than with dash(closer means more threatening) and I don't think they will approach anyway, plus no one expects Falco to WD lol. Run up WD back SHL in is an awesome tool as well! There are many good options here and I highly encourage you to experiment. First you might find it most useful to think about how they're thinking in this position and observe them as much as possible in game and on video to see what they like to do and then work from there if you'd like to work backwards to solve it.

Hope that helps.

 

[Bones0]

There are a variety of reasons why laser dash back turnaround laser is good. One is definitely scout if you can dash in/attack in after dashing back and also to encourage Sheik to let you do that. Discouraging Sheik DA is something you want to establish asap so you can push in closer and threaten her Ftilt much more easily.

There's a lot you can do at that point. From the position you're right you can't really go in unless the Sheik just goes hard for some reason. Slight laser in is pretty common for me, but you fully dash in delayed laser to change timing and let them maybe come in a little, you could full dash in half dash back laser to reset spacing after gaining info and seeing how much they want to play defensive or rush you down between lasers. Sometimes I just WD in laser so I can take more space than with dash(closer means more threatening) and I don't think they will approach anyway, plus no one expects Falco to WD lol. Run up WD back SHL in is an awesome tool as well! There are many good options here and I highly encourage you to experiment. First you might find it most useful to think about how they're thinking in this position and observe them as much as possible in game and on video to see what they like to do and then work from there if you'd like to work backwards to solve it.

Hope that helps.

I'm surprised to hear you prefer discouraging dash attack. I feel like I actually space in a way that baits dash attacks and boost grabs as much as possible because if I anticipate them properly, I get a juicy dair (dash back after laser, SH backflip). Is there a risk/downside to this kind of coverage that I'm not seeing? Also, what do you like to threaten ftilt with? Are you just talking about general whiff punishes (SHFFLs, dash attack, grab), or more preventative measures like attacking her to stuff her ftilt before it comes out?

 

[StrayDog]

I'm surprised to hear you prefer discouraging dash attack. I feel like I actually space in a way that baits dash attacks and boost grabs as much as possible because if I anticipate them properly, I get a juicy dair (dash back after laser, SH backflip). Is there a risk/downside to this kind of coverage that I'm not seeing? Also, what do you like to threaten ftilt with? Are you just talking about general whiff punishes (SHFFLs, dash attack, grab), or more preventative measures like attacking her to stuff her ftilt before it comes out?

Same actually. I find Sheik's approaches much easier to deal with than her defensive options which seem very tight. I'd like to hear PP's thought process on this as well.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm surprised to hear you prefer discouraging dash attack. I feel like I actually space in a way that baits dash attacks and boost grabs as much as possible because if I anticipate them properly, I get a juicy dair (dash back after laser, SH backflip). Is there a risk/downside to this kind of coverage that I'm not seeing? Also, what do you like to threaten ftilt with? Are you just talking about general whiff punishes (SHFFLs, dash attack, grab), or more preventative measures like attacking her to stuff her ftilt before it comes out?

That's a fair point. If I felt I could get Sheiks to do that often I might play around that space more. However I think Sheiks already don't like taking the risk and I would not like to give her an opportunity to work around my lasers to slowly come in(I really dislike Sheik being able to somewhat easily SH drift in Fair against the way Falco naturally moves). I've found the position where I'm inside her DA range but just outside her walk Ftilt range to put a ton of pressure on her(making her pop Ftilts then hitting her feels better and lets me keep more stage for example) and that has been more comfortable for me. It might be fine to do it your way too though, but I wouldn't know much about it since I don't play that position much.

I'm generally threatening with late Nair approaches but if Sheik swings I go with Dair obviously. If she chooses to keep waiting I'll laser a little closer and start spacing aerials or go for grab/shine mixups. Sometimes I can go to this step first so when I get back to the outside Ftilt position she will be much more likely to swing. I generally don't try to stuff Ftilt before it comes out but it happens occasionally.

Let me know if that makes sense.

 

[Bones0]

That's a fair point. If I felt I could get Sheiks to do that often I might play around that space more. However I think Sheiks already don't like taking the risk and I would not like to give her an opportunity to work around my lasers to slowly come in(I really dislike Sheik being able to somewhat easily SH drift in Fair against the way Falco naturally moves). I've found the position where I'm inside her DA range but just outside her walk Ftilt range to put a ton of pressure on her(making her pop Ftilts then hitting her feels better and lets me keep more stage for example) and that has been more comfortable for me. It might be fine to do it your way too though, but I wouldn't know much about it since I don't play that position much.

I'm generally threatening with late Nair approaches but if Sheik swings I go with Dair obviously. If she chooses to keep waiting I'll laser a little closer and start spacing aerials or go for grab/shine mixups. Sometimes I can go to this step first so when I get back to the outside Ftilt position she will be much more likely to swing. I generally don't try to stuff Ftilt before it comes out but it happens occasionally.

Let me know if that makes sense.

That makes a lot of sense, and your first post is much clearer to me with that clarification. I have sort of gotten to the point where I discourage them from doing DA/boost grab by punishing in the way I described, so I'll have to start spacing closer when they respect that whiff punish to be in position to punish ftilt as well.

Do you have any thoughts on her aerials, particularly SH AC fair? I think that's the main reason I try not to space that close in the first place. Mango often seems to get locked in shield but then just SHs forward and dairs OoS to stuff Sheiks before they get the fair out. Example of a failed attempt:

I'm not sure exactly what he's doing/thinking in these moments, but I have been unsuccessful trying to get the same sort of dair to work. The Sheiks I play seem to be spacing further away once they realize I'm shielding because they know Falco doesn't have any good forward range, and this range also lets them abuse max ftilt spacing. I generally just roll away, but that often doesn't relieve the pressure, not to mention it gives up a significant chunk of stage. It reminds me of Marth's shield pressure, but at least vs. Marth I don't immediately die if he fairs me trying to FH or WD OoS. Sheik fair, on the other hand, almost always sends me straight to the corner, if not outright killing me, above 30%.

 

[mrdoingboing]

To piggyback off the current topic, I had a lot of trouble today getting stuck in shield vs. Sheik during a tournament set tonight. It felt like if I tried to do something like dair OOS to try and punish a spaced fair on my shield, I would just end up getting hit first by something like ftilt or jab. I thought about waiting for the supposed ftilt or jab, but I always was too scared of just getting grabbed and felt I should just do something instead. I'm not huge on rolling, but maybe that's the best thing to do if I feel like I'm getting super pressured like that? Shine OOS is obviously a bit faster, but I don't see myself being close enough to punish unless they go super into my shield with something like nair or dash attack. And I'd love to pre-empt a dair before they end up hitting my shield in the first place, but I feel like if I get caught by something like dash forward -> wavedash back I'll eat a full punish. Trading/getting outspaced by fair would also really suck. Is the best thing I can do in a situation like this to just hold shield and wait for a sloppy attack on my shield or even getting grabbed, then do what I can to mitigate the tech chase? Against a sheik that has reaction tech chases down super well, this feels like arguably the worst option I can choose. Sorry about how disorganized all of this is, I'm just a little lost despite how much thought I've put into it.

Dr Peepee Also thanks for your advice on the ditto the other day. I took some of your advice and whooped the guy that beat me last week. Felt really good, and I couldn't have done it without your insight

 

[Dr Peepee]

That makes a lot of sense, and your first post is much clearer to me with that clarification. I have sort of gotten to the point where I discourage them from doing DA/boost grab by punishing in the way I described, so I'll have to start spacing closer when they respect that whiff punish to be in position to punish ftilt as well.

Do you have any thoughts on her aerials, particularly SH AC fair? I think that's the main reason I try not to space that close in the first place. Mango often seems to get locked in shield but then just SHs forward and dairs OoS to stuff Sheiks before they get the fair out. Example of a failed attempt:

I'm not sure exactly what he's doing/thinking in these moments, but I have been unsuccessful trying to get the same sort of dair to work. The Sheiks I play seem to be spacing further away once they realize I'm shielding because they know Falco doesn't have any good forward range, and this range also lets them abuse max ftilt spacing. I generally just roll away, but that often doesn't relieve the pressure, not to mention it gives up a significant chunk of stage. It reminds me of Marth's shield pressure, but at least vs. Marth I don't immediately die if he fairs me trying to FH or WD OoS. Sheik fair, on the other hand, almost always sends me straight to the corner, if not outright killing me, above 30%.

Yeah the Fair is the main reason this is a pain. The good news is at the spacing I'm recommending you can half dash back laser and beat any drift in she could do. If she's coming in hard you can aerial straight up or out of dash back like Mango does. The main issue is when she SHs directly over your laser, and that's why I often don't laser in place at that range unless I'm pretty sure I've discouraged any approaching so I can just focus on beating Ftilt/WD back/shield. Anyway you'd probably also find success just getting into position and getting ready to go straight into Sheik with an aerial when she SHs, with or without a laser at that point. Discouraging that SH is a high priority at any rate so how you do it is up to you.

To piggyback off the current topic, I had a lot of trouble today getting stuck in shield vs. Sheik during a tournament set tonight. It felt like if I tried to do something like dair OOS to try and punish a spaced fair on my shield, I would just end up getting hit first by something like ftilt or jab. I thought about waiting for the supposed ftilt or jab, but I always was too scared of just getting grabbed and felt I should just do something instead. I'm not huge on rolling, but maybe that's the best thing to do if I feel like I'm getting super pressured like that? Shine OOS is obviously a bit faster, but I don't see myself being close enough to punish unless they go super into my shield with something like nair or dash attack. And I'd love to pre-empt a dair before they end up hitting my shield in the first place, but I feel like if I get caught by something like dash forward -> wavedash back I'll eat a full punish. Trading/getting outspaced by fair would also really suck. Is the best thing I can do in a situation like this to just hold shield and wait for a sloppy attack on my shield or even getting grabbed, then do what I can to mitigate the tech chase? Against a sheik that has reaction tech chases down super well, this feels like arguably the worst option I can choose. Sorry about how disorganized all of this is, I'm just a little lost despite how much thought I've put into it.

Dr Peepee Also thanks for your advice on the ditto the other day. I took some of your advice and whooped the guy that beat me last week. Felt really good, and I couldn't have done it without your insight

Good job on the ditto man!

And yeah once you're stuck in shield against Sheik you gotta kinda take it lol. Just mix roll timings and WD back OOS and maybe FH OOS. If you can react to her dash back then you could Dair OOS too I guess. Otherwise just memorize what happened last time, shield DI away unless she's super close then maybe in so you can try to shine OOS, and mix up based on what happened before and hope for the best lol.

 

[mrdoingboing]

Good job on the ditto man!

And yeah once you're stuck in shield against Sheik you gotta kinda take it lol. Just mix roll timings and WD back OOS and maybe FH OOS. If you can react to her dash back then you could Dair OOS too I guess. Otherwise just memorize what happened last time, shield DI away unless she's super close then maybe in so you can try to shine OOS, and mix up based on what happened before and hope for the best lol.

I hadn't even considered shield DI as a way of getting shine OOS on moves that would otherwise be too far away. That's a really neat idea. I hate to ask a super broad question, but are there any matchups where falco's OOS punishes significantly open up more by incorporating shield DI in/away to get better punishes?

Off the top of my head, maybe shield DIing in on Falcon's side B would allow a shine OOS punish rather than a dair OOS? Dair OOS is still really good, but at really low percent the shine would probably be better. I feel like there are a lot of unexplored applications of this, so I'll be sure to experiment a bit on my own time.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm not really sure since I haven't messed with shield (S)DI in much. I mostly try to shield SDI away and get away as I don't like being in shield as Falco since the position isn't super strong. I imagine Bones or someone else here may know more about that though.

 

[Bones0]

I'm also not particularly hopeful about Falco ever developing a good OoS game, even with shield SDI. Shine has almost no range so unless you move towards the opponent before shielding, and it's not even that fast to begin with. I don't think shield SDI will often make up for these limitations. If you're going to try it at all, the best place to start would be shield drop shines. The smash DI motion can naturally be incorporated into the notch shield drop method, and even if you're not close enough to shine, the fact that you got closer won't hurt you much because you're dropping through the platform anyway, whereas if you shield DI towards an opponent on the ground but still remain out of shine range, you are stuck in their pressure that much longer.

 

[SalaMenace]

This may be a stupid question, but how do you deal with a Samus that keeps using the down-b bomb? I played this Samus on netplay and I was beating it pretty consistently, I even got a 4 stock once. Then a few days later I play the same guy, and he keeps spamming down-b this time. I can never approach or combo because I just get hit by the bomb. Also with constant missles from a distance, it feels like I'm having to play a constant game of dodgeball, and it's pretty annoying. When we got FD I decided to just never approach and spam lasers as much as I could and that seemed to be working out alright, and then the guy just quit after the first stock, so I didn't get to see how well that strategy really worked. But I probably ended up winning like 2 games out of 15 that time. So is laser camp the strategy? Or what do I do?

Any general Samus tips would be appreciated too.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm not sure about the bombs but I usually thought there was a time where Samus couldn't get the bombs out or at least couldn't fade back any more, so if you pushed her to the corner then used platforms/FH/DJ you could threaten pretty easily I'd think. And as for missiles, you can shine reflect or Bair them(maybe other aerials too but I forget which).

 

[bboss]

Dr Peepee
I know you probably get asked this a lot, but in your opinion does Falco have any losing matchups (i.e. Fox, Samus, Puff), and if so, which ones? Thanks.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I am not sure he has any but prime potentials are Marth and Sheik. Fox is just so dynamic I have no idea. Every other character he beats. This is only at top level so for the average player these things may not be true.

 

[clowsui]

To piggyback off the current topic, I had a lot of trouble today getting stuck in shield vs. Sheik during a tournament set tonight. It felt like if I tried to do something like dair OOS to try and punish a spaced fair on my shield, I would just end up getting hit first by something like ftilt or jab. I thought about waiting for the supposed ftilt or jab, but I always was too scared of just getting grabbed and felt I should just do something instead. I'm not huge on rolling, but maybe that's the best thing to do if I feel like I'm getting super pressured like that? Shine OOS is obviously a bit faster, but I don't see myself being close enough to punish unless they go super into my shield with something like nair or dash attack. And I'd love to pre-empt a dair before they end up hitting my shield in the first place, but I feel like if I get caught by something like dash forward -> wavedash back I'll eat a full punish. Trading/getting outspaced by fair would also really suck. Is the best thing I can do in a situation like this to just hold shield and wait for a sloppy attack on my shield or even getting grabbed, then do what I can to mitigate the tech chase? Against a sheik that has reaction tech chases down super well, this feels like arguably the worst option I can choose. Sorry about how disorganized all of this is, I'm just a little lost despite how much thought I've put into it.

Dr Peepee Also thanks for your advice on the ditto the other day. I took some of your advice and whooped the guy that beat me last week. Felt really good, and I couldn't have done it without your insight

i'm always watching this thread...careful

you would always just take it shielding, no spotdodge or anything. try rolling sometimes. FJ OOS is very good against me especially since i think i had similar timings on shield too often (was nervous + just got done driving + haven't played vs bird in a while). i think WD OOS is underrated at lower percents near the middle of the stage since you can sometimes OS ASDI down vs jab

 

[mrdoingboing]

i'm always watching this thread...careful

you would always just take it shielding, no spotdodge or anything. try rolling sometimes. FJ OOS is very good against me especially since i think i had similar timings on shield too often (was nervous + just got done driving + haven't played vs bird in a while). i think WD OOS is underrated at lower percents near the middle of the stage since you can sometimes OS ASDI down vs jab

Sup dude! It was a good set for sure, I just want to get as much as I can out of the loss moving forward.

If I can catch onto the timing of grab and just hold shield as long as possible before that happens, I might be able to catch it with a SH dair or something like that. Overall I really wasn't paying too much attention to OOS timing, probably because I wasn't getting caught in shield much at all at the start of the set. I actually really enjoy the idea of it, since it makes my response to shield pressure a lot more interactive. Of course, buffer roll to center stage is def pretty good until they start catching onto it haha. I definitely didn't make the adaptations that I should have at that point though, so that's on me.

I also really like the idea of WD OOS and just buffer sdi down at low percent. I always forget how much worse of a character Sheik is vs. spacies when they're still at low percent, and countering a jab with shine would be suuuuuper dope. Dsmash or something like that could be really good too depending on stage positioning/percent, I feel pretty good about my edgeguards vs. Sheik. FJ OOS seems pretty interesting too, although I would definitely have to wait and see what kind of sheik I'm dealing with before going for that option. For some reason a lot of sheiks I play against really like nairing above my shield and waiting for me to hit my head on it.....It rarely works, but I guess it would beat this specific option.

Truth be told, I think one of my biggest issues I've been struggling with lately is actually just doing bad aerials on shield and getting shield grabbed. Idk why, but it seems to be sheik specific since I'm pretty good at getting low aerials -> shine pressure against the rest of the cast. Could just be that her massive shield is visually messing me up since I usually try to visually time low aerials instead of just committing it to muscle memory. Goes to show that I gotta keep practicing I guess.

Let's try to get some more games in at the Arcadian this week. We always have really good games and I think both of us could improve on the matchup

 

[Josniff640]

How do other falco's handle Fox/Marth/Falcon just outside of their wavedash/dash in range? For example, let's say my back is to the edge and I am underneath the back side of a platform and Falcon is on the other side of the platform holding center. I often find myself making bad decisions in this location. I often find myself in the situation where if I try to aerial it will be stuffed out with a nair that moves just slightly forward, to the point where if I were to CC they would still be spaced out of shine range. I can usually get away with full hopping but I still struggle to come back to the ground, so my problem still remains. I'll sometimes just run back to ledge and ledge dash on to just mix it up, but regardless I often find myself feeling supressed by these characters in this spot. There are even times where I have center stage, but still feel as if I am not in control of the situation. What are some other options I should be looking for in these situations?

 

[kaptinkillem]

How do other falco's handle Fox/Marth/Falcon just outside of their wavedash/dash in range? For example, let's say my back is to the edge and I am underneath the back side of a platform and Falcon is on the other side of the platform holding center. I often find myself making bad decisions in this location. I often find myself in the situation where if I try to aerial it will be stuffed out with a nair that moves just slightly forward, to the point where if I were to CC they would still be spaced out of shine range. I can usually get away with full hopping but I still struggle to come back to the ground, so my problem still remains. I'll sometimes just run back to ledge and ledge dash on to just mix it up, but regardless I often find myself feeling supressed by these characters in this spot. There are even times where I have center stage, but still feel as if I am not in control of the situation. What are some other options I should be looking for in these situations?

This is one of the situations where you're not really asking the right question imo. You seem to know the basic corner options (ledge, go to side plat, fullhop, attack out etc.). But really, being cornered is supposed to feel bad, it's a losing position for you. You know the options you have so you just have to mix those up. But really the question you should be more focused on his how to avoid getting cornered so you can not be in that losing position as much.

For being in center for this problem you'd probably have to be more specific to get really good advice. In general being in WD range and not having a laser out isn't a situation that is often very good for falco(especially vs marth), so if you find yourself in this situation it's often a good idea to back up and try to establish your lasers, rather than trying to force an approach.

 

[Bones0]

I agree with kaptinkillem. If they're just going to zone you when you're stuck in the corner, start lasering to force them to jump or shield. Depending on how they react to your lasers, you should have certain options open up to you. If they jump, you can try to laser/attack them as they land, you can jump to the top plat as they fall back down, or if they shield, you can move closer since they no longer have access to their run up grab or dash jump options.

 

[Josniff640]

I did word this poorly. It's more of just that general spacing I find myself getting confused, where we're both in eachothers face but they are just out of my range. However, not forcing the approach makes a lot of sense now that I think about it. I'm assuming that you all are meaning just wait out their pressure and just take a step back so I can laser if they don't approach/do a late approach, whiff punish if they tried to attack that spacing, or just try to escape via platforms and reset the situation. Defense options are my weakest point as a player. But so I'm guessing y'all suggesting I mix up my defensive options?

 

[Bones0]

I did word this poorly. It's more of just that general spacing I find myself getting confused, where we're both in eachothers face but they are just out of my range. However, not forcing the approach makes a lot of sense now that I think about it. I'm assuming that you all are meaning just wait out their pressure and just take a step back so I can laser if they don't approach/do a late approach, whiff punish if they tried to attack that spacing, or just try to escape via platforms and reset the situation. Defense options are my weakest point as a player. But so I'm guessing y'all suggesting I mix up my defensive options?

As a general rule, if they're close enough to hit with a SHFFL aerial, then they have to somewhat respect that possibility. If they're not respecting it, you aren't approaching enough. If they are NOT close enough to hit with a SHFFL aerial, then you should have enough room/time to set up your laser game. Sometimes you can be caught in no man's land where you are too close to safely laser and too far to hit them, especially vs. the fast characters. Work on avoiding this range and using options besides approach vs. laser. Full hop is a good example of an option that frequently works when laser won't and approaching feels unsafe. Zoning with AC bair and utilt can also be good if they're punishing you with short-ranged attacks when you're at this spacing (e.g. if Marth runs up and grabs, stuff it with a bair). Just think about what options they have at any given spacing and write down the top 2-3 responses you have for each situation. Watch high level matches to see what top Falcos do when in the same positions. Finding options that cover multiple situations is usually the best, and if you watch top players, most of their actions are accounting for several possibilities at the same time, not just trying to read which of the 100 options the opponent has to choose from.

 

[Nils.]

https://clips.twitch.tv/CoweringFamousSandwichHotPokket

Amazing recovery VS Peach. How have I not thought of this before?

 

[kaptinkillem]

Yo that's sick, I wonder how precise it is?

 

[Bones0]

It's pretty precise on YS. Either I'm worse at high angles than I thought, he specifically practiced those angles a ton, or (most likely imo) he has a notched controller. KJH and Leffen have shown off this recovery quite a bit due to having notched controllers. The other stages are significantly easier because you can start from further towards the stage.

https://twitter.com/spotdodge_shine/status/872581799679074304

 

[orvs]

https://clips.twitch.tv/CoweringFamousSandwichHotPokket

Amazing recovery VS Peach. How have I not thought of this before?

oh **** thats sick

hey guys i have a question for the fox matchup, because im trying to piece together a solid game plan. long post.
main questions are...

a) do you guys think shinegrabbing against fox as falco is actually worth it? can i have an example of when you use it, and why? i know there could be many but i'm open to all things, because right now i questioning how good it is.

b) is shield pressuring fox with the intention of directly converting from it worth it? (for example attempting to land a multishine hit to catch fox jumping OOS, or getting the shinegrab when fox is conditioned to hold shield as one of the main ways to get damage in this matchup)

my game plan vs fox while on stage is basically:

1. keep my spacing tight with lasers and dashes. mix it up sometimes
2. figure out when he likes to swing at me, and punish him by dodging the move and then attacking him, or by cc/asdi.
3. figure out when he likes to move forward and/or jump when I am in range.
4. if hes dashing away or jumping away too much, use approaching laser ---> grab accordingly (space around fox shine hitbox), or take my time closing the gap.
5. if i land directly next to him and catch him in shield at any point, shield pressure with differing amounts of multishines each time, then get out of the way. this is so that i can just do either #2 or #3. plus this would discourage him from trying to counterattack OOS with any move, or wavedash towards me.
6. occasionally throw in aerial-->shine-->aerial on his shield, with or without the fade away, so that i can do #2 or #3.


i explained that just to point out that i never shield pressure (or shinegrab) with the intent of directly converting from the pressure it provides of it because i never really found it to be all that worth it sometimes. but now im starting to wonder if shinegrabs should be added and kept in my game plan. the only time i can imagine using it is when my game plan kind of fails, and I need some way to quickly scare them or situationally to throw fox off the stage. i thought about using it for conditioning purposes throughout the match too (especially for later in the set), but idk, it feels weird. but then i see all the top falcos use grabs sometimes and its sick when it works out.

heres my reasoning for being hesitant with the multishine/shinegrab mixup directly for damage:

-if i land a multishine, okay, sweet kinda? sometimes can convert hard off of this. but sometimes he can di it very well, and make it impossible for a direct follow up. however, I still get a nice position.
-if i land a shine grab.. okay, cool. sometimes he can mess up his DI/not expect the throw which can allow me to get an easy combo starter. and taking advantage of reactions and fear like this is underrated. furthermore, even if they are ready for the throw and they di it well, im still in a pretty good position - getting a hit from this spot will take at least one other step/read, and the only downside to this is that I am sometimes susceptible to being figured out and losing this advantage by losing space or by getting hit back. the main thing that makes me iffy about trying to use shinegrabs is that if i ever choose to shinegrab and fox calls that out, then I am probably gonna get shined by him (and then at the very least I lose a bunch of stage and have to be ready for him bein close to me. at worst, he directly converts and techchases me). i sometimes think its a better mentality to mix up multishines/fade away aerials with the intention of figuring out what they do afterwards in response to my spacing and/or actions, because it plays around shine OOS and wavedash (towards falco) OOS counterplay from fox. if i hit him with a stray shine or aerial and it sets something up, great! if not, its cool because thats not what im hoping for anyways. like i said earlier, theres a chance that even if i were to land a shinegrab or multishine, it may not get me that much as opposed to figuring out what they do after pressuring them, and finding a way to hit them with a move that can throw off their di a bunch. doing the grab in this situation for me almost always ends up almost always being a multistep process to land a clean hit, where the move i use to land that clean hit may be predictable (thus being easier to di, and making me have to win more exchanges per stock?). and if i know that its gonna be a multistep process most of the time, i feel like i might as well stick to my multishines-->wavedash back and fadeaway aerials mixups game instead of grabbing anyways. like ppmd said in earlier posts, how falco lands the hit is important?

so yea i brealy shinegrab, except when im just trying to quickly scare someone and i dont care about the possible consequences for dishing out so many. but if im wrong or if there are other ideas about when to shine grab, there id love to know. when im thinking about other times that i want to grab, im only thinking of one other situation and 2 conditions have to be met.

1. i have to be in a spot where if fox does end up doing shine OOS, im not getting cornered after i tech. (which basically means i do this on a bigger stage, and when i have fox cornered at least somewhat.)

2. i have to be confident that fox is afraid of rolling in. because if he does roll, then now im the one in the corner and we all know that position sucks

..so basically when i think i can throw fox off the stage.

 

[Dr Peepee]

A. Yes because it mixes up the shine cue and could force them to act when they see it. So if you get a shine grab and convert, next time they may try to roll or shine oos and if you double shine you beat one option and at minimum stay safe vs the other. Pretty good.

B. Sure. I think you don't have to always go for it, but you also don't have to always avoid it. You're missing advantages in either extreme I feel. Seems like you kind of know this already from your writing though.

Hitting with stray hits and not converting directly is just part of Falco. You have to learn a bunch of weird possible positions where they could DI or not because there's a lot of ambiguity to these things. That doesn't mean it's not worth going for since you get damage, sometimes a better position, and many times good conditioning for easier hits if you can connect those stray hits even if they don't directly combo. Throws it can be trickier and sometimes you should just throw for position, especially if you think they're going to be able to react to it(you can always throw for positioning then and play the better position though which is good). For stray hits though it can be different since it's much harder for them to control exactly where they end up and the surprise factor is still there so if you practice this and they don't you still get an advantage in a sense.

 

[CPU1000]

Hi this is my first time using smashboards :D
I'm a noob falco that heard ppmd was answering questions on here and I selfishly decided to take advantage

So basically I feel relatively uncomfortable in a lot of situations in the falco-falcon mu and I kinda wanted to outline some of the key things that I've been struggling with and some of my ideas that I've come up with to deal with them, and hopefully anyone who's knowledgeable could advise me.

First and foremost I kind of feel like certain falcons that I play will specifically opt to do a full hop or a full hop + double jump mixup every time they get shot by a laser at a certain mid-range. This situation isn't super difficult to deal with in my experience when I play on a tri platform stage (my thinking is that it's easier to challenge falcon's full hop directly with my own full hop aerial if i have a top platform or a decently high side platform to land on?), but it does become sort of tricky on like final destination or even pokemon stadium. The big things i try to employ on these stages are jump + instant dj -> double laser (one high and low laser) when falcon is slightly further to try to discourage his jumps and then bair (ac or just any bair ) to stuff his approaches on the ground. My feeling is that it seems more difficult to contest falcon's full hop by shooting a laser -> getting directly underneath and reading it with a short hop upair then it is to do the same to a fox full hop. Am I just not executing it correctly? Or am I right in thinking that Falcon's full hop + double jump mixups are trickier than fox's because of his drift + fast fall being better? Also, beating falcon's full hop options with falco's own full hop options feels distinctly quite difficult. Again, I have to imagine it has to do with his really strong drift + his hitboxes being so large right? In general it feels less useful than otherwise to challenge falcon fh with falco fh but i'm not sure if that's the right assessment.
One other option I've seen used before is for falco to run under falcon's full hop and hold down to try and CC his aerial or option coming down. I think the big issue that I have with this option though is that the falcons I play almost always just come down with stomp whenever they see me run under them (incidentally this makes getting under falcon and utilting him harder as well since falcon's stomp hitbox reaches so far below him and trading with falco's utilt seems to usually benefit falcon in most situations). I'm feeling like I must be missing a step here; what do I need to do to encourage the falcon to not come down with stomp after full hopping so that I can run under them and CC/utilt his other aerials?

The other major situation is when the falcon is grounded and playing more on the ground level with short hop approaches. In this situation, I'm not quite sure when approaching nair is better than retreating bair. I know s2j has said in the past that mango will like, specifically time his nair approaches to hit inbetween the 2 hits of falcon's own nair. This seems strong for sure but in the situation where a falcon is flying at you with a nair, doesn't a well timed ac bair also stuff the approach just as well? It even seems easier in execution then timing a move to hit specifically in between the 2 hits of falcon's nair. Obviously the nice thing about approaching nair is that if falcon holds shield then you can start up pressure on him and/or read his option after the shield, but it can be brutal if the falcon fullhops over the approaching nair and lands on you with an aerial. Am I missing anything here? What are the pros and cons of both options? Also, am I wrong in feeling like falco's bair seems strictly better than his utilt vs falcon in most situations? It feels like it lasts longer and it's got more range and it even feels a little safer/harder to punish. Falco utilt feels only strong if you hard call out exactly when and how the falcon is going to approach the falco with a short hop nair. But if you're off even slightly it just completely whiffs and very often gets punished.

Another key thing that's become an issue for me is getting extended punishes on falcon. It kinda feels like the standard pillar combo (dair -> shine -> dair -> shine etc.) at the 0-50ish % range isn't super guaranteed with any sort of decent sdi up or sdi left/right. Specifically, shine on falcon from 0 to like 10 especially feels like a tricky place for me, because almost every falcon just immediately sdi's the dair I do after hard left or right and shields (don't even think dair -> utilt links at that % either? Seems like the shield just comes up before the utilt hits them if the falcon is at low enough %). Obviously I've thought of doing dair -> grab but that opens up a whole new can of worms since I have no idea about how falco's uthrow interacts with captain falcon lol. One thing I have seen ppmd do vs s2j at Apex 2015 is nair after the shine: https://youtu.be/f8yKWtB2nOg?t=253
Not sure how reliable it is but it seems good at the very least.

Sorry for the wall of text I'm still new to this stuff but any help is greatly appreciated :3

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah so for FH, you want to FH Bair him whenever possible. He can't beat that option when he's above you at the angle Bair works at. You can often FH Nair/Dair him as well but there are some chances for him to hit you out of these. Just dash forward pivot FH/DJ if you want to set up the Bair and you can do this on reaction. If you don't get set up in time, just laser his landing it's not worth messing with Utilt and all of that against stomp and his drift. You can challenge his platform landings though with shine or aerials/Utilt depending on stage so just experiment with it. You can bring in examples if you want.

Bair is better at beating moves but worse at comboing than Utilt. Bair is better at beating Nair on average, but Nair will give you more damage and it's possible to time it to get between Nair hits if you're close enough. Of course if Falcon IS just going to fly at you then yeah you're better off Bair/Utilting.

I'd need to see the shine situations, sorry.