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Falco Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Falco' started by Dr Peepee, Nov 27, 2009.

  1. Yort

    Yort
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    Alright so I picked out a few clips of this type of situation, first thing I noticed was that the frequency of a falco fh wling to platform to get out of a losing laser war seems to happen much less in top falco dittos. I assume this is the case becase top falcos are a lot more pro active in the laser war and it seems they get bogged down less by lasers in general and fight more. But, I did manage to find a few.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V0cl-x3LsU#t=6m31s
    So in this clip, druggedfox fh wavelands after a laser on shield and the attempts to drop through platform and punish. So here, the first thing that comes to mind is that because kpan did an approaching laser after the initial laser he had more room to push frame advantage, as he took a lot of space in the time that sami was full hopping. As sami is in his waveland lag, kpan is already out of lag. Because of this frame advantage and his position, Kpan is able to instantly put out an uptilt or back air and stuff a potential fall through aerial, while also being able to cover sami jumping to top platform or to center stage by dash back full hop bair etc. He could also sh below the platform and dj bair to hit sami for dashing etc, or maybe set up a shield pressure sequence if sami decided to hold shield.

    If Kpan didn't do the approaching laser as sami was jumping away, he wouldn't have access to as many options to cover samis potential escapes / attacks. assuming Kpan was center stage and did an in place laser, sami would be in waveland lag while Kpan was center stage, allowing kpan to potential dash away, dash towards the platform and setup a fh bair potentially, but neither of these options give kpan as much room to push the frame advantage. So I think the approaching laser put kpan in a better position assuming sami decided to jump out of the laser war. Anyways, do you think I missed anything here with what Kpan decided to do and how he could have pushed his frame advantage here? Assuming he did the approaching laser and was directly below sami, which isn't always the case.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWQ4gtM5d0g&feature=youtu.be
    Here is a second situation

    In this one, I jump wl to platform and my friend goes for laser aerial, because he was in lag from the aerial as I was out of lag from my waveland I got the frame advantage from this exchange. I could have drop down punished him I believe but I am not sure if I could have done it completely on reaction. I decide to jump off turn around laser when I also could have just dropped through laser while he was in lag. My question on this one then is if I could have set up a "reaction point" during my waveland to where I could have recognized his aerial and done a better more direct punish of drop through aerial / turn around laser instead of pre preemptively jumping off like I did.

    Anyways, I think that if you jump away from a laser and they do approaching laser they have a lot of time to push frame advantage while if they do approaching aerial they lose frame advantage. If they do in place center stage laser they do have frame advantage but it's not as direct and ripe for punishes as approaching laser, it just allows them to freely re position while the other falco is in lag for 10 frames on the platform.

    If they do laser dash back i'm assuming neutral might as well be reset.

    If I am playing as the falco who is jumping onto the platform then I should probably pay attention to how they move after the laser I jumped out of, and decide what to do to hopefully win the laser war / take frame advantage back for myself.

    Also, why do you think laser wars in top level falcos are so much different then low level falco dittos? Do you think top falcos just know how to push the advantage from winning lasers harder or do they know how to escape a losing situation better, or a combination of both?

    Also, lastly but unrelated to the laser wars but related to the stuff I was asking last week.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm2LKbO5evo#t=7m15s
    Here you do a full dash back as mango is falling drifting in with a back air, and then you decide to do another dash back and dash forward grab him as a whiff punish. This was on reaction correct? You saw his drift and decided to dash again out of the end of the dash back? Just wanting to confirm my understanding on this a bit more and I remembered this example.

    Please let me know how to think about these types of situations better too, any criticism is welcome.
     
    #23961 Yort, Jul 6, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
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  2. Dr Peepee

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    That first situation actually showed me something important(I haven't actually sat down and looked at this position super deeply myself, just played it). That first laser Kpan shoots gives him enough time to be directly under Druggedfox as he's coming out of waveland lag after lasering in. This means you can move forward and set up for lots of different things like dash in pivot sh/FH or pivot wd to threaten Utilt as examples. Normally I would've thought you wouldn't have had time for that but maybe you do since that was pretty far away. Being directly under Druggedfox is fine for Kpan here since he could get a good punish out of Utilt'ing a Dair from the platform due to the percents. However he could just as easily shield or move away at unfavorable percents to trick and also set up Bair if he doesn't bait out the aerial through the platform. I could say more but what you've said works some too so I'll just move on.

    To your second situation, maybe based on conditioning, but in a vacuum no. Go frame by frame as you waveland and look for the part where you're first actionable. He's SH'ing in and pretty close to you. If he DJs he could immediate or late aerial, and he could also waveland back. These options mean he can open up landing on place and working utilt or SH/FH Bair as well. However, if he is going to usually SH aerial then you could react to him SH'ing at this point and punish him. After you see the aerial come out, you could mayyybe shield drop Bair/Dair him but I kinda doubt it. The laser you did would've worked better if you hit the FF on it so you didn't trade lasers as well. Looks like you could have run off towards the edge and Bair'd him as well but you would be pressuring at that point and toward the edge so it could be an awkward position for both of you. Worth keeping in mind though. Also if they don't at least slightly move forward with laser, you get an easier time coming back down from the platform with laser or setting yourself up to counter their approach Bair OOS or take laser turnaround Utilt or dash shield aerial shine OOS or whatever(I guess more chances to PS too but Falcos don't seem to do this). Anyway yeah the point of this is it's usually best to at least put some pressure on the opposing Falco when you win the laser battle but you have different ways to do it. As for why top level Falco dittos look different, it's because Mango and Wes both tend to solve losing the laser war with Bair OOS(a great option) or they will just FH away if they're cornered without necessarily going for platform. I imagine if Shiz and maybe Momo get up there you could see this happening more often(though Shiz might instead opt to DJ laser land onto the side platform which keeps you from coming up in front of him but is ultimately slower it feels like).

    I'm not sure if I knew this at the time or not, but you can't fully react to drifting when the other person is high up. You kind of trick yourself if you wait that long. I tend to pull back pretty quickly after seeing the FH so I can be out of range when I actually get to react to drift. That's pretty much what you saw happen here. I did spend a lot of time learning to beat this because Mango bodied me with it so much for a long time.
     
    DogLifeGood likes this.
  3. tsmfoxmaster

    tsmfoxmaster
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  4. Squidster

    Squidster
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    Hi PP.

    1 Macd’s Peach Mixup

    Vs Peach, Macd does this mixup that’s kinda boils down to Eat laser > dash attack and shield laser > full hop Float Nair FF. He has other mixups like wd oos Dsmash and staying in float after the full hop float and eat laser > jab and stuff but I find that the dash attack and the quick fh float Nair are the ones that hard to account for and react to. Thoughts on how to cover these options? I can Bair fh Nair thing and I can shield the dash attack but then I’m playing his mixup and I feel like theres something better.

    2 PPMD vs Armada Sktar3 dash dancing

    I notice vs Armada at sktar3 there were long periods of time where you DD way longer than I expected without shooting lasers at all. Is this because Armada was fairly defensive so you felt like you didn’t need to lock him down and dash dance kept your options more open and ready to punish things? Is it because Armada powershields things and you were trying to bait him to do something before you laser? Or because Armada is threatening to float above and punish your lasers? Curious about your thoughts on this.

    3 Lasers close to your opponent

    One final thought is that I had this “realization” recently that seems a little counter intuitive which is that the closer I land to opponent with a laser the safer I feel (maybe barring certain powershield things.) Like my opponent has to account for more things so if I approaching laser > dash back and the laser was right next to my opponent I feel like he HAS to respect my options which means him picking really aggressive options like just running forward out of laser is so much less likely. Obviously this is matchup dependent and you can still break down options further away but it’s more that I’m starting to understand how to make use of my threats without having to explicitly use the options themselves.
     
  5. Bones0

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    @Yort

    1st Example:
    I feel like you may be overcomplicating it, but maybe I'm just not seeing the point of a lot of the observations you're making. When I watch it, it seems to boil down to this:
    1. KPAN won the laser war, winning frame advantage. By the time KPAN had shot a second laser, both players were aware of this fact. However, I think KPAN should have moved forward with the realization that he had frame advantage instead of merely laser in place.
    2. From this point, KPAN is too far away to directly threaten any of Sami's options except approach (which would be nearly impossible with the laser in his face). His aerial won't reach on the ground, and it won't reach even if he had hard read Sami's jump to the platform. He's limited to focusing on taking space.
    3. KPAN dashes in with a SHL, but it's too late. Sami realizes how far away he is and knows he can safely WL to the side plat.
    4. KPAN lasers under the plat, falling right into his trap, but because Sami saw a shield, he dropped down to do a late aerial. Had he done an early aerial, I imagine it would have beaten KPAN's weird bair OoS (maybe he realized Sami would go for a late shield pressure string, not sure).

    So yeah, I'm not sure this is a good example of WLing to the side plat being good vs. advancing lasers because KPAN initially misspaced or misjudged how close he needed to be during his first laser. I do think it's a good escape option though. Getting laser frame advantage in the ditto seems amazing if you're within SHFFL distance because the opponent has to respect a lot of stuff, but if you're even slightly near the edge of your SHFFL range, they have too much time to move. If they are sure that you can't reach them, you'll have to set up another laser/positioning battle before getting an actual hit, which is fine, but you obviously want to limit the number of times you're forced to outposition them before you get an opening. It's pretty hard to outposition a Falco perched on a side plat though.

    I think this principle also holds true for your second example. If you freeze right when the laser hits, you can tell that you don't really have anything to be afraid of, and that even a super hard read on the WL would be ineffective. Especially on Pokemon Stadium, where the plats aren't very close to the ledge, they almost feel like advantageous positions because you have so many safe retreat options and can avoid their lasers until you see fit as to drop down with a laser or aerial of your own. The threat of being uaired from below is no less real than the threat of being naired/daired if you were on the ground, but at least on the plat you can jump away; by starting your FH higher up than them, it's that much harder for them to read and hit you with anything.



    @Squidster
    I've actually been writing up a post on lasers and how they vary by characters. I still have to absorb more scenarios to get a better picture of what's going on, but I watched PP's Sktar set as well as a couple of your sets vs. MacD since they were the most recent good Falco vs. Peach, and this was my general impression of Peach with regards to the things you brought up:

    1. Eat laser > DA gets beat by immediate laser, approach, shield, dash back, and FH. Basically anything except dash dance seems to do just fine. Some options merely avoid and reset while others can actually whiff punish. This will obviously depend on spacing, but I trust you can visualize well enough to know when each will work.

    Shield laser > Jump float aerial has counters, but they're a little less black and white, especially if they ever decide to mix in fairs instead of nair. Things you can do:
    - Jump up to meet her in the air and attack her preemptively (jump shine or aerial; AC bair can work as a more defensive zoning option). This is especially good vs. fair because of the startup, but if you commit as soon as you see her shield the laser, you should be able to hit her before her float's set up properly.
    - Dash back/run away. Because of the fair mixup, you may have to run further some times than others. This can also turn out bad if they expect you to do the defensive AC bair and try to wait you out. They might just end up chasing you right into the corner with a single float if you keep giving up space, expecting her to land. If she just does the quick float aerial though, you can try to time a bair to whiff punish, WD back into her and shine, or scout out a desperation DA after she lands by shielding. This option feels heavily dependent on how much space I have to work with. If she's trapped in the corner, why not back off a little, but if you're center stage on BF, you'll run out of space real quickly trying to avoid a fair.
    - FH away. Like with pretty much any scenario, laser to FH is pretty unpunishable. As long as you have a high top plat to work with, I feel like this may be an underutilized option by most Falcos. Even YS and FoD's top plat can be hard for Peach to reach on reaction. This option might be able to punish the eat laser > DA option you mentioned as well, but it will depend on timing and spacing. She at least as to be worried about the possibility of you coming down on top of her unless you were really close and she DAed super early.
    - Run up shield. As opposed to just sitting still and shielding for the DA, I feel like you could move forward after a laser and still have time to shield the DA, but if Peach happens to jump float, you can react to it and jump shine her, or if you can't react in time, her aerial will probably hit earlier than usual and give you a shine OoS opportunity. This is the one I'm least sure about since most Peaches I play rely heavily on FC fair to get over lasers, not nair, which is so much faster.



    2. I noticed that not only did PP dash dance a lot vs. Peach, but most Falcos do as well. The threat of floating over lasers with a fair is so real, that lasering twice in place is very risky. You see this same sort of effect with Fox who can FH nair/drill over lasers to counter them. Once you're near their range, you can't get a second laser out for free. Vs. Fox, even the first one is usually a risk because his FH nair/drill range is so large and if he calls you out, you're getting hit. Peach is a little slower so not only is the initial laser more safe, but the second laser is less necessary. It's nice to have to beat out options like eat laser > DA, but because of Peach's speed, Falco can actually use movement to avoid her options unlike with characters like Falcon and Marth who you need to limit with lasers just to keep up.



    3. I used to think lasers close to opponents were really good, but in the past few months to a year, I've come to the opposite opinion. Firstly, I think the PS threat is very real. A lot of people have become comfortable with running PS grab vs. Falco, and it's one of the best ways to close space and punish him for lasering too close. If you get the laser on them up close, you're definitely in good shape, but I think most of the time the laser could have been replaced with an aerial to either get a hit or set up shield pressure. The worst part about lasering close is it usually requires jumping forward with a laser. When they're across the stage, that's no problem, but I've almost entirely stopped doing advancing lasers when my opponent could potentially meet me in the middle with an attack of their own (e.g. Peach/Sheik DA, Marth/Falcon dash forward aerial). Sometimes I will take this risk when I get the sense they'll dash back because if you're right, you take a massive amount of stage and keep them at frame disadvantage, but I try to default to lasering in place and relying on the threat of my approaches in order to dash forward (which lets me set up more laser pressure).
     
    #23965 Bones0, Jul 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
  6. Dr Peepee

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    no because then I'd have to do it for mad people and there's not a good way to fairly do it. if there's a specific time or couple times in a video you want me to look at and have questions about I can do that.

    Sup dude

    1. Something really obvious that comes to my mind against both is to shoot then dash forward spaced immediate Dair. Safe on shield and would also beat dash attack I'm pretty sure. You could also just dash back/WD back after lasering but how effective this will be is dependent on how close you are. WD back is likely to help you hold down vs DA and should get you out of the way of nair so that's probably good if you want to reset, whereas dash back is better if you have a bit more space and want to counterhit more easily. I don't know the starting position for this mixup and I just checked the tourney stream vod and didn't see you play him so it's hard to say more than that. I guess you could laser Ftilt sometimes too? I really like Ftilt vs Peach when she's more cornered she can't do too much about it so it's at least somewhat useful then.

    2. UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

    Yeah I know which is why I'm always hesitant to recommend that tourney or Apex 2014. I still had a lot of wasted movement in those tourneys. Like I can argue it's about his defensiveness and the matchup, but really there's no excuse for that. I honestly liked my smashers reunion set 1 GF games where I win more but the meta is ahead of that. Still I think there's useful stuff to pull from in both sets.

    Edit: Oh! Just rewatched me vs Armada game 1 Evo 2014. That's not bad either.

    3. That's exactly right! Falco with a laser out close to his opponent is a win condition. Falco close to his opponent without a laser out is his lose condition. I tell people this all the time when I teach them the matchup or help them learn Falco it really helps you get a feel for the effect of the laser and frame advantage, as well as Falco's threats from lasering or not lasering.
     
    #23966 Dr Peepee, Jul 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
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  7. Squidster

    Squidster
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    @Bones
    I think you’re severely underestimating how good approaching laser is. Mango uses the option a ton which inspired me for a time to kinda spam it to explore it and I had a ton of success with it. Can’t give them TOO much credit and always account for yolo running forward with hitboxes or running powershield grab.

    Consider that you can “wiff punish” things from far away with approaching laser and guarantee they won’t powershield, you can also do slight timing mixups like no ff late laser which almost always makes them miss the PS. You can stop running powershield grab with something like a laser in place > dash dance > approaching laser and their run forward will be stuffed by the first laser and they won’t be in a good spot to do it to the 2nd one. Powershield is only REALLY a big threat if they do it close enough to punish you without having to wavedash.

    I also don’t think you can replace it with aerials most of the time. Laser is longer range (obviously but I think lasers that hit from just a LITTLE further than max Dair / Nair range are amazing). Laser has no landing lag which means on “wiff” you get to act out much faster. Laser has no hitlag for you which means your timing is consistent if it’s not clear whether or not you’ll hit them. Lasers can’t be ASDI downd, they true combo close up on hit and they’re positive on shield. There’s a lot about laser that’s quite a bit better than aerials.


    @PPMD
    Dope, just rewatched smashers reunion set 1 and evo 2014 game 1 which I hadn’t really rewatched because I knew you lost but I forgot how good it looked until the last 2 seconds lmao, I see what you mean about the dope looking sktar dash dances actually being wasted movement. Interesting for sure.

    Next questions is about juggling on platform stages, I’ll use Sheik as an example for this one since I’ve had some problems here. Juggling on FD is wayyyy easier since you can do things like run under > shine or walk under > utilt and they’re inevitably coming down eventually. On platform stages I’m starting to realize (or just theorize) that I’ve been doing it wrong by trying to shark from the ground and looking for Uair / Bair as they come down on a platform. I would walk in the direction they’re drifting and try to full hop Bair from the correct spacing if I can set it up. But her Nair / Dair are kinda hard to avoid if I don’t perfectly read the drift and the top platform is kinda high and stuff. I’m starting to think it’s better to shark them from on top of the platforms or even specifically from the top platform since you can basically cut off a bunch of drift options and use Utilt to cover the top platform itself. If you have time to set it up, would you agree that juggling from the top platform is better than juggling from the ground?
     
  8. Dr Peepee

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    Between the two sure I suppose but it would depend on her position. I tend to like being either under or on the side platform and push her toward a side. Also Sheik's air drift is really bad and her FF isn't great either, so you should really be FH/DJ Bair'ing her to death lol. Nair should always lose and if your angle is decent so should her Dair. More than either starting position I'd just practice the situation(s) and see if you can start hitting more Bairs on her when she's high up. It's super good vs her/Marth/Peach/Puff and changes the matchup a lot.

    Edit: oh I should probably add that doing lots of DD isn't inherently bad, but the way I did those in that set/tourney was. That's a topic for another day I imagine.
     
    #23968 Dr Peepee, Jul 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
  9. tHe Chise

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    This a shield pressure analysis that I did of PPMD a while back. Every meaningful interaction that occur when Hax shielded was recorded:

    Civil War VI-PPMD vs Hax Money-PPMD Shield Pressure Analysis

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogwOyIDyehQ

    1. PPMD does a Dair to high on Hax’s Shield

    2. PPMD throws out an U-Tilt and covers himself with a shine

    3. PPMD Dash Attacks on Hax’s Shield

    4. PPMD Bair Shine Hax’s Shield

    5. PPMD uses Jab>Run Away Laser

    6. PPMD uses Shine Grab

    7. PPMD shines Hax Shield, but doesn’t follow up and gets Nair’d OOS

    8. Whenever Hax Power Shields a Laser

    9. PPMD goes for raw grab

    10. PPMD doesn’t punish shield, rather the action OOS

    11. Hax Spot Dodges PPMD’s Grab, then punishes PPMD’s High Dair.

    12. PPMD Lasers Hax’s Shield baiting Hax to roll. However, PPMD doesn’t punish it

    13. PPMD’s Laser baits out a spot dodge from Hax which he punishes

    14. PPMD goes for nothing fancy. Just Safe Aerials and Shines.

    15. PPMD Nair Shines Hax’s Shield, baiting out a Spot Dodge. However, he doesn’t punish it and attempts to go for a wave land which he misses and gets punished for it

    16. PPMD does a Laser>Grab

    17. PPMD Does unsafe Bair on Hax’s Shield

    18. PPMD does pressure from afar to zone Hax out

    19. PPMD does safe lasers, aerials and shines on Hax’s shield that are hard to punish

    20. PPMD uses drift away Bair to pressure Hax on a platform and uses this move because it must be hard read to punish

    21. PPMD uses Laser>Jab and force Hax to roll, but he doesn’t punish

    22. PPMD uses Nair that Hax jumps into

    23. PPMD uses Laser>Grab

    24. PPMD tries to punish shield with grab, but Hax rolls away in time

    Things to take away:

    • High Dairs or Unsafe Aerials are bad

    • Dash Attack Just Sucks (Unless 110% positive it will hit)

    • After hitting a shield with shine, always follow up

    • Punishing a shield isn’t always the best choice. Sometimes, it is best to punish the action OOS which could net you the stock as Falco rather than the shield directly which could get you shield grabbed

    • Power shielding Falco Lasers counters them extremely hard. However, if they are only trying to power shield them, they are obviously not approaching.

    • Using Lasers to fake an approach can bait the opponent to using a punishable defensive option.

    • Lasers can be just as good if not better for shield pressure than Aerials
     
    Jayners likes this.
  10. Squidster

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    @PP

    While I def need to improve at this, do you still think this is the best option when they’re at low %s? Or should I just be actually getting combos at low % so I shouldn’t be finding myself needing to juggle lol
     
  11. Dr Peepee

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    If you rise into them with strong hit Bair you can often Bair them again before you land/they can hit you at many early percents, but maybe not all. Edit: You can probably jump into Sheik with FH/DJ Fair at really early percents and kick her a lot lmao it's cheap. You can also Bair and drift away if you're worried about it and at least get a good position afterward. Pushing them with Bair threat and jump shine waveland down on side platforms during their landing lag is also great at lower percents to continue punishes and you can push them there with Bair threats from a more middle position.

    Obviously comboing is way better but sometimes a given combo startup(position and percent and their readiness to DI/SDI correctly) will let them get out of a combo after a hit or two and then you have to switch to this method of damaging them. Also in matchups like what I listed above you're going to have situations like this a lot out of combo starters so it pays to learn it no matter what.
     
    #23971 Dr Peepee, Jul 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
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  12. AnonymousID

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    How do I edgeguard luigi? Right now I just laser when he's far off and then try to grab the ledge when he up-b's but I don't really know what I'm doing. I imagine ledgestalling would be good but I'm scared of getting hit and dying or something.
     
    #23972 AnonymousID, Jul 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
  13. Dr Peepee

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    You can go out with bair/dair if he's higher up and especially if he's in side B lag. If he has to up-B, then if you get hit you can dj Dair him out of it or just dsmash him. If he could maybe grab the edge after hitting you on the edge you can always drop shine dair him. You can also dsmash his up-B. Also be sure to grab the edge just a little before his up-B could go off(after he DJs or cyclones). If you see a specific situation in a match you need help explaining that might be easier if this doesn't work for you =p
     
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  14. AnonymousID

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    Hey thanks for your reply it helped me actually start thinking about my options more.
    I do have a lot of questions though.

    Can you explain what you mean by the DJ Dair thing? Is it when you're ledgestalling and then you get hit?
    About shine-dair/bair will it generally always work when luigi's in the right spot or can he DI out/dodge the shine? Also if Luigi's really far below the edge can I just grab the edge right after dj/cyclone and have it like always work since he has to immediately up-b or fall too low?
    Finally is there any reason for luigi to get hit by downsmash other than them being lazy/not knowing how to sweetspot? I feel like they could sweetspot all the time and idk how to make them want to up-b early. I'm thinking just having my back to the edge and threatening wavedashback but not sure how effective this is compared to everything else.
     
    #23974 AnonymousID, Jul 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
  15. Dr Peepee

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    Yeah so like if you're hanging on the edge and his up-B hits you, it barely stuns at all so you can often just hit him back before he can grab edge.

    Luigi can tech the shine Dair from shine or from dair. So obviously it's better to make him use his up-B but you can't always get that. If you go for it right after you grab edge and he has time to FF or up-B early he may get around what you're doing but honestly I'd say just test it out to know for sure. You'll know it by feeling then.

    I think Dsmash hits their sweetspot but Luigi can tech it so that's not always great(not much he can do out of tech though).
     
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  16. Bones0

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    Hmmm, that's interesting you think they're so good. I must be missing something because I feel like my lasers are better than ever since toning them back, and I asked some other people and they also said advancing laser to land right on top of people is good. I was trying it in friendlies and I definitely get hit all the time trying to move forward (I was specifically playing vs. Marth, and just getting stuffed by his fair/nair OoS). Maybe it's the opponents I am playing against, but they all struggle way more with stationary lasers than advancing ones. I still dash SHL ofc, just not in situations where something like Marth's AC nair between lasers would hit me. I wait until they are forced to back off from stationary lasers or the threat of my SHFFL approach, and then I advance forward with a laser. Trying to laser so that I land right next to them frequently causes me to get hit before I get the laser out, and even when I do get it out, the only real threat I have is grab.

    Can you give me any examples of how you whiff punish from far away? I'm not entirely sure what they could be attacking with if you're so far away that they won't hit your dash jump laser, and if they are attacking, I'd rather whiff punish with an aerial anyways. There are situations where I punish zoning by lasering and trying to set up pressure from that, but I'm not sure if that's what you mean by whiff punish.

    Powershield hasn't bothered me since I talked to Sami about it. lol The only problem with PSing that persists is when I try to advancing laser and they run up shield to meet me in the middle, and they PS right in front of me where the only thing I can do to avoid their punish is SDI the laser away (which sometimes isn't even enough).

    Lasers can't be ASDIed down, true combo on hit, and are positive on shield, but outside of their superior range, I don't see how dair doesn't accomplish all the same stuff. It can't be ASDIed down and true combos on hit (into way better punishes). Dair isn't positive on shield, but usually when you land with a laser on top of someone, you're grabbing or starting shine pressure. If you land with a dair, it's negative on shield, but has enough stun that you can get a shine out, which lets you lead into grab or any other pressure variant the same as if you had led into it with a laser. The biggest part of doing aerials instead of lasers when advancing like this is I don't have to worry about them moving through me to cross me up. Marth can WD through you and tipper if he anticipates an approaching laser, but if I do an approaching dair he gets hit, which limits him to backwards movement.

    I think these two games on FD are pretty representative of how I'm trying to structure my laser pressure, so if you can lmk any specific instances where I could be adding advancing lasers, I'd appreciate it. I take a couple stocks to realize I'm not using enough lasers, but around the 14 minute mark is really where I start to put them to good use.

     
    #23976 Bones0, Jul 9, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  17. Freddo2796

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    Hey PP or well anyone that could help me!

    I consider myself more of visual learner and with this in mind i was hoping you could provide me with any tips or tricks to practice SDI? despite being aware of the mechanic and being able to notice it's influence in certain situations i have difficultly bringing it over into my game play. It feels like there is a disconnect between seeing SDI and doing the input itself.
    to remedy this i'm sure i could use 20xx but i'm not exactly sure how to set up in an appropriate manner to practice it. Oh and if anyone could show me any clips of sets where sdi has been a signifcant factor i'd greatly appreciate it.
    Thank you for taking the time to read this.
     
  18. AnonymousID

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    I'm really bad at FoD because the platforms just mess up my lasers and etc and I feel like its by far my worst stage. Any tips for maneuvering around the stage and using it to your advantage?
     
  19. Dr Peepee

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    I know you can use the 20XX playback feature to record actions for a while, so you could have the cpu do combo starters and maybe a followup and practicing SDI'ing at each point. Besides that you can always just practice a bunch of stuff with a friend, which I find to work better.

    You don't get to shoot a lot on the stage because of lower platforms and very small size. If it's higher you can laser under the side platforms though which helps. Getting center is pretty important as is not wasting actions since there are so few places to go and you can't really back up/get out of the corner here like you could on pretty much any other stage. It may also help to learn to threaten from the varying side platform heights(drop down/runoff lasers or sh in aerial vs drift back vs waveland back vs laser....etc and how it varies from SH in on the ground).
     
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  20. FE_Hector

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    Just to let you know, the lowest static platform height gives you an NIL if you try to SH under it, but anything higher than that and you're okay to shoot under.
     
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  21. `Rival

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    More of a player vs player question than a falco question, but since falco is the only character I play seriously here goes. Long post, there is a tl;dr at the bottom.

    So when you guys have a read on the opponent’s movement do you guys always try to punish it? Or is it better to see what they do before and after the movement when they may be in positions that are better for combos/kills?

    An example I have is when fighting fox. When I know fox is gonna jump to the platform I have a few answers. So at low percent I use shine because I’m pretty sure it’s the only thing that’s 100% safe if I hit them. If they are mid percents I’ll go for second hit of upair underneath the platform as a tech chase to set up for a dair offstage (if I don’t think this will work I just go for other aerials that will set up combos/techchase).

    Anyways, at low percent, sometimes I know fox is going to jump/full jumpàaerial to a side platform after being poked or shot at (or for whatever reason I know he’ll be on the platform and he won’t shield), and I am directly in range to intercept his movement to the platform with a shine.

    So a few things happen here when I jump and shine them properly:

    1. They DI all of my moves poorly and I get the kill. Can’t count on this against good players though.

    2. Sometimes they DI the shine the wrong way and I get a small combo. After this, I get nice stage position or an edgeguard scenario. getting them offstage is good, but a lot of times they are able to grab the ledge before I’m in a position to potentially kill.

    3. They DI sharply offstage setting up an edgeguard scenario that usually ends up with them recovering (not sure if I could improve my rate of killing them here, because it feels like I have to hard read them to get the stock). If they hastily recover onto the stage because they got baited or they are scared, then I can usually dish out a decent combo/send them back off. The disadvantage here is that if they get to ledge, they can abuse invincible ledge dash. So.. I have to read what they do after they ledgedash back on.

    4. They di sharply into the stage, usually ending up on top platform if there is one. In order to follow up, I’d need a read on what they do after. Kinda like 5:10 in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aHB44B944k&t=301s

    In all of the scenarios above, if they aren’t too hasty, a good portion of the time it ends up with me having superior stage position, but the combo/kill potential isn’t the strongest. In the end i have to make more calculated calls to kill them.

    So knowing that most of the time it ends up with just stage position, I’m wondering if it’s worth going for?

    Should I avoid the scenario altogether and try to land a combo starter from the center of the stage to get more guaranteed damage? Because if I hit them with a combo starter at center stageish, it allows me to get guaranteed hits. Like uptilt --> shine-->____. Or shine---> ____. Even if I start a combo in this position and they end up on a side platform, it’s easier to follow up and keep the string going, because I'll be underneath them ready to react.

    The con for this strategy is that it gives back so much freedom to fox and I potentially increased the amount of steps it takes to land a hit (and it only gets worse depending on how patient they are on that platform). Also, by me positioning myself in certain sections of the stage I feel makes my intentions really obvious. Like.. if I’m standing with my back turned, it’s obvious to them I wanna uptilt/bair an approach. If I am dash dancing while going in and out of the range of their nair/drill off platform, then it looks like I’m waiting for them to whiff a move - and like I said, if they are patient, they just won’t deal with this (maybe making it better for me to have just taken the advantage when i had it). I mean, there are some ways to really encourage them to swing at me, but they still don't have to.

    This is just one scenario when falco has to make a call between going for the guaranteed thing that has no direct/strong followups, or refuse engaging that scenario in order to get something bigger later. Another example is when you have an opponent at high percent, and they are waiting patiently in shield (for me personally it happens a lot vs peach). In this scenario, I can opt to grab, knowing that I have to shark very well to get the kill. Sometimes I’ll have to do this several times before getting the right read. Or alternatively, I can try to bait them to do something OOS and/or go for a shield poke, which is riskier sometimes.

    So tl;dr : In a lot of scenarios when my opponent is very limited, I can choose to punish them, but then the guaranteed reward after that is relatively small. Or I can allow them to have more freedom in order to get them into a position that is stronger for my kill setups/combos, but I have a greater chance of making the wrong call and end up putting myself in a bad position or lose the advantage that I obtained.

    In the end, both styles of doing things have multiple steps in order to close a stock. One limits the opponent more and doesn’t allow them to get their footing. But the other way arguably allows you to understand their intentions and behaviour patterns more.

    What would you do? What do you guys think?

    Would you take guaranteed hits knowing that most of the time that it nets you good stage position but not a kill?

    Or would you disregard scenarios that have low kill potential, and always aim for set ups that are very powerful?

    Would you do both?
     
    #23981 `Rival, Jul 20, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  22. Dr Peepee

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    I could speak generally about this, but it'd be kind of abstract so I'll just use your example.

    That shine I hit Colbol with was on the wrong side. If I hit him when I was between him and the center he wouldn't have been able to go to the top platform but he was just barely behind me so he went super far. The side you hit shine on is really important.

    It sounds like you need to work on your edgeguarding. I was going to save talking about this until after I started doing it, but Falco can do what Leffen does with Fox. Turn with your back to the edge. If Fox comes in hard with side B you can Utilt/Bair it. If he does up-B you react by SH out into dj Dair or shine turnaround Bair. Learn how far out you can go and make it back. This alone will solve a lot of problems, as well as learning to laser so they can't go to the edge if they start up-B above the edge, or how to do edge grab Dair/shine/edgehop dair or bair mixups if the up-B is low(among other things). If you can hit your edgeguards you'll make them not want to DI offstage which turns into nicer combos for you.

    That alone will change a good bit so I'll see if that's good enough or you have other questions.
     
    FE_Hector likes this.
  23. Lucid41

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    I am just a small boy and as that is I have a lot of time on my hands. With that i'm trying to practice as much as I can but how can I work on consistency, I feel like some days I can play 95% but other days I can lose to any fox that plays well. What should I work on to work on this? Or is there any thread about this someone can link?
     
  24. Dr Peepee

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    If you can tell me what those Foxes are beating you with, I can help. Otherwise I can only assume it's a mental/physical thing and you should keep your health/mind right by doing stuff for that daily to keep your level of play higher.
     
  25. Lucid41

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    Yeah honestly I have started working out and eating healthier and sleeping regularly and I can see my play improve. Also what do you personally do to help yourself get in the zone? Music helps me personally but i could see that maybe some breathing exercises or something along that line would work well and help me idk though obviously this is just a small part but melee is such a mental game though.
     
  26. Lucid41

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    Also it triggers me so much that such a top level player is here and no one is taking advantage of it lmao.
     
  27. Dr Peepee

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    I meditate, think of my goals and why I play, how much there is to learn, how exciting it is to play my opponent and how skilled they are/how I can learn from them, and visualize succeeding/enjoying myself playing. Breathing exercises are good too. There are many kinds so it might be better to just let you look it up, but if you want some I've learned you can ask me too. Music is good as well but I don't personally use it before playing so I can't comment on it.
     
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  28. Lucid41

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    I got that melee itch where I can see how much there is in this game but I also feel like I cant truly comprehend how big it really is. Thats whats driving me right now lol also hey whats up PP lol definitely a top influence on me.
     
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  29. Lucid41

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    but yeah i'm going to look into different breathing things. While your here im gonna try and get as much as i can. I read some old posts by you saying how you use the first stock or two to really find out your opponent i'd like to know what your doing at lower percent to bait out a reaction, throws/DI/oos options etc anything is appreciated
     
  30. Dr Peepee

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    As Falco there's a simple example. How does someone respond to a laser or two? In a given stage position at a given percent especially early, what are their best counters to what comes next? That information should all be maintained so you can keep pushing them on those habits as time goes on. People's responses to lasers are only so deep(and for the most part not that deep).
     
  31. Lucid41

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    Okay yeah i guess its like laser with a purpose
     
  32. Lucid41

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    So also i just played a game with a peach and he was able to really dictate the pace of the match with turnips and powershielding my lasers, what would you do to help put falco back in advantage in that situation?
     
  33. Dr Peepee

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    If Peach throws a turnip at you she probably did while already in the air. You can shine the turnip back at her or just go to a platform and reset the situation(or move back if possible). If you shoot lower lasers it's hard/impossible to PS, but you can also shoot a lowish laser than SH over the returning laser with another laser or aerial to get them coming oos.

    Also if you want to add extra thoughts onto an existing post you can just edit it. Don't wanna be taking up too much space since it's already a pretty big thread people will look through =p
     
  34. Lucid41

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    Yeah okay ill start doing that lol, but okay ill have to work on laser heights more.

    Also still on peach what is the correct DI for D-smash I usually get hit twice by it would it just be up and away or what idk?
    Also instead of asking about every mu is there a falco mu thread against other top characters? I don't wanna waste your time asking about small points of mu's lol.
     
  35. Dr Peepee

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    I just DI up and get out of Dsmash. Maybe you're just reacting late? You can always test it.

    I had an old Falco matchup thread but it's sorely outdated. I'll do guides or make a thread for matchups sometime I imagine. Most people don't ask as many questions as you do about them, but even so I feel like usually people get a lot out of watching me answer questions for others so I don't mind it either way.
     
  36. Lucid41

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    Yeah okay cool, Ill def be looking out for those matchups in the mean time ill just search this thread. One thing i feel that would be essential is thinking about the game when you cant or dont have the time to play. I wouldn't really have any idea where to begin in this but i'd like to know what you think about when you aren't playing melee. i know this is a large question but anything would be cool.
     
  37. Dr Peepee

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    I imagine situations I haven't seen before and think of options and how to win them repeatedly, and I also think of situations I have done before but maybe have or haven't practiced and run through those and see what the options I often do and don't see look like. Sometimes I just think about new ways to see my tools. Sometimes I question my foundation knowledge, asking things like "what if this way to tech chase I think is best is not the best?" Sometimes I think about motivation and how to motivate myself or others more, and the others part is useful for competing as well.
     
  38. Lucid41

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    Thanks great answer, I have always kinda done that but seeing it put into words it makes more sense now lol, maybe that doesn't make sense but whatever. On the topic of motivation I currently have a close knit group of friends but most of them don't really see the game like this. They want to get good and see the idea of being better but they wont really play when i'm not there, and so they don't really get much better and kinda plateau which means I have to play by myself a bunch or use netplay. I mean I cant force them to play and try and get better but how would you go about motivating others in a situation like this?
     
  39. AnonymousID

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    Hey PP, I was wondering if you could take a look at how I try to analyze the game and see if I’m on the right track or if i’m overcomplicating things. Also could you describe your process as well or send a link where you talk about it in the past?

    So like one situation for me might be dashing toward a fox shffl range away at like 20% while fox is standing after getting hit by a laser. (I remember you saying how your moves carry certain threats so I try to keep this in mind)

    From here I try to think about every unreactable option as falco which might be dair/nair/grab/dash back etc. Then I think about what fox can do in relation to my options. So like to beat dair/nair he might hold shield, dash away, jump, roll. To beat grab he might spotdodge/shine/aerial/roll/ or jump. And to beat dash back he might just run up grab me or something.

    So now with all these options I try and see which is the most rewarding for me and for fox and how it can happen. For me landing an aerial is the most rewarding since it can lead into shield pressure or a big combo. To land an aerial fox has to either try to run forward/stay in shield/nothing but good fox’s will probably not do these options a lot since the threat of an aerial is so strong and the escape options are fairly hard to directly punish. So now I’ve basically found out that I can’t come in with aerials often since fox’s will tend to do something to avoid falco’s aerial. Knowing this I can just wait for fox to do an escape option like jumping/dash back and try to punish it by attacking him or taking space. (I try and think of specific counters to specific options when I’m sure of what they will do and more general counters when it’s more ambiguous.). However fox can just run up grab/aerial me if I just dash back/wait to counter fox’s escape option, but this means I can aerial him if I read it.

    At this point I have a simple rock paper scissors scenario whenever I run up to fox which is to either aerial or dash back and try to react to one of his escape options/go for a hard read. I can also just refuse to play out the situation by retreating/jumping etc and try to play it out when the fox isn’t expecting it since it’s hard to make a good decision when you’re not expecting to make one.

    I also try to consider all the new situations that can arise from the current one. One example might be I dash forward -> dash back and then I see fox jumping straight up. Now this is a entirely new situation with new options and new ways of threatening fox. Another thing that could happen is maybe I mess up and aerial and fox just jumped. At that point I pretty much lost the exchange but It’s still good to know what to do when things don’t go as you expect.

    I don’t think like this too often but when I do, I do feel more confident in game since I know what to expect and I start seeing things that I can punish/adapt to. But the problem is I feel like melee has way too much stuff and it can quickly become overwhelming. Another problem I have is how to actually practice these scenarios if you don’t have a friend to do it with. I know with the new 20xx you can practice against one specific option but idk how well it translates in game since you need to react to many things that can happen.

    TLDR: Melee feels super complex and I feel like spending a lot of time figuring out situations is the best way for me to improve and I’m wondering what to look for and to what extent do you analyze. And even if I know everything that could happen, applying it in game is a completely different challenge and I’m wondering how to effectively do that. Also I only play good people pretty rarely so it’s pretty hard to try out new ideas. So yea my understanding of melee/how to improve is pretty hazy so any advice would be of great help thanks.
     
  40. Dr Peepee

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    Right now it seems more like they care about playing with you and the bonding experience than progressing in itself. It might be useful to have them do some training in person when you're with them so they can see how to do it and also link that bonding experience to the joy of improving. Just my first idea but of course I don't really know the situation so I don't know if it would work for sure or not.

    Well, you pretty much answered your own question. When you think this way you feel more confident because you get the feedback it's working. So yes, you absolutely should keep thinking like this!

    If you can netplay test things with someone, or get more of a local scene going you'll have people to test stuff with. While 20XX isn't perfect it gives you ways to test specific counters and you can build knowledge with that information. So if you learn a counter to a common approach option but it doesn't beat everything, maybe you switch at some point to a more moderate option coverage to handle their counter. Then you'd need to test this in 20XX. You could theoretically build your knowledge to test vs people this way.

    I think if you keep going and developing your ideas you will figure it out. The most important thing is to keep going from the looks of it.
     
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