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Falco Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Falco' started by Dr Peepee, Nov 27, 2009.

  1. Dr Peepee

    Dr Peepee
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    FH is pretty useful, rolling is actually not too bad(doing one or the other out of shield is pretty good), going to a platform, staying center then picking a side as they come in so they get one shot at most to hit you....are some of my go-tos. I think they're pretty good.
     
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  2. roboticphish

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    Hey PP. It was good to see you on Armada's stream last night, you're looking a lot healthier and it's great to see you're still positive about everything. Keep up the hard work, we're all here for you =)

    On a Falco-related note, there were a few things you were talking about last night that generated some questions from me. If you've got some time and are interested, I'd love to hear your take on them.

    1. You had mentioned specific, directed practice in the lab as part of your 'triangle of improvement' last night. I know you've previously talked about shadowboxing being a huge part of this, but from the few times I've tried it, I found the concept very difficult to wrap my mind around. How exactly are you supposed to structure lab practice to be ready to react to the opponent's choice of mixup with one of your own? In tournament, I frequently find myself in situations where I need to pull out a mixup I've never used before, and I find that's the biggest barrier to efficient lab practice as you've described it. The whole point of a mixup is that your opponent should be caught off guard by it; how can I thus practice preparing for these mixups when I don't know what the opponent will be going for?

    2. When I was getting started, one of the pieces of advice I was given was by Vist, who told me to always play friendlies the way I would play in tournament. That way, when I got to tournament, I would be less affected by nerves as I had practiced that situation in that way many times, as opposed to trying to change my approach to the game depending on the kind of match I was playing. Yet I saw both you and Armada advocate for the complete opposite last night, and you recommended using friendlies to practice specific things that you would then incorporate into your tournament playstyle. As an example, is this the kind of thing where I would communicate to my playing partner that I'd like to practice SDI against Samus' Up-B a hundred times in a row? Basically, lab practice with a thinking partner? Or is it more the case that I would go into a friendly specifically looking for situations where they are going to up-B, and looking to practice finding and reacting to those instead? Do you think one is more beneficial than the other? Also, do you have any tips from transitioning from this mindset into the 'put it all together' mindset required for tournaments?

    3. How does speed factor into Falco's ability and gameplan? I am thinking in particular of Westballz here; Vro and I were talking about him recently, and he mentioned that Westballz is one of the few opponents in the world that can just out-execute the person he's playing against. I know that it's not the end-all of Falco's gameplay, since Wes loses frequently to opponents that are thinking about the game on a more fundamental level than he is. But he also finds openings in top-level gameplay that would not be found without his speed. I guess the question is this: at what point does the difficulty of Westballz-esque tech skill become necessary to find openings against top players? Or conversely, when does it become a liability? What is the role of lightning speed and high APM in Falco's gameplan?

    4. Lastly, I have a question about dealing with consistency. Not of my own, but of my opponent's. I have, up until now, been a player who tries to adapt to the strategy my opponent is using, and I expect them to mix up that strategy when I demonstrate I can adapt to it (because this is what the top players I study do). So, let's say I push a Marth into the corner and I have picked up that he's going for a grab to get a gimp. So I'll read that with a SH waveland back to bait out the grab, then Fsmash to kill him. Great, I think. I've beaten that option, I killed him for it, and now I expect him to react in adaptation to the read kill I just got. So the next time I push him into the corner, I anticipate that he'll either try to jump out of shield or roll in to center stage. So my plan is to run up to him, shine his shield, and wavedash back to bait out those options (yes, I know that's a bad option, but I'm trying to prove a point with a hypothetical). But as I run up to him, he just grabs me. I completely discounted this as an option and got punished for it, because I guess I gave my opponent too much credit and anticipated he would adapt. This happens frequently to me across many characters. I'll nair a low-% peach and get cc dsmashed, but I wasn't expecting that to work because I had been dairing in the same situation previously. I'll try to shield a dair approach from fox after I get a huge combo off of a cc shine off his nair approach, only to get nair shined on my shield. Etc. I don't really understand how to know when the opponent has adapted and is about to try and mix things up, versus when they haven't adapted or are deliberately doing the whole "repeat the same option three times, he'll never see the third one coming" thing. Do you have any advice on how to deal with this issue? It's especially prevalent in tournament, when people play with nerves and get stuck in habits more frequently.

    Sorry to basically write you an essay, lol. But you are the authority on Falco, and it would be silly of me to not at least ask. Anything you can provide would be appreciated. Again, it was great to see you're still doing well. I hope to see you at an event soon!
     
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  3. Dr Peepee

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    Thank you very much! I'll get right into your questions.

    1. The way I teach shadowboxing when I work with people isn't through actually teaching shadowboxing. You don't start there imo. You start with the basics, like wavedash or SHL. You think about the purpose of each action as you do it and the effect it has on your opponent. Then you begin to combine these techniques, so in this case WD and SHL and now you have to consider how the combination works and also where this combination has holes. It is in these holes you find your own adaptations before you're forced to make them, and it also helps you begin to restrict your opponent's options so you can narrow down what to expect. This is not easy and there may be other ways, but this way has been the best for me and some I've worked with.

    2. Ah maybe I misspoke then. People need to have a play to win mindset they train in friendlies absolutely, most people do that. But the less discussed notion is playing to learn. Many people don't like this as much since you aren't getting to apply everything/win all the time but it is very important to do if you want to play to win. Playing to learn is about running drills like practicing SDI on Samus up-B or playing neutral only matches or just playing and experimenting with giving your opponent stimuli in neutral and seeing how they respond and just considering that instead of how to punish and all, then maybe you switch to tech chases or combos later. If you play to learn well it feeds that knowledge into playing to win and eventually you can even somewhat combine the two which is really fun. I think that way is best.

    3. This is a difficult question. Speed is useful to everyone to an extent because you need to be able to surprise your opponent and create openings. Some people also have a naturally higher pace than others, as Wes does, but that does not mean everyone needs to be fast like him to succeed. I would have the same opinion if he was the undisputed best Falco because he represents himself and those who have a higher tempo primarily. It's also important to note that Wes plays only to outspeed his opponent and I honestly don't think Falco as a character can really do that. His slower jumpsquat and slow run speed/smaller dash range really hurt his ability to threaten many ways at once. He can threaten a lot, but I've noticed it often takes some work to get in even with an opening for Falco. My solution is to gain partial advantage then get the full hit in the next, much easier neutral exchange. Wes' solution is to close the gap anyway and just try to overwhelm the opponent to avoid this ambiguity. I personally feel it's an incorrect way to solve the problem but he has some very good results so at least some of it must be right.

    4. This is a question I had myself sometimes until I started doing deeper analysis. What I discovered is that people say a situation and another are the same, but because of different intent/lack of practice people approach a similar situation slightly differently, thus giving a different visual/audio cue to the opponent and breaking some of the conditioning. In your own example with Marth you baited with a SH at first, but then expected him to feel the same way about running in, which is not a SH(I would also guess you move a little differently before Nair'ing vs Dair'ing Peach, but maybe not). Now it is true you can discourage moves overall in a type of situation, like cornered Marth. But there is another element at play here besides what I've already mentioned. That is non-adaptation. Some habits work often enough or the understanding isn't there so players keep doing the same things because of the reward/it's a habit. This happens even with top level players, though so to me it seems more of a human issue. Gaining information from threatening is important to determine when players have truly adapted vs when they seem to be stuck in their ways. For this reason and because of your own potential variance, practice of setups is vitally important so that your cues are consistent.

    Good questions! I hope this helps.
     
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  4. `Rival

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    Hey @Dr Peepee, I have a lot of questions that kind of expand on this. Also I'm super willing to hear what everyone else has to say too.

    1. When fighting players who are very analytical/adaptive, they will probably know when you are trying to gather information from them, especially when you threaten them/do feints. Therefore during a match, they may mix up:

    1. Their options when faced with a specific scenario
    2. How often they engage a scenario
    3. How often they try to prevent it
    4. What they do to try to engage it or avoid it
    etc etc

    So in a situation like this, when it is hard to identify their intentions because they are mixing it up very well, would you opt to go for a read in this scenario to gamble for an advantage? Or would you not engage the scenario, try to shift their attention to something else (but potentially lose this opportunity, and possibly put yourself at a disadvantage), and then attempt to check this scenario again later when a lot of other things in the match could have affected them? Would you invest more time and effort into trying to find out their intentions even if they seem to have no true pattern?

    I hope these questions are clear enough for everyone here haha

    tl;dr would you play rock, paper, scissors if you had no idea of what option they favour? or would you try to make them focus on some other game and then try to come back to this same game of rock, paper, scissors later (where new situations may or may not have influenced their choice now)?

    I mean I have come up with my own answers to some of these questions, but it'd be super cool to hear what everyone else thinks.
     
    #23764 `Rival, Mar 17, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  5. roboticphish

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    Thanks for getting back to me so quickly, I'm not sure people wholly appreciate how cool it is that you're sage-ing out all this information all the time.

    1. That still sounds very abstract and I'm not sure I follow. But let's use my example of a cornered Marth to see if I understand it better than I thought. So if I have a Marth in the corner and I am exactly at center stage, then I do an advancing low SH laser. This forces him into one of a few options. A) He shields, which then puts him into the subset of options he has out of shield. B) he jumps, probably to the side plat, then putting him into the subset of platform options he has. C) He tanks the hit and moves afterwards, or D) Counter. So by firing that SH laser, I force him into that set of options, from which he has a different subset he can choose from. Since I don't know which of the four options he's going to choose, then my shadowboxing looks like laser -> dash dance at the range where his A, C, and D options whiff (netting me a punish), and his B options are reactable and force him to deal with my bair wall. I then practice that spacing depending on whether Marth is right at the ledge, or slightly far enough away that he can dash/wd back. Does that sound right, or am I missing something? Also, do you have any videos of you demonstrating how you structure shadowboxing/what would it take to do a 20 minute skype session to learn how to structure it? (I know you're healing, don't be afraid to say that can't happen!)

    2. There was definitely a miscommunication then, but I'm sure it was more my failure to understand than it was yours to communicate. Luckily, my friendlies almost always look like that, I'm very experimental while still being cutthroat. I think I'm in good shape on this front :D

    3. Almost all of this makes sense, except for one thing. You mentioned that Wes plays to outspeed his opponents and that Falco's not really capable of doing this. Yet among comparably-skilled players, Wes excels versus the three fastest characters (Fox, Falco, Falcon), and struggles much more versus the slower ones (Marth, Sheik, Puff, Peach, and ICs). The latter 5 all have ways of poking holes in Falco's offense (and Wes' in particular), but the spacies in particular are even better at poking holes in Falco's offense and yet they're his strongest matchups. I suspect this is due to the strength of his punish game on the fast fallers, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this disparity.

    4. I think this might tie in with your answer to question 1 and also alludes to a larger issue I'm having. Namely, if I'm always going for mixups, then perhaps I'm struggling more with my inconsistency than my opponents' after all. I think having a safe and more methodical setup game will go a long way to reducing that variance in those situations. Figuring out how to structure shadowboxing will probably be a tremendous help in this regard.

    Anyway, thanks for your responses PP. You're the best!
     
  6. Yort

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    Hey pp, i know there's an overload of questions right now but I feel like asking this; it's an easy one.

    Earlier in the thread you responded to a question about dd vs shiek being good either long range or close range, and to avoid dash dancing at a mid range generally. I was wondering if this applies to marth as well? Recently in my analysis I feel as though this has been true, either stick to dash dancing at a long range or up close, as risk of dash attack or grab etc is too high at a mid range, and if i'm at a mid range I should stick to trying for good lasers or transitioning into a better space.
     
  7. Dr Peepee

    Dr Peepee
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    Well first of all, I don't really recommend viewing decisions as all reads or all reactions. As you learn setups you begin to balance read to reaction ratios if that makes sense. Second, your post assumes that you cannot also influence the situation because your opponent can do so much, but remember the opponent is responding to you as well. You have an enormous influence over what they choose to do and while the opponent will have their own tendencies, you can figure them out quickly with enough understanding and practice. Remember that people aren't truly random and all have patterns, even the very best players. The goal becomes more about trying to diversify your patterns/make your patterns as detailed as possible so even if they're solved they can't be beaten, and about learning your opponent's patterns and exploiting them quickly.

    Now, people may try to avoid situations if they lose there once or twice and I don't want to discount things like this, but I'd just remind you of your ability to gather that information and play on that fear.

    1. If the Marth doesn't react to your startup quickly enough to Fsmash or dash attack in(depends on the stage whether those will reach) and doesn't try to powershield then yes those are more or less the options. What you are describing is shadowboxing vs someone in the corner and that is certainly a very valuable part of the game. It kind of works in the way you describe but you will notice I mentioned Marth responding to your startup, so the way you prepare the laser is important. Did you just laser in place before coming in? Did you dash back(does he think you will retreat) before lasering in? Decisions such as these affect how the opponent will respond and position before the laser comes out, giving you more information and reducing the chance of being caught offguard.

    I'd like to readdress your initial question quickly. You seem to kind of know this already based on your following comment but said plainly, you're right that the opponent will have to deal with you if you make good plays. Sometimes in your search for good plays you discover rules about the game. These rules will allow you to adapt in new situations because your rules should cover broad parts of the game instead of just the individual situations you studied. In this way you can adapt your existing setups to a new situation, or develop one that's a bit different on the spot if need be.

    As for structure, I think combining laser with another action(in either order) is an easy example of something to practice. Dash back to laser forward is something Mango and Westballz both make plenty of use of, so practicing that to understand why it's so good and to not drop frames is really important. Eventually you may be able to see how the opponent responds to your dash back before committing to the laser forward and this is when you will begin to see your influence at work. Truthfully I'm not sure how to suggest it to non top players if I'm being honest, since I only learned about shadowboxing after becoming one. I do think that starting out practicing setups is incorrect regardless of level though, and practicing the basics again to get a good feel for them and understand them better is an important first step that anyone can do. From there experimentation with combining actions can be pretty helpful and engaging if one is alright with putting in the legwork. Maybe that is a more useful way to put it.

    3. That's a fair concern. Falco isn't capable of overwhelming his opponents with speed at all times, but there are times when he can and also he's just faster than Peach/Puff for example so he can outspeed those characters(by a meaningful bit). I think the floatier characters can all slow Falco down more than Falcon/Falco can, and most Fox players don't or can't play protracted defense against Falco. Besides all of that, most of those other characters outrange Falco whereas Fox/Falco/Falcon do not, making it easier to beat out moves on the approach. I guess I should clarify that the top tiers are all better overall vs Falco most likely but playing slower defensive games is much more common by force of design for the characters Wes struggles against. His punish is somewhat a factor as well but he has said numerous times he doesn't even really like fighting Fox much so that would leave him good vs Falco and Falcon, one of which is a ditto and the other is a pretty bad matchup for Falcon.

    I wouldn't recommend closer DD and would recommend more mid DD against Marth unless you've put him in his shield. Him being able to jab makes closer range DD much less viable.
     
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  8. Bones0

    Bones0
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    @Dr Peepee

    Can you break down your analysis of spacie fights when one is on top plat? I have asked a few people about this recently, and from what I have gathered, this is my understanding so far:

    1. Run off FF aerials and Shai drop aerials are unreactable. Run off dair takes 11-17 frames; shai drop dair takes 15-18 (YS-BF top plat height).

    2. If Falco is properly feinting his drop down and coming down with lasers instead of aerials, Fox has to respect the space under top plat. Unless he calls out a drop down laser with a read (not only reading a laser instead of an aerial, but reading the timing and spacing), he cannot punish Falco. In practice, most Foxes seem to just accept this and DD under a side plat, waiting for Falco to do a bad aerial (which is extremely common lol).

    3. If Fox is properly feinting his drop down, Falco has to respect the space under top plat. But unlike Fox, however, Falco can call out drop downs with lasers so that he doesn't have to commit to a read (example). He still has to hide under side plats out of range of run off FF aerials, but lasering to cover this option seems to generally force Foxes to come down on the other side of the top plat and fight through the lasers on the ground.

    4. Fox can run or jump from the top plat onto the side plat to pressure Falco from above if he's just camping underneath with lasers. This seems moderately risky because Falco can jump shine him, but he can't hit it on reaction unless Fox jumps to the side plat as opposed to just running off. If Fox gets set up on the side plat, it's definitely bad because he cuts off Falco's vertical escape options as well as his horizontal ones (FH to top plat and run towards center stage), all while threatening to drop through aerial his current location at any point.

    5. With all of the above in mind, I'm wondering, am I/the community at large undervaluing the utility of going to top plat? It seems like it generally forces players to give up their stage control, and even if it doesn't lead to direct followups when you come down, you come down in center stage with them essentially in the corner. There are a few possible explanations as to why this is the case, such as: I'm idealizing Theory Bros. too hard and in practice players are able to make low risk, high reward reads on drop downs. OR It's too hard to get to the top plat in the first place when you don't have stage control, since both spacies are more than capable of reactively hitting players jumping to the top plat if they already underneath it.
     
  9. Dr Peepee

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    I think spacies on the top platform is awesome for them and woefully underused. They have options like what you describe and Fox also has dash SH through side platform with shine mixed with landing on the platform into option, etc. Super good. Falco can counter Fox's stuff a bit by waiting with Utilt primed under the side of the platform and sometimes moving back/in if Fox wants to drop through to space Bair instead of runoff. Fox doesn't have that luxury but can shark Uair really well and also dash away and then get pressure/a punish pretty easily. I don't know the frames for any of this but I do know the mixups going directly down and also using the side platform(wavelands off of it or lasers off of it or landing on it then SH'ing/falling through, etc) give the spacies so many options that it is worth exploring that dimension of control. I think this is only really useful for Falco against himself and Fox primarily, but given how dynamic/prevalent those matchups are it is definitely worth learning.
     
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  10. CallMeMars

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    Falco questions for PP:
    1.) How do I properly study/learn the neutral game. I feel my moves are a bit too random and don't have enough thought put into them. I get opened up very easily vs sheik/marth/peach in close range situations that I feel like im guessing on who has the advantage.

    2.) What are the best learning styles/strategies/techniques to learn Falco. I think my biggest problem is that when I watch matches I see only what things are good or what is bad. I don't see why's or how they were able to do something (mostly referring to reaction or read on the last part) unless it is blatantly obvious. What are your tips to learn a matchup more in depth? I saw your comment above about asking why someone got hit. Are there any more analysis tips?

    3.) Do you have any tips on breaking habits? I can recognize that something is bad and I shouldn't do it, but in game I don't think as clearly, and I seemingly will do the same thing no matter how many times i try to kick it, before I remember that its not a good idea.

    4.) Do you have any recommendations on the kind of matches a player that struggles at low level locals should look at? I want to only watch your (ppmd) games but against what kind of player? Should I study you against people my level maybe in pools? Players you destroy outside of top 20? Games against the Gods?

    5.) Will I improve the quickest if I only play Falco? I've switched around in different matchups before but I'm starting to feel as I would get so much better as a player if I properly learned the match-up and my flaws in it.

    6.) Any other tips you can give to an up and coming Falco main that struggles at locals?
     
  11. Dr Peepee

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    1. Take every action apart and study it independently. Figure out what a laser is and how to use it. Same for aerials, and so on. Then when you put the actions all together you'll have a better idea of how to threaten. Neutral is too broad for me to go into useful specifics.

    2. Just ask questions. Why did this person DI this way here when it got them killed? What made them decide to do an aerial oos right out of shield stun instead of waiting? Questions like these give you more insight and eventually you can see patterns.

    3. Practice doing it another way.

    4. Look at everything. Top players, your own matches, matches of people around your level, and slightly higher or lower are all great learning places.

    5. If you only main Falco yes, but you can play other characters to learn how they work outside of tourney some.

    6. Patience vs floaties and Marth/Sheik, shine grab, Dair tech chase on a platform is really great damage and it's pretty easy with practice.
     
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  12. StrayDog

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    There's a yoshi player who has been terrorizing my local. The first time he showed up he wasn't that good, but he has rapidly gotten way better and now I feel like I actually have to learn the matchup. I don't really have any other yoshis to practice against--they're really uncommon even on netplay and this guy is really shy and doesn't want to play friendlies with anyone outside of the venue. If ANYONE has any experience they could contribute that would be super appreciated.

    I have a 100% win rate against him on Yoshi's Story (the story is that he gets knocked directly into a blast zone, nothing but net no edgeguard required,) but on any other stage I can't take his stocks fast enough and he lives to preposterous percents. I thought FD would be a good stage to take him to, but it turns out that the majority of openings I get on him are due to baiting out his defensive options and evading them with platform movement into a quick punish, and on FD my approach options are much more linear and this guy is ****ing eggscellent at parrying and trading with yoshi's armor. He is supernaturally good at executing Yoshi's defensive options, but mercifully not very good at responding to feinted approaches. I think FD will be a good stage in the future if I can figure out more tricky approaches on the stage, but playing against this guy has made me aware of exactly how one dimensional my FD play really is. What do you guys do against really turtly players on FD? Laser camping seems like the obvious answer but he's also amazing at powershielding lasers. He doesn't usually get anything off of it, but I can't make him approach with them either. Also, if harassed enough he will do Yoshi's egg stall which I am having trouble dealing with, especially on FD where I can't feint going to platforms to make him toss eggs there.

    This character seems virtually impossible to edgeguard due to his double jump. Even if I manage to break his armor he usually side Bs or down Bs to the stage or the ledge and accepts whatever hit I get on him to reset the situation. He seems so heavy and never dies. I'm also having trouble figuring out a good combo flowchart on him and usually resort to 3 piece combos like dair shine dair and then move towards him ambiguously to try to bait out a panic nair. Before you respond, yes I'm aware that Falco can shine spike Yoshi, but it seems extremely difficult to practice and execute and I don't think it's actually a great option because I don't see many Falcos actually doing it successfully in the matches I've watched. This guy really likes down B'ing to the ledge and I can sometimes catch him by putting a bair in his path, but outside of that I have no idea how to threaten his double jump. I also am having trouble figuring out good kill setups on him and usually just try to fish for wavedash back dtilts or laser dtilts. I want to experiment more with raw fsmashes or punishing baited defensive options with fsmashes because Yoshi's moveset seems pretty bad and I think I could trade with pretty much any of his moves except for maybe his fsmash.

    Also, does anyone know how to combo escape DI against Yoshi? His up air actually seems to have an absurdly narrow DI spectrum and if he catches me DIing down and away with a nair it's just owari da for falco.
     
  13. Jay417

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    @Dr Peepee
    Just as you have, I live in an area where I don't always have access to high level play, and I would like to ask some questions if you don't mind. For starters, how do you go about analyzing matches? Do you have a personal checklist when you are analyzing? Another topic I would like to discuss about retaining information. How can retain more information in a match without becoming flustered and losing it? This is a really big issue with me that I hope can be solve quite easily. Thirdly, how do I maintain focus? I become startled during matches; this feeling makes me go into autopilot. And lastly, how do I properly control space? I want to make sure that I am consistently threatening when the opponent moves into my ranges. Thank you for your time and knowledge. I hope you feel better.
     
  14. Yort

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    I play against a yoshi that is successful vs falco. A lot of his success results from his parry and defence game as you mentioned, along with a nasty punish game. Lower level falco is more susceptible to this because they approach too recklessly or are just too predictable in general.

    Mess around with empty hops, empty grabs, if you do dair shine late enough it beats parry.
    beating his parry baits will help you a lot, just be creative and patient versus it, it will definitely throw him off once you start beating him for it. It is likely that he is over reliant on it.
    Find his patterns for his parry baits, my buddy wheat will always crouch and wait because it's easier out of crouch, etc.
    Another one he likes to do is wake up crouch and if you're late to the tech chase he will parry.

    I think FD is good versus yoshi but it is in a similar sense to how it is good vs luigi; his punish game gets buffed but it is much easier to manipulate him.

    He's not very good when he's directly above you, I recommend more anti air utilt as well, it also often hits him out of dj because yoshis just love using their double jump to mix up approaches.

    oh this is really important, learn his tech traps, if you beat his tech traps you will be a lot more successful. Some examples being him doing up angled ftilt right before you land to mess up your tech, platform stuff; i'm not certain of the specifics but I'm pretty good at avoiding wheat's tech traps intuitively.

    CC is interesting but remember it loses to his fair. Not sure how effective I got with cc things.

    here are some vods:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF2w-pOsdMo (ppmd vs amsa)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfEZwJ2TfGY (yu vs amsa)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k0lShN_-2o (yu vs amsa)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc_AXi6yGq0 -(yu vs amsa)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rh737mQkY8 (vectorman vs axe)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EMrWGtWe6U (wheat vs paintman)

    last one is of lower level players.

    Apologies if there is any misinformation.
     
  15. Dr Peepee

    Dr Peepee
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    Look around in this thread and my Marth one for analysis help. I talk about that all the time.

    If you want to focus in a match then you need to stay calm in a match and also have practiced useful match stuff. If you're practicing quadruple shining don't be surprised your shield pressure is off in matches. If you're spamming DD/lasers without thinking about how each move affects the opponent, don't be surprised when you don't know how to move or threaten in a match. If you want to be focused, good training in mind, body, and game will help a lot with that. Many people worry about losing, so you should lose often to get used to the feeling until it no longer bothers you.
     
  16. Jay417

    Jay417
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    Thank you very much! You are a wise man.
     
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  17. TheChocolateLava

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    @Dr Peepee I remember a while ago you streamed some of your practice routine. I remember being surprised that you practiced two types of retreating laser, which I remember (probably incorrectly) you calling "dash back laser" and "half dash back laser" or something like that. Dash back laser was your standard dashing reverse SHL (you dash back, jump, flick the stick back after you've left the ground, and press b). Half dash back looks like what a lot of new falcos do when they're trying to do the first one, which is like a dash back analog forward jump with a laser (dash back, jump, flick the stick back before the end of jump squat, and then press b).

    This blew my mind at the time, as I was still struggling with consistently doing the "correct" dash back laser. But do you use them both intentionally as different options for different spacings?

    My memory is pretty bad, and maybe this is all nonsense lol. Real option to practice? Or did this come to me in a fever dream or something lmao
     
  18. Dr Peepee

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    I actually looooove half dash back laser. It's basically an interrupt in your dash combined with a pivot so you stay in place as opposed to full dash back laser where you carry momentum since you don't pivot. It is extremely useful I believe. This is because your opponent has less time to confirm your dash back and also means if you want to mix up a quicker dash back into dash in aerial option or some other quick trick then they have to respect your dash back a lot. Additionally, you only have to give up a little stage to do this and you get laser control which is really strong. There's more to it but I think this is a really good tool every Falco should use in all matchups.
     
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  19. TheChocolateLava

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    Do you do it with a literal "pivot"? Or do you do it with an analog jump as I described?

    Thanks for describing its context as a tool among other "dash back" tools. Do you still use the full dash back laser often? Maybe against higher range characters?
     
  20. Dr Peepee

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    I mean it keeps you in place so I'd assume it's a literal pivot but I might not know the difference.

    I mostly use full dash back laser when I need more space/need to carry my momentum backward.
     
  21. Ezlo

    Ezlo
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    Hey, @Dr Peepee! I have a problem that's more or less unique to me, but has some similarities to other issues, too.
    So I live in Kuwait, a small(ish) country in the Middle East, and I've been playing Melee for around a year and a half, now. I've seen steady technical improvement in the game, but what really interests me is the mental aspect -- I want to be able to figure out what my opponent wants, how I can beat what they're doing, all that jazz. In Kuwait, though, there isn't anyone to play with. I've heard tell of one other person who plays melee competitively here, but no one I've spoken to knows how to contact him (I've been looking, but for now it seems like it will take a while). There's occasionally a tournament in Dubai or Bahrain, but even though my parents would be fine with me traveling for one, things always get in the way and I haven't been able to yet. On top of that, my internet is bad enough that netplay just isn't a viable option for practice with others.

    So, I'm stuck practicing the mental game on my own. Most of what I've learned, I learn through theorycrafting, or reading/watching things online and trying to incorporate them into my solo practice, so that they'll be easier to use when I'm actually playing someone else. However, there's a few problems.

    First, there's the issue of having an actual thinking opponent to play with. Obviously, without that, I can't really experiment with what works and when, nor can I learn to see what my opponent wants and learn to cut it off. How do you practice observing your opponent, and gleaning information about what they're trying to do, if you don't have an actual opponent to play against? I've been thinking about watching videos of other players and think as if I was playing against them, but haven't gained much from it, yet. Do you have any other suggestions?

    And second, I have issues with motivation. While I practice consistently and experiment with new ways to practice, I feel like it often falls flat, and I have trouble sitting down and analyzing. You've mentioned the 'triangle' of practicing this game, with solo practice, analysis, and friendlies (I suppose tournament play also counts as friendlies, to an extent). Without other people to play with, I don't have any method to test my ideas, nor see where my own play is lacking. Even though I play to learn and improve, I don't really have a way to check my improvement, and so often my practice deteriorates into experimenting with Yoshi's parry in classic mode after 45 minutes or so, and it's just really difficult to start analyzing since I don't have much to base my analysis off of. You've made a few posts on motivation, and I've tried to incorporate what you (and others) have said. I definitely haven't lost my motivation for improvement, but it's really difficult to maintain for any lengthy period of time, if that makes sense. Do you have any suggestions on how I can improve this?


    Sorry for the huge post, I wanted to make sure my situation was pretty clear, as I've gotten responses like "use netplay" or "travel to play more often." I REALLY want to do so, but I just haven't been able to (much) yet.

    Anyways, thanks for reading :) I have some falco-specific questions, too, but I'll save those for some other time.
     
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  22. Dr Peepee

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    Ahhh wow I'm glad you're sticking with it!

    As to your first question, I would do it two ways if I had to do it today. The first is I would watch a video and then pause in a given situation. I would choose an option for myself and option for my opponent based on what I had learned watching earlier interactions and then unpause. Then you will often be surprised, and can figure out why it happened as it did. After doing enough of this, you can get a feel for different ways to solve problems. If you do this, then you should start coming up with solutions you haven't seen yet and you do this through visualization. I have done plenty of visualization of scenarios and I can tell you it's pretty useful. If you imagine an edgeguard position or a neutral position given this is what happened before and at these percents etc then you can make informed guesses about what they will do, how to manipulate them, and resetting the situation but adding the last interaction in again you can try to predict what happens next. Sometimes you'll just have ideas, sometimes you'll expand your ideas and learn more, and sometimes you won't be sure and will have to go back to analysis. Also, if possible you might want to try recruiting local players to learn and getting them interested in the game. I've seen people do creative things like putting up signs at high traffic areas saying "if you beat me at SSBM you get $20 but if I win I get $1/nothing." Even if you decide against that, you can still strengthen some areas of improvement.

    I agree you need benchmarks! So you should benchmark your practice and log your results about as many factors as necessary during/after each session. For me, this means writing down how strong I feel at various areas of tech and how fluidly I was transitioning between tools during shadowboxing and so on. Surely there are things you can't do 100% consistently yet(or just 20/20 times even) and getting those things down more and more will help you see real progress and can obviously translate well to matches.

    Good luck!
     
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  23. Kopaka

    Kopaka
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    @Ezlo Way to go dude, I'd say you have more motivation given your circumstance than some people who live with plenty of players, and you're asking the right stuff, keep it up :)
     
  24. kaptinkillem

    kaptinkillem
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    When a peach downsmashes my shield, what way am I supposed to shield DI so I can punish with wdos shine? Also is it possible to shield a fair -> dsmash and still get proper shield DI to punish without getting poked?
     
  25. Klemes

    Klemes
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    Bro I'm trying to get better at this 2001 party game for children by seeking Dr.PeePee's wise answers but then everyone is Knuckles and I'm Knuckles and shït. And now PP's Knuckles too and I can't find him amongst all the other Knuckles and I'm Knuckles too btw.

    Ah fück it imma punch a wall or whatevs.
     
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  26. TheChocolateLava

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    Did some checking on your vods, and it seems to confirm my intuition that it's not a pivot. I think that it's

    dash (<---)
    jump input
    flick stick back (--->)
    analog jump (--->)
    release stick to neutral
    press b

    Recall that all jumps can be angled, and that your control stick's position is read on the second to last frame of jumpsquat to determine the direction you'll jump. This is called an "analog jump".

    The dashing "backward" momentum is cancelled out by the "forward" analog jump and you stay in place while doing a reverse laser. Doing the half laser vs the full laser seems to be based on when you flick the stick back - if you wait until after jumpsquat ends to flick, you'll have a dashing analog jump away or a dashing neutral jump away and get the full retreating SHL.

    If you were dashing away, pivoting forward and lasering in place, then your character model would turn around before jumping, which your (pp's) falco does not do. I don't know if trying to do this with a real pivot is worth it, as it seems likely that you'll occasionally mess up and do an advancing SHL in situations where that's bad. Interestingly, Zhu's falco does dash back shield pivot shl in place a good amount. Seems like a slower version of the half dash back laser.
     
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  27. Dr Peepee

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    Oh I didn't know analog jumps could cancel dash momentum perfectly like that. Neat then thanks
     
  28. kaptinkillem

    kaptinkillem
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    Can someone help me figure out how to deal with marths that do a lot of mixing up between run up grab and runnup fsmash but also do shield and dashback? It just feels like I'm always in a situation where I have to guess between his 3 options and if I guess wrong I eat at least 60% and if I guess right I get a hit that is usually hard to confirm into a real combo. If I think he'll grab I usually try to dash back out of range so I can wiff punish but that loses to fsmash obviously and shielding that loses to grab. I know doing a preemptive attack beats both but marths are so content to sit back and shield or dash back to avoid it it always feels like im on the losing end of a constant mixup. I could also post a video of me getting wrecked by a marth if someone would want to look over it for me. It could just be that im trying to play far back instead of upclose, but when im up close with marth I tend to get grabbed a lot from just wierd situations, which is a separate issue altogether lol.
     
    #23788 kaptinkillem, Apr 12, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
  29. FE_Hector

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    I mean, you can probably bait him into going for one of the options by doing something that visibly loses to another one of his options. For example, if you know he likes to fsmash you for dash dancing at the edge of his grab range, then dash dance for a moment and then dash in and shield the fsmash preemptively.

    If you're shielding and he hasn't done anything and you expect a grab, fading dair OoS is a pretty decent option.

    You only touched on this a bit, but if he likes to dash back a lot, figure out how far he's willing to push himself into a corner before he starts reconsidering running away and waiting for a risky aerial, and then punish his antsier movement/ decision making after that.

    Those are generally what I try to keep in mind vs those kinds of Marth's, but a video for people to give some more specific advice is never a bad idea.
     
  30. Bones0

    Bones0
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    You need to have lasers out constantly vs. Marth when you're outside tipper range. He doesn't have enough frames to run up grab/fsmash/dash attack between lasers, so use them to cut off his approaches until you can close in on him and force him to shield or hit him directly. If you expect him to running grab you, dash back SH dair into him gives you a huge punish opportunity. If you're properly punishing his fsmashes out of shield, he should be really afraid of just throwing them out. You need to WD OoS asap and run up shine him. One 80% pillar combo should be enough to scare him off of using it, and you can add in quick shield stops at various points during your laser-DD footsies to keep him guessing.
     
    #23790 Bones0, Apr 12, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
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  31. BirdmanJR

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    also anyone have any guides or general info on falco throw punishes ? Im not sure what DI I am looking for them to do. For instance I really like when they DI out on an upthrow at the edge so I can dair them but thats all I notice really.



    and when I should use upthrow shine I dont really do anything but upthrow dair and that seems bad a lot of times
     
  32. kaptinkillem

    kaptinkillem
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    Thanks you for the reply this helps a lot. I need to go back to grinding low lasers, I've been slacking on that. Can you get a low enough laser to hit his dash on full and half dash back lasers?
     
  33. duckypotato

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    Just grind it out and you will start to notice some stuff. Here's some stuff I like to do
    (Some off this might be wrong, I haven't actually tested it its just what I remember/use)

    In general

    If you do an fthrow and it sends them offstage shoot a laser to catch the instant DJ, you can get a lot of free stocks versus sheik fox falcon and falco with this
    Upthrow is your overall best throw, if you are below a platform it can start a combo with upthrow shine or you can just use it for a quick upthrow bair against most chars.
    Upthrow is also great because having someone above you is usually pretty good, on larger stages you can just cut off their landings with lasers from a midscreen distance and on small stages you can contest them in the air with Bairs

    Dthrow is like a weird DI mixup on most chars, or you can use it to get them offstage quickly and read a panic DJ with a dair (this works really well on falcon, fox and marth)

    Fox:

    Low Percents
    -Backthrow regrab/ftilt/fsmash on Inwards DI
    -if they DI away on a backthrow, you can just start moving towards where they are gunna land. Lots of people roll because they get scared of a hit and spotdodge if you threaten a grab in
    -Upthrow shine (great under platforms to start a shine shine combo)

    Mid-Percents
    -Upthrow to SH bair/dair on away DI
    -Upthrow to FH bair/dair on no DI
    -Inwards DI on Upthrow you can connect a bair or dair if you react quick enough, if they avoid the lasers and DI behind i find the only thing that works is a quick bair
    -Backthrow ftilt/fsmash on in DI

    High Percents
    -Fthrow to set up edgegaurds
    -Upthrow bair to get a kill


    Marth/Sheik:
    Backthrow is pretty useless except for the aforementioned panic dj read

    Low Percents:
    -upthrow bair
    -upthrow fair (hold in while you do a fair so you keep connecting the hits)

    Mid Percents:
    -this is when you can start looking for upthrow dair and fthrow laser mixups, they need to do opposite DI to escape each

    High Percents:
    -Upthrow Bair/upair


    Peach/puff:

    This is my area of least knowledge for falcos throws, but in these matchups upthrow bair is really solid, upthrow upair works to kill. You can also use dthrow and go for a read with dtilt. At low percents you can throw peach up to a plat and start up some pressure, lots of peaches like to shield once they are up there for a nair OOS or shield drop if they are super good.
     
  34. Bones0

    Bones0
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    You can actually shoot lasers low enough to hit crouching Puff, so yes, you can hit the lowest point of Marth's crouch. You should be able to do it with perfect FF timing as well. An important thing most Falcos do not seem to practice is adjusting their laser heights WITHOUT adjusting their FF timing. Some heights are impossible to hit with the earliest FF timing, but in most cases you can adjust your B press to be earlier or later than normal to get higher and lower laser heights. Hitting the earliest FF timing, right as you reach the peak of your jump, limits how many frames you're vulnerable for while lasering, which is the primary risk of shooting lasers. Once you get a laser out, immediately shooting another laser is a reliable way to protect yourself from most immediate threats.

    You can't just spam lasers though, you still have to be concerned about potential threats. So while Marth might not be able to immediately dash attack you through two quick lasers, he can take the first laser, run up and (power)shield the second, and go for a grab. Whenever you are shooting lasers, try to interpret these 2-step approaches. Another example might be a Fox shielding the first laser and wavelanding onto a platform. If you shoot another because you're on autopilot, he can drop down and aerial you. The first laser protected you from any immediate attacks, but if you don't react to and deal with how they're setting up a way through the lasers, you'll get punished for them a lot.
     
    #23794 Bones0, Apr 15, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
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  35. kaptinkillem

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    Thanks so much Bones! Have been neglecting my laser game, I'll start to work on that, this will be super helpful :)
     
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  36. kaptinkillem

    kaptinkillem
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  37. Bones0

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    Honestly, even though you had the lead, it was a good chance to practice dealing with ledge camping in case you end up in a situation where you don't have the lead and a Marth is camping you. At the very least, you should have kept pressuring him at the ledge. Marth sucks in the corner, and you were at 0% so CCing his LH attacks was a serious threat.
     
  38. kaptinkillem

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    I'm actually pretty good vs marth at the ledge most of the time. I bait out a lot of fairs and use bair/fsmash or CC. I just was waiting for like 20 seconds, and at that point I just wanted to see how long he was gonna do it for lol.
     
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  39. Yort

    Yort
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    What do you think of grabbing ice climbers in general?

    I feel as though they are inclined to sit in shield. Empty hop grab, laser grab and shine grab work frequently for me.

    Next, what do you think about his throw followups on ice climbers? Mainly curious about dthrow. Do you have a method for which throws you use depending on which climber you grab etc?
     
  40. FE_Hector

    FE_Hector
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    I personally like to just throw one climber into the other, so typically with fthrow. However, if I know Nana's at a higher% and grab Popo, I uthrow him and fsmash her. I'm no PP, tho
     
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