PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[bboss]

ok thanks man

 

[SandwichSundays]

Dr Peepee Can you walk me through your thought process on refreshing ledge invincibility? The firebird stall is a really tight timing for full invincibility and I find myself getting gimped a lot when the opponent is right next to the ledge. Is there a safer way to refresh invincibility, or is it better to act immediately after touching the ledge (ledgedash, side b to center, etc.) when the opponent is nearby?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah you'll either need to be great at the up-B refresh or edgedash immediately, or vary drop DJ regrab and DJ back regrab(works best if your opponent is a bit off balance or doesn't edgeguard much). Those are pretty much your only options outside of below 100% getup attack and roll/stand which honestly aren't too bad.

 

[TheChocolateLava]

Dr Peepee you've seen this thread I hope? https://smashboards.com/threads/falco-ledgedash-timing-and-intangibility.442300/

Just wondering if you're conscious of how your ECB affects ledgedashes in various scenarios. This makes refreshes pretty key (imo) for consistent ledgedashes.

 

[FE_Hector]

I feel like PPMDs just kinda OGing it and going off of his gut feeling instead of understanding all the in-depth properties that most people don't really understand too well, but he may well surprise me.

 

[bboss]

to me this doesn't make much of a difference, its not like you get more invincibility frames second time through. And you can't drop from the ledge sooner than frame 7, and it's not like Falco has an ECB like Kirby / DK / Puff, so i really don't see your point

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee you've seen this thread I hope? https://smashboards.com/threads/falco-ledgedash-timing-and-intangibility.442300/

Just wondering if you're conscious of how your ECB affects ledgedashes in various scenarios. This makes refreshes pretty key (imo) for consistent ledgedashes.

I know about this and you can just practice edge dashing from side B/up-B and DJ respectively to learn those timings. It's hard, but that's part of playing Falco I believe

 

[TheChocolateLava]

That's a good assumption Hector, but surely he sees the value in some modern innovations.

bboss you'd be surprised the difference it makes. frame-perfect inputs aren't feasible to hit 100% every time. using a setup that has an extra frame of leniency on the jump and airdodge inputs makes 100% ledgedash consistency possible, and your i-frames are consistently workable.

I mean the main takeaway of the data, imo is
- if you grab the ledge from a firebird ledgestall, sweetspot side-b, or down angled up-b, you can freely ledgedash
- if you grab the ledge another way, you should refresh to fix your ecb one or more times (as a mixup)
- drop from the ledge and ledgedash without fastfalling

How you fit this into your gameplan is your call. But doesn't having consistent (not frame perfect!) ledgedashes that give you 10+ frames of actionable inangibility sound good?

 

[bboss]

That's a good assumption Hector, but surely he sees the value in some modern innovations.

bboss you'd be surprised the difference it makes. frame-perfect inputs aren't feasible to hit 100% every time. using a setup that has an extra frame of leniency on the jump and airdodge inputs makes 100% ledgedash consistency possible, and your i-frames are consistently workable.

I mean the main takeaway of the data, imo is
- if you grab the ledge from a firebird ledgestall, sweetspot side-b, or down angled up-b, you can freely ledgedash
- if you grab the ledge another way, you should refresh to fix your ecb one or more times (as a mixup)
- drop from the ledge and ledgedash without fastfalling

How you fit this into your gameplan is your call. But doesn't having consistent (not frame perfect!) ledgedashes that give you 10+ frames of actionable inangibility sound good?

That is true. but in the year 20xx... jk. I read the thread, it actually is quite useful, i just didn't really understand the point of it at first. and yes consistent ledgedashing is very important! Imo especially v marth!

 

[TheChocolateLava]

Dr Peepee

mang0 put out a video a while back where he talked about falco. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRa7249dBWk

Someone reminded me about it recently, and it got me thinking about falco's general plan when using lasers. I'd love to hear your thoughts on some of these ideas: whether you think they're important things to keep in mind, are too specific, too general, etc. Also keep in mind that a big part of the foundation of my thinking on melee has come from things you've said, so I might just be parroting your own words at you lol.

Lasers force a mix-up scenario. What do they do after they shield/get hit by a laser, or what do they do to avoid it? What do you do after firing a laser? The options you each have after a laser is fired interact with each other somewhat like an RPS game, in that some are "wins" in some sense (getting a hit, safely taking stage?) and others are losses (getting hit/losing stage), and some are neither.

If you observe what they tend to do after lasers, you can adapt what you do after lasers to counter them. I want to say that this is a good statement describing falco's macro gameplan in most matchups?

I don't know, it seems right but feels narrow to me. I feel like movement should be a more important factor in this gameplan than "something he does before/after a laser to beat certain options".

Should I be treating all tools in neutral this way? Like, intentionally observing what opponents do when I dash at them, or jump, etc? At my level of play, it seems difficult enough just to keep track of what they do after laser. Let alone having all the responses to common and uncommon actions ready.

How's my thinking here?

 

[duckypotato]

Dr Peepee

mang0 put out a video a while back where he talked about falco. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRa7249dBWk

Someone reminded me about it recently, and it got me thinking about falco's general plan when using lasers. I'd love to hear your thoughts on some of these ideas: whether you think they're important things to keep in mind, are too specific, too general, etc. Also keep in mind that a big part of the foundation of my thinking on melee has come from things you've said, so I might just be parroting your own words at you lol.

Lasers force a mix-up scenario. What do they do after they shield/get hit by a laser, or what do they do to avoid it? What do you do after firing a laser? The options you each have after a laser is fired interact with each other somewhat like an RPS game, in that some are "wins" in some sense (getting a hit, safely taking stage?) and others are losses (getting hit/losing stage), and some are neither.

If you observe what they tend to do after lasers, you can adapt what you do after lasers to counter them. I want to say that this is a good statement describing falco's macro gameplan in most matchups?

I don't know, it seems right but feels narrow to me. I feel like movement should be a more important factor in this gameplan than "something he does before/after a laser to beat certain options".

Should I be treating all tools in neutral this way? Like, intentionally observing what opponents do when I dash at them, or jump, etc? At my level of play, it seems difficult enough just to keep track of what they do after laser. Let alone having all the responses to common and uncommon actions ready.

How's my thinking here?

Im not pp but speaking from my experience, I think it's not as narrow as that. You can expand the concept to something as simple as watching where they move to, not even after lasers just watch where they like to move. For example Lots of sheiks like to jump up to plats and come down with a fair or Bair, so getting above them and not letting them come up is key. Once you start to notice that, using lasers to force that kind of predictable movement is the next step. That's more of a macro situation, while laser dd sh nair is a micro kind of answer to them like attack oos or something. Broader game plans are always better in my experience. For example an icies in my region has a pretty good falco and sheik as well because he has a really simple effective gameplan of always putting the opponent offstage and trying to edgeguard.

I mean I might be totally off the mark here but that's just what I experienced when I was learning to use lasers.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee

mang0 put out a video a while back where he talked about falco. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRa7249dBWk

Someone reminded me about it recently, and it got me thinking about falco's general plan when using lasers. I'd love to hear your thoughts on some of these ideas: whether you think they're important things to keep in mind, are too specific, too general, etc. Also keep in mind that a big part of the foundation of my thinking on melee has come from things you've said, so I might just be parroting your own words at you lol.

Lasers force a mix-up scenario. What do they do after they shield/get hit by a laser, or what do they do to avoid it? What do you do after firing a laser? The options you each have after a laser is fired interact with each other somewhat like an RPS game, in that some are "wins" in some sense (getting a hit, safely taking stage?) and others are losses (getting hit/losing stage), and some are neither.

If you observe what they tend to do after lasers, you can adapt what you do after lasers to counter them. I want to say that this is a good statement describing falco's macro gameplan in most matchups?

I don't know, it seems right but feels narrow to me. I feel like movement should be a more important factor in this gameplan than "something he does before/after a laser to beat certain options".

Should I be treating all tools in neutral this way? Like, intentionally observing what opponents do when I dash at them, or jump, etc? At my level of play, it seems difficult enough just to keep track of what they do after laser. Let alone having all the responses to common and uncommon actions ready.

How's my thinking here?

The way Mango discusses the game I don't think is very helpful for many people unless you're willing to deeply dissect what he's saying while watching him for a long time to get a deeper understanding. That said he's obviously right that you need to be observing what people do after lasers. If laser comes out and hits them/their shield you get frame advantage of some sort so they have to deal with you. This means if you laser you can start gathering information about how they will mitigate that frame advantage. This is why I always tell people to look at properties of the moves because that's what you can abuse if you push it all the way. Eventually you can relate things like dash and laser or laser and Nair and see how the threats are connected and apply deeper pressure with laser.

 

[TheChocolateLava]

The way Mango discusses the game I don't think is very helpful for many people unless you're willing to deeply dissect what he's saying while watching him for a long time to get a deeper understanding. That said he's obviously right that you need to be observing what people do after lasers. If laser comes out and hits them/their shield you get frame advantage of some sort so they have to deal with you. This means if you laser you can start gathering information about how they will mitigate that frame advantage. This is why I always tell people to look at properties of the moves because that's what you can abuse if you push it all the way. Eventually you can relate things like dash and laser or laser and Nair and see how the threats are connected and apply deeper pressure with laser.

Dr Peepee

What kinds of things are you referring to when you say "properties of moves"?

Stuff like "laser gives you frame advantage in this situation"?

or more like "dair is a spike so it beats crouch cancel"

or like "the shape of this hitbox lets you win or trade with this other move"?

 

[Dr Peepee]

"Laser gives frame advantage because you can act when you land and it's still moving to them or stunning them, giving you advantage. In other words laser gives frame advantage" would be one way to say it counting the properties. Those other things you listed are also properties. It's really anything you can think of in my experience.

 

[Silen]

Dr Peepee

Hey PP, do you think that falco belongs where he is on the tier list right now. Sometimes when I look at his matchups and strengths and weaknesses compared to puff and marth I can't help but feel that falco is lower than second. I do agree with you that he still could be optimized though. What are your thoughts?

 

[Dr Peepee]

He could be anywhere in the top 4 I feel. I certainly think he's better than Puff because he can actually fight Fox and doesn't struggle with characters like Young Link. Whether he's better than Marth/Sheik even is a hard question. I usually just say I think Fox is probably the best by a bit and then the other 3(Falco Marth Sheik) are all around the same spot.

 

[TheChocolateLava]

What are your main options when sheik is at dash attack range? I was watching you vs Reno and noticed that

1. you didn't often find yourself at this range, is this intentional?
2. You did a sh laser a few times just as sheik came in with dash attack/grab and jumped over them, is this reliable?

When I laser at that spacing I feel vulnerable to DA/grab. Is that spacing one you try to avoid? I only noted a few interactions at that range, and you did a lot of dash dancing while closer to sheik.

I solo main falco in tournament but I had a fox for a while and I was able to play the matchup with sheik fairly well by standing at or outside that range and reacting to approaches with drill in place. I've tried to translate that style to falco vs sheik to little avail.

Is staying far away from sheik a good gameplan? Or is closer dash dance pressure a better plan? Dr Peepee

 

[Silen]

He could be anywhere in the top 4 I feel. I certainly think he's better than Puff because he can actually fight Fox and doesn't struggle with characters like Young Link. Whether he's better than Marth/Sheik even is a hard question. I usually just say I think Fox is probably the best by a bit and then the other 3(Falco Marth Sheik) are all around the same spot.

Yah, I agree with that, I always feel like spot 2-4 just kind of float around and rely on personal skill. Thanks for responding

 

[Dr Peepee]

What are your main options when sheik is at dash attack range? I was watching you vs Reno and noticed that

1. you didn't often find yourself at this range, is this intentional?
2. You did a sh laser a few times just as sheik came in with dash attack/grab and jumped over them, is this reliable?

When I laser at that spacing I feel vulnerable to DA/grab. Is that spacing one you try to avoid? I only noted a few interactions at that range, and you did a lot of dash dancing while closer to sheik.

I solo main falco in tournament but I had a fox for a while and I was able to play the matchup with sheik fairly well by standing at or outside that range and reacting to approaches with drill in place. I've tried to translate that style to falco vs sheik to little avail.

Is staying far away from sheik a good gameplan? Or is closer dash dance pressure a better plan? Dr Peepee

If Sheik is in dash attack range you want to be transitioning to a closer or farther space. The reason is because it's a bit difficult to easily threaten her there and as you said she can dash attack or sometimes walk ftilt you.

2. It covers her jumping and can dodge her other approaches but it would lose to run dsmash for example. It's not bad but a bit risky.

You fight her up close and far away but not so much mid range. Up close being close enough to shoot and approach from it and hit her jumping pretty easily but far enough to avoid walk Ftilt. Farther away is better to start setting up laser mixups on Sheik and from that position you can begin trying to get closer. You have to fight at both to win.

 

[TheFlipside]

I don't know if this is the right place to ask questions specific to my gameplay or if I should make a thread but here it goes. I have been struggling (probably 20 hours of practice on following up) to get better at comboing after getting a hit on a platform on 3 platform stages. It feels like the way I'm moving around the stage after dair>shine is too slow to follow up on them with another attack. So should I continue to work on using stage movement like waveland, shine waveland or is it maybe spacing related?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I need to know what characters and percent ranges and starting positions you're using before I can really help. Sometimes to avoid missing the followup, you can jump shine when a FF'er is just barely above a side platform after doing your first Dair shine around 20-30%. This doesn't always work if they DI from the center to the side platform since you might not be able to jump there in time always. That's the only thing I can offer without more info though.

 

[TheFlipside]

I need to know what characters and percent ranges and starting positions you're using before I can really help. Sometimes to avoid missing the followup, you can jump shine when a FF'er is just barely above a side platform after doing your first Dair shine around 20-30%. This doesn't always work if they DI from the center to the side platform since you might not be able to jump there in time always. That's the only thing I can offer without more info though.

This mostly at low% on fast fallers, I guess because there is less time before they tech on one of the side platforms. Their starting position is either on the bottom middle of the stage or under a platform and then they land on one of the side platforms after I shine them.

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you're directly under the platform, you can jump shine most of the time or have an easy reaction tech chase. If you're in the middle then you usually will have to WD out of the shine toward the platform and either reaction tech chase shine or uair. If their percent is higher you can FH Nair/Bair and get a decent situation out of it. There might be certain stage/percent/position combinations that prevent you from getting to where they tech in time and in that case you can double dair if your first one is late or grab after dair or utilt so you can get damage or a pseudo combo.

 

[bboss]

Dr Peepee

Do you find, at tournaments, it is better to play a lot so you are warmed up or not play a lot so you are confident? This is one of my biggest struggles, I will be worn out / experiencing mild hand pain if i try to play for like 3 hours straight, but if i don't then i am not warmed up and lose. What do you use personally?

 

[FE_Hector]

Dr Peepee

Do you find, at tournaments, it is better to play a lot so you are warmed up or not play a lot so you are confident? This is one of my biggest struggles, I will be worn out / experiencing mild hand pain if i try to play for like 3 hours straight, but if i don't then i am not warmed up and lose. What do you use personally?

Just my two cents, but I doubt it takes three hours to warm up. If playing that much before bracket burns you out, maybe try for playing for 30-60 mins in the slot right before the tournament starts so that you're warmed up, but haven't had to expend too much energy yet.

 

[bboss]

Just my two cents, but I doubt it takes three hours to warm up. If playing that much before bracket burns you out, maybe try for playing for 30-60 mins in the slot right before the tournament starts so that you're warmed up, but haven't had to expend too much energy yet.

ya thanks i'lltry that. my problem is i am a short-term player and i suck on day 2 of tournaments.

 

[Insolar]

I dont know why, but my movement with falco always feels really sloppy. I see a lot of top players such as yourself and westballz with such smooth movement, but I'm always so slow even with dash dancing and wavedashing... Any tips for improving movement?

 

[bboss]

Just my two cents, but I doubt it takes three hours to warm up.

Yeah I think my problem solved itself. I went to a tournament last night, played for like 2 hrs straight and only lost 3 games. and I was playing very well the entire time. So thanks

 

[FE_Hector]

I dont know why, but my movement with falco always feels really sloppy. I see a lot of top players such as yourself and westballz with such smooth movement, but I'm always so slow even with dash dancing and wavedashing... Any tips for improving movement?

Practice, practice, and more practice. When you're done with that, practice some more. Vary your practice. Practice against people. Practice against bots. Practice against different characters and on different stages. Practiceeeeee.

 

[Silen]

I dont know why, but my movement with falco always feels really sloppy. I see a lot of top players such as yourself and westballz with such smooth movement, but I'm always so slow even with dash dancing and wavedashing... Any tips for improving movement?

Its really weird, movement on any character just kind of grows on you over time. Just keep practicing. I used to suck at moving with falco and now it feels like second nature flowing through the maps. Its hard with falco due to his stupid fast jump speed and small dash dance. Its all practice

 

[Dr Peepee]

I dont know why, but my movement with falco always feels really sloppy. I see a lot of top players such as yourself and westballz with such smooth movement, but I'm always so slow even with dash dancing and wavedashing... Any tips for improving movement?

Everyone starts off with uncoordinated movement. The key is to simplify everything and then build speed slowly. Once you can do simple things quickly it becomes a lot easier to bring it together. Don't force.

 

[kaptinkillem]

Dr Peepee I have a lot of trouble catching sheik rolls and spotdodges even when I have a read. They seem to always get another spot dodge out or get their sheild up before I can hit them. Do you usually prefer to read the roll and react with shine because it's so fast, or do you like to use a more active hitbox like dair to cover it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sometimes you can WD back out of shine to cover roll in, sometimes you can laser after shine to catch roll or spotdodge, but you may be hitting their shield too high with an aerial so they could roll before shine. I don't know but figuring out what you do while they're rolling is the place to look.

 

[duckypotato]

Hey PP! What are your thoughts on using a SH upair while underneath peach? I try to stay under her in the MU and use lasers to get her back into the float. At a FH float height ,which falco seems to have trouble with, i feel like a SH upair as you move past peach would be a safe way to poke at her if she tries to come down. especially on a small stage where you dont have room to instant DJ laser to catch her out of that float height.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's alright but Peach can often react to you jumping in by weaving back and/or aerialing to trade so you have to catch her offguard if you want to do it. The reward isn't quite worth the risk normally to me.

 

[Yort]

It's alright but Peach can often react to you jumping in by weaving back and/or aerialing to trade so you have to catch her offguard if you want to do it. The reward isn't quite worth the risk normally to me.

What other recommendations do you have for directly hitting peach out of float? fh rising dair etc?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Going high then falling with a laser. Platform lasers work great at hitting her best float height on any stage. On FD you can FH/DJ and falling laser to hit the same point. From there you can go in.

 

[bboss]

Dr Peepee

how do you wavedash back and forth so quickly. Theres a 10 frame lag after wavedash right? But to me it looks like you do it faster any tips?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I may be putting dashes in between the wavedashes that make it look like I'm WD'ing again when I'm actually not. Also, I believe I've heard that YT looks faster than irl gameplay so it could just be that. Many people drop frames when doing tech though and I try hard to avoid that.

 

[SandwichSundays]

Dr Peepee

Do you have any tips for dealing with respawn invincibility? I tend to run to the ledge, but that gives up center stage and it's easy to get boxed in if they get good positioning on a platform.