PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

I find physical training and stamina in game training help with those matchups for endurance.

You want to intercept those moves early if possible, or for puff get over her or under her and otherwise just back up.

Do late Dairs, shines, laser approaches or laser grab approaches, or spaced Bair to get damage. That stuff is all safe on hit at low percent.

 

[TheChocolateLava]

Just a quick tech question, but what is Wes doing in the clip that starts at 9:56 of this video? Does he just DJ --> waveland on platform or is that a short hop to laserland?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onIeVmnZKaM

dash short hop dair platform warp. start the aerial right as you're at the height of the platform. it's pretty easy, just give it a try a few times.

 

[Zorcey]

I will not be answering tech questions

Doctor Poop how do I do Fox's invisible ledgedash

 

[FriendGuy]

Just a quick tech question, but what is Wes doing in the clip that starts at 9:56 of this video? Does he just DJ --> waveland on platform or is that a short hop to laserland?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onIeVmnZKaM

He's basically manipulating his collision box with bair in order to be able to short hop from the side platform to the top, which isnt normally possible to do with just a short hop.

https://youtu.be/TtiDd5cQWJc?t=6m33s That whole video showcases a bunch of advanced platform/ECB related stuff, and the timestamp included discusses this Falco platform tech in particular.

EDIT: The move is Dair, not Bair, My bad

 

[StrayDog]

I'm really struggling against Peach. The main problems I'm having are that it seems really difficult to hit Peach without trading due to her abundance of fast, good priority moves, especially dash attack, nair and bair, and trades are substantially worse for me than for Peach. She's also impossible to edgeguard, so sending her offstage doesn't seem particularly rewarding. Most of the moves that I use to win neutral (bair, nair, up tilt, ftilt, shine, dash attack) do not lead to kills or kill setups once Peach has reached 80% or so so Peach lives to ridiculous percents (130+ every stock.) I don't really struggle with neutral, I mostly struggle with the ridiculously lopsided punish games and the fact that trades are almost always favorable for Peach. My main way of getting kills is CCing dash attack into dtilt, which only works if I am really low percent and the Peach has been conditioned to spam dash attack (not hard because of its ludicrous risk/reward.)

My main questions are:
-How do I make my punish game more threatening against Peach? I'm okay at pillaring her until 30-40% and after that my punish game mostly consists of dairing her onto platforms and trying to read tech options, but I'm sure there are better ways to really put her in danger.
-What do I do against Peach in the sky? Seriously, she seems untouchable and up throwing/up tilting her is just completely unrewarding.
-What do I do to edgeguard Peach? I've edgeguarded one seriously once and it was because I practiced a couple wavelands and then realized she wasn't dead and yolo fullhop dair'd. Most times I try to spam lasers but they just float way to high above them and then drift mixup on the way back to the stage. Even if I do manage to hit her back off the parasol is a ****ing cornucopia of mixups. I don't even know how to start thinking about using Falco's tools to cover her options.
-What are some good kill setups against Peach? I've done a little bit of labbing and discovered jab -> shine bair, jab -> bair or nair and jab -> fsmash true combos at around 95, 110 and 140 % respectively, but I want to be killing around 80 or 90 or so and real followups don't seem to exist.
-How do I deal with Peaches that just put out hitboxes whenever I'm near and go for trades? Her moves don't seem laggy enough to whiff punish and her float allows her to just do it and drift away slightly, she just seems like a really safe character, I seriously have no idea what to do.

 

[FE_Hector]

-How do I make my punish game more threatening against Peach? I'm okay at pillaring her until 30-40% and after that my punish game mostly consists of dairing her onto platforms and trying to read tech options, but I'm sure there are better ways to really put her in danger.

There's not a ton you can do to help out your punish game. One thing you can almost definitely do is get yourself into situations where you can react to her tech options instead of guessing it. Especially on a platform, it's more than possible for you to do.

-What do I do against Peach in the sky? Seriously, she seems untouchable and up throwing/up tilting her is just completely unrewarding.

Uthrow and utilt may not feel rewarding, but you're still keeping her in the air. If you know what she likes to do, you can also jump up near her and threaten a strong bair. They can't always react when you're out there threatening.

-What do I do to edgeguard Peach? I've edgeguarded one seriously once and it was because I practiced a couple wavelands and then realized she wasn't dead and yolo fullhop dair'd. Most times I try to spam lasers but they just float way to high above them and then drift mixup on the way back to the stage. Even if I do manage to hit her back off the parasol is a ****ing cornucopia of mixups. I don't even know how to start thinking about using Falco's tools to cover her options.

Edgeguarding Peach is weird. Basically, you're gonna want to use your jumps and platforms to try and steal her float and harry her double jump. Don't laser the parasol because it can gain her height. Outside of that, just watch what PPMD does in his sets/games vs Armada. A lot of empty short hops to force Armada to guess what he's going to do. That positions definitely a rough one.

-What are some good kill setups against Peach? I've done a little bit of labbing and discovered jab -> shine bair, jab -> bair or nair and jab -> fsmash true combos at around 95, 110 and 140 % respectively, but I want to be killing around 80 or 90 or so and real followups don't seem to exist.

As far as I know, real kills don't exist on floaties at 80 or 90%. It's just part of the nature of the MUs. Against fast fallers it's more than possible, but floaties' insane survivability makes it far less feasible. You largely need to just take advantage of the fact that you win the neutral more than she does.

Not addressing your last one because I haven't fooled around with the MU enough yet to answer it, but here's what I will say. Falco wins the neutral against Peach more easily than Peach wins the neutral against Falco. She may take each of her hits way further, but the fact that she's regularly getting hit and stuffed and just generally bullied by Falco is still annoying. Whenever I play these MUs, I just have to remind myself to really not rush the game.

 

[eideeiit]

Edgeguarding Peach is weird. Basically, you're gonna want to use your jumps and platforms to try and steal her float and harry her double jump. Don't laser the parasol because it can gain her height. Outside of that, just watch what PPMD does in his sets/games vs Armada. A lot of empty short hops to force Armada to guess what he's going to do. That positions definitely a rough one.

Drugged Fox has an analysis vid of PP v Armada at pound 5 where he talks about edgeguarding peach with falco.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8mhyMqYNj8&t=3049s

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm really struggling against Peach. The main problems I'm having are that it seems really difficult to hit Peach without trading due to her abundance of fast, good priority moves, especially dash attack, nair and bair, and trades are substantially worse for me than for Peach. She's also impossible to edgeguard, so sending her offstage doesn't seem particularly rewarding. Most of the moves that I use to win neutral (bair, nair, up tilt, ftilt, shine, dash attack) do not lead to kills or kill setups once Peach has reached 80% or so so Peach lives to ridiculous percents (130+ every stock.) I don't really struggle with neutral, I mostly struggle with the ridiculously lopsided punish games and the fact that trades are almost always favorable for Peach. My main way of getting kills is CCing dash attack into dtilt, which only works if I am really low percent and the Peach has been conditioned to spam dash attack (not hard because of its ludicrous risk/reward.)

My main questions are:
-How do I make my punish game more threatening against Peach? I'm okay at pillaring her until 30-40% and after that my punish game mostly consists of dairing her onto platforms and trying to read tech options, but I'm sure there are better ways to really put her in danger.
-What do I do against Peach in the sky? Seriously, she seems untouchable and up throwing/up tilting her is just completely unrewarding.
-What do I do to edgeguard Peach? I've edgeguarded one seriously once and it was because I practiced a couple wavelands and then realized she wasn't dead and yolo fullhop dair'd. Most times I try to spam lasers but they just float way to high above them and then drift mixup on the way back to the stage. Even if I do manage to hit her back off the parasol is a ****ing cornucopia of mixups. I don't even know how to start thinking about using Falco's tools to cover her options.
-What are some good kill setups against Peach? I've done a little bit of labbing and discovered jab -> shine bair, jab -> bair or nair and jab -> fsmash true combos at around 95, 110 and 140 % respectively, but I want to be killing around 80 or 90 or so and real followups don't seem to exist.
-How do I deal with Peaches that just put out hitboxes whenever I'm near and go for trades? Her moves don't seem laggy enough to whiff punish and her float allows her to just do it and drift away slightly, she just seems like a really safe character, I seriously have no idea what to do.

I'll address your main questions.

-Dair'ing her onto platforms is one of the best things you can do. She can't really get away and you can Fsmash/Dair again as a mixup for more damage or positioning. You can also Dair her into the ground close to the edge so again she has limited tech options. When you can't do these, then push her up and out so she has to deal with FH/DJ Bair and Utilt.

-This juggling part people really struggle with. If you can land a Utilt like you say then you can shine or Uair or at least Bair and get great damage and positioning. Juggling is about burning Peach's options(DJ/float/airdodge) and then punishing after that while still being threatening the whole time to force her to burn the options. It really helps to force her to one side of the level so she can't cross you up. You can do this by staying between her and the middle of the stage but still close enough to rise with Bair and hit her. You can think of this like a diagonal line down from Peach that Falco can stand in. If you do this you can extend punishes and set up edgeguards so you can even out the punish difference in the matchup.

-For one, you can sh out and dj dair a lot of up-bs if you're quick enough/know when you can recover from that. Sometimes you can just sh immediate dair offstage and let Peach get hit by it if she's just trying to wait out an option and getting close to the edge. If she's high up, then it's like an easier form of juggling. If she comes into you then you either Dair her first(if she Fairs) or just Utilt/Bair it, or at least dd throw her back off the level to try again. If she's really low, then you kinda have to outplay the Peach a little and figure out when she wants to up-B so you can WD to the edge first, but if you're already on the edge when she's low she can't get too close or you can drop shine dair/bair her.

-jab fsmash, laser dtilt at higher percents than you want, jab shine bair are all good. If you want to kill Peach at those percents you either have to edgeguard her or get a Dair right by the edge so you can Dair again. Double Dair by the edge is super good vs her and Puff so learning how to get those corner Dairs is invaluable.

 

[duckypotato]

Recently ive been having trouble contesting foxes who use fullhop a lot in the neutral. On big stages i just dash dance and laser until they land and come in for the punish, but on small stages i run out of room and when i try to anti air it feels like fox always has the answer. I don`t have a consistent way of hitting fox out of fullhop. Fullhop dair seems risky to me because it puts me above the fox if I miss, and trying to get under them and uptilt seems to suffer similarly in that if the fox sees my WD or Dash in he can DJ FF dair and beat my utilt out. I could also wait for that and anti air it, but im curious if anyone knows about a more consistent anti air for fox FH. Would something like FH bair work?

 

[FE_Hector]

Recently ive been having trouble contesting foxes who use fullhop a lot in the neutral. On big stages i just dash dance and laser until they land and come in for the punish, but on small stages i run out of room and when i try to anti air it feels like fox always has the answer. I don`t have a consistent way of hitting fox out of fullhop. Fullhop dair seems risky to me because it puts me above the fox if I miss, and trying to get under them and uptilt seems to suffer similarly in that if the fox sees my WD or Dash in he can DJ FF dair and beat my utilt out. I could also wait for that and anti air it, but im curious if anyone knows about a more consistent anti air for fox FH. Would something like FH bair work?

Spaced bair is definitely a good option. If you wanna be a bit rude with a bit of a read, you can jump into his drill and mash downB and you'll be able to shine him out of the drill. I don't remember the specifics for why it works, but it does.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Recently ive been having trouble contesting foxes who use fullhop a lot in the neutral. On big stages i just dash dance and laser until they land and come in for the punish, but on small stages i run out of room and when i try to anti air it feels like fox always has the answer. I don`t have a consistent way of hitting fox out of fullhop. Fullhop dair seems risky to me because it puts me above the fox if I miss, and trying to get under them and uptilt seems to suffer similarly in that if the fox sees my WD or Dash in he can DJ FF dair and beat my utilt out. I could also wait for that and anti air it, but im curious if anyone knows about a more consistent anti air for fox FH. Would something like FH bair work?

SH Bair vs their incoming attack is the easiest, but FH Bair is even more reliable if you can set it up. Utilt works fine too except vs Bair but you might have to time it earlier/stop moving so much.

The thing about small levels is you can't waste actions so much and it's more about what moves beat what moves. Lasers will happen less on small stages so you have to find ways to outspace/CC Fox.

 

[tauKhan]

you can jump into his drill and mash downB and you'll be able to shine him out of the drill. I don't remember the specifics for why it works, but it does.

It's because when you collide into ground in non-tumble hitstun, you'll impact land out of the hitstun if you have enough kb. So it's the same mechanic that is essential for cc. It's a bit finicky trying to jump into drill though, since the first hits will push you toward the ground and you don't want to land before the last hit. ASDI has huge impact in the scenario.

 

[duckypotato]

So, when I was at Genesis, I was talking to Zhu for a bit about Mango.

He told me that Mango's neutral goes from a safe position to a high risk high reward position very quickly, compared to most other players who slowly accumulate their advantage.

I don't really see that however, when I watch mango videos I notice mango plays a really mixup heavy close game, and he seems to really hold on to an advantage when he gets it. Even when comboing someone he seems to know when and how people will escape his combos and keep the pressure up. Is this the risky part or am I missing the point of what Zhu told me?

 

[TAG$]

Can someone please give me some advice about if I should use c stick for arieals or not or the pros and cons of this feature/ tactic? and also if i should start doing arieals with possible other chars or all chars? thanks comm!

 

[FE_Hector]

Can someone please give me some advice about if I should use c stick for arieals or not or the pros and cons of this feature/ tactic? and also if i should start doing arieals with possible other chars or all chars? thanks comm!

It's definitely objectively best to C-stick all aerials that you can because you get the maximum possible control over your aerial drift. You also don't run the risk of accidentally fast falling (if dairing) or burning your DJ (if uairing) in positions you don't want to. Unless you intend to play other characters, there's not much point in practicing aerials with other characters imo. Only advantage I can think of off the top of my head would just be gaining a better understanding of effective ranges, but even then you gain that by playing against other people.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So, when I was at Genesis, I was talking to Zhu for a bit about Mango.

He told me that Mango's neutral goes from a safe position to a high risk high reward position very quickly, compared to most other players who slowly accumulate their advantage.

I don't really see that however, when I watch mango videos I notice mango plays a really mixup heavy close game, and he seems to really hold on to an advantage when he gets it. Even when comboing someone he seems to know when and how people will escape his combos and keep the pressure up. Is this the risky part or am I missing the point of what Zhu told me?

That's one way of putting it.

But you can see this for yourself if you look at Mango before he goes nuts on people(which is what everyone remembers). Often he is doing 1-2 lasers and some dashes in a small space. This is partly to set up an approach but also to keep himself safe and react if someone wants to come in. It may help to slow the video down and watch Mango without watching his combos.

 

[duckypotato]

That's one way of putting it.

But you can see this for yourself if you look at Mango before he goes nuts on people(which is what everyone remembers). Often he is doing 1-2 lasers and some dashes in a small space. This is partly to set up an approach but also to keep himself safe and react if someone wants to come in. It may help to slow the video down and watch Mango without watching his combos.

Hmm Ill have to watch videos with that in mind...

What do you mean by "set up and approach"? is he looking for a whiff punish or just positioning / laser pressure?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Lasers often need to come before approaching aerials or grabs because you need the frame advantage/timing change for the opponent due to Falco's slower speed. So you have to set up a laser/2 lasers before approaching often.

 

[TheChocolateLava]

Hey falcos! and PP!

I've been trying to work crouch cancelling into my game. I have had some success in the fox matchup baiting nairs and cc shine punishing, but better foxes end up spacing bairs and nairs so that I can't get the shine.

Similarly, I've been struggling trying to CC marth and sheik. Is cc a reliable option against marths who approach with aerials? Everyone talks about how sheik gets bodied by CC. Similar to fox, I get a bunch of free openings vs newer players, but even mid-level sheiks stay outside of cc shine range.

I see foxes go for cc dtilt, its this viable with falco despite his dtilt range being lower? Should I try cc grab?

 

[FE_Hector]

Hey falcos! and PP!

I've been trying to work crouch cancelling into my game. I have had some success in the fox matchup baiting nairs and cc shine punishing, but better foxes end up spacing bairs and nairs so that I can't get the shine.

Similarly, I've been struggling trying to CC marth and sheik. Is cc a reliable option against marths who approach with aerials? Everyone talks about how sheik gets bodied by CC. Similar to fox, I get a bunch of free openings vs newer players, but even mid-level sheiks stay outside of cc shine range.

I see foxes go for cc dtilt, its this viable with falco despite his dtilt range being lower? Should I try cc grab?

CC grab is definitely worth it, and I see nothing wrong with CC dtilt. The range is still a fair amount farther than shine is, so why not at least try it? IDK about Marth aerials, but with Sheik it's very dependent on what she wants to do. If she's just trying to space fairs, throw out defensive ftilts, and ultimately grab you, then you're not gonna have anything you can consistently CC shine. It's kind of just a "check yourself" option.

 

[duckypotato]

Hey falcos! and PP!

I've been trying to work crouch cancelling into my game. I have had some success in the fox matchup baiting nairs and cc shine punishing, but better foxes end up spacing bairs and nairs so that I can't get the shine.

Similarly, I've been struggling trying to CC marth and sheik. Is cc a reliable option against marths who approach with aerials? Everyone talks about how sheik gets bodied by CC. Similar to fox, I get a bunch of free openings vs newer players, but even mid-level sheiks stay outside of cc shine range.

I see foxes go for cc dtilt, its this viable with falco despite his dtilt range being lower? Should I try cc grab?

I like to CC sh dair when they start to space outside of shine range. I feel like you can always use CC as a way to gain some more ground or get to a safer spot if the shine wont connect.

Versus sheik cc dtilt for the range, at least for her tilts. dtilt is also a half decent combo starter on sheik. Just watch out for them trying to bait it out of you because its really slow. Versus her fair, cc shine works well for me because the hitbox isnt that large.

 

[StrayDog]

Hey falcos! and PP!

I've been trying to work crouch cancelling into my game. I have had some success in the fox matchup baiting nairs and cc shine punishing, but better foxes end up spacing bairs and nairs so that I can't get the shine.

Similarly, I've been struggling trying to CC marth and sheik. Is cc a reliable option against marths who approach with aerials? Everyone talks about how sheik gets bodied by CC. Similar to fox, I get a bunch of free openings vs newer players, but even mid-level sheiks stay outside of cc shine range.

I see foxes go for cc dtilt, its this viable with falco despite his dtilt range being lower? Should I try cc grab?

To CC Marth I like to dash dance and WD back a lot and then randomly mix in WDing in and trying to get inside the tipper range. The inside hit of fair can actually be CCd for a pretty long time.

 

[TheChocolateLava]

Thanks for the advice! Unrelated but check out this thread I just posted about how mango beats shieldgrab with ac bair shine.

I'm interested in Dr Peepee 's opinion, he probably has known about this for a while.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah this is kind of a gimmick that's used somewhat often at higher levels. In the example you posted, it looked like Syrox actually messed up his input and just let go of shield and that led to him getting hit by shine. I'm nearly positive that it should at least lose to shine oos but it's such a niche situation I'm not sure how much it's been tested.

 

[TheChocolateLava]

Yeah this is kind of a gimmick that's used somewhat often at higher levels. In the example you posted, it looked like Syrox actually messed up his input and just let go of shield and that led to him getting hit by shine. I'm nearly positive that it should at least lose to shine oos but it's such a niche situation I'm not sure how much it's been tested.

Thanks, I appreciate you weighing in. Gimmick seems like a good word for it. Now that I'm looking for it, I notice a lot of mango's bairs use this kind of drift pattern. What a puff main, huh .

Yeah the syrox example isn't a good one in terms of beating shieldgrab. I posted some gifs showing it vs 20XX shieldgrab though; I was super surprised to find it working so consistently in that situation. If I find anything interesting when I test in debug mode for frame data, I'll post it. But I don't really imagine it'll beat shine OoS lool

 

[FriendGuy]

Do analysis requests go here? The actual video thread looks a lil dead.

 

[FE_Hector]

Do analysis requests go here? The actual video thread looks a lil dead.

As far as I know, you can still post in the video thread itself. There are also a lot of guys over in the Falco Discord who can look at videos, too. If you're not in the Discord, the permanent join link should be http://bit.do/20yys

 

[Yort]

Dr Peepee

You like to talk about how important it is to have a well developed ground game as falco and how he should mainly stay grounded in most match ups aside from falco / fox.

Can you give some advice on developing a stronger ground game (shadowboxing etc)?

Why exactly is staying grounded so important vs marth in particular? I understand why it is generally bad to be above him, but I am sure there is more to it then that.

 

[Dr Peepee]

The important things are understanding and practice and they work together. For understanding you have to think of all of your neutral tools and the threats attached to them. So what does a dash forward threaten? A dash SH forward? A laser in place to dash back? What effects do these types of actions have on your opponent? Practicing those types of specific actions is how you keep from dropping frames and also how to develop a ground game. So vs Marth, if you go high you can threaten with falling dair/bair/laser or to go higher/to a platform, but Marth has a quick dash and a big quick disjoint in front of him. It is easier to use this on you when cornered but you can't threaten as safely as grounded in that matchup I believe. On the ground you can always transition from lasers at various spacings to dashes or dash SHs and can jump at multiple points in the SH. Marth can't reliably threaten then and has to manipulate you more to get hits. Even swinging with dash attack as Marth is quite risky if you're shooting primarily low lasers/backing up sometimes as you should. So I think Marth has to do way more work to get grounded hits than aerial hits.

 

[TheChocolateLava]

Dr Peepee

Can you talk a little about the conscious mental processes involved in improvement? I think it's especially relevant to falco players trying to get better because it seems that it's so easy when playing falco to just mindlessly laser and go in.

Is the falco gameplan in each matchup something you've consciously worked out, on paper or in your head? And when you're improving, now or back when you first started, what does that thinking look like, and how can we model that? For example, you analyze a video and see a situation that you're getting hit in a lot. You break that situation down on paper and explore the theoretical counterplay and the mixups of what they can do and what you can do back etc. But then how do you translate this hypothetical/theoretical gameplan into your play? How conscious is it, and what does that thinking sound like?

I personally feel, and suspect that many falcos do too, that the theoretical gameplan in my head is better than what I do when I play. For example, I think falco should shinegrab a lot, and if they start rolling out a lot, punish their rolls. If I get in on a shield, that's my plan. But in tournament, I don't do that, even though I practice my shinegrabs at home and make an effort to do it a lot in friendlies. How does one bridge this gap?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well you've mentioned part of this is practice and part is analysis. I'd agree. People often don't look for patterns/the bigger picture in analysis and don't practice in a way that's useful for tournament play. If these two things are fixed people will improve quickly.

So in analysis, you can say I keep getting hit for this and this is what I should do. That's fine. But you also want to be thinking about why you couldn't see you were getting hit, what about their character and yours was being exploited and whether that player represents a certain archetype. Archetypes are categories like offensive/defensive/calculated etc. In a given situation different types of players will do different things but it's still possible to categorize them.

For practice, don't do that thing people like to do where you're just moving all over the stage and not thinking about what you're doing. In matches you have an opponent to respond to so that doesn't help. What you should do instead is simple actions and setups that you can do in matches. Starting simply, you can wavedash. Then you can wavedash laser. Then you can wavedash laser dash/aerial, and repeat with other tools. The point is to stop dropping frames and have a clear purpose for your actions. You have to know why you'd do the WD in the first place, and this is why analysis and practice need to work together. That's the best way to decide what moves and strategies are worth using because you'll get to clearly try the setups out vs opponents and get clear feedback.

 

[bboss]

Dr Peepee I've been playing Falco for about a year and whenever I want to approach I seem to put myself in a bad position, and whenever I play defensive and laser my opponent just powershields and then finds a way to approach. Is passive-aggressive / probe playstyle the best?

 

[FE_Hector]

Dr Peepee I've been playing Falco for about a year and whenever I want to approach I seem to put myself in a bad position, and whenever I play defensive and laser my opponent just powershields and then finds a way to approach. Is passive-aggressive / probe playstyle the best?

If like... all of your opponents have pretty consistent powershields, then at least part of your problem is probably not mixing up your timing or heights of the lasers as much as you should be.

Another thing to think about is the simple concept that it's okay to whiff aerials. Half-commit to an approach or simply fade back when you jump. Don't constantly stick to a singular plan.

I'm sure PPMD can write a paper about this, but that's the gist of it to my understanding.

 

[nebula_benula]

Dr Peepee So I've been wondering about the Fox/Falco matchup, and as a Falco player myself I find that some people think that FD is really good for Falco... and when I played at a lower level I also agree, but now that I'm playing better foxes it doesn't seem that way anymore. It feels like on FD a fox can just react to anything I do, given their speed and dash dance. Even with lasers fox seems way too fast to lock down, and it's even harder to react to fox's dash dance.

Especially when full hopping and trying to come down, fox's amazing dash dance can always catch me. Not to mention fox's amazing chain grab on falco. I just watched wes vs leffen at ssc, and the last stock leffen just up threw him like seven times and back aired. I'm really lost on how to win the matchup on this stage..

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee I've been playing Falco for about a year and whenever I want to approach I seem to put myself in a bad position, and whenever I play defensive and laser my opponent just powershields and then finds a way to approach. Is passive-aggressive / probe playstyle the best?

Offense or defense, it doesn't really matter. You're going to need both to win, but you're also going to lean toward whatever side suits you more. I'd figure out what feels best for you/what you want to do and then plan around that. Any approach or defense can be beaten and that's why we have to learn more.

Dr Peepee So I've been wondering about the Fox/Falco matchup, and as a Falco player myself I find that some people think that FD is really good for Falco... and when I played at a lower level I also agree, but now that I'm playing better foxes it doesn't seem that way anymore. It feels like on FD a fox can just react to anything I do, given their speed and dash dance. Even with lasers fox seems way too fast to lock down, and it's even harder to react to fox's dash dance.

Especially when full hopping and trying to come down, fox's amazing dash dance can always catch me. Not to mention fox's amazing chain grab on falco. I just watched wes vs leffen at ssc, and the last stock leffen just up threw him like seven times and back aired. I'm really lost on how to win the matchup on this stage..

Well if Fox can do that on FD, wouldn't that make it worse on any other stage since he gets more options out of his FH? He can land on a platform or not, or DJ to another and move off of that immediately or not. FD is better because it prevents Fox from abusing his FH so much. He does gain an advantage in being able to directly FH into you from anywhere since you can't dodge it by going under a platform, but that's not exactly foolproof anyway due to landing on the platform vs falling through aerial mixup I described before.

Fox's punish is closer to Falco's on the level, but Falco still hits just as hard or harder in my opinion. Falco wins the neutral though. The reason is because Fox doesn't get an easy dodge on lasers so he's always forced to be manipulated. Falco can also stop Fox coming in if he's not always dashing so he can Utilt/Bair any approach as well. Once you have that space established then the Fox gets controlled reliably even if it is difficult.

 

[nebula_benula]

Offense or defense, it doesn't really matter. You're going to need both to win, but you're also going to lean toward whatever side suits you more. I'd figure out what feels best for you/what you want to do and then plan around that. Any approach or defense can be beaten and that's why we have to learn more.


Well if Fox can do that on FD, wouldn't that make it worse on any other stage since he gets more options out of his FH? He can land on a platform or not, or DJ to another and move off of that immediately or not. FD is better because it prevents Fox from abusing his FH so much. He does gain an advantage in being able to directly FH into you from anywhere since you can't dodge it by going under a platform, but that's not exactly foolproof anyway due to landing on the platform vs falling through aerial mixup I described before.

Fox's punish is closer to Falco's on the level, but Falco still hits just as hard or harder in my opinion. Falco wins the neutral though. The reason is because Fox doesn't get an easy dodge on lasers so he's always forced to be manipulated. Falco can also stop Fox coming in if he's not always dashing so he can Utilt/Bair any approach as well. Once you have that space established then the Fox gets controlled reliably even if it is difficult.

Well I was talking about Falco's full hop - it seems like it would be good but I find that fox always catches me when land after using it.
As for the rest I think I get it - just space with utilt/bair, and zone with lasers.
I do have another issue though, I cant build percent on fox from zero, because I can't get anything off grab, and when I arial they just cc shine?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Oh you should just fade back from FH and mix up dair vs laser then it's hard to deal with.

You can CC shine him, get a pseudo combo from grab, getting late Nair/especially Dair into shine is great too. If Fox jumps in and you Utilt him out of the air you can get a good punish. Sometimes you just have to space Bair to give Fox some damage so he can't CC as easily.

 

[nebula_benula]

Thanks kevin. Definitely gonna watch some of your vids, and cant wait for you to come back

 

[bboss]

Dr Peepee Every time I play a sheik i seem to get destroyed because my opponent needles me offstage and then he does an aerial and im dead. How do i not get needled so much offstage? Walljump?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Shine stall, walljump, sweetspot vs rising dair, jump backward and side b(shorten or not) or up-B and you can do that stuff out of shine stall.