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Falco Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Falco' started by Dr Peepee, Nov 27, 2009.

  1. Chroma

    Chroma
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    Nah, pretty much that - just reflecting the down b. If you asked me about it, I'd probably think it were too janky to actually work.
     
  2. unknown522

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    sorry, I meant apex2010.
     
  3. FrootLoop

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    everytime I reflect thunder I get sad when it doesn't go back up
     
  4. flaw

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    so the timing on short hop dair fast fall... when do you guys usually input the fast fall, before or after the dair hitlag? obviously after for rising dair, but i mean in general for apex and/or falling dair. i find i input the fast fall before the hit on the nair, but for dair i usually just wait for hitlag to be over to fast fall but this leads to more chances for me to mess up the timing. do i need to relearn the dair fast fall timing?

    it seems like dair should be easier since i can do nair 100% and nair comes out in 4 frames and dair 5. it looks to me like i input nair just before the peak of the jump, then on frame 2-3 of the move fast fall, it hits and i lcancel and it's very consistent. i can't seem to do it with dair, i think it's because of the c-stick not being as precise as a button and old muscle memory.
     
  5. Bones0

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    You can't FF before doing a SH aerial. It won't come out fast enough.
     
  6. flaw

    flaw
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    I'm not sure that's true, look at the frame data. You can input fast fall during the aerial itself, but not hitlag, correct? So you could start dair 3 frames before peak of the sh, input fast fall during first falling frame (frame 4), and the aerial will come out on frame 5, just as you start coming down.

    How else does zhu do his falling uair-resets?
     
  7. Bones0

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    He uairs, then he FFs.
     
  8. flaw

    flaw
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    Right, but he fast falls before the hitlag, right (first hit is frame 8 - tons of time)?

    I'm not asking about fast falling before the aerial, I'm asking about fast falling before the hitlag. (even still, you can actually fast fall before starting the dair because i just tested it by hitting down to fast fall, holding it down, pressing a button and it hits super low but does work).
     
  9. Bones0

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    Well obviously you can FF before hitlag. You might not hit them until the frame before you land if you space it properly. Pretty sure Strongbad confirmed a while ago that you can't FF and still get an aerial out in time unless I'm thinking of something else.
     
  10. Xyzz

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    Nah, you're completely right. Falco lands three frames after inputting FF, none of his aerials is fast enough to get out hitboxes in that time (:
     
  11. Bones0

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    Word, I knew it.
     
  12. flaw

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    So to answer my original question, the falco pros are all inputting the fast fall after the hitlag, and I don't have to really worry about learning the timing before?

    Btw, this wasn't really my idea, take a look at the frame data for "ideal" and "late" pillaring, both have fastfall in there before the hitlag: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=271114

    Curious if anyone actually does it this way (i can do it this way, not sure if i should be doing it this way)
     
  13. SSBMLahti

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    I guess you've found a flaw, in your game?
     
  14. Bones0

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    Where ???
     
  15. Warhawk

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    Glad someone posted the link to the thread, I'd seen that frame data before but had forgotten where.
     
  16. Dr Peepee

    Dr Peepee
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    I don't think I usually FF before aerial'ing but I feel like I do sometimes. If it's impossible then it just feels like the timings are closer together sometimes *shrug*

    Feels like something I should mess more with. I did it maybe a year ago and don't remember my results anymore.

    I've been smashing with some OOS blood for a few days now, which is why no updates have been made or questions have been asked regarding the training techniques. When I wake up today that will be one of the top priorities. =)

    WD'ing with Falco is seriously amazing. No one knows what is going on LOL.

    Falco's DJ has amazing properties but you can die =(

    /6AM thoughts
     
  17. SuperMatt

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    i always thought it was:

    short hop, start aerial, fastfall, hitlag, lcancel
     
  18. Jim Morrison

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    Only if I want to do the extremely low aerial, like N-air or D-air RIGHT before I hit the ground so I can easily can get in a shine go on with shield pressure, then I fastfall before the hitlag, and input it like the same time I start up the aerial.
     
  19. Supreme Dirt

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    Got linked to that practicing on your own guide and I'm curious as to what you'd recommend a Mewtwo player practice.
     
  20. Xyzz

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    Pick a better character if you ever intend on winning anything relevant.
    Sorry, could not resist :x
     
  21. Moooose

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    i have some metagame changing training advice

    1. Dont play for a month before a tourney
    2. Watch PP vids for an hour before the tourney
    3. Play like PP
     
  22. Bones0

    Bones0
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    4. Lose in WFs and go through 2 sets of GFs at every major tournament so your fans have more videos to watch.
     
  23. mers

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    I've noticed the way you WD around, and it's cool as ****, but I'd love to hear you explain it more (if you're interested in doing that). Like, not just why it's good (cuz that's a little bit easier to figure out), but your thoughts behind the way you use it in your movement.
     
  24. Bones0

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    Yeah, I try to incorporate WDing, but sometimes I feel like I just do it aimlessly and it's not actually helping me. :/
     
  25. Dr Peepee

    Dr Peepee
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    Building Drive....

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    I am not so familiar with Mewtwo, but I will offer what I know about the character in regards to what I have up already.


    Zoning:

    timing various DJCs out of different jump heights and out of different movements/other attacks. Example: You do a DJC Bair immediately after jumping and then get to the apex of your SH next time to initiate it. You then try doing this same type of mixup out of DDs/WDs at different times in each of those movements(different parts of your dashes and whether you initiate after WDs or not). Mixing in tilts with low lag like Dtilt is good to help give the opponent another visual cue that can confuse them and allow you to cover ground-based attacks like grabs as well.


    Counterattacking:

    Work on DJC'ing as an opponent comes in and punishing them. WD'ing back and tilt'ing or CC'ing and tilt'ing/grabbing work as well.


    Comboing:

    Getting the opponent into the air and hitting them with FH/DJC Uair or Bair or Dtilt/grab on their landing lag(maybe Uptilt as well....I don't know a lot about M2 lol). You could also knock the opponent onto the ground and make your WD movement quite intimidating so you can stay on top of them and control their getup options.

    Let me know if that was helpful! =)

    =D

    LMAO so glad people started picking up on this happening to me XD

    Well it's hard to explain, but the short story is that you need a way to move around/read/trick the opponent without lasering and dashing all of the time. The idea is to close distance/weave in an effective distance without giving Marth something he is used to reacting to. With the threat of a laser established, then Falco is free to move more. Wavedashing, which I think of as an extension/shifting of Falco's dash space, is a quick and relatively deceiving method of movement. Using WD'ing with appropriate lasers to trick people(such as making them think you will laser forward after doing so once in place then WD'ing inward to laser, for example) will also give the opponent more to watch for and thusly open your lasers up more.

    Does this make sense?
     
  26. Bones0

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    To be more specific, I am fine at using WD back. It's WDing forward that I have no idea how to use. It feels so risky, particularly because I have no dash momentum to SHFFL with. If I aerial I end up having to fade away, which I guess isn't so bad, but I just want to be able to do more with my WD in.
     
  27. Wenbobular

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    Why don't you try grabbing
     
  28. Dr Peepee

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    You don't have to directly attack out of it. Do you see people jumping at you/jumping away when you WD in? If so, then sure aerial. But I don't think that's likely. Again, remember they are respecting the laser and waiting for that usually.

    Depending on the matchup, you can do a lot with WD including shine or laser. However, using WD to close the gap between the opponent and yourself does not mean you are even in danger then. You can simply DD a little in your new, quickly acquired space for added pressure. You being close(r) to your opponent suddenly without the laser is quite difficult to deal with at times.
     
  29. Bones0

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    I don't grab. :|

    I guess will will just spam it next time I play until I figure out how to work it in to my spacing.
     
  30. Rh1thmz

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    Hey, I've got some vids that I'd like to have critiqued. I apologize about the way they were uploaded; Zbet was feeling super lazy :awesome: I do have all of them cued up in link form with times for you guys, though, so that should help.


    Please critique these matches; I feel that I played my best in these matches. I am always in second port as the red Falco with the CODA tag, Blake is always in third port, and Zbet in first.

    [COLLAPSE="Good matches"]vs Zbet (Peach)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKf7Yg7sJ00#t=10m18s 10:18 - 14:10
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKf7Yg7sJ00#t=14m18s 14:18 - 18:10

    vs Blake (Falco)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKf7Yg7sJ00#t=3m26s 3:26 - 6:03

    vs Blake (Marth)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKf7Yg7sJ00#t=20m48s 20:48 - 24:07

    vs Blake (Sheik)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKf7Yg7sJ00#t=1h3s 1:00:03 - 1:03:03
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKf7Yg7sJ00#t=1h5m17s 1:05:17 - 1:08:08[/COLLAPSE]
    I feel pretty uncomfortable with the Marth matchup right now, so any critiques on the Marth match are especially appreciated.


    If anyone ends up wanting to critique more/other matches, here is a list of links to a good number of them:

    [COLLAPSE="Other matches"]vs Zbet (Peach)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKf7Yg7sJ00#t=1h8m23s 1:08:23 - 1:12:45
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKf7Yg7sJ00#t=1h12m57s 1:12:57 - 1:16:18
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKf7Yg7sJ00#t=1h19m55s 1:19:55 - 1:23:13

    vs Blake (Falco)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKf7Yg7sJ00 0:00 - 3:15 The beginning got clipped a bit, sorry about that.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKf7Yg7sJ00#t=1h23m27s 1:23:27 - 1:26:16

    vs Blake (Falcon)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKf7Yg7sJ00#t=56m24s 56:24 - 59:46

    vs Blake (Fox)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKf7Yg7sJ00#t=1h3m12s 1:03:12 - 1:04:51[/COLLAPSE]
     
  31. Bones0

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    I got you on the Marth matchup bro. I'll try and have it done by tonight.
     
  32. Rh1thmz

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    Tear it up, dude.
     
  33. Rubyiris

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    I played with silly Kyle and actually ended up winning a few more games than I lost.

    Confidence is coming back. oksas is a ***** and didn't record the sets.

    New vids:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCywmo0GyaY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAabuKJXtSo&feature=youtube_gdata_player



    Sent from my LG-VM670 using Tapatalk 2
     
  34. ruhtraeel

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    Questions for Falco mains...

    1. When should I dash attack and jab vs Marth? It seems like it messes him up when he's close to you and slightly in the air
    2. Are there any things that dominate Puffs as Falco? Ie. lasering when Puff is at eye level, etc
     
  35. Rubyiris

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    When you're close mostly. Your grounded moves are faster than most of marths entire moveset. dash attack notably beats marths aerials due to jumpstart lag and how fair and Nair come out.

    Falco kind of dominates puff as a whole, but as a general rule I like to be under puff.

    Sent from my LG-VM670 using Tapatalk 2
     
  36. Dr Peepee

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    1. Jab if you don't think he will grab on reaction or if his percent is too high to CC. Dash attack when he's running away or holding shield and won't jump away. Dash attacking and jabbing are both relatively unsafe. If he's in the air then both moves can be okay but it's still toughish to land.

    2. Keeping Puff grounded with lasers and Dairs is good. Bair'ing/Uptilting her approaches is good. Grabbing or shieldstabbing her when she shields is good for abusing her bad ground game. Being below Puff in general is great.
     
  37. Bones0

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    Marth Match

    21:00 - Make sure you're comfortable L-cancelling early so you can land on low plats. It's extremely useful because you can alternate rising and drop through dairs and do stupid 80% combos without any real work.

    21:10 - You almost always want to DI utilts behind Marth so he can't get easy followups. You will get daired by the ledge a lot if your kneejerk reaction is to hold in against it.

    21:30 - You don't want to throw out laggy moves vs. a shielding Marth, especially by the ledge. Either just grab them or do something like a fadeaway shine-aerial to bait the grab.

    21:35 - You seem to tech in place a lot. Look at how the Marth is spaced before you land, and evaluate whether your can escape with a tech roll away or not. In that case, you definitely could have.

    21:45 - There was no reason to empty hop there. Lasers AC, so you almost always want to be lasering instead of empty hopping, especially when they are shielding already. By spacing a little closer you could have just laser-shined without any risk of being grabbed.

    22:00 - Always WD out of your shine in the direction that you hit them. So in that case you hit him with the right side of your shine, so you should have WDed right since that makes it easier to compensate for whatever DI they do. In that situation it would have enabled you to close the gap to the ledge much more quickly and probably knocked him off with another for an edgeguard.

    22:25 - I would have daired him again instead of using bair because he wasn't at high enough % that he would be far enough off stage to be edgeguarded. Any time you can force Marth into a teching position is a very good opportunity to take because the only way he can avoid a punish is by sliding off the edge, and he would have had to DI at a perfect angle to slide off that close to the ledge. He probably would have landed on the platform or edge of the stage, and then it's just a simple matter of dsmashing missed tech/tech in place and reacting to the other options.

    22:30 - You have a bad habit of trying to DJ back onto the stage with an attack. It is usually too risky, especially because Marth has so many overhead moves with his disjointed sword. You could have ledge cancelled a Phantasm off the top platform and completely taken control of the center stage as he whiffs an fsmash.

    22:45 - This is why I am constantly telling people to never jab Marth when he's facing you. It's honestly just never worth it. You are risking getting shield/CC grabbed, and the benefit of hitting that jab is almost nothing. The only time you'll ever link a dash attack or something else out of a jab is if you catch them off guard and they are at a decently high %. Instead, you would be much better off just running up and grabbing him, or in this case, since he was trapped at the ledge, I would have dashed back to adjust my spacing and SHFFLed to initiate shield pressure.

    22:50 - There's the tech in place again. Obviously your opponent was potentially covering all of your tech options, but the fact that he wasn't facing you means you can actually miss the tech intentionally without worrying much about jab reset. Teching through him you get regrabbed, teching in place you get utilted, teching away you get dash attacked (which you could try to ground tech), but utilt usually won't hit a missed tech, and he also can't chase and grab. At that point most people would turn around and shield for a get-up-attack letting you roll away. If he doesn't, then you just have all of the various options out of missed tech that you usually have, and you will just have to do risk-assessment to decide what he is most likely to cover properly and what is the most risky option to do. Ex. Picking the option that results in you getting grabbed or utilted at high %s is a lot less devastating than rolling into an fsmash.

    23:23 - FHing a nair like that is way too risky. He was just coming up out of a missed tech, so you can usually predict defensive options. He's either going to try to escape (WD off the plat/jump), or he's going to shield. Obviously he countered, but I like to just think of counter as a shield combined with a really good OoS attack. lol He could also get-up-attack or wait, but those options only work when you get impatient with waiting underneath him. So just looking at those options, your best bet would probably be to do something like SH, then see what he does, then DJ to punish. Even if you can't reach him with an attack as he WDs away, you can always just hold down center stage while he struggles to find a way off the side plat. More often, people will simply shield because they are afraid of getting hit. This means you can simply DJ onto the top plat and grab him, and this would work vs. counter too of course.

    23:40 - Here's another situation where I would rather dair to force a tech chase on a plat than hit him further into the air. Right after you do uair, you shouldn't have DJed. Any time Marth is recovery high, you can at the very least trade bair to knock them back off. There's almost nothing they can do. So if you look at when you did that DJ and instead imagine positioning yourself under the side plat with your back to him, you can see how he's virtually guaranteed to get knocked off stage again.

    24:05 - Ugh, that hurt to watch. lol It was the same thing you did at 22:30.


    Overall, not too bad. Most of the stuff getting you killed are bad habits, or missed DI on utilt/dash attack. When you can learn to DI all of Marth's setup moves, it makes it so much harder for him to land a KO move, and it make sa huge difference because you can swing matches back in your favor by racking up damage while you sit at 100%+ unable to be comboed into anything. It was sort of hard to give advice on the neutral spacing since you both seem pretty awkward with DDWDing still, but I definitely think you should use more lasers. They are hard to use on FoD unless you practice it a lot, but simply lasering and then DDing to react to them is extremely powerful, and you also didn't seem to like doing laser into anything. One last thing is I would recommend learning to Firebird stall by hitting away on the control stick and rolling it upwards to jump, then pressing B. It's way easier than trying to go straight down then straight back up. It also looked like you were doing your LHDLs like that because you went so high and got fsmashed. lol I highly recommend using Y as it gives you much more control while still letting you shoot extremely low lasers. I actually learned to LHDL by first learning to SHDL with Fox, and then just added in the downward press before the jump. Hope this helps! ^_^
     
  38. Rubyiris

    Rubyiris
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    Bones you should critique my bird, etc.

    Sent from my LG-VM670 using Tapatalk 2
     
  39. Bones0

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    I only play vs. Marth. :|
     
  40. Rubyiris

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    don't care. All input is valuble.

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