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Falco Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Falco' started by Dr Peepee, Nov 27, 2009.

  1. Fortress | Sveet

    Fortress | Sveet
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  2. Dr Peepee

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    It's an old technique but a good one. Jabbing spacies out of the Bthrow makes them panic a little so they usually jump quickly. Even if they attack with their jump, the Fsmash will trade or beat it and they'll most likely die. Bthrow is fast, so lots of people don't even react quickly enough to think about not jumping lol.

    A variation is Bthrow Ftilt. Ftilt is slower so it's more likely to take their jump outright and still keep them low enough so they can't side B into the edge or onto the stage.

    I think Bthrow jab is better vs Fox since it makes Fox drop farther therefore setting up easier edgeguards, and Bthrow Ftilt is better vs Falco because he usually reacts about the time he gets to the point where Ftilt comes out and loses his jump for it.
     
  3. Druggedfox

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    I'm ashamed to say that I enjoyed the ending to that match
     
  4. Meneks

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    I thought I was the only one..

    To be COMPLETELY warmed up takes me 2 hours..

    Times may vary depending on how cold my hands are
     
  5. Dr Peepee

    Dr Peepee
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  6. Umbreon

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    i liked it too lol

    kevin i have something to show you whenever you're around. hit me up...somehow.
     
  7. JPOBS

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    it's kinda crazy how many little things mango has invented/popularized. I still credit zhu/forward with creating the bulk of falco's base gameplay/strategy, but mango has added a absolute ton of really specific, tiny things that are just hella useful.

    not just with falco either, all of his characters are like that.
     
  8. Bones0

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    Bombsoldier, bro. I feel like people forget about him sometimes.
     
  9. wezai

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    Amen to that.

    Bombsoldier's pillaring always looked sexy, he improved a lot the Falco match-up against Marth because of Ken? Is that right? Who was that Marth he used to play with? It's been so many years, my memory sucks. I'm like brain-dead. :/
     
  10. Bones0

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    Yeah, they played at Jack Garden tournament.
     
  11. crush

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    i think his brother plays marth too
     
  12. FoxLisk

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    bombsoldier and forward created modern falco.
     
  13. AvengerAngel

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    Bombsoldier used to do shineturnaround edge hogs before it was cool. Tru stori


    (and IIRC he was using some multishines here and there, too!)
     
  14. Blistering Speed

    Blistering Speed
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    Just saw some videos, surmised that Westballz is going to be the next ****ing top tier player. Watch this space.
     
  15. Mahone

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    i don't think he will be, although i do think he has a great chance against any player who plays a fast faller

    not trying to dis him... i hope he proves me wrong, but atm i don't see him beating any good floaties
     
  16. JPOBS

    JPOBS
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    Bombsoldier to the world!
     
  17. Blistering Speed

    Blistering Speed
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    You see him for what he is now, not what he will become.
     
  18. s2j

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    i already knew how good wes is i been preaching it for a while

    definitely has an EGO though and uses falcon vs floaties (he usually wins tho)
     
  19. Druggedfox

    Druggedfox
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    You mean... EAST COAST IS JUST GAY.

    It has nothing to do with whether or not he knows how to fight them, he just doesn't wanna be gay.

    Invincible falco aight though, not too gay :awesome:
     
  20. tarheeljks

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    a falco starting out better vs fast fallers and working up to floaties seems like a pretty standard evolution, no?

    edit: also, i watched westballz play a tight moneymatche with hbox in late 2010 (i want to say a couple of them tbh), so you may be selling his floaty game short. if he can hang w/hungrybox he's def capable of beating good floaties. guess that depends on who you are calling "good" though
     
  21. Tee ay eye

    Tee ay eye
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    there mahone goes
    hurting my feelings n ****
     
  22. knightpraetor

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    off topic but i agree with bones and the people who say several hours to be truly warmed up...sure i'm warmed up after 3-4 matches to the point that I wouldn't mind too much getting knocked out of a tourney while playing at that level, but that's nowhere near fully warmed up.. 3hrs is usually when i feel it kick in and i stop missing free automatic stuff
     
  23. Mahone

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    ahahha, ya dude wtf, stop being so gay druggedfox

    I would call hbox good lol, but i watched him play druggedfox before apex and watched him at that recent tourney vs hyuga and silly kyle. I know some people will just say he was off or whatever, but it seems like his mentality is not appropriate for fighting floaties.

    None of this is fact, thats just how i FEEL
     
  24. tarheeljks

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    haha, i wasn't saying you would say hbox isn't good
     
  25. Naughty Pixel

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    So I'm noticing recently how to maintain my stage control and presence. Once I have it and start pressuring my opponent I dominate but I sometimes find myself struggling to find the breathing room against my opponents pressure. Or if he's in my face.

    So my question is how do I create space for myself or return to the neutral position

    :phone:
     
  26. Bones0

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    What matchup?
     
  27. Naughty Pixel

    Naughty Pixel
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    Marth

    10Marth
     
  28. Dr Peepee

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    Regaining Stage Control/How I Solve Problems

    Good question! I'm going to answer this using the method I would use to answer it if I asked myself so that people can use this methodology if they want to solve other problems without having to ask me. =)


    When you're limited, you must understand why you are limited. Understanding the situation in its entirety is the first step in analyzing a problem and correcting it. In this case, you are limited by having a small amount of stage to move around on, and your opponent has a great amount of space to move around on.

    Knowing why each explanation you may come up with is relevant to the problem is a good way to check whether your ideas may be more correct or incorrect than the others. For example, if you also decided that having less space was bad because you couldn't wall someone out with Bairs and Uptilts as easily, then you would have to figure out whether this is a better explanation than having less room to move. The answer is pretty obvious in this case that having less room to move is the better answer and even explains the first theory in this case for simplicity's sake, but I'm just making a demonstration of how this thought process could work.

    Anyway, saying that you have less room to move around the stage, and movement is important in Melee are the ways you can express how this answer is related to the problem.

    Then you have to think about your answer you just gave. Why is movement important in Melee? What can you do with more movement options? Well, movement allows one to feint or hide their intentions, while still threatening with long-ranged or quick attacks at any time. Having less movement options means you will be more predictable since you have less room to create an elaborate feint. Generally, having less movement options also means you are confined spatially, which just means you are stuck in a smaller area(platforms count here too kinda). Being confined spatially is bad because you lose zoning, or space controlling potential. I'm sort of combining the two issues here, but movement is sometimes a bigger deal than zoning in Melee, so this is shortest way I can way write about the problem being confined presents.

    Once you know the problems associated with a bad situation and why they are bad, you can begin to analyze these problems and/or solve them as well as possible. When having less movement options, I already said you would be concerned about remaining unpredictable. So, this means you must know and abuse every single movement option you have in order to be unpredictable and not killed here. Economic DDs(not excessive movement, but enough to feign an approach and varies widely in speed), very precise WDs, FHs(if you're Falco in this case, which you are) and maybe SHs/DJs if you really like jump tricks are all good ways to use movement. Being fully conscious of them as Falco involves knowing if your opponent is in range to stuff a SHL on reaction or just wants to punish you for moving at all. Sometimes, doing nothing may be better than moving because you don't have many options anyway and you get to observe what your opponent is trying to do to you. Jumping allows Falco to move through the air well, especially if you don't FF, so I urge you to also keep that option in mind.

    As for being confined spatially, I'll have to overlap the answers a little. As you cannot zone too well in a locked up position, you must either decide on whether you want to play the opponent or focus on simply taking the stage back. If you want to play the opponent, then either work movement techniques that will make the opponent move forward and you can hit them/Bthrow reverse the situation on them, or cause them to be unsure of whether you will attack or not and fall back. If you want to focus on taking stage back, then common answers for Falco can be found in movement to seem as though you will attack, running/WD'ing up and jumping or shielding or attacking(usually a crossup, but could also be a zoning move like Bair/uptilt/ftilt) to quickly take stage. Notice that you are not limited to even just offense or defense here, but also a position of baiting and waiting as long as you remain unpredictable with your fewer options. As your opponent adjusts to 1-2 options, then feign those and/or switch to others.

    Keep in mind here that I have not yet mentioned lasers outside of the opponent looking to punish them, and that is because Falco PLAYERS can become heavily reliant on the option and limit themselves when they have other, usually better choices in this situation. Laser is great when your opponent thinks you will do something else is the best way I'd describe them in this situation.


    If you wanted to be really effective in your analysis, you could go on to examine each option individually, why it works, what opponents/characters it would work against, and which mixup options work best with each other option. I am tired and have put off being productive for too long now, so I'm not going to do that here.





    .......oh, I just noticed you also struggle with someone getting in your face as Falco. Shield DI(still very underused but amazing), WD'ing OOS, rolling at different times, and shine OOS(it's still invincible and wins out in trades usually) are among your better options here.


    Anyway, that's how I solve problems usually. If you have any questions or comments or criticisms, then lemme know because I'm always looking to improve/share my ideas. =)
     
    ik3r, SandwichSundays, Kopaka and 9 others like this.
  29. Umbreon

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    You're so east coast swag sometimes.
     
    kirjian likes this.
  30. Dr Peepee

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    fahgalsgfsfhsj
     
  31. Naughty Pixel

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    Thanks for the response PP, this gives me alot more to think about. As for examining options, I'd really like to do that but it's kind of hard for me to do that in the moment and I can't record myself or else I'd probably watch myself play alot. So what usually end up happening is I'll take away 1 or 2 situations from my most recent friendlies (I play like 3 times a week) and I'll think about them in my spare time during class.
     
  32. Dr Peepee

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    Find out which situations you're good in and bad in when you play(bad is easier for most people to remember so you can focus on that if you want). Once you do that, then you can think about why that is the way it is and how to maximize the profit off of that good situation(s) and minimize/negate the risk that comes with being in the bad one(s). You can usually recognize the bad situations by the ones in which you get hit often, so if it helps to think about the situation(s) that cause you to get hit, then you should think about those.
     
  33. Naughty Pixel

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    I'm probably gonna bookmark these two posts because I really enjoy thinking about the game I'm just never really sure on how to go about the thinking part most efficiently. So thanks.
     
  34. Bones0

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    Okay, that explains a lot. Marth is great at threatening Falco just by being near him. The most common predicament in the matchup when you're on the defensive is you are stuck in your shield. If you drop your shield for any reason, you are immediately at risk of a large number of Marth's moves. And of course, if you just ***** your shield you end up getting grabbed since Marths love to fiend on grabs.

    It's first important to understand your limitations. Assuming Marth is between his tipper fair and tipper fsmash range (as he should be), none of your immediate OoS actions threaten him at all. So immediately we can forget about attacking/shining OoS, and Falco's side-B options have better range but are much too slow. WDing OoS can be situationally useful, but for the most part vs. Marth it just doesn't go far enough to get you out of his range. That leaves us with FHing OoS, rolling, and spot dodging. A lot of this part of the matchup is a simple game of chicken, so it is not at all an exact science. By that I mean it is a lot about bluffing and knowing whether they will break or not. If you just hold shield because you know they will cave to impatience and fsmash, then you've won the game of chicken. If he stands still and lets your shield shrink until you finally have to roll, then he has won. Sometimes what you do may not work in the traditional sense, but that doesn't mean it was necessarily the worst decision. A lot of this can be viewed from the perspective of minimizing losses once you've lost the spacing battle and have been forced to shield.



    Hold Shield:
    - Just calling an attack by shielding enables you to counterattack poorly spaced attacks, or at the very least escape from the relatively long cool down on Marth's moves

    - It leaves you vulnerable to Marth simply running up quickly and grabbing you. Marth players tend to look for grabs at lower %s when they can combo out of it and attacks at higher %s to set up edge guards and force DI mixups (away vs. in on stuff like Ken combos).

    - Do not needlessly commit to your prediction that they will attack. If they move or do something that changes how you think they will behave, be open to switching your strategy to one of the other options below.

    - Utilize this more often when you're at kill %s where getting grabbed is less worse than getting hit by a rogue fsmash. DO NOT, however, fall into the habit of shielding based on fear. Try to maintain mental composure at all times, and shield with a purpose. Most people learn to instinctively shield when they are afraid, and this is a huge reason good players can run circles around people who just shield. Interestingly enough, even after being grabbed once, people tend to shield for the follow up. It's not uncommon to see M2K tossing spacies around helplessly because he knows when people are scared and how they will react. If you are at a high % and don't want to get hit, go ahead and shield, but be aware and conscious of their movement so you can react to grab attempts. You can't react to the grab itself, but seeing Marth dash when he's already within fair range is a clear indicator he isn't planning on attacking.



    Full Hop:
    - Use it when you think they are looking to grab you.

    - You are at risk of them fsmashing, so stick to using this at lower %s. At low %s, only a tipper is any real threat to setting up a decent edge guard, and at higher %s, you shouldn't be anticipating grabs as often because Marth's followups from grabs at high %s aren't very reliable.

    - Be conscious of how close you are to platforms that you could potentially WL onto. Also keep in mind, however, that Marth isn't afraid of a Falco trapped on a platform, so only use the platform as a way to get out of a bad situation quickly. Don't try to WL onto a platform and then attack from the same position.

    - Be ready to DI any attack Marth may throw out as your jump carries you up out of his range. If you're going to get hit by a tipper fsmash, you might as well DI it properly so you can potentially land on a side or even top platform when recovering. If you only take 15% from an attack and are able to regain position on the stage, then you fared quite well from such a bad situation.

    Spot Dodge:
    - Spot dodging, particularly when combined with a shine right after, is one of those things that can be the bane of your existence or a god-send miracle that turns the tide in a matter of frames. You will primarily be using it to avoid grabs (and following the trend I explained above, at lower %s).

    - Spot dodge shine is a great counter for grabs, but you have to actually use the spot dodge to... well... dodge. Similar to how people shield, a lot of people learn to spot dodge based on fear. Instead, watch the Marth's movement to figure out when they will approach. Obviously this isn't an exact science, but virtually every player has tells that let you know when they are going to commit to a grab.

    - In particular, when a Marth is DDing, pay attention to the timing of their DD. It's human nature to keep a solid tempo, so the instant you see them alter their tempo even a little is a good time to guess they will grab.

    - Once you've spot dodged, you have to immediately shift your brain over to damage control. Obviously if you successfully dodged a grab, you will almost always shine or utilt to begin your counter-attack. On occasions when you were wrong, you have to look at their position and determine how they will react. Most people don't see a spot dodge and then not try to punish it. Even if they weren't expecting it and know they won't be able to punish in time, people love to go for punishes anyway. As a result, you will often want to follow up flubbed spot dodges with another spot dodge or other get away options such as a roll. Mostly, I would just recommend trying to imagine the situation as largely unchanged. The spot dodge has provoked their senses so you can sort of assume they will do something besides wait for another reaction, but you should still be watching their movement and spacing to figure out what your best option is.

    - Watch Mango use spot dodges. He's really good at pin pointing the exact timing of when his opponents will go for that grab.



    Roll:
    - Ahhhh, rolls. So bad, and yet so good. A while back, I decided I wanted to completely eliminate rolling and spot dodging from my game. Strangely enough, I succeeded. Even with people attempting to bait rolls from me, I was largely preoccupied with all of my other options. Unfortunately, once people figure this out (and it doesn't seem to take too long because rolls are one of the few things people consciously bait and look for patterns for), you start getting destroyed. I steadily started adding rolls back into my game, and much like shielding and spot dodging I described above, I noticed how fear-based my rolling had been before I stopped using it. By completely eliminating all of my rolling, I made the few roll choices I did make very conscious. Instead of being like "Oh ****, this situation sucks, let me roll!" I would think to myself things like "Okay, I should roll behind him because he is airborne and spaced really far towards me."

    - Anyway, Falco's roll is obviously quite good, but Marth being the grab fiend he is, loves to just bait and punish rolls and spot dodges for free grabs on reaction. One limitation Marth has is that if he jumps, he is largely committed to you not moving. If you try to roll when he jumps, the only way you'll get hit is if he times an attack during those first 4 frames before you gain invincibility. Assuming he doesn't hit that timing, he will struggle to land and keep the pressure on you.

    - If Marth is staying grounded, you will largely want to rely on rolling away. Rolling towards him leaves you at a huge risk of being DD grabbed, and the spacing makes it really natural for the Marth to land it. Rolling away goes far and quick enough that Marth will only get it if he was really tight up on you or if he goes for a dash attack.

    - Be ready to think after the roll. Even if you made a good choice to roll, Marth is fast enough and has good enough range that you won't be out of the woods yet. Focus on where he is and what he's doing as a reaction to your roll. Most of all, don't be one of those people that rolls into shield. If you rolled and they can't hit you, don't hold down L/R just because it feels natural. Having this self control opens you up to using things like turn around utilt to take out a pursuing player or RSHLing to create space and reset to neutral.


    Hope that helps. I probably went a little overboard, but I can't help it when I'm talking about the Marth matchup. lol Too many details for every little scenario... ****ing Melee...




    Don't read PP's posts. He is way too vague and types like some hipster fapping to his Mac ("...so that people can use this methodology if they want to solve other problems without having to ask me"). Sorry to burden you in your own thread, BRO. I don't think he's even good at this game. He just DD-laser camps until people run into his combos.
     
  35. Naughty Pixel

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    I appreciate the post Bones0 theres alot of useful info there for me (i remember reading your main sparring parter is marth, same here) I'll deffinately look harder into full hops i never really utilize this great option of Falcos when I'm being pressured. gonna bookmark this one too , thanks.

    :phone:
     
  36. stabbedbyanipple

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    I like what I'm seeing in here. I like it a lot.
     
  37. wezai

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    There's so much win in this threads's last two pages, just so much win!

    We as patients have good doctors in this hospital, Dr PP and HouseBones0! :] They are pretty insightful and understand our problems. :bee:
     
  38. Druggedfox

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    Loooooooooooooool

    /dead
     
  39. Umbreon

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    i'd say go the **** to bed at a normal hour but lolllllll @ the raw level hypocrite status.

    kevin and you have shown me that it's much more fun to go in deep on this **** on aim or phone or w/e because you can get a real-time back and forth exchange while the ideas are still fresh in your mind. it's much more fun to just make jokes on the boards at this point and to do the real gruntwork elsewhere.

    edit: but man i love the gruntwork sometimes. hell yeah, 3.5 hours of only experimenting with sheik's recovery LOL
     

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