1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 225,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

  3. Get the Smash Controller on sale this holiday for $26.99 on Amazon! Get the Smash GameCube Controller now!

  4. Use the Smashboards Store to get awesome Smash stuff and support the site, like a Nintendo Controller or the Wii U - Gamecube adaptor ! Check out the inventory in our store and support Smashboards with your purchase today!

Falco Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Falco' started by Dr Peepee, Nov 27, 2009.

  1. Rubyiris

    Rubyiris
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,033
    Location:
    Tucson, AZ.
    The only time I was ever emotionally numb I played pretty much perfectly. I've never been able to replicate that feeling though. It was simultaniously the worst I have ever felt, and one of.the most euphoric feelings ever.

    The reason why more entrants makes it easier for lesser players is because of easier overall brackets. It is common in very large-scale tournaments for someone mediocre to coast through Swiss and outplace a better player with a more difficult overall bracket.

    Just to note that im just using the word bracket for the group of people you play through the x amount of rounds of Swiss. Also the argument im making doesn't have to do with ties. Its having so many players that someone who has.no business topping will likely do so due to variance.
    :phone:
     
  2. Bones0

    Bones0
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    10,955
    Location:
    Jarrettsville, MD
    I want to see a pregnant woman play Melee. Or maybe someone with multiple personality disorder. If only someone could consciously switch between their personalities to play multiple characters with multiple play styles. It'd be so hard to adapt to them because they could literally change their entire play style with the flip of a mental switch. @_@
     
  3. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad
    Expand Collapse
     

    • Moderator
    • Premium
    • Back Roomer
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Messages:
    24,055
    Location:
    Dallas, TX

    People with MPD don't usually have control over it.
     
  4. Bones0

    Bones0
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    10,955
    Location:
    Jarrettsville, MD
    Therapy often starts with teaching people to switch between their personalities.
     
  5. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad
    Expand Collapse
     

    • Moderator
    • Premium
    • Back Roomer
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Messages:
    24,055
    Location:
    Dallas, TX

    I can't study MPD frame data. [/johns]
     
  6. Winston

    Winston
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Master

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2006
    Messages:
    3,563
    Location:
    Seattle, WA (slightly north of U-District)
    Why would swiss make this more likely to happen than double elim, assuming that seeding is used to make pairings among the people of the same record?

    And I still don't see how a larger tournament makes a mediocre player receiving an easy bracket any more likely than a small tournament does. Isn't it more likely that an abnormally easy bracket occur for a 3 round swiss than a 10 round one? It seems like you're making an assumption about the distribution of skilled players in small tournaments vs. large ones, as opposed it being an inherent trait to large swiss tournaments.

    Within the context of smash, there's so little variance in match outcomes with regards to skill tiers in smash that after 6 rounds or so of a 300 person tournament, I doubt that very many of the X-0s and X-1s would look out of place in the bracket of a national. Again, I'm assuming that seeding takes place because we're comparing this to our current pools + double elim system, which uses seeding.
     
  7. JPOBS

    JPOBS
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Messages:
    5,824
    Location:
    Mos Eisley
    That's not true. Being mad and activating your sympathetic system heightens your focus. you become more attentative to details and stimuli, not less so as you would with tunnel vision.

    But hey, im arguing with the warrior spirit, science has no place here.
     
  8. Divinokage

    Divinokage
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2006
    Messages:
    16,246
    Location:
    Montreal, Quebec
    Nah, you are arguing something that obviously we've all seen what being mad does to people. I'm sure you saw enough times that when you focus too much on the thing you messed up then pretty much the battle is over for you. I don't know what kind of "mad" you are trying to explain here. How do you get mad in the first place if there's nothing wrong?
     
  9. Prince_Abu

    Prince_Abu
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2009
    Messages:
    1,007
    Location:
    Columbus OH / West Bloomfield MI
    what do u guys do when ur in shield and the enemy sheik is right in front of u jabbing and waiting for u to do something like shl so they can kill u
     
  10. Druggedfox

    Druggedfox
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Champion

    Joined:
    May 13, 2007
    Messages:
    2,665
    Location:
    Atlanta
    If she's jabbing you should CC grab it. When you're in shield just hold down and mash A. If she's not necessarily jabbing and you want to escape pressure, you can always WD OoS: this is probably the best general option. If she's at mid % and she's a bit too close you could probably just upsmash OoS and say gtfo. I personally don't like rolling in this situation because sheik can follow on reaction pretty easily, but I won't say that rolling can't be good in any situation.
     
  11. Mew2King

    Mew2King
    Expand Collapse
    King of the Mews

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2002
    Messages:
    11,283
    Location:
    Cinnaminson (southwest NJ 5 min drive from Philly)
    just CC shield grab
     
  12. KirbyKaze

    KirbyKaze
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2007
    Messages:
    17,678
    Location:
    Spiral Mountain
    Most people I know (myself included) get pretty irrational when seriously angry about something. And while I may be more focused, I'm unsure the trade off (thinking significantly less logically) is productive in a game like smash where lapses in judgment can easily get you killed.

    I'm generally an advocate of balance when it comes to emotional stuff (although I should really try to take my own advice more often) so thinking so much in extremes seems kind of weird. It reminds me dimly of the "tech skill vs. strategy" discussions and their ilk.
     
  13. Umbreon

    Umbreon
    Expand Collapse
    Moonlight Pokémon

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2002
    Messages:
    15,531

    we're all women. i still get mad when i play. hell, i was playing project m (not even melee) and i was still getting mad.

    all of my best wins came from being dead neutral in mindset.
     
  14. Pi

    Pi
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2008
    Messages:
    6,038
    Location:
    Lake Mary, Florida
    hm i wasn't saying like...actually getting mad DURING the set
    that hasn't ever really done me any good
    but i meant more of taking your losses hard, after the fact
    like that last stock you lose just kills you, but up to that point you had been pretty collected
     
  15. JPOBS

    JPOBS
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Messages:
    5,824
    Location:
    Mos Eisley
    Maybe it's just me, but when I focus more on playing, I mess up less, not more.

    I'm talking about being mad, and salty, because you realize the power to win in completely in your control. That kind of mad you get when you lose a match on yoshi's because randall messed you up, then you go back to yoshi's and totally destroy them. I'm sure this is has happened to everyone. its a totally biologcal thing.

    I'm not talking about the kind of mad where its like, you're frustrated with your opponent's playstyle so you start to do stupid things like blindly fsmash them out of rage.
    I don't even know what you're talking about here
     
  16. flaw

    flaw
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    May 31, 2009
    Messages:
    197
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    I agree with jpobs, there's stupid mad and dangerous focused mad. When I get angry I use it as motivation to stay calm but the adrenaline sort of slows the game down and I get better.
     
  17. Fortress | Sveet

    Fortress | Sveet
    Expand Collapse
    ▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀

    • Premium
    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2005
    Messages:
    16,243
    Location:
    Northern IL

    Theres also just focused, not mad. Some of the best ive ever played is when in my mind i dont even take the time to have emotions while the game is happening. Any moment spent being upset about a mistake or happy about a lead is time wasted that could be spent analyzing patterns or finding better solutions.

    edit- this is a really hard mindset to maintain or even get on command, but there is actually a large amount of scientific(-ish) data about the phenomenon. One of my favorites is in day[9]'s daily #100 (my life as a starcraft player) where he talks about his first tournament final victory. He described it as seeing his victory before it came and then standing outside of his body as his hands and eyes executed it.
     
  18. Divinokage

    Divinokage
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2006
    Messages:
    16,246
    Location:
    Montreal, Quebec
    Focused mad / salty? Hmm.. I have to be passed that point because I really don't feel these things anymore lol. To me everything is happy. =)
     
  19. choknater

    choknater
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Obsessed

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    27,286
    Location:
    Modesto, CA
    NNID:
    choknater
    i get salty for sure, but i never get mad/angry in an aggressive way
     
  20. Veetaak

    Veetaak
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    May 11, 2010
    Messages:
    1,120
    Location:
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Just don't get frustrated cuz then your whole body will start itching (IT'S ANNOYING)
     
  21. ShroudedOne

    ShroudedOne
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    • Premium
    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2011
    Messages:
    5,492
    I don't know why that happens, but it does to me too when I get angry. It's weird.
     
  22. Dr Peepee

    Dr Peepee
    Expand Collapse
    Building Drive....

    • Moderator
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2007
    Messages:
    25,680
    Location:
    Raleigh, North Carolina
    Emotional Play

    Is there a personal "best" for every person though? Should we all be more engaged or should we reserve ourselves just a little more and stick to analyzing things? There seem to be benefits for both mindsets, and I feel like someone could be successful at times and fail at times using a more emotional mindset, a more reserved mindset, and one that attempts to balance everything. With an emotional mindset, I believe you will be able to push your reaction time farther because you will be hyperfocused on the match due to how invested you are in it, but it may be at the cost of reads or exposing your own predictability. With a more reserved mindset, I believe you can spend more time playing calmly and reading, but you may get too caught up in this and possibly sacrifice a reaction for more assurance of a possible better read in the future. Finally, with a balanced mindset, I think the biggest problem with this one is people would try too hard for balance and end up swinging too much one way or the other at different times. they may even begin to focus on this balance more than the match itself(which seems somewhat common for people to struggle with, myself included every so often).

    So, what do I think the best way to handle this issue is? In short, I believe the best way to control emotion is to regulate it whenever possible but have the overall control to know when to let it flow as well. This may sound like a balance prospect, but I am talking about intentionally swinging between one end of the emotional spectrum and another on purpose rather than slightly deviating from the middle of it because of the difficulty it takes to control emotion in a given match.

    An example of how I would execute such a strategy is this:

    I begin a set, and I use the first stock or maybe two to slowly feel out my opponent and use it to settle in to the pressure of the set. Then, once I have determined how my opponent would respond to all of my setups, I then switch them up and use an emotional, highly reactive state of mind and take control of the tempo of the match. Not only will this throw my opponent completely off guard, but it could give me the momentum I need to turn around the game if I am losing or break the opponent for the set if I am winning.

    I am not saying this strategy(or its execution) is foolproof, but it does account for ordinary human fluctuations in emotion and still seems to grant the benefits of both emotion and control while minimizing their weaknesses. There is also the fact that people and their emotions behave very differently from mine or those of anyone who reads this wall, so they may have to come up with their own effective answers. I think this is a solid, competitive suggestion to test out though, and I am hoping to do so myself in future majors. I have noticed a sharp difference in my play overall when I am calm and when I am confident or super focused on winning(reads and safety vs reaction and risks basically), so I urge anyone reading to experiment with their own emotional play and observe the results.

    If she's close, try to CC shield grab(shield and hold down and mash A). If she's farther away, then you can try to CC punish OOS(mash A and down for a Dtilt for example). You could also just roll away or WD OOS but it all depends on how frequent the jabs are and the spacing.

    Yeah that's a fair analogy. I believe this is a separate facet of smash play that is influenced by and in turn influences these other aspects of smash though, including how you learn. It's pretty important to get a handle on for a variety of reasons(including handling pressure).
     
    Lord Renning and Zparkly like this.
  23. Bones0

    Bones0
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    10,955
    Location:
    Jarrettsville, MD
    Sort of related to the emotions concept.
     
  24. ShroudedOne

    ShroudedOne
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    • Premium
    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2011
    Messages:
    5,492
    I dunno about that, only because whenever I go into a match thinking that my opponent is stupid, I get handled. I try to go in assuming as little as possible, besides what their character will do in the matchup, and go from there (unless I know them, already).
     
  25. Stevo

    Stevo
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Champion

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2004
    Messages:
    2,473
    Location:
    150km north of nowhere, Canada
    I'm at work so I wasn't able to fully read everything that was said so far, but it seems like people are not really talking about getting nervous.
    I'm not as bad now, but I used to get hella nervous when I played. So much so that I play a lot better in friendlies. It is something I have needed to work on and never fully overcome.

    I would say being nervous or angry is bad for your smash play, whereas focused or determined would be the good flipside of those emotions.

    If you are a nervous player, I would say try to channel your focus and ignore expectations and situations etc.

    if you are an angry player, channel your rage to figuring out how to win like you probably feel you should or deserve.

    I guess it sounds pretty obvious, but it can be easier said than done
     
  26. Bones0

    Bones0
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    10,955
    Location:
    Jarrettsville, MD
    To add to that, I think channeling your emotions in a positive way can help eliminate a lot of nervousness. When I am salty/mad, it tends to make me that much more focused, and the more focused I am on the game, the less room there is for random thoughts such as ("oh no, I hope I don't mess up this simple tech I've done a million times," etc.). I think everyone when they first start out experiences a lot of "in their head" thinking that messes you up really bad. I know I've taken it to the point where I was thinking about a conversation two people were having behind me instead of actually playing. Even if those sort of thoughts only last for a brief period, it can easily lead to stock losses, or even ruin your concentration as it carries into the next game.
     
  27. Rubyiris

    Rubyiris
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,033
    Location:
    Tucson, AZ.
    This is a very difficult subject to explain over a messages board. If you could add me to aim MSN etc I'd be happy to discuss it further.

    :phone:
     
  28. metaivan

    metaivan
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Messages:
    76
    what is OoS ?
     
  29. Rubyiris

    Rubyiris
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,033
    Location:
    Tucson, AZ.

    Thanks fir the advice.

    I just wanted to say that my personal goal is to actually decrease the amount of lasers I shot. Yes, I know its counter productive, but my goal is to be the best that I can be on my terms.

    :phone:
     
  30. Life

    Life
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    5,263
    Location:
    Grieving No Longer
    As an aspiring music major, maybe I can offer something on the whole "emotions" subject.

    When people ask me how not to be nervous on stage (not to brag, but apparently some people with credibility think I'm a good horn player or something) I usually respond that I'm focusing too much on playing well to think about there being a crowd in front of me. However, being a *great* musician is a pretty emotional thing. You have to totally feel some emotions (sadness, happiness, "epicness", whatever), but at the same time block others (such as nerves, or anything inappropriate for what you're playing). If you totally let your emotion handle you, though, you get distracted and screw up technical things (fingerings, partials, etc.) which ends REALLY badly. So music requires a lot of emotional control: you need to not feel some things, and feel controlled amounts of other things, all without losing focus on what you're doing.

    Melee is probably the same: shut out whatever clouds your focus and judgment (tournament pressure, the fight you just had with your SO, being mad because you've just been on the end of an infinite ICs chaingrab, knowing your opponent is PPMD (;)), whatever), and harness whatever enhances your focus and decision making (ever had a "gut feeling" about something? That's an emotion, too).

    tl;dr Incom assumes real life and Melee work the same way as musicianship
     
  31. Bones0

    Bones0
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    10,955
    Location:
    Jarrettsville, MD
    Out of shield. So like if someone says shine OoS, it just means they are shielding, then they jump, and then they shine as soon as possible.
     
  32. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad
    Expand Collapse
     

    • Moderator
    • Premium
    • Back Roomer
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Messages:
    24,055
    Location:
    Dallas, TX

    out of state
    wavedash out of state imo
     
  33. Big Pookie

    Big Pookie
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    180
    Location:
    Auburn, WA
    So I've been trying mixups getting off the ledge lately - how does a WL back off the stage and DJ Dair work as a mixup? I dont get to play against really strong opponents a lot so I'm not sure if its fast enough or if it is easily reacted to. I prefer it more with falcon but I've been trying it with falco with pretty good results.


    WD out of state is my favorite camping tactic actually, dont ruin it for me
     
  34. noobird

    noobird
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2010
    Messages:
    244
    I feel like this doesn't work for falco because . . .

    1) I don't think you'll still be invincible in the middle of your wl back? Falcon stays invincible for a short bit (someone correct me if I'm wrong) but I doubt falco would.

    2) you can get hit out of that dj dair really easily --> falco screwed.

    I haven't really tried it yet so I can't say if those are valid but maybe I'll go do that lol
     
  35. Legend4ryFlower

    Legend4ryFlower
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2011
    Messages:
    63
    Great post PP.. as usual.

    "Emotional" is of course very general as you used it. It seems like frustration is an emotion that you would never want to entertain, as it not only prevents you from seeing everything "as it is," it also causes physical tension in your whole body which restricts blood flow to the brain and lowers your reaction times.

    I would just say to watch out for things (thought processes, attitudes, or "emotions") that cause physical tension.

    This from a wc3 and sc2 player. Yell at me if I'm wrong, but I think this is important and needs to be understood further. Of course there was a lot left unsaid in PP's post, and everything I said was just to try and prevent false implications from being drawn.

    My personal philosophy as a player is just to "let go," and it has given me success so far =)
     
  36. Dr Peepee

    Dr Peepee
    Expand Collapse
    Building Drive....

    • Moderator
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2007
    Messages:
    25,680
    Location:
    Raleigh, North Carolina
    Yeah ideally when you get focus or emotionally charged you wouldn't tense up, but that's kind of tough under pressure situations haha. I suppose it's something that we could all afford to work on though.

    Good point. =)
     
  37. Legend4ryFlower

    Legend4ryFlower
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2011
    Messages:
    63
    If you disagree with me, just say it instead of saying "I suppose" <______<

    TELL ME IM WRONG NOW!!
     
  38. Dr Peepee

    Dr Peepee
    Expand Collapse
    Building Drive....

    • Moderator
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2007
    Messages:
    25,680
    Location:
    Raleigh, North Carolina
    LOL I'm not going to tell you you're wrong simply because I don't have all the answers about emotional play. Tensing up is bad, you're right, but that can come from more than frustration I feel. Any time I've focused hard in Melee, I've tensed up and missed things and even lost circulation to my hands(hmm....that explains that I suppose lol). Basically I'm splitting hairs more than actually disagreeing with you I feel haha.
     
  39. Druggedfox

    Druggedfox
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Champion

    Joined:
    May 13, 2007
    Messages:
    2,665
    Location:
    Atlanta
    He's on to you!!!! Runnnnnn, quick PP.

    Oh wait falco's slow

    :troll:
     
  40. Legend4ryFlower

    Legend4ryFlower
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2011
    Messages:
    63
    But I was the one splitting hairs......

    and the keratin in your hair only has 2 alpha chains to split apart!

    Please tell me how you're cleaving amino acids in half, I'd like to know.

    Yeah but pretty much, I just dont see there's a way to feel a lot of emotion without inhibiting brain function. I just find it easier to play without distractions, and I feel like emotions are just that. I wouldnt call that feeling of being in your "zone" an emotion.. so maybe this is all just syntax.
     

Share This Page

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)

We know you don't like ads
Why not buy Premium?