Falco Discussion Thread

Rubyiris

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The only time I was ever emotionally numb I played pretty much perfectly. I've never been able to replicate that feeling though. It was simultaniously the worst I have ever felt, and one of.the most euphoric feelings ever.

The reason why more entrants makes it easier for lesser players is because of easier overall brackets. It is common in very large-scale tournaments for someone mediocre to coast through Swiss and outplace a better player with a more difficult overall bracket.

Just to note that im just using the word bracket for the group of people you play through the x amount of rounds of Swiss. Also the argument im making doesn't have to do with ties. Its having so many players that someone who has.no business topping will likely do so due to variance.
:phone:
 

Bones0

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I want to see a pregnant woman play Melee. Or maybe someone with multiple personality disorder. If only someone could consciously switch between their personalities to play multiple characters with multiple play styles. It'd be so hard to adapt to them because they could literally change their entire play style with the flip of a mental switch. @_@
 

Winston

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The reason why more entrants makes it easier for lesser players is because of easier overall brackets. It is common in very large-scale tournaments for someone mediocre to coast through Swiss and outplace a better player with a more difficult overall bracket.
Why would swiss make this more likely to happen than double elim, assuming that seeding is used to make pairings among the people of the same record?

And I still don't see how a larger tournament makes a mediocre player receiving an easy bracket any more likely than a small tournament does. Isn't it more likely that an abnormally easy bracket occur for a 3 round swiss than a 10 round one? It seems like you're making an assumption about the distribution of skilled players in small tournaments vs. large ones, as opposed it being an inherent trait to large swiss tournaments.

Within the context of smash, there's so little variance in match outcomes with regards to skill tiers in smash that after 6 rounds or so of a 300 person tournament, I doubt that very many of the X-0s and X-1s would look out of place in the bracket of a national. Again, I'm assuming that seeding takes place because we're comparing this to our current pools + double elim system, which uses seeding.
 

JPOBS

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Ya but you also get tunnel vision when you are mad so that's not very good. To me if you stay calm and just do what you need to do, it's a lot better.
That's not true. Being mad and activating your sympathetic system heightens your focus. you become more attentative to details and stimuli, not less so as you would with tunnel vision.

But hey, im arguing with the warrior spirit, science has no place here.
 

Divinokage

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That's not true. Being mad and activating your sympathetic system heightens your focus. you become more attentative to details and stimuli, not less so as you would with tunnel vision.

But hey, im arguing with the warrior spirit, science has no place here.
Nah, you are arguing something that obviously we've all seen what being mad does to people. I'm sure you saw enough times that when you focus too much on the thing you messed up then pretty much the battle is over for you. I don't know what kind of "mad" you are trying to explain here. How do you get mad in the first place if there's nothing wrong?
 

Druggedfox

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If she's jabbing you should CC grab it. When you're in shield just hold down and mash A. If she's not necessarily jabbing and you want to escape pressure, you can always WD OoS: this is probably the best general option. If she's at mid % and she's a bit too close you could probably just upsmash OoS and say gtfo. I personally don't like rolling in this situation because sheik can follow on reaction pretty easily, but I won't say that rolling can't be good in any situation.
 

KirbyKaze

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Most people I know (myself included) get pretty irrational when seriously angry about something. And while I may be more focused, I'm unsure the trade off (thinking significantly less logically) is productive in a game like smash where lapses in judgment can easily get you killed.

I'm generally an advocate of balance when it comes to emotional stuff (although I should really try to take my own advice more often) so thinking so much in extremes seems kind of weird. It reminds me dimly of the "tech skill vs. strategy" discussions and their ilk.
 

Umbreon

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we're all women. i still get mad when i play. hell, i was playing project m (not even melee) and i was still getting mad.

all of my best wins came from being dead neutral in mindset.
 

Pi

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hm i wasn't saying like...actually getting mad DURING the set
that hasn't ever really done me any good
but i meant more of taking your losses hard, after the fact
like that last stock you lose just kills you, but up to that point you had been pretty collected
 

JPOBS

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Nah, you are arguing something that obviously we've all seen what being mad does to people. I'm sure you saw enough times that when you focus too much on the thing you messed up then pretty much the battle is over for you.
Maybe it's just me, but when I focus more on playing, I mess up less, not more.

I don't know what kind of "mad" you are trying to explain here.
I'm talking about being mad, and salty, because you realize the power to win in completely in your control. That kind of mad you get when you lose a match on yoshi's because randall messed you up, then you go back to yoshi's and totally destroy them. I'm sure this is has happened to everyone. its a totally biologcal thing.

I'm not talking about the kind of mad where its like, you're frustrated with your opponent's playstyle so you start to do stupid things like blindly fsmash them out of rage.
How do you get mad in the first place if there's nothing wrong?
I don't even know what you're talking about here
 

flaw

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I agree with jpobs, there's stupid mad and dangerous focused mad. When I get angry I use it as motivation to stay calm but the adrenaline sort of slows the game down and I get better.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Theres also just focused, not mad. Some of the best ive ever played is when in my mind i dont even take the time to have emotions while the game is happening. Any moment spent being upset about a mistake or happy about a lead is time wasted that could be spent analyzing patterns or finding better solutions.

edit- this is a really hard mindset to maintain or even get on command, but there is actually a large amount of scientific(-ish) data about the phenomenon. One of my favorites is in day[9]'s daily #100 (my life as a starcraft player) where he talks about his first tournament final victory. He described it as seeing his victory before it came and then standing outside of his body as his hands and eyes executed it.
 

Dr Peepee

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Emotional Play

Extremes are generally bad things. Too much emotion clouds judgment, but none at all can wear away your mental resolve (it's very taxing for some people to block out everything entirely) and it prevents you from really 'feeling' what's going on. I find sometimes, for me, it's almost like playing with cold hands-- but in a mental way.

Somewhere in the middle, there's gotta be an ideal (and it probably varies from person to person 'cuz we're weird like that). There's gotta be a place where you've achieved enough emotional involvement to be engaged in the match in a meaningful way, while simultaneously not getting caught up in the heat of the moment and making rash decisions based on raw emotions.

People are strange.
Is there a personal "best" for every person though? Should we all be more engaged or should we reserve ourselves just a little more and stick to analyzing things? There seem to be benefits for both mindsets, and I feel like someone could be successful at times and fail at times using a more emotional mindset, a more reserved mindset, and one that attempts to balance everything. With an emotional mindset, I believe you will be able to push your reaction time farther because you will be hyperfocused on the match due to how invested you are in it, but it may be at the cost of reads or exposing your own predictability. With a more reserved mindset, I believe you can spend more time playing calmly and reading, but you may get too caught up in this and possibly sacrifice a reaction for more assurance of a possible better read in the future. Finally, with a balanced mindset, I think the biggest problem with this one is people would try too hard for balance and end up swinging too much one way or the other at different times. they may even begin to focus on this balance more than the match itself(which seems somewhat common for people to struggle with, myself included every so often).

So, what do I think the best way to handle this issue is? In short, I believe the best way to control emotion is to regulate it whenever possible but have the overall control to know when to let it flow as well. This may sound like a balance prospect, but I am talking about intentionally swinging between one end of the emotional spectrum and another on purpose rather than slightly deviating from the middle of it because of the difficulty it takes to control emotion in a given match.

An example of how I would execute such a strategy is this:

I begin a set, and I use the first stock or maybe two to slowly feel out my opponent and use it to settle in to the pressure of the set. Then, once I have determined how my opponent would respond to all of my setups, I then switch them up and use an emotional, highly reactive state of mind and take control of the tempo of the match. Not only will this throw my opponent completely off guard, but it could give me the momentum I need to turn around the game if I am losing or break the opponent for the set if I am winning.

I am not saying this strategy(or its execution) is foolproof, but it does account for ordinary human fluctuations in emotion and still seems to grant the benefits of both emotion and control while minimizing their weaknesses. There is also the fact that people and their emotions behave very differently from mine or those of anyone who reads this wall, so they may have to come up with their own effective answers. I think this is a solid, competitive suggestion to test out though, and I am hoping to do so myself in future majors. I have noticed a sharp difference in my play overall when I am calm and when I am confident or super focused on winning(reads and safety vs reaction and risks basically), so I urge anyone reading to experiment with their own emotional play and observe the results.

what do u guys do when ur in shield and the enemy sheik is right in front of u jabbing and waiting for u to do something like shl so they can kill u
If she's close, try to CC shield grab(shield and hold down and mash A). If she's farther away, then you can try to CC punish OOS(mash A and down for a Dtilt for example). You could also just roll away or WD OOS but it all depends on how frequent the jabs are and the spacing.

Most people I know (myself included) get pretty irrational when seriously angry about something. And while I may be more focused, I'm unsure the trade off (thinking significantly less logically) is productive in a game like smash where lapses in judgment can easily get you killed.

I'm generally an advocate of balance when it comes to emotional stuff (although I should really try to take my own advice more often) so thinking so much in extremes seems kind of weird. It reminds me dimly of the "tech skill vs. strategy" discussions and their ilk.
Yeah that's a fair analogy. I believe this is a separate facet of smash play that is influenced by and in turn influences these other aspects of smash though, including how you learn. It's pretty important to get a handle on for a variety of reasons(including handling pressure).
 

Bones0

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You almost have to view your opponent as inferior and stupid, and when I go into games with that mentality it's like my brain picks up on their inferior/stupid decisions much more easily because I expect them to be there. It's like walking down the street and finding a dollar bill by sheer chance vs. walking down the street looking over every inch for every dime you can find.

If you're focused on the match as an objective subject, you'll come to the conclusion that you probably won't win, and your brain just subconsciously takes note of every time you get outplayed and it takes too big of a toll on your focus. That's just how I tend to think about it, but I just naturally have this mindset so I'm not sure if it's actually recommended for people to try to force themselves into it because I definitely don't think it's the only kind of mindset that can lead to improvement. With some aspects of the game, it seems easier to improve when I approach it with a sort of robotic attitude of no emotions at all. That's sort of how my brain is when I'm practicing tech skill because I am concerned with consistency above all, or if I am doing guaranteed stuff like tech chasing or chain grabbing where all I have to do is read DI and punish.
Sort of related to the emotions concept.
 

ShroudedOne

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I dunno about that, only because whenever I go into a match thinking that my opponent is stupid, I get handled. I try to go in assuming as little as possible, besides what their character will do in the matchup, and go from there (unless I know them, already).
 

Stevo

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I'm at work so I wasn't able to fully read everything that was said so far, but it seems like people are not really talking about getting nervous.
I'm not as bad now, but I used to get hella nervous when I played. So much so that I play a lot better in friendlies. It is something I have needed to work on and never fully overcome.

I would say being nervous or angry is bad for your smash play, whereas focused or determined would be the good flipside of those emotions.

If you are a nervous player, I would say try to channel your focus and ignore expectations and situations etc.

if you are an angry player, channel your rage to figuring out how to win like you probably feel you should or deserve.

I guess it sounds pretty obvious, but it can be easier said than done
 

Bones0

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To add to that, I think channeling your emotions in a positive way can help eliminate a lot of nervousness. When I am salty/mad, it tends to make me that much more focused, and the more focused I am on the game, the less room there is for random thoughts such as ("oh no, I hope I don't mess up this simple tech I've done a million times," etc.). I think everyone when they first start out experiences a lot of "in their head" thinking that messes you up really bad. I know I've taken it to the point where I was thinking about a conversation two people were having behind me instead of actually playing. Even if those sort of thoughts only last for a brief period, it can easily lead to stock losses, or even ruin your concentration as it carries into the next game.
 

Rubyiris

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Why would swiss make this more likely to happen than double elim, assuming that seeding is used to make pairings among the people of the same record?

And I still don't see how a larger tournament makes a mediocre player receiving an easy bracket any more likely than a small tournament does. Isn't it more likely that an abnormally easy bracket occur for a 3 round swiss than a 10 round one? It seems like you're making an assumption about the distribution of skilled players in small tournaments vs. large ones, as opposed it being an inherent trait to large swiss tournaments.

Within the context of smash, there's so little variance in match outcomes with regards to skill tiers in smash that after 6 rounds or so of a 300 person tournament, I doubt that very many of the X-0s and X-1s would look out of place in the bracket of a national. Again, I'm assuming that seeding takes place because we're comparing this to our current pools + double elim system, which uses seeding.
This is a very difficult subject to explain over a messages board. If you could add me to aim MSN etc I'd be happy to discuss it further.

:phone:
 

Rubyiris

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You should laser a lot more vs. Luigi. It just makes the matchup 10x easier since he can't approach with WDs on the ground, and he drifts too slowly to approach with aerials unless he is already close. If you take him to YS, remember Luigi is mad floaty so you can double shine him off the top. You only did it on the last stock, but he'll die at 18% / 39% / 61% on the top plat / side plats / stage, so it's almost comparable to gimping.

Thanks fir the advice.

I just wanted to say that my personal goal is to actually decrease the amount of lasers I shot. Yes, I know its counter productive, but my goal is to be the best that I can be on my terms.

:phone:
 

Life

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As an aspiring music major, maybe I can offer something on the whole "emotions" subject.

When people ask me how not to be nervous on stage (not to brag, but apparently some people with credibility think I'm a good horn player or something) I usually respond that I'm focusing too much on playing well to think about there being a crowd in front of me. However, being a *great* musician is a pretty emotional thing. You have to totally feel some emotions (sadness, happiness, "epicness", whatever), but at the same time block others (such as nerves, or anything inappropriate for what you're playing). If you totally let your emotion handle you, though, you get distracted and screw up technical things (fingerings, partials, etc.) which ends REALLY badly. So music requires a lot of emotional control: you need to not feel some things, and feel controlled amounts of other things, all without losing focus on what you're doing.

Melee is probably the same: shut out whatever clouds your focus and judgment (tournament pressure, the fight you just had with your SO, being mad because you've just been on the end of an infinite ICs chaingrab, knowing your opponent is PPMD (;)), whatever), and harness whatever enhances your focus and decision making (ever had a "gut feeling" about something? That's an emotion, too).

tl;dr Incom assumes real life and Melee work the same way as musicianship
 

Big Pookie

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So I've been trying mixups getting off the ledge lately - how does a WL back off the stage and DJ Dair work as a mixup? I dont get to play against really strong opponents a lot so I'm not sure if its fast enough or if it is easily reacted to. I prefer it more with falcon but I've been trying it with falco with pretty good results.


WD out of state is my favorite camping tactic actually, dont ruin it for me
 

noobird

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I feel like this doesn't work for falco because . . .

1) I don't think you'll still be invincible in the middle of your wl back? Falcon stays invincible for a short bit (someone correct me if I'm wrong) but I doubt falco would.

2) you can get hit out of that dj dair really easily --> falco screwed.

I haven't really tried it yet so I can't say if those are valid but maybe I'll go do that lol
 
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Great post PP.. as usual.

"Emotional" is of course very general as you used it. It seems like frustration is an emotion that you would never want to entertain, as it not only prevents you from seeing everything "as it is," it also causes physical tension in your whole body which restricts blood flow to the brain and lowers your reaction times.

I would just say to watch out for things (thought processes, attitudes, or "emotions") that cause physical tension.

This from a wc3 and sc2 player. Yell at me if I'm wrong, but I think this is important and needs to be understood further. Of course there was a lot left unsaid in PP's post, and everything I said was just to try and prevent false implications from being drawn.

My personal philosophy as a player is just to "let go," and it has given me success so far =)
 

Dr Peepee

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Yeah ideally when you get focus or emotionally charged you wouldn't tense up, but that's kind of tough under pressure situations haha. I suppose it's something that we could all afford to work on though.

Good point. =)
 
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Yeah ideally when you get focus or emotionally charged you wouldn't tense up, but that's kind of tough under pressure situations haha. I suppose it's something that we could all afford to work on though.

Good point. =)
If you disagree with me, just say it instead of saying "I suppose" <______<

TELL ME IM WRONG NOW!!
 

Dr Peepee

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LOL I'm not going to tell you you're wrong simply because I don't have all the answers about emotional play. Tensing up is bad, you're right, but that can come from more than frustration I feel. Any time I've focused hard in Melee, I've tensed up and missed things and even lost circulation to my hands(hmm....that explains that I suppose lol). Basically I'm splitting hairs more than actually disagreeing with you I feel haha.
 
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LOL I'm not going to tell you you're wrong simply because I don't have all the answers about emotional play. Tensing up is bad, you're right, but that can come from more than frustration I feel. Any time I've focused hard in Melee, I've tensed up and missed things and even lost circulation to my hands(hmm....that explains that I suppose lol). Basically I'm splitting hairs more than actually disagreeing with you I feel haha.
But I was the one splitting hairs......

and the keratin in your hair only has 2 alpha chains to split apart!

Please tell me how you're cleaving amino acids in half, I'd like to know.

Yeah but pretty much, I just dont see there's a way to feel a lot of emotion without inhibiting brain function. I just find it easier to play without distractions, and I feel like emotions are just that. I wouldnt call that feeling of being in your "zone" an emotion.. so maybe this is all just syntax.
 
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