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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Varist

Smash Lord
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Feb 7, 2011
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Austin
Re: Re: your friends
I said "just don't let me hit you with it" when they groaned about d-air lol. i get what you're saying.

Re: Re: combos
I've seen a lot of PP and Mango videos, and I watch falco short hop dair to shine like a hundred times a match, but then they dair to utilt a hundred times, and I don't know the reasoning behind wanting to get them back up with u-tilt instead of shine or vice versa, in situations when both could've worked. I'm having a harder time incorporating shine because it doesn't give you as much room for error as utilt or dtilt or (kind of) jab reset, so I want to know what the safest time to dair shine is or when (%) to look for dair shines instead of etc. PP seems to just do it, I can't find consistencies there.

I've been training sort of that way lol, it's how I've had to learn this game. I can 0-death a bowser all day, Fox is harder, but I try to pillar for as long as possible even against random DI (I don't restart matches when I'm training, I just sort of barrel through match after match trying to 10-stock, usually 8-stock)

Thank you very much for the advice genkaku.

edit: Location is AZ because it's my closest active tournament-holding region (NM is filled to the brim with brawl), I'm only like ~190 miles from SV. I'm in El Paso, TX, wrong side of the state as far as Melee is concerned.
 

choknater

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there is always a ton of trait influence in ganon players LOL you can realllly see/feel it when you play their falcons.
 
G

genkaku

Guest
Re: Re: your friends
I said "just don't let me hit you with it" when they groaned about d-air lol. i get what you're saying.

Re: Re: combos
I've seen a lot of PP and Mango videos, and I watch falco short hop dair to shine like a hundred times a match, but then they dair to utilt a hundred times, and I don't know the reasoning behind wanting to get them back up with u-tilt instead of shine or vice versa, in situations when both could've worked. I'm having a harder time incorporating shine because it doesn't give you as much room for error as utilt or dtilt or (kind of) jab reset, so I want to know what the safest time to dair shine is or when (%) to look for dair shines instead of etc. PP seems to just do it, I can't find consistencies there.

I've been training sort of that way lol, it's how I've had to learn this game. I can 0-death a bowser all day, Fox is harder, but I try to pillar for as long as possible even against random DI (I don't restart matches when I'm training, I just sort of barrel through match after match trying to 10-stock, usually 8-stock)

Thank you very much for the advice genkaku.

edit: Location is AZ because it's my closest active tournament-holding region (NM is filled to the brim with brawl), I'm only like ~190 miles from SV. I'm in El Paso, TX, wrong side of the state as far as Melee is concerned.
utilt and shine are kind of interchangeable but kind of not at all, haha. The main difference is that shine is safer 'cause you can do stuff out of it (another shine, grab, wavedash, etc.) and it's fast and utilt has a larger range. Utilt when shine won't hit, otherwise shine is better for the time being. Get fast waveshines, you'll need them. Shine on shields. Never utilt it, you're not puff, lol. Dtilt is not a good move to get into the habit of using. It's slow and will be punished as your friends start to play faster. In your situation of learning the game I'm tempted to say that there's pretty much always going to be a better option.
It's tough stuff to pick up on, yeah, but it makes more sense the more you play and think about it. You've got 10 years of metagame to sift through when watching PP and mango play. You've obviously going to have trouble digesting it. Me too, haha.
I say 0-death fox get hit reset because it teaches you a lot of different things. Plus reseting after getting jabbed is mad annoying, so you learn fast, lol.
a) you learn how to combo effectively because
b) you want to get that kill really fast and efficiently so as not leave them any room to escape/fight back. (i.e. endless pillars look and feel great, but aren't going to help you get better. 7 step combos for the kill will. The point of a combo is for one move to set up for the next x number of moves to set up for you being in a better position to get the kill. Obviously killing someone at 40% is better than at 140%, but sometimes it's hard to remember that 'cause we get so caught up thinking about just hitting crap with more moves instead of actually doing anything with those moves like forcing the opponent offstage, lol.)
c) you learn how to space so that you don't get hit but can get in and out quickly.
d) l-cancels. If you miss an l-cancel you probably get jabbed and that sucks, but in higher levels you can totally lose a stock for the same thing so it's realistic, lol.
e) I had someone tell me once that if you can combo fox then you can combo anyone if you just slow it down and think harder. Not totally true, but if you can't 0-death fox in like, less than 15 seconds tops, then you aren't going to be able to take full advantage of combo opportunities when you have them on anyone.
 

onionchowder

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Somebody should really make an archive of PP posts, for future reference.

Coming into Melee as an amateur Brawl player (Diddy and DK), there were a few habits I brought over. I do a lot of jab->smash and jab->grab with all my characters (besides Mewtwo, 'cause his jab is 30 frames long). I also do a lot of defensive Bairs, Utilts and up-angled Ftilts against aerial approaches (most notably Falcon), as well as spacing Ftilts on shields. I also like running off the stage and then DJ->Bairing back on, but it's incredibly punishable if predicted.

Against floaties at high %s, after knocking them up in the air but not killing, I like to jump up and up-B at them (or fake it and go back to the ground). People often try to beat out the up-B with a Dair, but a trade will usually kill them, and even if you miss you can land on the ground before they do. Not really drawn from another character, just a trick I like.

P.S. -- proud to have made that "stupid mango dash-dance video" =P
 

Bones0

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If anyone wishes to discuss other mechanics of other characters and how it has translated to their own mains(or even if they wish to discuss DD'ing!) then I would be very interested in hearing such stories. =)
OMG I'm so glad you brought up this topic! I was actually just posting in a thread in Melee discussion (HERE) which was a new player trying to decide between playing Marth and Falco. The thread has most of what you hear these days: suggestions telling people to pick one character and stick with it. While I obviously understand the benefits of dedicating yourself to one character, I've always felt it is a highly overrated way of learning to play, ESPECIALLY for new players. My post:

I'm sure most people will suggest new players to stick with just one character, but I've never been too fond of that approach. Obviously if you just play one character all the time you'll understand their matchups better and faster, but Melee is such a deep game that when you're first starting out, playing multiple characters isn't going to hurt your game nearly as bad as it will later. If you can't understand the nuances and subtle differences between approaching as Falco and approaching as Marth, it really isn't a big deal to play both of them. There's also the issue of picking a main. I feel like a lot of people just kinda fall into a character without really exploring their options with other characters. Some people learn to love their character and that's fine, but you're much more likely to feel some chemistry with your character's play style if you choose them after playing all of the characters for at least a little bit. You can never tell who you will like before you give them a real chance.

Playing less characters will help you develop better character specific strategies early on, but I would argue that learning general strategies related to out-spacing your opponent and learning manipulation and fakeouts as general strategies are much more valuable, and playing multiple characters helps to see all the different ways you can move around, react to certain strategies, etc. Then, once you've gotten a grasp on most of the core concepts you can move on to choosing a main and developing character specific strategies that can be built on top of the core skill set built up while playing several characters. I think this approach to the game will definitely yield results more slowly in the short term (you won't be beating anyone in tournament for a while), but once you get to the point where you are really comfortable with your main, then the core skills you've built up will start to speed up compared to other people who only stuck to those 1 or 2 characters in the beginning and only learned a "shell" or list of gimmicks that can be used to beat people.

With all that in mind, if you're pretty happy with Marth and Falco, that's great. For the tournament, just play friendlies with both of them. For your matches, you will get dominated pretty hard (especially with such a low seeding), so I would just suggest using Marth for Game 1 and Falco for Game 2 (or vice versa if you want).

Essentially, I feel like most elements of gameplay in Melee can be divided between general skill and character specific skill. How you approach, combo, recover, etc. are all character specific elements, but there is always overlap between character specific and general. General skill would simply be ideas, tactics, or methods that apply to multiple characters. It probably sounds pretty abstract, so I'll just use the example of approaching since that's what PP mentioned.

When you approach as Falco, obviously you have many Falco-specific things to consider when building a style of approach. You have lasers, a pretty short dash dance, a slow dash, and each aerial with a different hitbox that covers different areas. Obviously there are more elements that come into play, but these are the main ones. While these traits influence how a Falco player must approach, there are also many similarities to most or even all the other characters. All characters can dash dance, but some can dash dance better than others. A lot of characters have projectiles, but some are much more useful for approaching than others. You get the idea.

When you build up your entire knowledge of the game around a single character, it's very possible for you to unknowingly gimp elements of your gameplay because they are less important (although not useless) for your character. A simple example of this is a Sheik player. If a new player picks Sheik and doesn't really try out anyone else, they will definitely get good with Sheik, but it is reasonable to assume their dash dance game will be much worse than a Falcon player who relies on dash dance frequently. Without very limited knowledge of dash dancing, a Sheik player could quite easily become a decent player. Similarly, a Falcon who doesn't rely on WDing for spacing like the Sheik player could also do just fine. However, it seems to me that once you reach a certain skill level, these small tidbits of knowledge start to build up and you begin to realize you are missing a fairly large chunks of tactics to utilize. Sheik players may not usually dash dance, but I'll tell you what, I've definitely seen M2K's Sheik do some insane dash dancing to pull off things that otherwise could not have been done. I've also seen many top Falcon's display how dominant his WD and waveland can be, but only when being utilized with near perfection.

My theory, as you can probably see, is that in order to build a solid foundation for your overall gameplay, it is important to learn as many techniques as possible in order to expand your potential for your main. Even if a technique can only be used in a scenario that shows up in 1/500 games, Melee seems to have reached the point where those kinds of game knowledge can make or break you. Any time I see top players TRULY improvising in game, I can't help but think it is largely in part to their vast experience with a lot of the game from the perspective of many characters, not just one. Even things like Mango's Marth being extremely aggressive are examples of this. Mango's tendency to be aggressive is clearly a trait of himself as a player, not merely the beneficial strategy for his main. In all of his characters from his Mario and Link to Fox and Falco, you can see a very unique spark of aggression that makes his style his own, and also makes it work. I believe that is the sign of a player who truly understands the game and has not simply learned to analyze situations based on matchup-specific ideas. If you know what Falco could do to edgeguard Fox, that is great, but knowing what EVERY character could do in the same situation may help you realize Falco has a lot more options than you thought.

Essentially, what I would recommend to anyone starting out, even though I'm sure it's controversial, is to play all of the characters until you have at least a decent amount of comfort with all of them. You don't have to know the matchups inside and out for each character, but simply learning the different tools available in the game can help prepare your main to deal with situations with as many tools of his own as possible. Obviously this way of starting out has some definite cons to it. Someone trying to learn the gist of all the characters is going to progress a lot more slowly, and it may definitely be a lot more frustrating and difficult. However, I feel this pays out in the end as I've seen many mid-level players (mid-level being the players who tend to be seeded around the middle of their region; i.e. Me) who aren't bad, but seem to have many character-specific crutches they rely on. A Falcon who spams dash dance can get a lot of grabs on many low-mid level players, but once you get to that mid level you seem to hit a brick wall and all of the crutches and traps you've set up with your character begin to stop working on the experienced players who've seen it all. Falcons can no longer rely solely on their dash dance to get grabs the same way Marth players can't rely on players missing L-cancels to get shield grabs. Had these players used multiple characters, they might not have learned to play the game by relying on these character-specific tactics, and they would be much more capable of using general skill to out-space, out-punish, out-recover, etc. against good opponents.

I'm not just throwing out pure theory here, either. I would definitely consider myself a player who can play well with many characters, and I make a conscious effort every time I play to try multiple characters and see what I can come up with in terms of tactics to deal with different situations. I typically only get to play DJ, a pure Marth main (as in, only Marth), and I actually played him last night. He uses spacies a couple games, but not nearly as talented or as serious as his Marth. In the time we played, I played at least several games with all of these characters: Falco, Fox, Marth, Ness, Mario, Doc, Falcon, Ice Climbers, Jigglypuff, and Sheik. I have a feeling many people view me as someone who isn't too serious on improving because I actively practice so many characters, but I have definitely noticed major improvement in my Falco game due to all of my other characters. Simple gameplay elements off the top of my head that I have taken from other characters and implemented into my Falco:

Marth - reacting to get-up-attacks/rolls rather than predicting; WDing out of shield with fsmashes; tomahawk grabs; fox-trotting to avoid approaches; powershielding approaches/lasers

Fox - edgeguarding with a combination of ledgehog, shine, and bair; abusing is epic ledgedash (shoutouts to Wenbo!); approaching with dash cancelled shines; uthrow punishes; using platforms for approaches more

Ness - shield pressure by hitting their shield then moving slightly out of their range to bait something (from Ness being able to abuse DJC bair, dash away, repeat); different areas to aim the Firebird at, like sweet spotting vs. slightly above the ledge (Patches O'Houlihan: "If you can recover as Ness, you can recover as anybody." lol)

Mario/Doc - REALLY helped improved my jab game; wavelanding onto plats for regrabs/dsmash punishes instead of just shine-wavelanding all the time (shoutouts to Boss!)

Falcon - if you have a bad spot dodge habit, pick this character!; has also helped me utilize double jump punishes b/c I spam double jump stomp a lot lol; being more patient in general when dash dancing; having the self control to not jump off the stage (still working on this one...)

Jigglypuff - Spacing with this character is so hard... (shoutouts to Mahone for playing 99% Jiggs against my Falco my entire first semester of competitive Melee... uthrow rest wut iz dis BS?!) I feel like a scrub because I can do insane tech **** with Fox/Falco, but I frequently miss L-cancels that have those awkward timing being you started the aerial at the top of a full hop, but can't L-cancel until a lot later. lol I started using her WD much better yesterday, so that was an improvement. I still want to try out Hbox's patented full hop nair fade away **** that I've been seeing him do like mad somewhat recently.

Ice Climbers - I picked up Ice Climbers after rooming with Chu for Zenith (shoutouts to Alex Strife!) and getting my mind read 24/7 in about 300 friendlies. lol I'm learning the general types of attacks that tend to lead successfully into grabs, and with Sopo specifically, I have improved a lot more on reading opponents after throws. Chu just boggled my mind with how well he can hard-read opponents with Sopo throws. He will back throw you, and then it just seems like he covers 10 options without even moving or with a single attack. I think this will help my throw game mostly vs. Fox for stuff like dthrow/bthrow mixups where he doesn't fall over and it tends to come down to being able to read whether or not they are going to spot dodge, roll, or shield.

Sheik - This is my most recent addition to my cast of characters. I am hoping to greatly increase my ability to utilize WDing as a spacing tool. I identified it as a pretty weak spot in my spacing game a while ago (I tend to rely heavily on retreating lasers, a character specific tool, mind you) and I am confident that playing her will improve my ability to recognize situations where a WD approach/retreat is more beneficial than a dash or jump.

Peach - I can't float cancel. This character is too hard. D: (Shoutouts to Armada for rubbing it in my face!)


tldr; Wow, I typed all that and you won't even read it? Jerk...

Minor disclaimer: I am in no way trying to imply that playing multiple characters is the only way to get good. It's entirely possible someone could play one character all the time and still be able to see the options other characters have and apply them, but I just think it's much easier to comprehend and develop the other options when you have experience with those characters beyond spectating.
 

Divinokage

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So it basically comes down to knowing your tools which can obviously be done with only one character. That's what I did and it seemed to have come well. I learned my options by just playing a lot and see what can be done differently, I got punished for mistakes I should not have done so eventually I had to mix-up or stop doing dumb things that got me killed. Well at least right now to me, it's not so complicated anymore but I learned how to do fake-outs or go for guaranteed punishes instead. So ya knowing your tools... like what moves beats what moves, how to use your spacing to beat moves, knowing your hitboxes.. knowing how to CC properly at the right times, knowing how to DD to look for opportunities, knowing how to change your timing of attacks for fake-outs or go through shield for example lol. Ya there's a lot of things. =P
 

ShroudedOne

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Yeah, good post, Bones. You certainly make a good point, that seeing things from the view of other characters can indeed help with how you yourself see your own main.

I'd archive Peepee's posts, but that's time-consuming...
 

Dr Peepee

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I'll update the OP with my posts(the ones I can find/remember how to get to) today or tomorrow hopefully. Something needs to be there anyway lol.

I looove that you guys are posting these long walls and I'll respond to all of them, but I am kinda tired right now haha. I'll get to them though don't worry. =)
 

Dr Peepee

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PP, I've been attempting to bring Melee to my high school for the last couple of weeks since summer ended, and the 3-4 people that consistently show up and want to play seem to be really enjoying the game they forgot about as kids, and never really went back to and considered until I started doing this stuff.

They're really competitive guys (one of them's on JV basketball, one's a debate friend, another actually was invited out of state for some chess thing) and when I told them how deep Melee was compared to all the other fighters around and how much freedom its mechanics give the players that seemed to be the thing that really grabbed their interest.

My best character, and the one I have the most fun playing with (because I can reliably combo) is Falco, but the only "high-level" play (I am obviously not high-level at all, just relative to them) they are exposed to is my own play. I don't know if some of them have already looked up pro matches of the game on their own, but I don't want to really play up videos yet because the skill gap between them and what is being done now is . . . kind of cruelly demoralizing. You know how it is.

Basically, they say stuff like "why do you keep using those moves, you drill like every 2 seconds", etc. etc. with b-air and f-smash. I don't want my limitations as a player to infect their idea of Melee as a deep game (as opposed to one where you only use your character's "best moves" as much as you can), but I just can't combo so flexibly.

If you took the time to read my story, I appreciate it, so the real, direct questions:

I currently build damage with mobile lasers and mindgamed grabs, sometimes dash attack,

when they're at pillar % I try to launch them with u-throw, short-hop d-air approach, dash attack.

I pillar with d-air, if they DI in front of me by the time I've fastfalled back down, I use dtilt, if they DI'd behind me, I use u-tilt, if their trajectory was too far either direction, I attempt to dash attack them.

I don't know when it's preferable to shine. I really want to incorporate that. How can I tell when to shine to continue pillar?

I don't know any real "staple" combos other than pillar. As long as I'm pillar comboing I look like I'm spamming d-air. I can look at tons of awesome off-the-wall combos done situationally in videos, but it's harder to realize which combos are more applicable across the board, strings I should be actively looking to start.

I don't know what I should be looking for after a f-throw (which looks a lot cooler than uthrow). I usually jab them at LOW percents for regrab, and always f-tilt at mid percent to ... get more damage, it's already spaced conveniently, idk, f-tilt's not really doing anything. I have no idea what kind of reliable way to string off f-throw, and it looks really lame when I DD into a surprise grab and do a quick cool-looking f-throw into . . . nothing.

Oh, and of course your name doesn't have to be Dr PeePee to help me, I'll read any input. Thank you very much.
First of all, it's great you're trying to get more people into Melee! =)

If you're always using "drill" to them, then mix in more nair, dash attack, laser, even Fair approaches for starters. There's a ton to approach with you just have to get creative. Tell yourself you won't use Dair to start a combo or at all during a match and see if it helps your approach game out(I say at all because it can make your combo game more innovative but not necessarily better without Dair obviously lol...when you add Dair back in it should be better though).

Fthrow and Bthrow tricks are cool but obviously not as "guaranteed" or whatever that Uthrow combos can be. They're still beastly mixups though that I should work on more as well come to think of it haha.

Wouldn't that Dtilt send them too far away if they're still DI'ing away? Try to Dair them again or Fair them to carry them or something that can be easier to follow up haha. Dair stuns for a while so you probably have more options than you think. Same goes for the uptilt especially since you have access to things like Uair then and that can lead to platform stuff but you could also reverse Fair or just do other shenanigans. Bottom line is you just have to try a lot of moves and see what works and don't just do what you've seen. Try every single move Falco has in all situations so you can be sure you're not missing anything, if it's easier explained that way haha.

If dair shine looks like dair spam then dair shine nair shine(Mango does this to carry the opponent across the stage in stun if it's a FF'er). Or mix in Dair uptilt while they're on the ground into shine again or something I dunno(that actually sounds kinda cool now that I think about it LOL to the lab!).

Off of Fthrow you should either regrab into something or probably chase/laser to chase with something since people probably won't be attacking you out of Fthrow(and at higher percents they won't get to you in time or they'll have to tech/DJ anyway). No TRUE combos, but that doesn't make it bad. It makes it scary for the opponent actually since they have to make a choice if you think about it(will do a post concerning this eventually I hope haha).

Mango does it sometimes. Not a lot, by any means, but I'm surprised you didn't pick up on that from him, haha.
Actually, I asked about using uair as an approach/in shield pressure a few weeks ago specifically because I noticed mango do it in a few different vids.
I honestly don't recall him doing that at all haha. Maybe I'm missing it a lot.....

As an approach and vs shields are two different beasts though. For shield, pressure, Uair can be great because it could shield stab the top of shields and potentially start a juggle/combo(who's expecting an upair instead of a Nair to stop that anyway?). As n approach it still feels mehhh to me but maybe the spacies' body contortions help them when they land or the moves stick out more to the side than I realize.....

I feel like it'd be okay with Fox because he's so fast and you might not be able to react to his approach anyway, but maybe there is more to it.

Playing around with falco on battlefield, think ill share a few things i noticed.

bair autocancels from the top platform (must not fast fall)
you can full hop bair thru a medium platform then fall back to ground level (slight delayed fast fall)
^ same thing, but with uair

probably other things, im gonna go watch state of the game
Posts like these really shouldn't go unnoticed lol. Such good information for things to play around with.

Hopefully we have more people testing out character tricks on various stages that aren't posting. That can be huge because it won't be a run-of-the-mill way to play your character and really force your opponent to wake up and read what you're doing.

Apparently, there are some who think that Peach is one of the most technical characters. Of course, things like that are opinion based, but it still makes me chuckle. Though, you're right, she does require some tech skill. FC nairs are not that easy (to learn, anyways), and neither is her wave dash.

Her dash dance is awful, but it's helped me out in the past before. But it depends on where they've been knocked down, and whether they can roll, or should get up attack, or something.

"Always good to hear more about Peach." You're like, the only Falco main who would ever say that. So weird.
I can't figure out how to FC quickly with Peach. XD I'm also not trying too hard to learn it because my grounded Peach goes in lmao, but it's a different kind of tech skill that feels really cool at the least, even if it's not super hard or something.

Peach's DD isn't good on its own, but it seems to work well for her when mixed in with her regular walling/movement game. Probably just good enough for the baiting type of character she is.
I agree that it certainly can help at times with tech chasing, but I was suggesting that it, like everything in this game pretty much, shouldn't always be done in that situation.

And why wouldn't I want to learn more about a character I don't know as much about? I might not enjoy Peach as much as some but that doesn't mean I don't like hearing about her or learning about her. Learning things about this game or hearing about it is pretty cool. I doubt I would have put so much time and effort into this game unless I thought all of it as a whole was worth it. =)

Somebody should really make an archive of PP posts, for future reference.

Coming into Melee as an amateur Brawl player (Diddy and DK), there were a few habits I brought over. I do a lot of jab->smash and jab->grab with all my characters (besides Mewtwo, 'cause his jab is 30 frames long). I also do a lot of defensive Bairs, Utilts and up-angled Ftilts against aerial approaches (most notably Falcon), as well as spacing Ftilts on shields. I also like running off the stage and then DJ->Bairing back on, but it's incredibly punishable if predicted.

Against floaties at high %s, after knocking them up in the air but not killing, I like to jump up and up-B at them (or fake it and go back to the ground). People often try to beat out the up-B with a Dair, but a trade will usually kill them, and even if you miss you can land on the ground before they do. Not really drawn from another character, just a trick I like.

P.S. -- proud to have made that "stupid mango dash-dance video" =P
Ohhhh didn't think about coming from Brawl when I made that post, but I've seen some converts do some weird airdodge things you don't see anymore as well as have a really difficult time adjusting to Melee's shields/rolls/spotdodges(some of which are still pretty silly lol). And YEAH ton of Ftilts are becoming used to beat approaches since Brawl came out(one guy I know showed me Ganon's Ftilt beats pretty much any approach in the ditto and he was primarily a Brawl player). I don't think this was the case before but I could be mistaken.

LOL I do that up-B thing too once in a while. Maaaaad troll and funny because it's pretty good(they could just airdodge but that'd be no fun and they panic anyway lol). XD

Also, I thought that Mango video was good, but I just dislike it when he gets meatridden in any form because his ego is HUGE lmao. Nothing personal towards you meant by my comment man haha.











I'll get to bones' post later lol.

@SB: I'm trying to fix my sleep schedule still LOL.
 

Strong Badam

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unrelatedly, whenever i play falco i purposely almost never laser because lasering makes me feel like a douchebag and i win anyway
 

LumpyCPU...

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omfg...

i have to read like 3 pages of wall'o'text posts... and i'm actually looking forward to it.
 

crush

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Okay ya serious posts.

Last week chivalruse told me about this thing where he can dash away then dash back laser and then approach with dair but it was in the middle of our friendlies and I didn't really understand why it would be good he said you do it sometimes too can you explain it to me?

:phone:
 

Dr Peepee

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Well that's sort of related to dash dancing and how it tricks people, but most don't consider lasering from a dash dance like that. Falco running away means he's retreating or trying to aerial or something like that so people usuallllly don't expect a laser unless they're just waiting for it. Coming out of a quick DD that someone isn't expecting already(due to conditioning or other circumstances) then transitioning to a laser approach before they can react to the fact that you dashed back is a pretty good tactic(nothing is perfect of course).
 

FoxLisk

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that sounds suuuuper risky. a lot of people like to chase falco when he runs away - mostly because if they try to run away and laser when its not safe you can **** them up - so be careful with it.
 
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genkaku

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wait... isn't falco vs. ganon just stand there until he messes up?
and isn't ganon vs. falco just stand there until he messes up?
Clearly we're doing this wrong if someone on the screen is moving.
 

Divinokage

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i fair falcos that are running away.

their DI sucks when it happens.

and then they die.

but falcos don't run away from ganon :(
Sure they do, but you gotta do it properly.. yesterday I played with Ganon and I had epic moments where I regained the power that I was able to take on the world but.. it's so damn tough to maintain, I think it lasted 3-4 games and then I was out of energy. Wtf is this kind of energy.. haha. =P It's like SS3. In those games, I've had battles where things were going nuts, like always something happening, some new happenings too. Pretty nuts lol. I could try going into details if you want because it really felt like I knew exactly what to do at the right times. =P
 

ShroudedOne

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I actually know what Kage means when he says that. There are simply times when I start doing REALLY good things, and punishing stuff really well, and I'm in a zone when I have just one thought. "Stop them from winning." Then my fingers do the work. Unfortunately, I can't really get myself out of my own thoughts enough to consistently get into this "mode."
 

JPOBS

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I'm pretty sure everyone has that. There are times when I go on arbitrary streaks of 4-6 games where I'm playing perfect melee, getting reads on everything, I'm just living inside the game.

Then I lose focus or naturally start to decline and go back to my normal play which is less good. Idk how to maintain that heightened play over numerous hours.
 

choknater

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i'd say it's a combination of tech skill being on point, high adrenaline for good reaction times, confidence in winning, matchup knowledge, and luck

and yeah, those are all hard to maintain. especially, you know, the luck part.
 

Divinokage

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Though I guess the degree of that might be greater as you are a higher level player. I'm gonna have to figure out how to stay in that zone, it's possible.. of course it is!! lol. I mean the really fun part about it yesterday is that when it happened to me, it happened to Bam too at the exact same time. The result is actually SUPER epic battle, it's ridiculous.. I thought it would be a bit more one-sided depending on the matchup but it's not. The matchup becomes almost irrelevant as you are both trying to punish each other in the most creative ways ever. Like power shields were going nuts, counter-attacks.. defensive DI, anti-punishment game, umm.. like we were just trying to get in on each other and it was surprisingly easy to get out of stuff and then try to attack again. Idk.. it was sick. lol.
 

crush

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I'm pretty sure everyone has that. There are times when I go on arbitrary streaks of 4-6 games where I'm playing perfect melee, getting reads on everything, I'm just living inside the game.

Then I lose focus or naturally start to decline and go back to my normal play which is less good. Idk how to maintain that heightened play over numerous hours.
yeah that happens to me a lot too but usually only when I'm trying uber duper hard not to get hit like when I have 3 stock 0% and I really wanna get a JV. one time when I had 3 stock 0% against my friend I powershielded 3 marth fairs in a row + that was before i even learned to powershield falcos lasers :awesome:
 

Dr Peepee

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OMG I'm so glad you brought up this topic! I was actually just posting in a thread in Melee discussion (HERE) which was a new player trying to decide between playing Marth and Falco. The thread has most of what you hear these days: suggestions telling people to pick one character and stick with it. While I obviously understand the benefits of dedicating yourself to one character, I've always felt it is a highly overrated way of learning to play, ESPECIALLY for new players. My post:




Essentially, I feel like most elements of gameplay in Melee can be divided between general skill and character specific skill. How you approach, combo, recover, etc. are all character specific elements, but there is always overlap between character specific and general. General skill would simply be ideas, tactics, or methods that apply to multiple characters. It probably sounds pretty abstract, so I'll just use the example of approaching since that's what PP mentioned.

When you approach as Falco, obviously you have many Falco-specific things to consider when building a style of approach. You have lasers, a pretty short dash dance, a slow dash, and each aerial with a different hitbox that covers different areas. Obviously there are more elements that come into play, but these are the main ones. While these traits influence how a Falco player must approach, there are also many similarities to most or even all the other characters. All characters can dash dance, but some can dash dance better than others. A lot of characters have projectiles, but some are much more useful for approaching than others. You get the idea.

When you build up your entire knowledge of the game around a single character, it's very possible for you to unknowingly gimp elements of your gameplay because they are less important (although not useless) for your character. A simple example of this is a Sheik player. If a new player picks Sheik and doesn't really try out anyone else, they will definitely get good with Sheik, but it is reasonable to assume their dash dance game will be much worse than a Falcon player who relies on dash dance frequently. Without very limited knowledge of dash dancing, a Sheik player could quite easily become a decent player. Similarly, a Falcon who doesn't rely on WDing for spacing like the Sheik player could also do just fine. However, it seems to me that once you reach a certain skill level, these small tidbits of knowledge start to build up and you begin to realize you are missing a fairly large chunks of tactics to utilize. Sheik players may not usually dash dance, but I'll tell you what, I've definitely seen M2K's Sheik do some insane dash dancing to pull off things that otherwise could not have been done. I've also seen many top Falcon's display how dominant his WD and waveland can be, but only when being utilized with near perfection.

My theory, as you can probably see, is that in order to build a solid foundation for your overall gameplay, it is important to learn as many techniques as possible in order to expand your potential for your main. Even if a technique can only be used in a scenario that shows up in 1/500 games, Melee seems to have reached the point where those kinds of game knowledge can make or break you. Any time I see top players TRULY improvising in game, I can't help but think it is largely in part to their vast experience with a lot of the game from the perspective of many characters, not just one. Even things like Mango's Marth being extremely aggressive are examples of this. Mango's tendency to be aggressive is clearly a trait of himself as a player, not merely the beneficial strategy for his main. In all of his characters from his Mario and Link to Fox and Falco, you can see a very unique spark of aggression that makes his style his own, and also makes it work. I believe that is the sign of a player who truly understands the game and has not simply learned to analyze situations based on matchup-specific ideas. If you know what Falco could do to edgeguard Fox, that is great, but knowing what EVERY character could do in the same situation may help you realize Falco has a lot more options than you thought.

Essentially, what I would recommend to anyone starting out, even though I'm sure it's controversial, is to play all of the characters until you have at least a decent amount of comfort with all of them. You don't have to know the matchups inside and out for each character, but simply learning the different tools available in the game can help prepare your main to deal with situations with as many tools of his own as possible. Obviously this way of starting out has some definite cons to it. Someone trying to learn the gist of all the characters is going to progress a lot more slowly, and it may definitely be a lot more frustrating and difficult. However, I feel this pays out in the end as I've seen many mid-level players (mid-level being the players who tend to be seeded around the middle of their region; i.e. Me) who aren't bad, but seem to have many character-specific crutches they rely on. A Falcon who spams dash dance can get a lot of grabs on many low-mid level players, but once you get to that mid level you seem to hit a brick wall and all of the crutches and traps you've set up with your character begin to stop working on the experienced players who've seen it all. Falcons can no longer rely solely on their dash dance to get grabs the same way Marth players can't rely on players missing L-cancels to get shield grabs. Had these players used multiple characters, they might not have learned to play the game by relying on these character-specific tactics, and they would be much more capable of using general skill to out-space, out-punish, out-recover, etc. against good opponents.

I'm not just throwing out pure theory here, either. I would definitely consider myself a player who can play well with many characters, and I make a conscious effort every time I play to try multiple characters and see what I can come up with in terms of tactics to deal with different situations. I typically only get to play DJ, a pure Marth main (as in, only Marth), and I actually played him last night. He uses spacies a couple games, but not nearly as talented or as serious as his Marth. In the time we played, I played at least several games with all of these characters: Falco, Fox, Marth, Ness, Mario, Doc, Falcon, Ice Climbers, Jigglypuff, and Sheik. I have a feeling many people view me as someone who isn't too serious on improving because I actively practice so many characters, but I have definitely noticed major improvement in my Falco game due to all of my other characters. Simple gameplay elements off the top of my head that I have taken from other characters and implemented into my Falco:

Marth - reacting to get-up-attacks/rolls rather than predicting; WDing out of shield with fsmashes; tomahawk grabs; fox-trotting to avoid approaches; powershielding approaches/lasers

Fox - edgeguarding with a combination of ledgehog, shine, and bair; abusing is epic ledgedash (shoutouts to Wenbo!); approaching with dash cancelled shines; uthrow punishes; using platforms for approaches more

Ness - shield pressure by hitting their shield then moving slightly out of their range to bait something (from Ness being able to abuse DJC bair, dash away, repeat); different areas to aim the Firebird at, like sweet spotting vs. slightly above the ledge (Patches O'Houlihan: "If you can recover as Ness, you can recover as anybody." lol)

Mario/Doc - REALLY helped improved my jab game; wavelanding onto plats for regrabs/dsmash punishes instead of just shine-wavelanding all the time (shoutouts to Boss!)

Falcon - if you have a bad spot dodge habit, pick this character!; has also helped me utilize double jump punishes b/c I spam double jump stomp a lot lol; being more patient in general when dash dancing; having the self control to not jump off the stage (still working on this one...)

Jigglypuff - Spacing with this character is so hard... (shoutouts to Mahone for playing 99% Jiggs against my Falco my entire first semester of competitive Melee... uthrow rest wut iz dis BS?!) I feel like a scrub because I can do insane tech **** with Fox/Falco, but I frequently miss L-cancels that have those awkward timing being you started the aerial at the top of a full hop, but can't L-cancel until a lot later. lol I started using her WD much better yesterday, so that was an improvement. I still want to try out Hbox's patented full hop nair fade away **** that I've been seeing him do like mad somewhat recently.

Ice Climbers - I picked up Ice Climbers after rooming with Chu for Zenith (shoutouts to Alex Strife!) and getting my mind read 24/7 in about 300 friendlies. lol I'm learning the general types of attacks that tend to lead successfully into grabs, and with Sopo specifically, I have improved a lot more on reading opponents after throws. Chu just boggled my mind with how well he can hard-read opponents with Sopo throws. He will back throw you, and then it just seems like he covers 10 options without even moving or with a single attack. I think this will help my throw game mostly vs. Fox for stuff like dthrow/bthrow mixups where he doesn't fall over and it tends to come down to being able to read whether or not they are going to spot dodge, roll, or shield.

Sheik - This is my most recent addition to my cast of characters. I am hoping to greatly increase my ability to utilize WDing as a spacing tool. I identified it as a pretty weak spot in my spacing game a while ago (I tend to rely heavily on retreating lasers, a character specific tool, mind you) and I am confident that playing her will improve my ability to recognize situations where a WD approach/retreat is more beneficial than a dash or jump.

Peach - I can't float cancel. This character is too hard. D: (Shoutouts to Armada for rubbing it in my face!)


tldr; Wow, I typed all that and you won't even read it? Jerk...

Minor disclaimer: I am in no way trying to imply that playing multiple characters is the only way to get good. It's entirely possible someone could play one character all the time and still be able to see the options other characters have and apply them, but I just think it's much easier to comprehend and develop the other options when you have experience with those characters beyond spectating.
Man I should write later the other side of the coin after reading this.....super tempting haha.

But yes, at the least, learning other characters is great to explore ideas and build your own game if you hit a wall or a plateau. If you start out with many characters early on, it is possible you could get lost with who you want to main or counterpick or you just get frustrated with your improvement lol. I suppose if you are determined enough though, then any route you take will probably work out well, so it would just be a matter of getting the most out of your efforts. In your case, the more characters you play the better off you would be. For someone more interested in improving and getting results quickly, they may only take a secondary or two and see how far that takes them.

Personally, I only really played Marth and then Fox later and then Falcon even later as I focused hard on Falco most of the time. With soooo much to learn about a character and fighting games and smash mechanics in general(the crux of the other argument) I had my hands full improving with Falco, and didn't really hit too many walls that weren't solvable with study or a short break.

Still, that's an awesome advice post you wrote man. I hope they took it to heart, as well as any other readers who got to check it out haha. =)

So it basically comes down to knowing your tools which can obviously be done with only one character. That's what I did and it seemed to have come well. I learned my options by just playing a lot and see what can be done differently, I got punished for mistakes I should not have done so eventually I had to mix-up or stop doing dumb things that got me killed. Well at least right now to me, it's not so complicated anymore but I learned how to do fake-outs or go for guaranteed punishes instead. So ya knowing your tools... like what moves beats what moves, how to use your spacing to beat moves, knowing your hitboxes.. knowing how to CC properly at the right times, knowing how to DD to look for opportunities, knowing how to change your timing of attacks for fake-outs or go through shield for example lol. Ya there's a lot of things. =P
Yes, but no one is saying you can't do it with one character. The only thing I'm pointing out is that it can help improve/change your play or make it more well-rounded if you pick up ideas or characteristics other characters make better use of. For example, I've noticed that your tech chase game can use some work(everyone always needs work on tech chasing). I would suggest that you either focus on your tech chase game exclusively or you play Falcon more so you learn different ways to manipulate techs to the way you want them. By being put in situations where you must tech chase often but by also having the tools to get the tech chase more often(in Falcon's case, the speed) you are forced to learn faster but to also learn different ways(hopefully) to influence tech decisions and punishments. This can carry back over to Ganondorf(though it would require adjustment of course).

Nothing wrong with doing just Ganon obviously haha.

i fair falcos that are running away.

their DI sucks when it happens.

and then they die.

but falcos don't run away from ganon :(
You can make them run away from Ganon, but you have to cut off their approach or laser game first usually. Then other times you have to mess with their spacing to force them to retreat. Point is, you can make them run if you want but you have to CREATE the situation. I know for sure that Ganon can create that situation for Falco too. I also don't mean just one time or two a set.

Gonna stop the explanation there to see your response. We can also go over this in text/aim/fb or in person haha.

Though I guess the degree of that might be greater as you are a higher level player. I'm gonna have to figure out how to stay in that zone, it's possible.. of course it is!! lol. I mean the really fun part about it yesterday is that when it happened to me, it happened to Bam too at the exact same time. The result is actually SUPER epic battle, it's ridiculous.. I thought it would be a bit more one-sided depending on the matchup but it's not. The matchup becomes almost irrelevant as you are both trying to punish each other in the most creative ways ever. Like power shields were going nuts, counter-attacks.. defensive DI, anti-punishment game, umm.. like we were just trying to get in on each other and it was surprisingly easy to get out of stuff and then try to attack again. Idk.. it was sick. lol.
Hmmm maybe I should write about what it takes to be a top level player to clear things up about that?

Anyway, I'd say part of this boils down to consistency and base level play. As one gets better and better, it would be hoped that their strategies and combos, etc become more airtight, thus making them more consistent overall. That's merely increasing their base level of play though, which would be the starting point or neutral point that one has built themselves up to before they go into a set. People are, well, human though, so this means they will naturally fluctuate in skill throughout the set/match. Ideally one wants to fluctuate above their base level a lot, but even going for consistent play and maybe attempting to force your opponent into fluctuating low can be profitable as well, and is more realistic for some than others. Fluctuating above ones level allows them to play better, but it can also tire them should the adrenaline or whatever other factors influencing the play wear off/down. This happens at all levels of play, but as level of play increases, it is important to recognize when your play and/or your opponent's is fluctuating as well and determine how to play in order to boost/reverse such shifts. This relates to momentum but I'd say this could be what influences momentum and then a feedback cycle continues as they in turn affect one another from there.

Well I'm tangenting super hard so I'd better stop there LOL. Hopefully someone will like reading that thing I wrote as I played with it in my head. I've been on a skill fluctuations thought kick lately so I was itching to write about it. XD
 

Bones0

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Man I should write later the other side of the coin after reading this.....super tempting haha.

But yes, at the least, learning other characters is great to explore ideas and build your own game if you hit a wall or a plateau. If you start out with many characters early on, it is possible you could get lost with who you want to main or counterpick or you just get frustrated with your improvement lol. I suppose if you are determined enough though, then any route you take will probably work out well, so it would just be a matter of getting the most out of your efforts. In your case, the more characters you play the better off you would be. For someone more interested in improving and getting results quickly, they may only take a secondary or two and see how far that takes them.

Personally, I only really played Marth and then Fox later and then Falcon even later as I focused hard on Falco most of the time. With soooo much to learn about a character and fighting games and smash mechanics in general(the crux of the other argument) I had my hands full improving with Falco, and didn't really hit too many walls that weren't solvable with study or a short break.

Still, that's an awesome advice post you wrote man. I hope they took it to heart, as well as any other readers who got to check it out haha. =)
I thought more about this, and I have a feeling my lack of human opponents has probably played into my usage of many characters. I mostly practice against comps, and when I do get to play against my sparring partner, he only plays Marth. As a result, it feels like ~30% of my improvement has been from being on my own, whether I am just theory crafting situations while practicing tech skill or studying videos. Everyone knows playing comps can get stale pretty fast, so I think in some ways using multiple characters helps me keep my mindset about strategies more fresh. I could imagine if I played several different people all the time, I would be exposed to much more variable game play and would have more influence to pull from just for Falco. I guess I have just sort of used strategies from other characters to influence/spark different styles because I don't have access that same amount of creativity most players do. It can be very hard to try to innovate with a character (or anything for that matter) that you are very familiar with, so playing other characters can definitely facilitate that innovation so you don't end up becoming a carbon-copy of the current top players. And overall, I'd say it's worked for me at least because I would say my style is pretty unique, but not without sacrificing efficiency.
 

Dr Peepee

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Makes sense to me, but I think there are ways you can learn quite a good bit about your main even by yourself.

Seeing what your character can do with edgecancels and jumps(stuff like what Sveet posted for example) can always be beneficial, for example.

I definitely think it's a good idea going about it the way you are though since you have less people to play. Just trying to help if you want to push the bird a little farther on his own one day haha.
 

Bones0

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Yeah, I mean don't get me wrong, I love playing many characters, but I easily spend around 75% of my time playing Falco, so it's not like any of my other characters are nearly as good.

lol It's funny you mention edge cancels because ever since I saw that Mango vs. Lovage GFs a while back where Lovage edge cancels like mad, I've just been spamming the crap out of edge cancels. It's definitely paying off though. I now constantly use edge cancels to cover two options (often if I find myself on side platforms I will ledge cancel a dair towards the middle and then bair immediately after; it seems to cover the opponent jumping up to hit you as well as chasing you to the center of the stage before you land). It's also really useful for edgeguarding because you can completely avoid people recovering off of techs (like CF teching into an Up-B won't hit you if you jump right away).
 

ShroudedOne

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I just recently found out about ledge cancel bair to edge guard with Fox. I can't believe it never occurred to me before, but it seems like it has a fair amount of utility.
 
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