PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[stabbedbyanipple]

So I've been watching hella peach vs falco videos to try and learn the matchup better. What I watched was macd vs pp, armada vs pp and zhu vs pp. I watched them pretty thoroughly and jotted down a bunch of stuff, and would like to know if the stuff I wrote is actually correct

- edgeguarding; lasers, spaced tilts, bair if she's high up, spaced smashes if you predict her landing on stage, she can't do much from the ledge other than roll/attack
- be aware of where you can shield poke her with dair
- spaced aerials on shield or DDing at a certain range will lead to roll, as she doesn't have too many options
- laser only for specific setups, edgeguarding, or where you're super sure you're out of float aerial range
- not entirely sure, but her spot dodge will get beat out by dair if done correctly
- dash dance to mix up your approach timing and stop her from WDing back or predicting your approach, not exclusive to peach but very effective vs her. Be mindful of dash attack range though
- if you're on her and applying pressure correctly, pulling turnips should be very hard if she does pull one then ????
- hitting/shooting her to make her drop the turnip, or just avoiding her is all I could figure to deal with them D=
- if you don't pillar her correctly, you can get dsmashed/naired out of it looool, fair is actually pretty good out of an uthrow and does decent damage
- grabs carry mild risk, but if you don't mix them in, she might get too comfortable with your approach
- DD and wait it out if she is float camping you, laser if you're out of aerial range, or very quickly, get under her and uair. You can probably use platforms too, but I'm entirely sure how a general way of using them goes
- unless she does something dumb like dash attacking your shield, throwing out a defensive aerial like that is super risky, peach punishes really hard, but if you do your moves at the right times, she has a tough time getting her offense in gear
- if peach is on a platform above you, uair will beat out her dsmash, if she does anything other than dmash then double jump dair or bair could work too, but may be risky depending on what she does
- dair kills save you a lot of hassle as far as killing a peach with good DI with bair or getting a good read and landing fsmash, make sure to get them whenever you can
- shield di her downsmash and then wavedash in and shine her, not sure if it's guaranteed lol

That's about all I got

A lot of this may be obvious

 

[Druggedfox]

those guys don't stand a chance against kevin's bro.

he's really good.

Kevin's bro sucks dude, I heard he can't even wavedash yet

Edit: Be aware that if peach pulls out a turnip, but she hasn't gotten to a height where she can avoid lasers yet... she's ****ing useless. Not being able to nair, downsmash, dash attack, or shield grab makes peach go ???. If shes getting turnip pulls on you, its not the end of the world, just be ready to take advantage of it.

Step 1) Try to not let her get turnips
Step 2) If she gets them, be aware she loses everything else good she has
Step 3) If she gets to a good aerial position AND have a turinp... uh... >_> Idk grab it and throw it away or something

 

[crush]

Kevin's bro sucks dude, I heard he can't even wavedash yet

He can't tech or l cancel either.

 

[Deleted member]

Presea is an awesome tank.

I'll agree if only because Presea can be invincible.

Kevin pretty please change your name to Dr. Pepper. The SS will give you a free name change no problem and it'd be both tastefully hilarious but funnier because at least half of the people that see it won't realize it.

 

[Wenbobular]

Someone else in NC is already Dr Pepper I do not approve

 

[Bones0]

Mango and PP should enter teams as double Mario and use the names Scorpion Master and Subzero Master.

 

[genkaku]

yeah, and after that Mango and Hbox should enter teams as double puff with the tags BEST and BROS.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

I think dr pepper is GA. But he's cool.

 

[ShroudedOne]

So I've been watching hella peach vs falco videos to try and learn the matchup better. What I watched was macd vs pp, armada vs pp and zhu vs pp. I watched them pretty thoroughly and jotted down a bunch of stuff, and would like to know if the stuff I wrote is actually correct

- edgeguarding; lasers, spaced tilts, bair if she's high up, spaced smashes if you predict her landing on stage, she can't do much from the ledge other than roll/attack
- be aware of where you can shield poke her with dair
- spaced aerials on shield or DDing at a certain range will lead to roll, as she doesn't have too many options
- laser only for specific setups, edgeguarding, or where you're super sure you're out of float aerial range
- not entirely sure, but her spot dodge will get beat out by dair if done correctly
- dash dance to mix up your approach timing and stop her from WDing back or predicting your approach, not exclusive to peach but very effective vs her. Be mindful of dash attack range though
- if you're on her and applying pressure correctly, pulling turnips should be very hard if she does pull one then ????
- hitting/shooting her to make her drop the turnip, or just avoiding her is all I could figure to deal with them D=
- if you don't pillar her correctly, you can get dsmashed/naired out of it looool, fair is actually pretty good out of an uthrow and does decent damage
- grabs carry mild risk, but if you don't mix them in, she might get too comfortable with your approach
- DD and wait it out if she is float camping you, laser if you're out of aerial range, or very quickly, get under her and uair. You can probably use platforms too, but I'm entirely sure how a general way of using them goes
- unless she does something dumb like dash attacking your shield, throwing out a defensive aerial like that is super risky, peach punishes really hard, but if you do your moves at the right times, she has a tough time getting her offense in gear
- if peach is on a platform above you, uair will beat out her dsmash, if she does anything other than dmash then double jump dair or bair could work too, but may be risky depending on what she does
- dair kills save you a lot of hassle as far as killing a peach with good DI with bair or getting a good read and landing fsmash, make sure to get them whenever you can
- shield di her downsmash and then wavedash in and shine her, not sure if it's guaranteed lol

That's about all I got

A lot of this may be obvious

As a Peach main, there isn't really much I can add. It's very important to use your lasers safely, cause if you don't, you'll probably get float cancel faired or something dumb. Also, what you said about spacing on her shield is very important. Respect the shield, cause her OoS options are pretty good, and you don't want to get shield grabbed/naired. Especially bait shield grabs, because we like doing that.

The move that I love using against Falco to start something up is her fair, cause it's one of the few moves that knockes down at zero (I think, it does knock down at very, very low percents). I prefer to powershield lasers, and what messes me up is when my friend does those fake out lasers, when the sound comes out, but the laser doesn't. I find Falco's fair dumb, but it's something that can be abused a little bit more in this matchup, since the best we can hope for is a trade.

I used to think Peach had the advantage, but I think it's even now (with Falco having the edge), because with a steady, safe stream of pressure from Falco, we struggle.

 

[choknater]

can peach escape shine grab?

 

[Winston]

Anyone can escape shinegrab by buffering a roll

 

[choknater]

hm, okay interesting. rolling is free vs falco :D ty

 

[LumpyCPU...]

keep rollin' rollin' rollin' WHAT

 

[Rubyiris]

That's a really limited view of the game. Melee is so much more vast than that.

No it's not.

 

[Cherished Doll]

pp *****!

 

[Veetaak]

pp *****!

This. But PP has been avoiding this thread it seems. I'm hoping that he is working on his book about Mango or something ^^

 

[Dark Hart]

keep rollin' rollin' rollin' WHAT

Kenny where's my raccoon suit?

 

[fuhnkyfresh]

what is buffering?

 

[Strong Badam]

in shield, hold your c-stick in a direction. if you hold it down, you'll spotdodge, left/right roll, up jump. if you do this during shieldstun, you'll perform the action on the earliest possible frame.

 

[ShroudedOne]

No it's not.

Well, I guess we just see Melee in different ways, then. I tend to think that it has a lot of potential for a vast variety of styles...

in shield, hold your c-stick in a direction. if you hold it down, you'll spotdodge, left/right roll, up jump. if you do this during shieldstun, you'll perform the action on the earliest possible frame.

Ah, thanks. I always thought that buffering roll = mashing roll.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

Kenny where's my raccoon suit?

raccoon suit fer sher!!!! haha

raccoon suit fer sher!!!! haha

raccoon suit fer sher!!!! haha

raccoon suit fer sher!!!! haha

raccoon suit fer sher!!!! haha

edit: it took me a good minute to find those posts. lol i guess i need a more demanding hobby.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So

Alright, so as most of you are aware, I have been avoiding this thread for a good while now. Why is that? Well, I was taking a lot of time to do different things and now I'm going to come back here with a lot to say, at least initially but hopefully for a good while.


I'm going to begin this post by going quickly into why I had to dip in the first place. Some would consider this unnecessary or would just be glad I'm back, but others are curious and I do feel I owe a smallish explanation at least since I mean my name's in the title and I just quit doing the work haha.


Well, over the course of the past year and a half(roughly), I've been having serious life troubles, which ultimately ended in at least one serious depression fit, the worst of those coming at the very end of the entire ordeal a few weeks ago, which is when I quit posting in this thread. I was busy traveling the state seeking the advice and good times of a lot of my smasher friends(we didn't play a lot of smash just hung out) in NC, which is part of why I wasn't interested in posting here. Then I just decided to take more time to heal and not give myself much responsibility and only post when I felt like it for a while(I feel very obligated to respond to everything here but not anywhere else). I feel like my thought processes and overall usefulness in discussion was severely reduced because of this whole thing, but I'd really like to stress that I am making efforts to go back to my older, higher standards(I'll elaborate on these). It's a work in progress, but I'm doing my best! =)


**Btw, this is not a plea for sympathy so I'm not asking anyone to talk or to wish me well haha. It really is just an explanation for why I've been gone, plus I was told once that I should just use this thread as my blog-type thing, so I hope that we're all clear on that.**


Umbreon told me not too long ago that my style had become roughly finished by Pound 4 and the rest of my time playing this game was refining it. I don't think this is enough for me, and I want to pick up where I left off in terms of personal metagame expansion because I feel like I have new ideas about improving my style. What Mango is doing with platform work now was what I was about to begin working on before I no longer cared about innovation. Will whatever I do look like Mango or be better than Mango's? I don't care but I will be darn sure it's effective.

I never thought a lot about Falco's matchups in terms of who won or whatever(except maybe that he lost to Marth lol but even then maybe not too seriously to care) until I was asked by people who respected my opinion. I never had much of an answer for them at first, but once I began looking at what I was working around as Falco and how the theory back in the day before some things changed I believed that it made Falco look weak overall. Sadly this has led to a discrediting of my opinion on Falco's matchups, which is something I don't like if I want to be a useful influence in any sort of discussion.

****While I have not done much useful work in thinking in Falco's matchups lately, I'd like to give my current thoughts or inklings(these are even less concrete than my already wavering opinions) on Falco's matchups*****


-I believe Falco loses to Marth but it is not a counter matchup. I will always believe this.

-Falco probably loses to Sheik.

-Falco may go even with Fox.

-Falco Puff is becoming better for Falco the more I play it but I haven't thought the theory out in its entirety in so long.

-Falco Peach......I don't know?

-Falco beats Falcon but not as much as Fox does.

-I am terrible vs Samus(completely clueless and I've decided I'm a garbage player if I can't admit my weaknesses publicly because I'll never have incentive to get them fixed otherwise) so I have no idea what the matchup is.

-Falco ICs is close but I feel like someone wins. No idea who.

Falco beats the rest of the cast.


I still believe this is largely out of line with the current metagame and its opinions, and I strongly encourage anyone who disagrees with me to discuss it with me and I'll try to work it out with you from multiple angles so that hopefully any of us discussing or reading on will get something constructive out of the discussion. =)



I played all Marth at a tournament(G6) yesterday to get perspective on playing non-Falco in tourney(like I did that other time I played a lot of Fox/Marth vs M2K at G6:2 if anyone remembers when I tried to talk a lot about that experience). While I feel like I wasn't playing as seriously or as completely as I could have I think I got some useful information out of the experience and would really like to talk about it(as well as upload a few matches I recorded like my set vs Chaddd's Ganondorf in WFs where he took a game off my Marth on FoD so he's clearly a smart player).



I'm hopefully going to be posting thoughts like these and more over time. School is starting up but I'm also really into Melee more and more now so I'm hoping we all benefit from this haha. Oh and before I forget.....





THE MANGO POST WILL BE THE FIRST THING I DO!!!!




I can't say when it will be but I'm extremely hopeful it will be within 3 days from now. If not I don't think I'm doing much next weekend so definitely then. =) I'll admit I haven't begun the post outside of a lot of outlining/general concepts in my head, but I don't think it would take more than an hour or two tops to do assuming I sit down and just stay focused on it. I can't guarantee it will live up to whatever hype it has at this point, but I promise to provide insight from a few different angles on the guy and what it means to interact with him on any level(but obviously it will be mostly melee-oriented as that's why we're all on this site hahaha).




One more thing.....



























CRUSH GTFO MY THREAD IF YOU KEEP TROLLING YOU'RE NOT FUNNY


You make me incredibly angry when you troll everywhere. Like it's absurd. I want my thread to be productive and a hub for intelligent discussion, so if you must troll, then please do it everywhere else on swf please. I'm not asking this because you annoy me, but because I really do want my thread to be a great benefit for the smash community, and I think hardcore trolling is very detrimental to that. If you have an issue with this then I encourage you to PM/aim me so we can work this out instead of having another derailing discussion/session in my thread. I think you were a good poster before you started trolling btw, so if you stick around and do that here then I'd be cool with that. =)






Finally, a huuuuuge thank you to everyone who has been supportive of me in whatever way you have during all of this, even if it was just keeping this thread alive or helping me with my issues directly. I really do appreciate it. I'm very lucky I found such an incredible community and, just like I wanted to do before, I'd like to give back. This thread is hopefully one of my big ways of doing that.

<33333 smashers and long live Melee

 

[Veetaak]

Do you have any experience/opinion about the Sheik vs Falco match-up in Pal? Is it still in Sheiks favour or are her nerfs much more severe than Falco's?

Also: Glad to have you back on the falco boards and that you want to have productive discussions here =)

 

[crush]

CRUSH GTFO MY THREAD IF YOU KEEP TROLLING YOU'RE NOT FUNNY


You make me incredibly angry when you troll everywhere. Like it's absurd. I want my thread to be productive and a hub for intelligent discussion, so if you must troll, then please do it everywhere else on swf please. I'm not asking this because you annoy me, but because I really do want my thread to be a great benefit for the smash community, and I think hardcore trolling is very detrimental to that. If you have an issue with this then I encourage you to PM/aim me so we can work this out instead of having another derailing discussion/session in my thread. I think you were a good poster before you started trolling btw, so if you stick around and do that here then I'd be cool with that. =)

dang. the callout. ill be serious from now on. now is a good time because i noticed something i hadnt realized before in my smash lifetime. i went to a tourney yesterday and I played probably 3-4 hours of friendlies. irish mafia told me to only focus on 1-2 characters for this tournament and to only play those 1-2 in tournament. in those 4 or so hours of friendlies i probably played falco/fox a total of like 6 matches. i was playing mostly falcon/marth/sheik and then when i went to play falco/fox in pools and i did terrible. i got last in my pool after getting second in my pool the tournament before and then in amateur bracket i ended up losing to two people that i could 4 stock at my second tournament. when i played falco/fox in friendlies i was warmed up enough and playing fine but then in tournament i messed up dumb things like shinegrabs and ledgehops. although its not fun from now on should i just play spacies 90% of the time in friendlies instead of like ... never?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Do you have any experience/opinion about the Sheik vs Falco match-up in Pal? Is it still in Sheiks favour or are her nerfs much more severe than Falco's?

Also: Glad to have you back on the falco boards and that you want to have productive discussions here =)

I have no experience playing PAL at all and this makes me very sad. =(

I've never considered the matchup in PAL but Sheik's Dthrow tech chase may be a little bit harder but Falco loses some of the kills/combos he could get with that weaker Dair so it might even out?

dang. the callout. ill be serious from now on. now is a good time because i noticed something i hadnt realized before in my smash lifetime. i went to a tourney yesterday and I played probably 3-4 hours of friendlies. irish mafia told me to only focus on 1-2 characters for this tournament and to only play those 1-2 in tournament. in those 4 or so hours of friendlies i probably played falco/fox a total of like 6 matches. i was playing mostly falcon/marth/sheik and then when i went to play falco/fox in pools and i did terrible. i got last in my pool after getting second in my pool the tournament before and then in amateur bracket i ended up losing to two people that i could 4 stock at my second tournament. when i played falco/fox in friendlies i was warmed up enough and playing fine but then in tournament i messed up dumb things like shinegrabs and ledgehops. although its not fun from now on should i just play spacies 90% of the time in friendlies instead of like ... never?

Haha yeah spacies take a ton of effort to stay in practice with(every character does for consistency purposes but spacies have a heavier emphasis on this) so you should absolutely play more of them in friendlies. If they get somewhat dull to you there's no harm switching to another character(s) for a bit or playing in a different/more fun way for a while so that you can still enjoy playing the characters and learn new creative things to do with them(which gets put to use in your tryhard mode anyway so that's an all-around good idea). Definitely start with playing them more in friendlies though.


Edit: And I'm really glad you'll be serious. I don't mind the occasional joke or whatever though but I'm happy you understand dude. =)

 

[crush]

ive only played pal falco a little but i kinda like the non spike part of falcos dair for comboing sheik sometimes. not sure whether or not sheiks weaker u-air allows for better combos but i think it still goes slightly more towards falco in pal than ntsc

 

[JPOBS]

blah blah blah blahblah

THE MANGO POST WILL BE THE FIRST THING I DO!!!!

YES! its about time.

lol j/k. I read everything and I'm glad you're back PP. I look forward to anything and everything you have to say in the next few days. your opinion of matchups is funny. most of em are like "who knows?" lol <3

edit: about friendlies, most of the time, i can *only* play spacies in friendlies because i get REALLY annoyed by the weaknesses of other characters. Like, why the hell do marth and sheik take so long to reach the ground after a jump? i feel like a sitting duck gosh floaties are frustrating lol.

so yea, i basically only play fox/falco or falcon. everyone else is too damn slow lol

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Welcome back.

I'm probably going to retire from smash for a bit. I suddenly got a strong urge to play because I've been cooped up in New Jersey for a while and had too much leftover energy. However with school, and other responsibilities coming back, I don't think I'll have the time or energy to keep up for a while, so I'm just going to wait until I get that itch to play again. I feel very accomplished, especially watching vids of the 5 tournies I went to in the EC chronologically, I feel like I've met all my expectations and more. imma rest in peace for a little.

I figured you took some sort of break. I think it's incredibly healthy (smashwise or not) to just take a break and not force yourself to do something you don't want to do (especially if you have some obligation). Glad to have you back once again, and I look forward to seeing that Mango post.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Is there a limit on when shine -> bair stops working? It always seems to stop working around 100% when I keep trying (maybe too slow).

 

[Strong Badam]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbecsfGCZkE

 

[unknown522]

Haha yeah spacies take a ton of effort to stay in practice with(every character does for consistency purposes but spacies have a heavier emphasis on this) so you should absolutely play more of them in friendlies. If they get somewhat dull to you there's no harm switching to another character(s) for a bit or playing in a different/more fun way for a while so that you can still enjoy playing the characters and learn new creative things to do with them(which gets put to use in your tryhard mode anyway so that's an all-around good idea). Definitely start with playing them more in friendlies though.

Yeah man. My hands were hurting after playing so much fox yesterday at a tourney. I lost to M2K 3-1 in GFs (I beat his sheik with fox on FoD, after losing with falco on that map, and probably should've won game 4 in Fox v Marth on YS).

After losing to Bam with fox in WQs 2-0, then I couldn't take the pain and started playing my secondaries. I beat Vwins with Marth/Sheik in LQs, and I beat Bam 3-1. Game 1 and 3 were falco dittos (I lost as pichu on FD by 1 stock, and he went fox vs my falco game 4 and got *****).

Still, the thing that I wanted to tie into your post was about my hands hurting because I played almost all fox all day. My left index finger is actually swollen right now.

 

[SSBMLahti]

Welcome back.

I'm probably going to retire from smash for a bit. I suddenly got a strong urge to play because I've been cooped up in New Jersey for a while and had too much leftover energy. However with school, and other responsibilities coming back, I don't think I'll have the time or energy to keep up for a while, so I'm just going to wait until I get that itch to play again. I feel very accomplished, especially watching vids of the 5 tournies I went to in the EC chronologically, I feel like I've met all my expectations and more. imma rest in peace for a little.

I figured you took some sort of break. I think it's incredibly healthy (smashwise or not) to just take a break and not force yourself to do something you don't want to do (especially if you have some obligation). Glad to have you back once again, and I look forward to seeing that Mango post.

I watched the videos of you vs Jman and Mew2King today, and all I have to say is ****. Beating either of the two is definitely not an easy feat.

 

[Divinokage]

Heh spacies main hurt their hands.. Well it's understandable, I did try to play only Fox for 2 hours like 2 weeks ago and already my bones were hurting lol. Someone like me gets mind fried because I have to focus so hard to make the good decisions at the right times lol. I mean with Ganon.

 

[JPOBS]

all characters have to make good decisions at the right times.

 

[Divinokage]

Ok play Ganon at high level and see how much your mind gets destroyed. One mistake with Ganon = so much dmg, and you dont want that. Other characters can at least get away or have more tools to do so.

 

[unknown522]

it is really a pain in the *** to play ganon at a high level.

So hard to land hits on some characters (*cough*falco*cough*). Well, from my experience

 

[Strong Badam]

Ok play Ganon at high level and see how much your mind gets destroyed. One mistake with Ganon = so much dmg, and you dont want that. Other characters can at least get away or have more tools to do so.

One mistake with Ganon = so much dmg, and you dont want that.

so much dmg, and you dont want that.

...I don't?

 

[Divinokage]

Are you high level? Dammmmm!

Dmg is good though! Well not for someone fat like Ganon though.

 

[SSBMLahti]

Heh spacies main hurt their hands.. Well it's understandable, I did try to play only Fox for 2 hours like 2 weeks ago and already my bones were hurting lol. Someone like me gets mind fried because I have to focus so hard to make the good decisions at the right times lol. I mean with Ganon.

I can literally play Falco/Fox for 10 hours straight and my hands won't hurt. I guess I've done it so many times I'm used to it.

I'm sure if I mained someone else and played spacies for a couple of hours my hands would hurt. Hell, when I first picked up Falco and started learning AT's my thumb turned purple.

Melee

 

[Strong Badam]

but kage i love taking damage! why wouldn't i want that