Falco Discussion Thread

Dr Peepee

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Having platforms to camp under are nice until Fox decides whether he wants to run off bair/fall through bair/nair/dair, or just screw with you and make you think he's gonna do that....oh yeah shine waveland or other tricks like that. Falco doesn't have much of an answer for that stuff so he's limited to a smaller area/running around and that makes it much harder to watch Fox. Only Fox players think they can't do anything so Falco gets more time to watch Fox. Yay metagame!
 

Fernandez

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I always thought FD was a good stage for falco vs fox, you can control the stage so well with lasers, and an important thing in this match up is to keep the fox in his shield as much as possible and thats almost impossible on platform stages because he can just run around so easily.
Sure the fox can chaingrab on FD but its so more easy for falco to hit a shine/uptilt/anything theat leads to a combo then for a fox to get a grab.
 

Rubyiris

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I always thought FD was a good stage for falco vs fox, you can control the stage so well with lasers, and an important thing in this match up is to keep the fox in his shield as much as possible and thats almost impossible on platform stages because he can just run around so easily.
Sure the fox can chaingrab on FD but its so more easy for falco to hit a shine/uptilt/anything theat leads to a combo then for a fox to get a grab.
no it's infinitely easier for fox to get a grab than it is for falco to get in a combo starter vs a patient fox with good DI.
 

Druggedfox

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Except he's a sand nigger. get ***** sami. lol. oh, and he's somewhat good at melee, unlike my rusty ass haha.

I'll convert kevin is due time. he doesn't have enough stored inner bitterness to be in my small group of personal confidants lol.
:) at so much of this

PP, what's your favorite stage(s) to fight fox on?
 

Dr Peepee

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:) at so much of this

PP, what's your favorite stage(s) to fight fox on?
I like YS, but I like that stage for like every matchup lol. The combos are so easy to finish there. =p

Also, PS usually. Twitch's Fox is harder there though. Combos also go well there(unless the stage is different <.<).

BF is also good for me. I always forget about it though/don't like it because of my theory that Fox should **** there lol. Maybe I'll remember next time to use it....

FoD is random. Sometimes I'm amazing on it and sometimes I suck there. Generally, I'm better than I feel like I am on it though(if that makes any sense....maybe I beat my preconceptions about myself there or however you want to say it).

FD....I'm good enough there but am not consistent enough(aka perfect which you have to be for that matchup there) on it.

DL takes tons of focus and is gay lol. Ban that S vs Fox all day. That said I could figure out how to win there too(which is a somewhat complicated explanation that I don't feel like doing right now, but basically the bigger size and size of the platforms can kinda help in a way too), I'd just rather not lol.


Top 2? PS is one overall, and I can't decide between YS/BF for the other, even though I play on YS waaaaay more.

It's more of a "I hate DL and dislike FD usually" than a what I like most lol. I'm very weird compared to most Falcos and don't usually use myself as the standard for anything, although at this point I suppose I should.
 

Veetaak

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Does the size of a shield decide if I will get grabbed more easily? Because when I fight vs my friends Fox with my Falco it seems as if I do just as good shieldpressure when I get grabbed as when he can't grab me. I know I can space my nairs and dairs better but at the end of the day, I still end up infront of him a few times.
There is nothing more frustrating than getting grabbed from someone who shields :p

And also; Does fox have a better shield than Marth and Shiek? Cuz I seem to **** his shield more easily when he plays those chars.
 
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haha aight aight. maybe its the things u post that make ppl react a certain way. but its all good, we all just gotta be honest and keep learning.

i just wanna talk about ics vs falco matchup now

but i dont have much to say cuz i already discussed it in this thread with pp/fly

and havent learned much more bout the matchup cuz havent played it in a while.

i wanna play zhu
I played vs chu for over an hour right after PP lost to Armada in WFs. We played on FD only (because he kept picking it). I lost every game with fox, but won every game with falco. I think I can safely say on that level, lasers makes everything so much easier. I pretty much shot at him until I could restrict his movement, or get really close to him, then I would attack with something or sometimes bait a move and then punish. D-throw is amazing, and I managed go get a lot of combos and/or kill on nana after a throw. Chu was telling me that f-smash is amazing because ICs can't punish it. I felt awkward using it, so I didn't use it much unless I thought it would hit. My tech skill was fairly decent at that time and I didn't get shield-grabbed by him. The only thing that was really annoying was that I would sometimes hit only nana with something, and then get punished by popo and get massively combo'd/tech chased.

Carry nana across the stage with n-airs/d-airs then spiking her is gay. I wanted to play chu more but Amsah interrupted, because he wanted to play chu. So he played me in a set to see who plays chu (epic story).

Does the size of a shield decide if I will get grabbed more easily? Because when I fight vs my friends Fox with my Falco it seems as if I do just as good shieldpressure when I get grabbed as when he can't grab me. I know I can space my nairs and dairs better but at the end of the day, I still end up infront of him a few times.
There is nothing more frustrating than getting grabbed from someone who shields :p

And also; Does fox have a better shield than Marth and Shiek? Cuz I seem to **** his shield more easily when he plays those chars.
spacies have holes in their shield pressure. You get grabbed it they time it right.
 

Beat!

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It's probably either

You timing the shield pressure differently

or

Him timing his grab differently

Although if he's shielding and you do a SHFFL'd aerial to shine to retreating aerial, then he shouldn't be able to grab you anyways

edit: this was @ Veetak
 

Veetaak

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spacies have holes in their shield pressure. You get grabbed it they time it right.
Is there ways except SHFFL to decrease these holes? I have a harder time vs Fox to approach
unpredictebly, I guess that makes it a bit easier for him to time his grabs aswell

Edit: Sometimes he has the luck to grab me even before I do my airial. I srsly laugh everytime that happens.

Although if he's shielding and you do a SHFFL'd aerial to shine to retreating aerial, then he shouldn't be able to grab you anyways

edit: this was @ Veetak
I do try this at times but sometimes he grabs me before I get to do my shine. I might shine a bit too slow but idk. Practise makes perfect
 

Beat!

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If he grabs you between the first aerial and the shine then you're definitely too slow, unless you're doing a super-early aerial, or not FF-ing properly. Try delaying the aerial a little bit and see how that works.
 

DJRome

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actually, it just depends on when you aerial. sometimes you can do it at the first possible frame (the shine) and still get grabbed since u may aerial too early on shield
 

choknater

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according to fly, falco's fsmash has to be spaced right, or else it can be shield DI'd into falco for the shield grab. otherwise yes, it's a great move.

hehe, chudat has the most experience and the best approaching of any ic's... but unfortunately, he doesn't know all the tools. there were probably tons of anti laser trixies that he doesn't know how to use. the shield is usually reliable vs lasers, and shield wd's... but there are times where ic's can just do an attack that will break through the lasers and nana will hit falco. gotta keep him guessing!
 

Dr Peepee

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Okay, so I feel like writing something and am kinda bored lol. I think I'll write about how I learned to be confident and why it's so important in smash(you guys told me to write my stuff here so I will lol).

I've always viewed Melee and my improvement in smash as my own personal little life journey. Confidence was something I always wanted and knew I needed but I never knew how to get it. This aided me early in my smash career actually since I always set conservative, realistic goals and always pushed myself for validation from others to give me a semblance of the real confidence I needed in life. Despite improving, my early Falco style was extremely defensive because I never felt very confident in my approach. I always overwhelmed myself with what the opponent COULD do rather than what they WERE doing(a problem I struggle with in theory and in practice to a much less degree these days lol). I would never really figure out how to be confident on my own turns out. I needed to be shown how to do it. Lambchops was a huuuge factor in my push towards self-confidence. Everyone knows how raw that guy plays haha. Well, he came to HERB 2(big NC regional a couple of weeks after genesis) while he was staying in GA and I decided that I at least had to learn to aggro spacies(the matches I saw of him vs Jman were nasty so this helped convince me as well as me getting whupped by him too lol).

As I watched Chops, Mango, and Shiz play, my style naturally became influenced by them. I began to think of this game/character in terms of opportunities made and when they were capitalized upon. Shiz seems solid to me still because he takes the "correct" openings and always takes them(taking them so much gets him punished but people still succumb to the pressure so it tends to work out for him if his tech is on point lol). I made up my own rules for what openings I wanted to make and how I wanted to punish them(character/player dependent) and my style gradually became more aggressive the better I became. My struggle to get combos down was largely influenced by my confidence, and it's part of the reason why you can see me end combos early with a smash instead of dair tech chasing on a platform and continuing the combo a little farther to get that better damage to hit someone offstage with(sometimes I still advocate this but that's not the point lol).

I lost my set to Armada in WFs at Pound 5, and went off on my own to think about why I lost. A lot of old doubts started to creep in on me, and I found myself fighting a familiar fight. However, I was fortunately able to maintain control of my situation that time, and began to tell myself that Armada wasn't better than me necessarily. I re-watched a couple moments of the match where I felt stuck in my head, and realized that Armada was okay with me slowing the game down a lot because that let him cut me off stage-wise and get all of the trades he wanted. I felt like I lost confidence, and I knew that if I wanted to stand a chance, that I would have to believe in myself. I told myself I'd do it, but I hadn't finished working up the courage to keep the plan going when I was told I had to play Hungrybox. Fortunately, I was able to pull that set out so I could try my hand vs Armada again.

My strategy didn't really work more than usual, as I was down 2-1 in GFs quickly. That's when Hbox helped me find the drive to push. He told me I was having lapses in my play where I lost momentum, and he said that he wanted me to think of "someone who had wronged you" in order to keep my spirit going. Anyone that knows what my past year was like knows that this made it all too easy to get my fire started.

I was finally able to remain unphased by Armada's triumphs mid-game and felt myself controlling the match once again. Using my personal struggle for my benefit, as well as allowing the crowd to boost me gave me all the confidence I finally needed to turn the tides of our matches. The feeling after Pound didn't compare to taking control of myself and the set while it was going on. It really was a personal landmark for me.




...............

So why do you guys care? Well, I believe that, no matter who you are or what style you play, you have to be confident when you do execute. Even a bad read/play can be recovered from easier if you don't freak out and lose control of yourself after you execute. Learning to be a more competent smasher involves having faith in your own matchup knowledge/experience and then sticking to your ideas once a given match has started. If I think laser grab is a good idea vs Sheik, but that particular strategy doesn't work on someone like, say, Kirbykaze, then I have to re-evaluate my spacing and timing decisions regarding this tactic, not necessarily the tactic itself. If you're flip-flopping the whole match then you're taking away from time you could be spending to understand your opponent and learn how to build on what you already know about a matchup. Chances are, if you thought an idea was good in the first place, it probably is. Sometimes player habits and/or your own habits get in the way of its effectiveness though, and that's something you have to adapt to, not change all of your ideas/playstyle for it.

You can be a confident camper I believe. You just have to keep yourself from getting frustrated when you get booed or when your strategy isn't immediately effective/fails at times. Everyone gets figured out/punished sometimes, and it's important to remember that you don't have to fully change your style to an offensive/approaching one(unless you just enjoy the mixup) when you're losing.

Conversely, being punished for foolish approaches if you feel like being an aggro player will make your life frustrating as well. Resorting to angrily camping or simply trying to push harder are rarely effective options. Even if you're offensive-minded, there needs to be some way you allow for reading your opponent so that you can adapt and continue your comfortable onslaught as you see fit. There are different ways to allow for this as well, so one should never feel locked into a narrow mindset when adapting or solving a particular matchup. The higher you go in skill, the more flexible you have to be. You have to remember that your opponents will all be trying to change up on you as well, and this is only made harder by the fact that you have videos out so your habits will be even more identifiable. That gets into a much bigger topic that I may write about later though lol.

Anwyay, there are many ways to play this game well, and every style can be effective. You just have to be confident in your own way of doing things. =)




ps: sorry if I got too personal with this stuff. I'm a flowery-thinking guy and enjoy deeper meanings of things, especially writing, so I hope you guys can look past that stuff when responding to this and see the smash elements haha.

<333 if I get decent feedback from this I could start taking requests for topics or something lol. I have more I want to write about on my own so it doesn't matter to me either way lol.
 

stingers

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yo that was **** kevin. thanks for writing that =] it was inspiring.
im about to go listen to "all I do is win" and finish my pre-cal hw.

thanks for the boost

-stingers135
 

JPOBS

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love your post PP. I see a lot of myself in it.

One thing I notice about myself is that I also struggle with the "things he could be doing vs things he is doing" debate. And it causes me to hold back sometimes because I always give my opponents to much credit. I assume that they know the answer to my holes and i try to prevent being exploited, when in reality, most opponents don't know the answer or utilize them enough for me to have to hold back.

I dunno, I have these epiphanies sometimes, I'm tarting to realize i just need to be more confident and "just **** them" and not get shaken up when it doesn't work out the at first and just push through.
 

Divinokage

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Whoa that is very odd because I was talking about this to my friends 2 days ago.. don't be hesitant to finish combos or else you will get punished. I said to them just be confident and do it.

I guess it must be the theme these days.. =) Good read PP. Internal battles are amazing too.
 

KAOSTAR

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good **** pp. flower away my dude.

it would be tight if u could give any insight into reading your opponents, like what do u look for in countering and restricting movements...if that even makes sense
 

-Ice-

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That post about confidence and stuff was really good

PP where do you See Yourself on the World Rankings do you think You have to beat à all match serius going Mango before you can fully say you are the Best and what about armada are you guys Even or do allready surpassed him ?

Real interested to Hear your opinion about that .
 

Druggedfox

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PP, what's your take on multishining? I never really see you use it, but mixing up a double-shine in shield pressure isn't all that hard.
Pp will probably say some mix of reliability, consistency, difficulty, and confidence, but that its probably worth learning and when theres nothing more important he will get on it.

Of course thats just a prediction based on his responses to most somewhat risky/technical things :D
 

AvengerAngel

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Awesome post :D
I'll try to keep all that stuff in mind next time I play. I've always been worried as well about all those things my opponent COULD do an not about the things they're actually doing. This usually makes me play worse vs. players who are better than me, so I end up getting ***** way harder than I should x)
 
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