Falco, and his place in the metagame

[Super Lucario Sunshine]

I think he's pretty good, in terms of viability and not counting results I think he can be anywhere from B- - B+
Discuss

 

[Tenretsujin10]

I'd say he's mid tier.
- He has a great grab/grappling game.
- Great edgeguarding.
- Good close range game, especially his godsend of a D-tilt.
- Good combo strings.
- Pretty good raw kill options (F-smash and B-air)
- Can actually kill with his throws

What he lacks as a character:
- Poor approach options.
- Poor camping options (lasers are garbage, so is reflector).
- Kill setups like Fox/Diddy/Sheik.
- His kill throws are pretty weak, they don't kill until like 130+ with rage and the lasers can be avoided with DI.
- Butt recovery, would say it's probably worse than Fox's.

Overall he's decent, but there are a lot of characters that can do what he does plus some. So I would agree with a B- though B+

 

[EndlessRain]

He has excellent punish game across the board (combos/juggles, grab combos, edgeguarding and raw hits), terrible neutral across the board (no approach or camping options, and terrible disadvantage state (no options for escaping combos, easily-stopped recovery).

If you're winning, you're probably winning by quite a bit. But chances are you aren't winning. I place him around mid C tier. Perhaps low B, if only because neutral is generally more dependent on player than character anyway.

 

[IndigoSSB]

There's a reason why he's often associated as the "honest" character of the game. With all the buffs we've gotten I try not to complain to often, but Falco is about as good a character he can be without kill set-ups. Disregarding lack of results, solid mid tier sounds about right; doesn't impact the game too much but is viable as a main.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

@ EndlessRain posted exactly what I had in mind.
He shouldn't be placed any higher than a low B, one of his biggest faults is that he shouldn't approach in most situations.
Not having that option is a huge disadvantage, the neutral game is and has always been very important.

 

[EndlessRain]

It is a bad idea to approach, but his ability to force approaches isn't all that good either. It's a nasty spot to be in.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

It is a bad idea to approach, but his ability to force approaches isn't all that good either. It's a nasty spot to be in.

A terrible camping game with a terrible approach. The woes of a Falco player.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Samurai pls give back Maylay nair
At least with that we won't have to RAR bair all the time

 

[Tenretsujin10]

Samurai pls give back Maylay nair
At least with that we won't have to RAR bair all the time

Pfffft, give us back usable lasers and Dair. I don't get how they can give Falco's dair the exact same frame data as Captain Falcon's but make it a lot weaker at the same time.

 

[Ffamran]

Pfffft, give us back usable lasers and Dair. I don't get how they can give Falco's dair the exact same frame data as Captain Falcon's but make it a lot weaker at the same time.

Meanwhile, Luigi with his frame 10, 10% Dair spike that has the same 80 knockback growth, but 10 more base knockback - Falco only has 10. Luigi's late hit is frames 11-14, does 8%, has 20 base, and 100 growth while Falco's is frames 20-30, does 8%, 20 base, and 90 growth. We win in active frames, but it's still a slow move. I think they made it more like Wolf's Dair. Yeah, pretty much... Wolf's was frame 16-17, did 15% or 13%, has 6 base, and 90 growth. Falco's Dair auto-cancel windows are like Wolf's too: before frame 4 and after frame 36 which is 2 frames shorter than Falco's. Used to be that Falco could auto-cancel before frame 4 and after frame 27. Landing lag is different, same as always for Falco: 23.

Difference between Falco and Captain Falcon's is that the Capt.'s is frames 16-18, does 14%, has 10 base for the spike, 40 for the regular hit, 100 growth, 21 frames of landing lag, and his auto-cancel windows is before 4 and after 39. Oh, and he runs and moves in the air much faster, so he can follow you easily. Also, it's not as telegraphed since he doesn't windup like Falco.

That being said, we have a Dair that doesn't spike grounded opponents meaning people cannot tech unless they're hit while airborne. We can sort of pillar or setup like that, but it's a slow move. Now, if it was frame 12, maybe it would be easier. Eh, I wouldn't mind if it was frame 10, but now it no longer spikes at all. Killing vertically with a Dair that functions like that? Pretty unique.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

That being said, we have a Dair that doesn't spike grounded opponents meaning people cannot tech unless they're hit while airborne. We can sort of pillar or setup like that, but it's a slow move. Now, if it was frame 12, maybe it would be easier. Eh, I wouldn't mind if it was frame 10, but now it no longer spikes at all. Killing vertically with a Dair that functions like that? Pretty unique.

Falco has it so rough this game :/

 

[Tankendog]

I think his DAir is just outclassed by Fair in almost any situation. Forward Air will spike if clangs, has a longer active window, good knock back, can come out on ground on frame 1. Other than lack of style points for spiking someone, I just feel like there is so many other options.

How to fix it without making it broken? Thats a real good question. If it were like Melee Dair, It would potentially be too good. I would reduce the start up lag, Hard spike as is, but give it a Soft spike sort of like Kirby's Dair. I wouldn't however give it the auto-cancel like Kirby's, as it be just too good then with Falco having Nair and Dair cancel on ground.

I would say the fastest way to make Falco climb up the power scale is to reduce Laser lag in anyway, but I think that change is being avoided at all costs. Though with Shiek and ZSS able to abuse their projectiles like crazy, I dont see why.

 

[EndlessRain]

I've said it before, but I think if we got autocancel lasers and had absolutely nothing else changed, we would jump to at least high tier. It would also have the unfortunate side effect of making Falco an unbearable matchup for all those other characters with poor approach game. Personally, I wouldn't mind, but I'd feel damn sorry for all those poor Ganon mains we'd be abusing. It would give us pretty crazy control of the neutral game, which is nice for us but awful for most other people. It's the easy fix but I just can't see it happening.

 

[Ffamran]

I've said it before, but I think if we got autocancel lasers and had absolutely nothing else changed, we would jump to at least high tier. It would also have the unfortunate side effect of making Falco an unbearable matchup for all those other characters with poor approach game. Personally, I wouldn't mind, but I'd feel damn sorry for all those poor Ganon mains we'd be abusing. It would give us pretty crazy control of the neutral game, which is nice for us but awful for most other people. It's the easy fix but I just can't see it happening.

I'd rather take general low end lag so Falco isn't reliant on short hop lasers. So, instead of auto-cancel windows, it could be something like ground Blaster has 45 total frames and aerial Blaster has 40. This means he'd have 14 less frames of end lag for ground Blaster and 10 less for aerial. For reference, Greninja's current Water Shuriken has 45 total frames. This would let Falco play at range better while not being as overwhelming like in Melee or Brawl or like Sheik. Aerial Blaster with 40 total frames would be like Fox's current Blaster which has 39 total frames.

Current stand of Falco is he's probably a mid-tier and in a similar position to Brawl Wolf and Fox or Brawl Ike at worse or Melee Ganondorf. He's got strong tools, but noticeable and subtle flaws that do hold him back. One flaw being his disadvantage state which has always been a thing, but his other major flaw is his neutral. Falco's neutral is positional; close-range, he's good, mid-range, he's bad, and long-range, he's kind of bad, but if he's far enough, nothing's really going to happen, so whatever. Falco's neutral can fluctuate from say, a 3/5 at close-range to 1.5/5 to 2/5 at mid-range and 2/5 at long-range. Part of it is his slow movement speed, but the other part is his dysfunctional mid- and long-range game: Blaster. As what is a zoner or anti-zoner, not having a decent projectile kind of defeats the purpose of being a zoner. It'd be like if we took out Ryu's Hadouken in Street Fighter V and expect him to somehow always be at close-range. He'd need something like Ken's V-Skill that moves him forward or Nash's V-Skill that nullifies projectiles. Falco makes up everything by his outstanding advantage and edgeguard game all in part because of his strong, fast moves. Given a functional projectile, therefore, a functional neutral, Falco would be a definite mid-tier and potentially, a high-mid like Ike and Marth. He'd also be one of the more flexible high-mids given his ability to handle footsies and close combat well, play at range, edgeguard, and kill and setup, although not guaranteed, with practically anything.

Given that patches exist, I'd like these changes. Don't go starting making stuff like this, okay? It's just a one-time only deal from me.

Falco
-----
Jab
Jab 1 total frames 22 -> 17
Jab 2 total frames 26 -> 20
Rapid jab *something to make it link better*

Side Smash
Side Smash startup 17 -> 16

?Bair
Bair late hitbox removed
Bair clean hit active frames 2 -> 3
Bair total frames 37 -> 34

Dair
Dair startup 16 -> 12
Dair clean hit damage 13% -> 11%

Grab
Standing grab startup 8 -> 7

Blaster
Ground Blaster total frames 58 -> 45
Aerial Blaster total frames 49 -> 40
Burst Blaster total frames 39 -> 36

Falco Phantasm
*functional hitbox*

Fire Bird
*hitbox alterations to make it link more properly; blame the charge hits for sending people up and away from him at 70 degrees*
Fire Bird launch 44 -> 36

Reflector
Reflector (All)
New hitbox on Falco's leg; same startup as all Reflectors, 2 active frames, 2%, weighted knockback to lead into Reflector hitbox
Reflector total frames 50 -> 44
Accele-Reflector total frames 50 -> 44

Some of them are self-explanatory and some of them are logical. Jab changes more so for the safety of Falco when his rapid jab can be interrupted; Falco so much as hesistates or his opponent starts mashing buttons and have a frame 5 or below aerial or move, and they can punish him. His jab was not abusive at all in Brawl compared to pre-patch 1.1.0 Fox's jab. Just 1 frame more than his Brawl jab total frames, but not the +5 to jab 1 and +7 to jab 2 from Brawl to Smash 4. Side Smash is well... 1 frame more from Brawl to Smash 4 - completely unnecessary, so let's change it back. It's a minor thing, though.

Bair has a question mark since if you mess with it even slightly and he can end up with a really broken move. Removal of the late hitbox since it's not longer a lingering Bair like his old, Melee and Brawl Bair, so let's get rid of it. 1 more active frame might not be necessary, but it's just there. The total frames, however, is an issue where if it's too low, Falco would be able to spam it like Wolf, his was 29 total frames. 34 is okay since it means he acts at frame 35 which is kind of compensation for a lack of a late, lingering hit.

Dair... Faster than frame 16, but still a kind of slow move. Frame 10 could work, but it has a 15 active frames and 4 of them are for his clean/spike hit. Made it weaker because of that. Frame 12 would probably allow him to combo from and setup using Dair much more easily.

Grab: reverting it back to Melee grab startup. Nothing major here. Hmm... I wouldn't mind a F-throw kill throw from Falco...

Covered Blaster already, but Burst Blaster? Yeah, that's a case of when you alter all of Fox's Blasters, but don't touch a thing on Falco's, his Burst Blaster ends up with no redeeming qualities compared to Fox's default Blaster. Gave it lower end lag to fix this since that was its edge on Fox's which it no longer has since it share the same end lag now for much less range and lower overall damage. Probably should have some end lag changes to Explosive Blaster as well...

I don't need to say much for Falco Phantasm and Fire Bird except why the launch startup reduction? Fox launches at frame 43 and Falco at frame 44, but Fox covers a little over half of Final Destination while Falco covers only a third. Launching at 36 would just help Falco a bit so it has some edge on Fox's Fire Fox rather than being strictly an inferior version in contrast to other derived moves like Dolphin Slash vs. Blazer, the different version of Super Jump Punch, and Dark Dive vs. Falcon Dive.

Reflector with kick hitbox is a logic thing. I mean, he's kicking you, so why isn't there a hitbox? Just a safety and logic reason. Lower end lag is there just 'cause.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

snip

11/10 Explanation on buffing Falco. Covered fixing his subpar frame data and fixing his recovery so it isn't as butt. If Falco ever saw the necessary buffs and changes to improve him, this would be it.

 

[Ffamran]

11/10 Explanation on buffing Falco. Covered fixing his subpar frame data and fixing his recovery so it isn't as butt. If Falco ever saw the necessary buffs and changes to improve him, this would be it.

He actually is one of the fastest and hardest hitting characters in the game, but he's one of the slower-moving characters and he has noticeably dysfunctional moves like Blaster, Up Smash which was fixed in patch 1.0.6, Nair which was altered in 1.0.8, and his jab against faster hitting characters like Fox, Luigi, and Sheik. Falco Phantasm is a weird series of questions as to why its hitbox is like that, Dair is his most situational move even in comparison to Side Smash which at least sees usage as an anti-air because of its transcendent priority and as a punish tool, and Fire Bird is strictly inferior compared to Fire Fox. It's mostly his Specials that are dysfunctional with Reflector as his best one which isn't saying much with 1 situational move - makes sense since it's a spike. That's pretty good compared to other characters since Falco would have at least 80% of his moveset considered useful.

This is contrasted by Captain Falcon who actually has average frame data except for jab, Uair, Nair, and Bair, but he makes up everything by insane speed, an amazing dash grab, and that his good moves are just that good.

 

[teluoborg]

I've been playing my fair share of Falco those days after finishing my mourning of Brawl Falco and boy did the buffs transform him since vanilla. By looking at his options and how they fit in the meta I'd say he's easily top 20.

A lot of people here are saying his neutral is bad and I disagree. He has 3 tools that make his neutral good : Bair, Dtilt and IAP (SH side B). Bair and Dtilt are simply unpunishable when spaced and can open combos easily, with Dtilt having a range that is way too good for how fast it is. Despite lacking its second hitbox side B has low endlag, is safe at mid range and can lead into Bair at kill percents.

The only changes that I think he really needs are a second hitbox on his side B, better connection between jab2 and multijab, and a slightly faster grab. Dair could be better but it doesn't really matter since it will never be the Brawl frame 4 Dair and Falco's Bair Fair and Nair are all good to gimp or kill offstage.

Ffamran for playing almost full Falcon since the game is out I can say that even if Falcon has more kill power I feel like he's a way more situational character than Falco. Falcon's neutral is very bad once people learn the spacing of his dash grab and he relies mostly on his opponent being afraid of him to get early kills. He's good because his high risk moves come with high reward and he benefits greatly from rage, but beside that he's a top tier sandbag that will eat every combo and gimp that is thrown at him.

 

[Y3llowR@ven]

I'd say he's mid tier.
- He has a great grab/grappling game.
- Great edgeguarding.
- Good close range game, especially his godsend of a D-tilt.
- Good combo strings.
- Pretty good raw kill options (F-smash and B-air)
- Can actually kill with his throws

What he lacks as a character:
- Poor approach options.
- Poor camping options (lasers are garbage, so is reflector).
- Kill setups like Fox/Diddy/Sheik.
- His kill throws are pretty weak, they don't kill until like 130+ with rage and the lasers can be avoided with DI.
- Butt recovery, would say it's probably worse than Fox's.

Overall he's decent, but there are a lot of characters that can do what he does plus some. So I would agree with a B- though B+

Lasers and Reflector are garbage? lol

 

[Tenretsujin10]

Lasers and Reflector are garbage? lol

In terms of camping yes, they're garbage. If the opponent shields reflector, it's pretty much a guaranteed punish. If you shoot lasers too close to your opponent, say half of FD, it's pretty much a guaranteed punish.

 

[Super Lucario Sunshine]

In terms of camping yes, they're garbage. If the opponent shields reflector, it's pretty much a guaranteed punish. If you shoot lasers too close to your opponent, say half of FD, it's pretty much a guaranteed punish.

Use them sparingly and when you know you can't get punished, they can be very useful

 

[teluoborg]

But lasers only have 2 uses and none of them is camping. The first use is to eat the second jump of people from the stage when they're recovering and the second one is to get the percent lead by using it twice at the beginning of a match.
The endlag makes it way too risky to use to camp especially for only 3% and no follow up.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

Use them sparingly and when you know you can't get punished, they can be very useful

Comparing them to other characters who have far superior camping options (Pikachu's thunderjolt, Yoshi's Egg Toss, etc.), Falco's Lasers & Reflector seem like butt.

 

[Super Lucario Sunshine]

Comparing them to other characters who have far superior camping options (Pikachu's thunderjolt, Yoshi's Egg Toss, etc.), Falco's Lasers & Reflector seem like butt.

Yes but they have uses

 

[NotAnAdmin]

They have uses that's true but for the most part they aren't something you can rely on.
At least Mario and Pikachu have a good projectile that can lead to a punish. Falco's lasers should only be used for chip damage or off stage pressure.
I like to just throw them out when I get the feel my opponent won't think I'll use it.

 

[Anragon]

I honestly think he's in a OK position right now. He's meant to be a close-range character and imo he's doing a good job at it by having one of the greatest frame data in the game. He's not a bad character but he isn't one of the best either.

Though I would appreciate a fix on his Jab in the next patches because getting punished just by the horrendous lag we get from canceling Jab 1 or 2 feels a little too restrictive. If the opponent character has a frame 2, 3 hitbox you get hit 80% of the time, even during Rapid Jab lol.

Also, restoring Side-B hitboxes at the middle/end of the move would be cool too (quite strong actually).

Laser canceling removed is fine. Just use them to harass off stage or cancel particular approaches (like Sonic charging his B-moves).

 

[Tenretsujin10]

I honestly think he's in a OK position right now. He's meant to be a close-range character and imo he's doing a good job at it by having one of the greatest frame data in the game. He's not a bad character but he isn't one of the best either.

Though I would appreciate a fix on his Jab in the next patches because getting punished just by the horrendous lag we get from canceling Jab 1 or 2 feels a little too restrictive. If the opponent character has a frame 2, 3 hitbox you get hit 80% of the time, even during Rapid Jab lol.

Also, restoring Side-B hitboxes at the middle/end of the move would be cool too (quite strong actually).

Laser canceling removed is fine. Just use them to harass off stage or cancel particular approaches (like Sonic charging his B-moves).

They gave us a frame 3 nair... with terrible combobreaking potential...

 

[Anragon]

They gave us a frame 3 nair... with terrible combobreaking potential...

Frame 3 is ok when you see others nairs actually hitting on the same frame. Luigi's, (Dr.)Mario's, Pikachu's, etc... Most of them start on frame 3 too.

The combobreaking part is sadly true. It won't force the ennemy out by knocking him far enough of us (even at all lol). Then... just deal with it i guess.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

Frame 3 is ok when you see others nairs actually hitting on the same frame. Luigi's, (Dr.)Mario's, Pikachu's, etc... Most of them start on frame 3 too.

The combobreaking part is sadly true. It won't force the ennemy out by knocking him far enough of us (even at all lol). Then... just deal with it i guess.

Sometimes I don't know whether to even attempt to combobreak with it or just take the current combo. Because either option I pick ends up with the same outcome.

 

[FalcoReaper 64]

Alright so I came up with some buffs that I think could help Falco alot:

1- Jabs should have less end lag
2- Fair autocancels on short hop
3- Increase his air speed
4- make him slightly faster
5- The Hitbox of his Side B should be active until the move ends

This is just my opinion...feel free to tell me what you think

 

[Tenretsujin10]

Alright so I came up with some buffs that I think could help Falco alot:

1- Jabs should have less end lag
2- Fair autocancels on short hop
3- Increase his air speed
4- make him slightly faster
5- The Hitbox of his Side B should be active until the move ends

This is just my opinion...feel free to tell me what you think

No laser buff at all?

 

[Vexx_]

I really think Falco is a B-, C Tier. I like the character very much, i think falco is pretty easy to learn and was my first character since the begining.

What bothers me most it's his lack of options. His lasers are not good, he has few aproach options, his frames are too big and every little mistake are almost a guarantee punish. I always have the feeling that in a late match, when the oponnent is above 70%, the match becomes really hard as Falco doesn't have any true combos or easy kill options to finish the match and his kills options are easy to read and avoid. Little changes, as the ones Ffamran said could give Falco a big boost at competitive play.

I don't think Falco will be buffed in next patches. There's been 2 or 3 patches that nothing was changed and he already got a fair number of buffs. Things could be better, it's true, but I think he is a "perfect" character for Sakurai now.

I don't need to say much for Falco Phantasm and Fire Bird except why the launch startup reduction? Fox launches at frame 43 and Falco at frame 44, but Fox covers a little over half of Final Destination while Falco covers only a third. Launching at 36 would just help Falco a bit so it has some edge on Fox's Fire Fox rather than being strictly an inferior version in contrast to other derived moves like Dolphin Slash vs. Blazer, the different version of Super Jump Punch, and Dark Dive vs. Falcon Dive.

The only reason i see to Falco's Fire Bird have a smaller reach compared to Fox its because Falco have one of the highest jumps in the game. Maybe if the reach was like the Fox Fire Bird it could turn into an OP recovery as Falco can jump much higher than Fox. I really agree with you about the frame reduction as could improve Falco's recovery but not turn him OP, only less gimpable and predictable.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Fair auto-cancels at short hop height?!?

That's too good if you ask me, the priority is already super high, the beak is intangible and the hitbox reaches pretty far into his body. Having all that plus a landing hitbox and no landing lag is too good.
I think it's just right in this patch, a well spaced fair is pretty hard to punish now with the recovery frames being cut. Throw out a jab/ftilt/roll/spot dodge to diffuse the situation if they make an approach....

However, if we want a truly broken fair, we need the crazy "drag them to oblivion" pre-patch version but with all the recovery frame/start-up frame buffs.

 

[theONEjanitor]

falco either needs a run-speed/air speed buff or a laser buff. that's literally it. His moveset is amazing he's just slow as hell.