Extended slides ((Step Dash Info))

[Conn1496]

[Disclaimer]: This was tested on 3DS, I don't have the Wii U version to test on, so experimentation there would be appreciated!

Just wondering about this since it's something I kept experimenting with in practice. I'm pretty bad at it, and I'll try and explain it the best I can, but it's pretty hard to explain without being able to give visual examples, honestly.

Basically, inputting ,, causes you to quickly slide mid-stand/crouch along the ground. Repeating the inputs can result in a pretty weird looking fast slide - for some (if not most) characters, it's pathetically slow and useless, or they just don't slide at all, but for some you seem to actually keep speed without really coming out of crouch, and with the correct timing, you seem to actually slide faster than walking speed, and you can use that slide to slide into tilts and other inputs from this weird crouching slide state.

The timing on it is pretty weird (I admit I'm awful at it.), and it seems more dependent on your characters initial walking acceleration and slide/crouch physics as opposed to their actual walking speed, and for some characters, it's nigh-impossible due to them having a crawl which interrupts the slide gained from stopping your initial walking momentum with a crouch.

The only way I can explain it working is that you're overlapping the initial acceleration of your walk with the slide gained from cancelling it with a crouch, meaning that you can overlap multiple slides and move forward at speed without actually dashing. So characters with good traction and/or initially slow walks don't benefit from this at all. -though that being said, I don't know the actual physics of why it works. It could just be that some characters slide faster than they walk.

I found it was most noticable with or , both of who can slide forward at a notably fast speed if performed well enough. -but I didn't test all characters for it. I'm not even entirely sure on the timings for it. Sometimes it works insanely well and other times I basically don't move an inch, but I'm assuming that's just down to my awful timing with it.

I really just wanted to know if anyone else had knowledge on this - Is it useful? Is it known? etc.

[Edit]: (Changed title from "Crouch Sliding." to "Extended Slides" since it feels more appropriate.)

List of characters confirmed to be able to do this - All characters who can can do a sliding standgrab:
(Meta Knight's is probably the best, he can slide 1/4FD+ distance and Jab/D-Smash while sliding. His slidegrab can also rival his dash-grab. Probably the one you'll want to practice this tech with in the first place.)
(Distance and speed can rival MK's, but the character specific usefulness is unknown to me right now. Her's is also more difficult to perform due to her initially slower walk. However her crouch is already pretty good, so it could be used to slide under moves.)
(Samus' slide is only about 1/8-1/6th distance, but it seems to have the weird property of being possible from just a crouch. Can be performed with D-smash.) [Samus is a complete anomaly. I have no idea what makes her's work quite different (I theorise it's her walk.), but I think due to this, I am incredibly far from optimising it.]
(About 1/6th FD and allows for F-tilt, D-smash and D-tilt use. His sliding standgrab also can compete with his dashgrab when optimised.)
(Kirby's is not great, barely over 1/8th FD optimised. Can be used with F-tilt, D-smash. I revisited this and think a better Kirby player could potentially get a little better distance.)
(Pika can do it from just crouching by rolling the stick from crouch to crawl to walk. Walk > Crawl/Crouch > Walk still works fine though. Overall difficult to do due to the timing of it, but gets you about 3 or 4 character distances, potentially even more. D-tilt can be used.)
(Luigi has one, but it's use is very limited simply by the fact that whenever I did manage it, it wasn't much further than Luigi's regular sliding (Someone might be able to do it better than me though.) - it seems to be slightly boosted by his crawl similar to Pika's. He can D-smash, Fireball (-and D-taunt! lol) out of it and it is marginally faster than a regular slide if you manage it. (Still, far from recommended due to the difficulty to optimise and little reward.))
(Lucario is capable of one that gets you about just over 1/8th FD. Can be used with D-Smash. Not much else to really note.)
/(They can slide just around 1/6 of FD with a good slide. Jab and U-tilt seem the most useful non-grab moves from the slide.)
(Has one that rival's the Pits'. D-tilt can be used with strict timing/inputs, as can D-smash. Can be done right out of crawl too, making this one of the easier ones to perform. However, it's difficult to optimise and it seems like dash grab will always get you more range.)
(Can slide about 1 or 2 character widths from crouch with D-tilt, F-tilt and D-smash (I think? I'm really unsure with Rosa in general.). Very similar to Jr's all in all. People better with Rosa than me might be able to optimise this better or find uses for it.)
(Has one, though the timing is incredibly difficult to optimise due to his walk's comparitively slow start. When optimised though, the grab can outright beat his (admittedly bad) dash grab's range. Seemingly can also be used with D-smash. Just about over 1/6th FD distance.)
(Can slide about 1/6th FD distance when optimised. Unsure if it rivals dashgrab, but he can do F-tilt, D-tilt and D-smash out of it. I also think U-tilt works.)
(About 1/6th FD distance optimised. D-smash works, but other than grab, nothing else notable. I thought I managed to get D-tilt to work, but I couldn't recreate it.)
(Falco has one that's just as difficult as Fox's (probably harder due to Falco's overall slower speed) but gets some fairly noticable distance - just over 1/6th distance when optimised, but you'll usually get something shorter. Grab falls a little short of dash-grab range. D-smash and D-tilt both work too.)

(Putting these two down here BC they can do it from my testing. Too busy to elaborate RN. lol)

-if anyone can improve on these feel free to post about it!

 

[ryuu seika]

If it's possible with them and the speed is decent, Kirby and Jigglypuff might gain a lot from this.

 

[Conn1496]

Okay, I just wanted to bump this since it mostly got glazed over and I actually have more to share on the topic.

First off, let me just mention that has an incredibly long extended crouch slide range. With a good slide he can cover roughly 1/4 of FD (If you're fast enough, you can even start a jab going while doing so.).

Second, I've managed to semi-reliably recreate the technique in practice (I'm just awful at the timing (Especially since it seems different for every character who can do it.).), and as far as I can tell it's actually exactly how I described - you are overlapping the momentum of what are usually very weak crouch slides that can be naturally performed by a fair number of the cast into an extended slide of sorts. A character's sliding distance when holding crouch from a regular walk will often give a good indication of who's extended crouch slides are good or not, but I'm unsure how walk speed/crouch animations can or if they at all affect the technique.

To elaborate, it seems there's "sweet frames" where coming out of crouch into a walk will increase the length of a crouch slide you do the closer you are to it. Allowing your crouch slide to buffer (Basically, there's another sweet frame on the crouch which I think is when you're fully crouched.), then canceling it into another walk will carry over the momentum from the first improved slide into a second if your timing is accurate enough (I think this next crouch has to be when the acceleration on your initial walk is highest.), leading to a more than noticeable slide distance.

There are limitations to this - character being the main one so far, but it seems like as long as your character has an ample slide, they can do the tech to some extent - a lot of actions will stop your momentum dead in place (As I mentioned before, Meta Knight's Jab doesn't so even some moves seem more than usable during this since I don't think MK's Jab will be the only one.), and obviously, your timing and inputs have to be dead on to make the most of it (Especially with characters like Luigi who have crawls.).

Still, I would suggest more people look into this - if you can't nail the timings or don't see a difference for your character, at least try Meta Knight. His is by far the easiest extended slide to perform!

 

[MockRock]

Yeah, I remember seeing a video on this a few weeks back; more specifically, it featured Bayonetta, who actually gains quite a bit from this. From my understanding, her and Meta Knight have better results than any other character with this particular tech. Not actually sure that it has a solid name.

 

[Conn1496]

Yeah, I remember seeing a video on this a few weeks back; more specifically, it featured Bayonetta, who actually gains quite a bit from this. From my understanding, her and Meta Knight have better results than any other character with this particular tech. Not actually sure that it has a solid name.

Well, I found the tech with the Koopas and Samus, which is why I said in the OP I think they have the best - but apparently not, Meta Knight's is incredible and I just checked Bayo's which, while being harder to perform, can certainly rival MK's in distance. I don't know about usability, but yeah, those two certainly have the best distance/speed I've seen for sure. Really, I just stick to calling it an extended slide, since that's basically what it is - extending the distance and speed of an already occurring slide.



--as a few other misc. side notes I found today, I found you can actually start the extended slide with certain actions outside of crouch, like Meta Knight's or Samus' D-Smash. As long as you interrupt the walk-from-crouch with an action that doesn't stop or have it's own grounded momentum, you can do it into a slide, meaning that the extended slide can be used with them too.
-also, it goes without really saying, but I'll mention it anyway - the initial slide that you're going to overlap with the crouch>walk>interrupt to perform the extended slide can come from any other source, which means you can even do this tech from landing a jump with forward momentum as long as you land with a crouch.
Last but not least, some characters (I found this with Samus.) can get similar results from a simple crouch>walk>interrupt without the need for an initial slide at all, though I assume they can get better results from an already existing slide the difference with Samus atleast was so negligible that this method seems more efficient. I also tested this with Meta Knight, but funnily enough, this method doesn't seem to apply to him, though I could be wrong.

I'll also add a list of characters who can do it with a couple of notes about each to the OP! I'll keep updating because this tech interests me a lot, honestly.

 

[Jiom]

Just want to say I stumbled across this yesterday and although not being able to successfully pull it off, kinda thought you exaggerated the distance a bit.. But I tried it today with success and it might even be 1/2 the length of FD when you do it right.

Thanks for your postings of this too, helped me learn a lot.

 

[Conn1496]

Just want to say I stumbled across this yesterday and although not being able to successfully pull it off, kinda thought you exaggerated the distance a bit.. But I tried it today with success and it might even be 1/2 the length of FD when you do it right.

Thanks for your postings of this too, helped me learn a lot.

No problem, I'm still kinda learning things about this myself. lol. This was made a while ago, so any actual exaggerations are probably just hype from the discovery. Still, the distance on these slides is so varied, I think there'll be people optimising long slides for a fair while yet. I definitely believe I didn't cover all of the characters and options in this thread, but who knows how this will develop!

 

[Sail Hatan Gaming]

So, is this just stage humping or am I missing something? Anyone have a video?

 

[Conn1496]

So, is this just stage humping or am I missing something? Anyone have a video?

There was another thread with a very specific Bayonetta example that had a video from a tournament that even commentators picked up on. It's not super visible, but I don't have any personal footage (Really wish I could get a good example, would love to show MK getting half FD distance.), so unfortunately, you'll probably have to nail it yourself if you want to see anything.

I learned it's actually pretty easy to perform with a grab input as you walk rather than a second crouch since there's no chance of you interrupting it, and the input is more comfortable. It also mean you can see the results clearly if you pull it off. Walk, crouch (Make sure you actually complete the crouch animation.), then as soon as you're walking again, hit the grab button. If you manage to pull it off as MK (Who I suggest you practice it as first.) there's a noticeable speed increase, and a very noticeable slide. It's a huge difference compared to a regular walking grab.

The timing is really important, it's harder than the input for certain. Messing up the timing will get a regular slide or it'll be barely noticable. But certain characters can really make a big distance with it.

This is a pretty old thread before I was as knowledgeable on it (as you can see, it's a mess), and I still don't think I'm anywhere near optimising it. Honestly, the easiest use for it in an actual match is as Jr. since F-tilt and stand-grab don't stop momentum and counts as an interrupt for the walk animation, and both really benefit from the slight artificial range boost it gives.

Either way, the jist is:
1) [Forward momentum] (Quite a few things will count. Sheik can start with a crawl, and Bayo can apparently use landlag from certain moves.)
2) [Walk] (I don't know how long this has to last, but there's an obvious timing sweetspot for this.)
3) [Walk interrupt] (that doesn't stop momentum)
Not all characters can do it either, so just keep that in mind, and good luck.

 

[Sail Hatan Gaming]

There was another thread with a very specific Bayonetta example that had a video from a tournament that even commentators picked up on. It's not super visible, but I don't have any personal footage (Really wish I could get a good example, would love to show MK getting half FD distance.), so unfortunately, you'll probably have to nail it yourself if you want to see anything.

I learned it's actually pretty easy to perform with a grab input as you walk rather than a second crouch since there's no chance of you interrupting it, and the input is more comfortable. It also mean you can see the results clearly if you pull it off. Walk, crouch (Make sure you actually complete the crouch animation.), then as soon as you're walking again, hit the grab button. If you manage to pull it off as MK (Who I suggest you practice it as first.) there's a noticeable speed increase, and a very noticeable slide. It's a huge difference compared to a regular walking grab.

The timing is really important, it's harder than the input for certain. Messing up the timing will get a regular slide or it'll be barely noticable. But certain characters can really make a big distance with it.

This is a pretty old thread before I was as knowledgeable on it (as you can see, it's a mess), and I still don't think I'm anywhere near optimising it. Honestly, the easiest use for it in an actual match is as Jr. since F-tilt and stand-grab don't stop momentum and counts as an interrupt for the walk animation, and both really benefit from the slight artificial range boost it gives.

Either way, the jist is:
1) [Forward momentum] (Quite a few things will count. Sheik can start with a crawl, and Bayo can apparently use landlag from certain moves.)
2) [Walk] (I don't know how long this has to last, but there's an obvious timing sweetspot for this.)
3) [Walk interrupt] (that doesn't stop momentum)
Not all characters can do it either, so just keep that in mind, and good luck.

Pretty neat, after doing it for a while it seems that Meta Knight goes as far as an optimal Super Pivot though it's harder to perform. Seems pretty useful but I think using U-turns and Super Pivots will work better overall. Also the footage of Bayonetta seems to be similar to a Pivot Landing. You should definitely get footage so I can make sure i'm getting the max distance.

 

[MarioManTAW]

I did a little bit of testing on this. All of my testing was done using a dash as the initial momentum and a grab as the walk interrupt. I've only tested 3 characters (that haven't already been tested), but I plan to do more testing soon. Here's what I came up with.

: Possible to perform. If timed correctly, can go farther than a standard dash grab.
: Possible to perform, but goes shorter than a standard dash grab. Probably not useful.
: I tried, but I was not able to replicate it with Cloud. Probably needs further testing, but may not be possible.
Hopefully we can eventually come up with a complete list of characters and what they can do. I will be contributing as I discover more.

 

[Conn1496]

I did a little bit of testing on this. All of my testing was done using a dash as the initial momentum and a grab as the walk interrupt. I've only tested 3 characters (that haven't already been tested), but I plan to do more testing soon. Here's what I came up with.

: Possible to perform. If timed correctly, can go farther than a standard dash grab.
: Possible to perform, but goes shorter than a standard dash grab. Probably not useful.
: I tried, but I was not able to replicate it with Cloud. Probably needs further testing, but may not be possible.
Hopefully we can eventually come up with a complete list of characters and what they can do. I will be contributing as I discover more.

I can't actually seem to get Villager's to work. I'm also unsure how you could have started this from a dash, that itself interests me.

But yeah, I can confirm Rosa has one, though I could only get 1/2 character widths max, and it has pretty stritct timing, even from crawl, so it's probably not that practical. Can be done from a crawl/crouch though, and allows F-tilt, D-tilt and D-smash use, too.

Also I tried Cloud out and not even limit can stop him from basically having awful sliding distances in general. He stops too fast and his walk start-up is pathetically slow. Doesn't seem like he has a chance in hell of pulling this off. lol

Updated the OP with the info I could confirm. All in all, just glad this thread is getting a little more attention.

 

[MarioManTAW]

I can't actually seem to get Villager's to work. I'm also unsure how you could have started this from a dash, that itself interests me.

But yeah, I can confirm Rosa has one, though I could only get 1/2 character widths max, and it has pretty stritct timing, even from crawl, so it's probably not that practical. Can be done from a crawl/crouch though, and allows F-tilt, D-tilt and D-smash use, too.

Also I tried Cloud out and not even limit can stop him from basically having awful sliding distances in general. He stops too fast and his walk start-up is pathetically slow. Doesn't seem like he has a chance in hell of pulling this off. lol

Updated the OP with the info I could confirm. All in all, just glad this thread is getting a little more attention.

My inputs were like:
(tap and hold) (roll stick downward) (briefly tap forward, then immediately grab)
Honestly I wouldn't know of a better momentum starter than dash, at least for a lot of characters. What else do you think could work for Villager? Also, I'm on Wii U version playing with a Gamepad, if that makes any difference.

 

[Conn1496]

My inputs were like:
(tap and hold) (roll stick downward) (briefly tap forward, then immediately grab)
Honestly I wouldn't know of a better momentum starter than dash, at least for a lot of characters. What else do you think could work for Villager? Also, I'm on Wii U version playing with a Gamepad, if that makes any difference.

Oh, you mean a walk? -or is there a way you can actually crouch from a dash that I'm just outright missing? lol

Also, I gave villager's other potential options a shot, I don't think he has any air moves that have landing lag could work, but again, I didn't even manage to get a regular walking one down. --and while you can kinda use shield for some characters it's never yielded any meaningful or better results. I also tried the slide from his dash stop for good measure, but that didn't do much either.

It's possible I just screwed the timing, still, I don't think villager has any kind of extended slide as of now... That being said, I am on 3DS, but I have no idea why that would make a difference... Another thing I noticed is that if the distance is about the same as Villager's dash grab, it's still a pretty small slide all in all, so it might not actually be totally worth the effort in the same way I used to think Samus' was worth it until I realised it makes about as much space as just walking into a crouch regularly, so...

 

[MarioManTAW]

Oh, you mean a walk? -or is there a way you can actually crouch from a dash that I'm just outright missing? lol

Also, I gave villager's other potential options a shot, I don't think he has any air moves that have landing lag could work, but again, I didn't even manage to get a regular walking one down. --and while you can kinda use shield for some characters it's never yielded any meaningful or better results. I also tried the slide from his dash stop for good measure, but that didn't do much either.

It's possible I just screwed the timing, still, I don't think villager has any kind of extended slide as of now... That being said, I am on 3DS, but I have no idea why that would make a difference... Another thing I noticed is that if the distance is about the same as Villager's dash grab, it's still a pretty small slide all in all, so it might not actually be totally worth the effort in the same way I used to think Samus' was worth it until I realised it makes about as much space as just walking into a crouch regularly, so...

The way I input it, I don't even see the crouch animation. (It may play, but if it does, it's pretty short.) The only reason I know it's a slide is because the distance is different from a standard dash grab. I'll try to get some video when I get the chance.

Also, Villager's slide grab goes about 1.5x dash grab length if done correctly IIRC. He may not have the best slide, but it could certainly help him, especially since his grab is already pretty bad.

 

[Conn1496]

The way I input it, I don't even see the crouch animation. (It may play, but if it does, it's pretty short.) The only reason I know it's a slide is because the distance is different from a standard dash grab. I'll try to get some video when I get the chance.

Also, Villager's slide grab goes about 1.5x dash grab length if done correctly IIRC. He may not have the best slide, but it could certainly help him, especially since his grab is already pretty bad.

If you're actually performing a dash grab, then I think you're performing it wrong. To get an actual slide, you're not adding to the momentum at all, so you should be stand-grabbing. But I dunno if there's anything to say you couldn't slide a dashgrab to be fair. I was just under the impression it cancelled momentum so you wouldn't actually get the benefit of the sliding motion at all during.

Regardless, I couldn't get my methods to work for Villager, so if this is a legit thing it's probably it's own thing in itself, not this tech in particular, so I'm probably not going to add it to the OP (Which is already probably kind of inaccurate BC of my awful labbing, but still.). Still, it interests me, maybe it's a different kind of toying with the game's physics.

I just kind of want to avoid misinformation and misunderstanding on both sides. This thread was made while I was still pretty hyped by finding this out, it's not particularly clear at all, so you may be getting the wrong impression of how the tech works. -either that, or you've figured something else out that I was never aware of, which would be pretty damn cool in it's own right, but I certainly don't understand it myself right now. lol

 

[MarioManTAW]

If you're actually performing a dash grab, then I think you're performing it wrong. To get an actual slide, you're not adding to the momentum at all, so you should be stand-grabbing. But I dunno if there's anything to say you couldn't slide a dashgrab to be fair. I was just under the impression it cancelled momentum so you wouldn't actually get the benefit of the sliding motion at all during.

Regardless, I couldn't get my methods to work for Villager, so if this is a legit thing it's probably it's own thing in itself, not this tech in particular, so I'm probably not going to add it to the OP (Which is already probably kind of inaccurate BC of my awful labbing, but still.). Still, it interests me, maybe it's a different kind of toying with the game's physics.

I just kind of want to avoid misinformation and misunderstanding on both sides. This thread was made while I was still pretty hyped by finding this out, it's not particularly clear at all, so you may be getting the wrong impression of how the tech works. -either that, or you've figured something else out that I was never aware of, which would be pretty damn cool in it's own right, but I certainly don't understand it myself right now. lol

When I tried this out at first, I also tried with . With him, I used the same technique and slid about 1/2 of FD with a grab. The interesting part of this is that sometimes it would play the dash grab animation (wings out), but sometimes it wouldn't (cape form). Again, I'll try to get some video when I get the chance (I'm out of town atm).

What exactly did you use as initial momentum for ?

 

[Conn1496]

When I tried this out at first, I also tried with . With him, I used the same technique and slid about 1/2 of FD with a grab. The interesting part of this is that sometimes it would play the dash grab animation (wings out), but sometimes it wouldn't (cape form). Again, I'll try to get some video when I get the chance (I'm out of town atm).

What exactly did you use as initial momentum for ?

TBH, you shouldn't be getting dash-grab at all, but again, it could still be it's own thing. I don't know as much about it, but I might give a boosted dash-grab a go. Still, MK already has a pretty long dash-grab so it's definitely not about getting distance for MK, especially since I think it's shorter, but the frame-data on stand-grabs is generally faster. That being said. MK can also use other moves out of this tech, so it's not all about the grab.

I use MK a lot so I tried a lot of things for momentum. Walk > Crouch slide, Forward Jump > Crouch slide, his air move's land lag, I even tried some of the more obscure forward momentum > walk options like stopping a run or rewalking out of a walk-grab. Even a running shield works now and then, but OoS it's easier to just tap crouch and go from there since it's more optimised.

The most optimal slides I had was with walking or jumping into a crouch, but I had some luck when "whiffing" a walk grab too, which is obviously less useful, but still, the option is there. I was far less lucky with MK's air moves' land-lag which is kind of a shame, but I may just be bad at optimising it. lol

Still, I've semi-put it to good use in matches before. I tend to do it after hitting with an auto-cancelled short-hop D-air (crouch as you land and go from there), but walk > crouch > walk tends to work out when the opportunity arises. I tend to use D-smash more than I aught to out of this, but a fast moving down smash isn't something people particularly expect so sometimes it can catch them off guard for a quick hit to knock them offstage, which is where MK can really shine.

I remember one notable example where a player dodged a sliding D-smash but still took a really nasty hit on the backhit because of the slide. That was probably my personal highlight of this tech with MK other than generic grab improvement.

 

[MarioManTAW]

I'm doing some more testing. This time, I'm still in Training mode, but with speed reduced to 1/4. This has allowed me to first of all, figure out what exactly I was doing, and secondly, find more accurate results. What I've found so far:
My initial report was somewhat inaccurate: my initial momentum was the stopping animation off the dash, not the dash itself.
actually cannot perform the technique: what I was actually doing was dashing, stopping, then dashing again and doing a dash grab. While Villager can gain a slight amount of distance with a dash stop to walk on U-smash, D-smash, and grab, the distance appears identical to that of doing those moves from a walk.
What I did with is similar to what happened with Villager. Sometimes I was doing the technique correctly from a dash stop, but other times I was dashing, stopping, and dashing again into a dash grab.
's position of possible but not useful still stands.
With , I found that of F-tilt, U-smash, D-smash, and grab, only the U-smash does not cancel momentum. If Cloud can do it, U-smash is probably the only viable move.
It appears that can do it, but the only move I got it to work well with was throwing a held Metal Blade.
Tested with , results still inconclusive.
I'll be testing this some more and let you know what I find.

 

[Conn1496]

I'm doing some more testing. This time, I'm still in Training mode, but with speed reduced to 1/4. This has allowed me to first of all, figure out what exactly I was doing, and secondly, find more accurate results. What I've found so far:
My initial report was somewhat inaccurate: my initial momentum was the stopping animation off the dash, not the dash itself.
actually cannot perform the technique: what I was actually doing was dashing, stopping, then dashing again and doing a dash grab. While Villager can gain a slight amount of distance with a dash stop to walk on U-smash, D-smash, and grab, the distance appears identical to that of doing those moves from a walk.
What I did with is similar to what happened with Villager. Sometimes I was doing the technique correctly from a dash stop, but other times I was dashing, stopping, and dashing again into a dash grab.

Ahh, I see! Yeah, I got the exact same results you are now, which is what confused me. lol I worried you were doing it wrong - which again, must be pretty easy considering I have no visual examples. Sorry about that.

Still, I'll test/elaborate on the rest to see if they match up with my findings.

's position of possible but not useful still stands.

I don't know about having no use, but I personally definitely couldn't use it. The slide distance is too short, and the moves avaliable aren't exactly super-useful. I added Rosa to the OP and basically just outright stated that a better Rosa player might just be able to optimise it, but I sure as can't. lol

With , I found that of F-tilt, U-smash, D-smash, and grab, only the U-smash does not cancel momentum. If Cloud can do it, U-smash is probably the only viable move.

I've done quite a lot of testing with Cloud and it just seems like nothing works. That being said, even if it did, U-Smash can be JC'd for basically the same effect, so nothing is really lost here, ultimately.

It appears that can do it, but the only move I got it to work well with was throwing a held Metal Blade.

Mega Man is weird because I have no idea if some moves are sliding or not. He can certainly do it though, his grab is good for it and D-smash works fine. I'm more wondering about U-tilt/D-tilt. Funnily enough, side-B works too, but that gives 0 benefit at all. lol (Also, Metal Blade can be glide tossed, so using it with this tech is basically moot.).

Tested with , results still inconclusive.

I tested with Mario and he has one, it's just absolute garbage. Not at all worth the effort. His walk is too slow to start, and he just slides enough already that it makes the tech mostly useless. I managed about 1 character width's worth of distance extra with an extended slide and it took me the longest time to pull off.

If the literal sliver of a distance is worth it to you though, Grab, D-tilt, D-smash and U-tilt all work. It's just literally so bad or unoptimised right now, that I'm not even adding Mario to the OP. lol

I'll be testing this some more and let you know what I find.

Regardless, thanks for your interest. Any kind of labbing help with this would be appreciated!

 

[MarioManTAW]

I did some more testing, focusing primarily on characters with crawls. Note that none of these are characters I play regularly, and thus probably not fully optimized.

might be able to do it with a grab from a crawl, but with minimal slide. F-tilt will not work, I'm not sure about U-smash and D-smash.
is a lot like Bowser: might be possible, but with minimal slide. I can confirm that neither F-tilt nor any of his smashes will work, you'll probably have to use a grab.
appears to be able to do it with grab, Fireball or D-smash from a crawl. U-smash is a unique case: it seems to cancel momentum during the middle. F-tilt will not work.
seems to be unable to do it. I don't think any of his Monado Arts helped with this either.
seems to be able to do it with grab from crawl. Chomp seems to slide while stopping a dash, but since that doesn't require a walk, it's probably a different tech.
seems to be able to do it with grab and jab from a crawl. U-smash might work too. D-smash and F-tilt both cancel momentum.

 

[Conn1496]

I did some more testing, focusing primarily on characters with crawls. Note that none of these are characters I play regularly, and thus probably not fully optimized.

might be able to do it with a grab from a crawl, but with minimal slide. F-tilt will not work, I'm not sure about U-smash and D-smash.
is a lot like Bowser: might be possible, but with minimal slide. I can confirm that neither F-tilt nor any of his smashes will work, you'll probably have to use a grab.
appears to be able to do it with grab, Fireball or D-smash from a crawl. U-smash is a unique case: it seems to cancel momentum during the middle. F-tilt will not work.
seems to be unable to do it. I don't think any of his Monado Arts helped with this either.
seems to be able to do it with grab from crawl. Chomp seems to slide while stopping a dash, but since that doesn't require a walk, it's probably a different tech.
seems to be able to do it with grab and jab from a crawl. U-smash might work too. D-smash and F-tilt both cancel momentum.

I tested all of these and Luigi seems to be the only one who's correct (his is pretty bad though) - which already got confirmed. Didn't think of fireball though so added that to the OP.

Bowser and 'Dorf both walk and move way too slow for this to work at all. I even humoured the game and tested with equipment and still nothing.

Wario, WFT and Shulk (in any Monado art) all seem to have the wrong physics to perform this tech, or their walks start too slow. The closest WFT got was a slight barely character width distance when optimised from a crawl, but otherwise it was literally better to just walk into a grab.

I tried literally all the options I could think of for all of these characters and barely got a slide out of any.

 

[Wnyke]

I didn't knew this was a thing, I've been doing this for a long time... mostly with lucina since the butter feet properties work with this too...

basically it extends d-tilt and jab range and allows you to have a little more control of the movement in a less complex way, the other one is perfect pivot...

also robin nosferatu range get increased while sliding (but this can be done while dashing), and momentum can get carried with b-reverse... that is all I use it for, maybe a d-tilt, I don't know...

 

[Conn1496]

I didn't knew this was a thing, I've been doing this for a long time... mostly with lucina since the butter feet properties work with this too...

basically it extends d-tilt and jab range and allows you to have a little more control of the movement in a less complex way, the other one is perfect pivot...

also robin nosferatu range get increased while sliding (but this can be done while dashing), and momentum can get carried with b-reverse... that is all I use it for, maybe a d-tilt, I don't know...

As far as I know, Lucina and Robin don't have extended slides, they just straight up slide a lot. lol

Robin ultimately walks too slow, but I'm really not sure what makes Marth/Lucina unable to do this since they get pretty good distance by just walking. I theorise it's just traction during other actions or a slow initial walking speed.

What I'm describing in this thread is a way to extend that slide distance by abusing certain physics. I can't find a correlation in what those physics are unfortunately, but since a lot of characters are able to do it to varying degrees of success, I'm assuming there definitely are conditions that are optimal for it. If I was a little better with the data side of Smash, I'd give this a serious looking into, but all I have is practical testing for now (AKA: Just trying stuff myself to see if it works.). lol

 

[Sail Hatan Gaming]

My Smash Corner did a video on this tech a few minutes ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvRsb_2yE5Y

 

[Conn1496]

My Smash Corner did a video on this tech a few minutes ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvRsb_2yE5Y

About time someone bothered with it. I've been trying to push some awareness about this since I found it out myself, and I doubt I was the first to figure this out by a long shot. lol

Of course, they do a much better job explaining it than I do/have, it just makes me wonder who the first person to figure this out was and why it took so long for anyone to even bother with a video on it. It seems like this tech is the exact kind of thing a lot of higher players could get a good deal out of TBH...

[Edit]: The only thing I would say now I finish watching the video is that I wish they'd bother going into character specifics etc. But I'll take it if the info is getting out there. lol

 

[MarioManTAW]

He said that everyone can do it. I hadn't tried the method he used...

 

[Conn1496]

He said that everyone can do it. I hadn't tried the method he used...

It's one of the few things I'm really unsure of with the video. Maybe the initial Step > Neutral > Step method works for all characters, but stick by my point that certain characters outright can't do it until I've had proof.

The thing I'm also noticing with the video is that there's no footage of certain characters pulling it off at all, and while I'm not doubting some characters can do it, part of me is also cynical to the idea that if they can, a lot of the labbing I've done predicts that the movement would be minor and overall useless for them (If a Step Dash only gets you 1 character length at optimal distance, then there's basically no point in using it over a regular walk/run.).

I'm not going to say there's not a couple of things that rubbed me the wrong way in the video, but I'm overall just glad the info is out there. I want to see this explored and put to work - that's all I've been hoping for since I started this thread in early February. lol Anything that brings new elements into the meta is a huge win to me. I'm just more than a little irked I was one of the few people I've even seen exploring this phenomenon in detail before MSC's video on it, especially when I consider myself 1) a bad labber 2) a casual.

Anyway, my minor issues with the video:

The first is that there's no specific character examples outside MK and Bayo - this irritates me for obvious reasons, I'd be happy to be proved wrong about characters not being able to do it, but having no visuals for those really threw me off (Especially when I'm pretty sure he didn't even optimise the distance of the two examples he showed - Link and Falco.). A seperate video could easily fix this, but to focus so heavily on MK and Bayo for the video seemed kind of excessive if all characters could.

The second is that he claims you can do it out of a turnaround, but he's basically just using the first step out of turnaround like he uses an initial step with the optimal input, so it feels moot to point out that you can do the tech in that scenario since they're unrelated movements. The turnaround is basically completely seperate from the Step Dash in that scenario. By the same logic, it can be done while landing or getting up from the ledge (Which while it can, they're just separate actions. You step dash after turnaround/landing/get-up, etc. not as part of the action.).

MSC did a great job pushing the info and explaining it in way better detail than I or anyone else looking into this before me ever could (I'm not gonna go pretending I was the first to figure anything about this out. I'm not that full of myself, but if I figured it out myself before MSC and I'm honestly really bad at Smash, I'm sure someone else before me did too, but just didn't share the info for whatever reason.), but I'm not gonna sit and pretend I'm not salty or irritated about certain things, for definite. lol

 

[Crystanium]

I think I've been doing this, but only when goofing off. I just would rotate my analog stick, though.

 

[Conn1496]

I think I've been doing this, but only when goofing off. I just would rotate my analog stick, though.

TBH I started by doing it on accident too. Funnily enough I first noticed it while playing Samus, as well. Samus' is kind of an anomaly in that her crouch can count as the starting forward momentum for some reason? Like not even when walking into a crouch. *shrug* Smash physics are weird.

 

[Crystanium]

TBH I started by doing it on accident too. Funnily enough I first noticed it while playing Samus, as well. Samus' is kind of an anomaly in that her crouch can count as the starting forward momentum for some reason? Like not even when walking into a crouch. *shrug* Smash physics are weird.

If I knew it would have any useful application, I might have bothered with it. I'll give it a try when I return home.

 

[Conn1496]

If I knew it would have any useful application, I might have bothered with it. I'll give it a try when I return home.

Samus has a couple of options from it, but nothing particularly massive as far as I know. Mostly just good for extending grab range and D-smashing as far as I know.

Regardless I obviously approve of anyone trying to lab this in any way or improve on it. lol

 

[Jiom]

Lol wow didn't expect MSC to make a video on this but glad it got the attention it deserved. Seeing two perspectives on it is really nice. I guess everyone's initial reaction to it is.. "oh wow I wonder how long has this been known for"

As far as I know this is the first mentioning of it I've seen though.

Oh and also in MSC's video, he mentions you can do it out of a turnaround. Is it pretty much a moot point or is it different in some way? I'm sure it acts pretty much the same way as doing it out of walk or out of anything else.(maybe different timing)

 

[Conn1496]

Lol wow didn't expect MSC to make a video on this but glad it got the attention it deserved. Seeing two perspectives on it is really nice. I guess everyone's initial reaction to it is.. "oh wow I wonder how long has this been known for"

As far as I know this is the first mentioning of it I've seen though.

Yeah, I'd not seen anyone else bring it up before this thread, but I'm gonna go on a limb and assume someone knew about it before me. I'm not exactly great at labbing or messing around with techs and stuff, so I'm gonna imagine someone better than me figured it out before and just didn't share the info for whatever reason. (I basically refuse to believe a scrub like me would be the first to figure this out. Seriously. lol)

I am glad there's a video out there though, I really hope that I see it put to use! (Plus I have proof I'm a tech hipster now even though I'm a dirty casual. Muhahahahahaha!)

Oh and also in MSC's video, he mentions you can do it out of a turnaround. Is it pretty much a moot point or is it different in some way? I'm sure it acts pretty much the same way as doing it out of walk or out of anything else.(maybe different timing)

It's basically a moot point as far as I know since you just basically wait for the turnaround to finish before you start the tech and MSC blatantly points that out himself in the video. The turnaround itself doesn't count towards the tech at all since you still need a source of forward momentum before you start, hence why the action is "Turnaround > Step > Neutral > Walk" and not "Turnaround > Walk". The step/neutral input is basically mandatory and the turnaround feels just slapped on - I think his point was just to prove that turnaround doesn't interrupt the tech(?) but it still feels moot to me.

If you take that into consideration that the tech's optimal input in terms of frames to execute is "Walk > Neutral > Walk" (I didn't know this would work, and I still can't get it to work, so I still just stick to other momentum starts most of the time BC I'm a scrub. lol) there's no reason to point out it's possible to do from a turnaround if the turnaround is literally just slapped onto the front.

It's like saying you can do it "from Jab", the input would be "Jab > Walk" if you could, but it's "Jab > Step > Neutral > Walk" to do it from jab. The jab being the first thing you did is completely inconsequential, similar to the turnaround example.

As an alternate example, things like running shield are "Run > Shield > Walk", whereas if it wasn't possible from running shield it would be "Run > Shield > Step > Neutral > Walk" but you don't need the "Step > Neutral" because you already have a start, the running shield.

Forward moving land lag is also another example since the action is "Air > Landlag > Walk" not "Air > Landlag > Step > Neutral > Walk". Again, the step/neutral is moot because the landlag counts as a start in it's place. In the turnaround example, the turnaround is moot.

The thing I would point out though is that different starts and timings will get you different results and I don't know how much it's actually affected by which start option you use. I'd also argue that the "Walk > Neutral > Walk" input is the hardest, and while it looks basically optimal in every way if you can do it, newer players should stick to other momentum options like Run/Shield, Walk/Crouch or Landlag just to make the tech easier to apply at first until they get a hang of making uses for it.

Things like Walk > Grab even work as starts for this tech (Which I think he showed.), but obviously you don't just throw out a walking grab just so you can standgrab again while sliding, especially when it's a slower start-up option for this tech than basically anything else.

I hope my explanation helps with why I think the turnaround Step Dash MSC covered is moot. I think he ultimately could have just as easily explained that any forward momentum that can lead to walk can work for this tech, too (Which seems wholly like the case. Hence why Step/Neutral works in the first place, because the step makes the neutral give a little momentum in the form of a slide, so the next step can be turned into a Step Dash.), but instead he covered his bases and showed a few examples like landlag and skid, which is at least admirable since a lot of players won't know what "Forward Momentum" covers and doesn't, or would miss options like land lag being counted as forwards momentum, etc.

(I'm also not fond on the name Step Dash since I'll always see it as a slide, but I understand where it comes from at least. lol)