The new bonus episode of the Smash Brothers Documentary Metagame, Godslayer, is now available on Vimeo
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
These two sentences seem redundant because they're expressing the same thing in different phrases. Like I said about the word "community", I also included "fanbase". What do you mean by "fanbase"? Grouping everyone together isn't a fair judgment when there are those who aren't obnoxious, threatening, or hostile.Just because the FGC can be ****ty doesn’t mean the Smash fanbase isn’t. Just because the FGC can be ****ty doesn’t mean the Smash fanbase doesn’t have crap to clean up.
I think it's bayo's power and what fighting/watching her entails.Bayonetta, based on the discussion we've had here, appears to be PART OF the problem. Nobody here has seriously put forth any claim that Bayonetta is so broken as to be on par with Super Turbo Akuma or MMPR Ivan Ooze or so on, so I'm presuming it's not just a matter of raw character power; something else is afoot here.
She's a scapegoat, all complaints got concentrated into her and since most Bayo players had a sassy personality from even before the drama started, decided to embrace it and then everything snowballed from there.Why is Bayonetta the only one that, from what I've seen (and this is where I possibly haven't been looking hard enough), elicits actual boos and reactions from the crowd? Maybe people do think she's busted relative to the rest of the cast, or maybe her players had something to do with it.
While true, it`s not fair to place the complete blame on that. Most of it is on the community for not being smart and for not looking ahead. Melee has thrived with its few characters and quite dominant ones... yeah, mind you, Fox aint nowhere as oppresive, boring-to-watch and suffocating as Bayo can be, but they have managed to control damage pretty well again and again every time a character or a tech became oppresive or annoying to deal with.I think Smash 4 at EVO 2018 should serve as a good reminder of what can happen when a fighting game stops getting updates at the worst possible time. Sakurai and the team moving on to Ultimate and the Wii U on death's door meant Bayo wasn't able to get nerfed properly until the next game. It's a simillar problem UMvC3 had at the end of its life, where the Meta was dominated by Virgil and Capcom couldn't nerf him because they lost the Marvel license.
I think presuming there won't be any serious balance flaws and that Ultimate won't repeat this is well-intended but naive.
Sakurai can't possibly catch every balance issue out of the gate. There are times where he's legit unaware of a problem and it takes a LOT of effort to bring it to his attention since he's very busy and isn't focusing on tournament-level play as his primary interest anyway (his stance has generally been "don't forget the beginner" or words to that effect).
Even if he did, once we discover who's top tier, that character will receive bandwagon-hate. It is the nature of crowds to do this.
So I don't think it's a good idea to presume the problem will go away.
Instead... 'ThatGuyWhoKnowsNothing' is actually on to something. And part of the solution is simply trying! Get the message out at all. Raise the topic. Get TOs to talk about it, get top players to talk about it, get Smashboards authors to write about it (that last part won't reach as many viewers as the first two, but it'll help all the same). The message has to be "We cannot harass our players like this, and we need to decide on consistent standards for when to ban a character or tell the audience to Git Gud and show them how to develop the mindset of developing counters to popular characters."
Just having the discussion is going to help. The crowd needs to get their expectations calibrated, rulesmakers need to figure out whether lines need to be drawn, and top players need to be able to support one another when incidents like this occur. So long as any one group feels isolated and vulnerable, this won't work. So everyone (or at least large swathes of each demographic) need to feel like their concerns are understood and that what they expect of the other groups is realistic.
With that out of the way, let's explore another question: What does this solution I speak of actually look like? Well, it's a lot of things... but they're all facets of the same basic idea: Communicate.
The community needs to talk with each other about some things, such as...
How do you feel about large, sponsored venues? If companies and tournament organizers are going to shell out money to help you organize majors, do you have any obligations to them if you attend their events? If so, what are those obligations? Do you actually want these large companies and venues, along with their accompanying standards, involved? The trend so far says 'yes', and I'm pretty sure the community actually does... but they need to figure this out for certain and learn how to work with these entities.
What makes a character banworthy? Where is the line drawn, how soon do you determine it, and how do you enforce it? This has come up a few times over the years. Brawl Meta Knight is the obvious example, but now we have Bayonetta showing a more polarizing incident. The Mii Fighters are a lesser example of this kind of thing, but they're far less so since they haven't caused any major incidents like what happened last night at Evo.
The community needs to be introduced to this narrative. Whatever you guys decide about character bans, you've got to get your rank and file onboard with this. Fortunately, this is more time-consuming than actually difficult. You just have to talk about it. Bring it up with Tournament Organizers. Have them speak out about it. Have top players speak about it too. The common player and spectator won't think about it terribly much until you introduce it to their thought process by actually mentioning it. TOs, opinion leaders, and top players have an incredible ability to frame and guide the narrative this way. Use it for good purposes.
TOs need to make clear that harassing players is unacceptable, and enforce it. Talk about it on your social media pages. Make an example or two by tossing someone out for violating the rule. People will catch on quickly.
Top players and opinion leaders can help by showing where they draw the line on a character. In the Street Fighter community, our metrics for bans are Super Turbo Akuma and 3rd Strike Gill; they do things that other characters simply cannot mount a coherent response to, and we are careful to explain why they're a problem. ST Akuma and 3S Gill are our lines in the sand, and we're very clear to our fellow players that anyone falling short of their standard of 'overpowered' will generally be allowed to run as-is and you had better develop some counter-plays to them because while it's possible the devs will nerf them in a patch you cannot count on it.
Talk about it on your streams. You have tons of players tuning in to watch you play, so you have an audience. Have this conversation with them during the matchmaking queue, during breaks, things like that. Encourage them to step up and suggest ideas on how to deal with various parts of a character's kit. Is there something you can do about X or Y move that Bayonetta (or any character in controversy) has? Get them working on discussing how to defeat it rather than complain about it. It promotes viewer participation (which is good for you!) and changes the narrative from what we saw last night... to trying to deal with the problem directly.
Who knows, maybe the character really is too good and deserves a ban... but right now, what's needed is a shift in narrative and mentality rather than banning a specific character. Without this shift, you're going to wind up at this same problem again in 4 months when Smash Ultimate comes out.
So please, go forth and communicate. Express things. Explain things. Introduce new points to the conversation, shift it to go where you want it to go. It will take time, but it can be done and will be worth it.
Just saw Omni's video, interesting stuff; thank you for mentiong it Red Ryu.
Something actually came to mind afterward... for all the complaints about Bayonetta, I have to wonder: Did anyone bother speaking to Nintendo directly about it? If that many people seriously believed she was that overpowered and anti-fun, where was the letter writing campaign? I'm sure people snarked about it on here and on Twitter and so on, but did anyone put their thoughts down on paper, stamp it, and send it in to NOA?
I imagine if they got enough letters about it, they might have said "Hold on, let's look into this". It might sound quaint to talk about physical letters in 2018, but it can and has gotten results; think back to the 'mailing in cupcakes to change the Mass Effect 3 ending' thing.
Whether getting Bayonetta nerfed by a similar campaign is a good idea is of course open to debate (several players have suggested her win-rate isn't THAT high to justify this)... but if people really felt that way, I have to think that talking to Nintendo instead of yelling at Bayo players would have gotten better results in the era of the balance patch.
Because of Brawl MK and now Smash 4 Bayo (who while the best in the game isn't banworthy IMO) in these last moments of Smash 4 and going forward our community needs to clearly define when a character is to be banned through concrete data such as saturation (how popular the character is at top/high level play), tournament success, and community satisfaction.
Regarding polling, I think what needs to be done is to have events do polling by handing everyone a form to fill out at the front door of a venue rather than have 2GG do random twitter polls to gauge the community's interest. Who knows how many people see them if they are lucky to see someone share it.I think @Das Koopa had the right idea when doing his Bayo research with comparing her trajectory to MK's in Brawl. Most would agree that the discussion to ban MK was too late but perhaps data thresholds that are monitored can provide warning signs to when a character is approaching and has reached banworthy levels. Also periodic community wide polling to gauge satisfaction with a strong character(s) may prove to be helpful in capturing the audience's views of a character. It would take an entire community to agree on how long we monitor a character's trajectory and how much success a character has in the meta before discussions of banning are to be had. If the community can come to an agreement about these things and monitor the characters alongside community approval then at least we can have protocols as to what to do in the emergence of a polarizing yet formidable character.
I think MK is the only character in Smash history that warranted a ban but by the time most agreed it was a problem it was too late and that helped fracture Brawl's long term competitive popularity. Compared to MK, Bayo's problem is moreso spectator-oriented but it has reached peak levels of controversy and now is the time to have these conversations otherwise Ultimate may share the same poisoning of the well.
dont mind me just freely thinking here.
We have one but judging by the few discord servers I visit they are not taken seriously. I only see the 4BR brought up when they release a tier list which just sends all the servers into arguements or memes. If you want to cause chaos, post a tier list/matchup chart anywhere and watch the magic.Don't you guys already have that? Your 'Back Room' council?
I think it's bayo's power and what fighting/watching her entails.
Sm4sh has had its share of characters that were clearly at the top for some time, and it still has a bunch of infuriating things. Hoo hah Diddy, release version Sheik, Rosalina still being able to kill you at stupid %s with rage, you name it. The game is full of stupid things.
Why is Bayonetta the only one that, from what I've seen (and this is where I possibly haven't been looking hard enough), elicits actual boos and reactions from the crowd? Maybe people do think she's busted relative to the rest of the cast, or maybe her players had something to do with it.
Edit: Because I forgot to talk about it, "fixing" this issue is pretty hard.
Obviously, death threats aren't ok and shouldn't be tolerated in any form. However, I don't think general booing is a clear cut issue. Where the line is drawn for "harassment" will dictate that discussion. Otherwise, unless the TO/event organizer makes a ruling against it, it's fair game.
I see the "you don't have to watch" response come up a lot too. That's the option a good bit of people took in the sm4sh GFs, and it still makes the game look terrible.
I meant hurt in a very broad term. It’s just less exposure for the game and more exposure helps them get third party characters. And loosing EVO doesn’t help expand the competitive scene and I would love to see smash grow as large as League of Legends or COD (in its glory days). Smash is a game I grew up with since the 64 and I don’t want to see players act like this and I don’t want to see the game like this. I want players who not only respect each other but respect the crowd, sponsors, and viewers alike.The only thing not having Evo will "hurt us" in is that Mr Wizard and co will lose money, while we lose out on publicity. The fgc has shown for years that they don't want us and vice versa. It's meh to me.
As for that Reddit post, after you guys read the post, check out the first comment and scroll down until you see Vayseth's response. If what that guy said is true then we really have a lot of work to do. I do remember the Hyuga situation. Now I wish they never came up with a central "council" anyway.
As for the PGR, some see it as good, I don't. It is heavily skewered towards US events and the ranking for events is based on PGR players who reside in the US (almost all of them), so large tournies in Europe, Japan, and other countries don't get attention unless a US player flies out there. If that region wants more attention, they just have to beat the US player, then eyes will be on them for awhile, until they say that because X player does not travel to the US they are not relevant or their character's meta has stopped progressing all because the player is unable to attend tournies that you frequently watch instead of paying attention to their scenes.
If it's Japan then it's one of two things.
1. They are Japanese so they are better by default. No, they just put in more effort.
2. Japan does not have prize pools so they are full of low tier heroes and play all the weird/underdeveloped characters that the US quickly wrote off as bad or that their competition isn't as serious as ours. No, money or no money, players can still "play to win". Having something to lose on the line physically can motivate players to give it their all. Even with that they may not win so in the end it doesn't matter? I think money + the "play to win" attitude is why players gravitate towards "strong, but not hard" (execution-wise) characters in hordes so they can have the best chances of winning instead of playing who they like or only listening to others opinions without doing research themselves.
Players get on the PGR based on the players they take down instead of their actual skill.
(I thought someone mentioned PGR in a previous page, if not then my bad)
indeed. in Many fighting game circles if a TO caught something like that they shut that **** down immediately, as seen in this GF moment @ 1:19:00(heavy language here). To see it allowed at the biggest Fighting Game Event there is seems an immense loss of face.Just learned about this, and words cannot describe how much of a travesty and embarrassment this turned out to be. The whole course of events reeked of completely unprofessional behavior from both the audience but especially the players. I don't care if you're salty over the audience misbehaving, you're there to play a game at a tournament, so play the damn game. Don't stall and flip the bird, which only serves to rile them up and make it that much worse. Be professional and courteous, and most of all graceful in victory and in defeat. Don't go on Twitter and ****post. And I'm honestly shocked they weren't disqualified and pulled from the stage immediately when the staff realized their shenanigans. People have lost their jobs for less.
The Smash community needs to wake up and realize this kind of conduct is unacceptable.
Regarding the Bayonetta debate, all I'll say is that if a character is causing the amount of grief there needs to be a serious discussion on whether that is reason to ban that character.