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EVO 2015: Melee or Smash 4?

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aethermaster

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Having experience, any game will have its few top characters that you see a lot. There is no game aside from maybe UMVC3 where the majority of the cast gets chosen. At best, you'll see seven characters (if the metagame gets lucky). It's incredibly unlikely that the whole cast will be equally balanced. Already, we see bias going in favor towards characters like Little Mac, DHD, Sheik, and occasionally ZSS and Bowser.

My point is, don't get your hopes up, and I wouldn't necessarily use that logic when the time comes around. You do have a point though.
Yeah I didn't think of that, thats completely true. However, I think with custom moves being a thing now isn't it possible that we would see at least a wider variety of characters rather than Fox and Fox's semi-clone? It just felt more like in Melee that there was a huge gap between those seven or eight characters and the rest of the cast where as this game you might get away with using a lower tier character against a higher tier if the player plays his/her cards right. I dunno, maybe I'm just speaking out of my place but I feel like if customs are permanently legal it could widen the playing field for a larger amount of characters.
 
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zozo

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Yeah I didn't think of that, thats completely true. However, I think with custom moves being a thing now isn't it possible that we would see at least a wider variety of characters rather than Fox and Fox's semi-clone? It just felt more like in Melee that there was a huge gap between those seven or eight characters and the rest of the cast where as this game you might get away with using a lower tier character against a higher tier if the player plays his/her cards right. I dunno, maybe I'm just speaking out of my place but I feel like if customs are permanently legal it could widen the playing field for a larger amount of characters.
You're exactly right, there is a HUGE gap between the top tiers and the rest of the cast in Melee, which is why you constantly see the same characters in top 8s, because that's literally the only way to win. Pick top tier or die. Clearly a heavily unbalanced game. Reminds me of UMVC3, or 3rd Strike, which had a ton of Yuns, Kens, and Chuns.
 

TunaAndBacon

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At the end of the day nobody but the TO's can decide, though I believe that it should be Melee just because it has the most room for a competitive scene, in may just as easily end up being Sm4sh because its new and Nintendo seems to be behind EVO now.

But New =/= Better, just look at how Brawl turned out.
 

MTL Kyle

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Actually that's incorrect. In high level UMVC3 you see different combinations of the same teams all the time in top 8s. Vergil, Doom, Magneto, Morrigan, Wolverine, Strider, Viper, Zero, Dante. Usually different combos of those teams. Occasionally you might see a player with a lower tier team, but it's rare. The majority of the cast is definitely not used. I know, I play the game. USF4 has much more character variety in high level play, because almost every character in that game is viable, which is nod to good balance. Melee is not balanced, which is why there's nothing but Foxes, Falcos, and Falcons on stream. I literally watched a doubles match the other day that had 3 foxes on the screen, and one Luigi. Melee is heavily unbalanced.

1. EG|Justin Wong (Wolverine, Storm, Akuma)
2. GG|NYChrisG (Morrigan, Dr. Doom, Vergil | Others)
3. RG|Filipino Champ (Magneto, Dormammu, Dr. Doom | Others)
4. CTRL|RayRay (Magneto, Dr. Doom, Sentinel)
5. RG|Flocker (Zero, Vergil, Hawkeye | Others)
5. Jan (Hulk, Shuma-Gorath, Haggar | Others)
7. MRN|Marn (Zero, Vergil, Strider)
7. BIFU|Insaynne (Nova, Spencer, Dr. Doom)

Wolverine isn't even that used, Dr. Strange is way more used than him.

Again, don't talk about something you don't understand about. There is no magical formula for UMvC at the top level. People like Nemo and ApologyMan decide to not play with those top tiers and are still high threat (specially Nemo) because the game is much more about understand the dynamics than tier whoring.

Melee is not balanced, which is why there's nothing but Foxes, Falcos, and Falcons on stream. I literally watched a doubles match the other day that had 3 foxes on the screen, and one Luigi. Melee is heavily unbalanced.
Yeah, Melee is not balanced, this is why the game is good. Hyper balanced games are tasteless
There are a lot of characters being played at Melee, you are just a Meleephobic Brawl activist who has a smash lover facade. STOP. It's not healthy.

I rather watch 4 Foxes than 4 Meta Knights in doubles.

@ TunaAndBacon TunaAndBacon 3rd Strike is a side tournament at EVO. Melee should be a side tournament as well.
Why it should be a side event ? Because it's old ?
I've never seen a side event get 1k people to a tournament. lol
 

ShadyWolfe

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Smash 4 of course it is the new Smash game and Nintendo would sponsor it. With it being a new game there will be plenty of hype and new blood to go around and the game certainly is fun to watch for the most part and it certainly would be different than Melee but I do hope that Melee would be a side tournament because the community is still strong, is fun to watch, and if there can be two Street Fighters in EVO why not two Smash Bros
 

zozo

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You named 17 different characters. UMVC3 has 50 I believe. That's less that half the cast, and most of them are repeats. My point still stands.


Yeah, Melee is not balanced, this is why the game is good. Hyper balanced games are tasteless
This is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Heavily unbalanced games are bland and boring to watch. No character variety. Tons of mirror matches. Tasteless. More balanced games have more character variety and never get stale to watch. Games like KOF13, USF4, TTT2, etc. There's a reason why USF4 is the most popular fighter in the world.

There are a lot of characters being played at Melee, you are just a Meleephobic Brawl activist who has a smash lover facade. STOP. It's not healthy.
Wtf does that even mean? That sentence doesn't even make sense. Funny thing is, I don't even play Brawl. I play Melee, and Project M LOL

Oh, and Melee should be a side tournament because it's ancient, and there's a new game on the horizon ripe for exploring. It needs to join Third Strike and ST in retirement, and take it's closeminded players with it.
 
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KayB

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Yeah I didn't think of that, thats completely true. However, I think with custom moves being a thing now isn't it possible that we would see at least a wider variety of characters rather than Fox and Fox's semi-clone? It just felt more like in Melee that there was a huge gap between those seven or eight characters and the rest of the cast where as this game you might get away with using a lower tier character against a higher tier if the player plays his/her cards right. I dunno, maybe I'm just speaking out of my place but I feel like if customs are permanently legal it could widen the playing field for a larger amount of characters.
I don't think we've even established that customs moves will be a thing at this point. I really hope it does though, it'd add for some really interesting game play, but nothing's confirmed.

I mean I just don't want this conversation going down so many "if"s. Like its a lot of "IF this game works better than Brawl", "IF the game will have a larger pool of high tiered characters", "IF a good, established rule set will be made by then," I dunno.

You're exactly right, there is a HUGE gap between the top tiers and the rest of the cast in Melee, which is why you constantly see the same characters in top 8s, because that's literally the only way to win. Pick top tier or die. Clearly a heavily unbalanced game. Reminds me of UMVC3, or 3rd Strike, which had a ton of Yuns, Kens, and Chuns.
That applies to pretty much any game where you have to choose between any number of characters ever.

And let's be honest, 8 characters is still pretty gracious as far as competitive fighting games go, and it's not like Samus, Pikachu, Dr. Mario, Ganon, and Luigi are completely non-existent in competitive play.

This is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Heavily unbalanced games are bland and boring to watch. No character variety. Tons of mirror matches. Tasteless. More balanced games have more character variety are never get stale to watch. Games like KOF13, USF4, TTT2, etc. There's a reason why USF4 is the most popular fighter in the world.
That's completely full of **** and you know it. The most popular fighting games in the world among the competitive scene have always been slightly to absolutely ****ing insanely unbalanced (ex, MvC2, Third Strike, several iterations of SF4, MVC3, so on and so forth).

The reason why USF4 is popular is not primarily because of character variety, it's the gameplay itself that adds to the depth of competitive play. Does character variety help? Yes it certainly does, but that doesn't redefine why USF4 is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Ask any professional, they won't just use character variety to explain why the game tiself is good. It'll be a subpoint at best. If the number of viable characters equaled the popularity of the game, than KOFXIII would be the next gospel of gaming.

The lack of character variety can get boring, but let's be honest; when top tier characters fight, there's still a huge amount of skill, decision making, and overall strategy involved. If character variety, especially in game where variety exceeds through 8 different characters, you clearly have little appreciation of how the game actually plays.

I'm not arguing that character variety doesn't matter, but saying that it's not the important aspect of a fighting game is true, and it certainly shouldn't be called "the dumbest thing I've ever heard."
 
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zozo

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That applies to pretty much any game where you have to choose between any number of characters ever.

And let's be honest, 8 characters is still pretty gracious as far as competitive fighting games go, and it's not like Samus, Pikachu, Dr. Mario, Ganon, and Luigi are completely non-existent in competitive play.
Have you ever watched a Guilty Gear tournament? Persona? USF4 for that matter? Tekken? Soul Caliber? Virtua Fighter? KOF? Skullgirls? Mortal Kombat? Street Fighter x Tekken? Injustice? Plenty of character variety in those games.
 

KayB

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Have you ever watched a Guilty Gear tournament? Persona? USF4 for that matter? Tekken? Soul Caliber? Virtua Fighter? KOF? Skullgirls? Mortal Kombat? Street Fighter x Tekken? Injustice? Plenty of character variety in those games.
I'll admit that I've never watched Guilty Gear, Tekken, or Virtua Fighter, and I rarely watch Skullgirls either, so I can't speak on behalf of those games. I do know that Persona has a drastically smaller cast and Mortal Kombat should never be used as an example for character variety. That game is pretty broken in a lot of ways. SFxT was pretty unbalanced for a certain period of time too (before I stopped watching it), and Injustice's balance isn't actually that far off from Melee. USF4 shouldn't even be used as an example, especially if you're referencing EVO since USF4 is still being tinkered with. Even with "heavily balanced games," you still see the better characters getting the edge over others (ex. Shen and Mr. Karate in KOFXIII).

My point is; does character variety mean everything to you? In my experience, those who really watch competitive play still enjoy watching the top tiers whether its street fighter or marvel, because they can appreciate the skill that each of these top players have, much like how I can appreciate the amazing reads that Armada has on spacies to the insane Akuma play by Infiltration.
 
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TunaAndBacon

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You named 17 different characters. UMVC3 has 50 I believe. That's less that half the cast, and most of them are repeats. My point still stands.




This is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Heavily unbalanced games are bland and boring to watch. No character variety. Tons of mirror matches. Tasteless. More balanced games have more character variety and never get stale to watch. Games like KOF13, USF4, TTT2, etc. There's a reason why USF4 is the most popular fighter in the world.



Wtf does that even mean? That sentence doesn't even make sense. Funny thing is, I don't even play Brawl. I play Melee, and Project M LOL

Oh, and Melee should be a side tournament because it's ancient, and there's a new game on the horizon ripe for exploring. It needs to join Third Strike and ST in retirement, and take it's closeminded players with it.
Age doesn't mean anything to a game though, if the people still want to play Melee then they are going to play Melee. Right now Melee's following is too large to be a side tournament, and 1000 entrants aren't going to go anywhere simply in a year. Its not like Third Strike where there is still only a couple of die hard fans playing because 1000 is A LOT of people still into Melee.

And that doesn't mean that I'm saying to not give Sm4sh a chance in the EVO lineup, but I believe that both can stand side by side until one of the two eventually loses its large fan base.

 

zozo

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My point is; does character variety mean everything to you? In my experience, those who really watch competitive play still enjoy watching the top tiers whether its street fighter or marvel, because they can appreciate the skill that each of these top players have, much like how I can appreciate the amazing reads that Armada has on spacies to the insane Akuma play by Infiltration.
I will admit, although MVC2 is broke as ****, I still love watching the MVC2 gods (Yipes, Sanford, Justin, etc) play that game. Even though it's like the same 7 characters, the way those guys play that is like watching art unfold. It's just....beautiful. Yipes and Sanford are having an FT100 set right now as we speak on twitch. It's been glorious. So yeah, I understand why people love Melee so much. And I can appreciate watching masterful play in a very hard to master game. This is why I play Melee and why I don't want it gone forever. But just because I love MVC2 doesn't mean I wanna see it as the main game still, because UMVC3 exists, and it's where all the players are at, and it's brought tons of new blood to the scene, like Smash 4 will do and is currently doing for the Smash scene. That's why I'd rather have Melee be a side tournament.
 

aethermaster

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The lack of character variety can get boring, but let's be honest; when top tier characters fight, there's still a huge amount of skill, decision making, and overall strategy involved. If character variety, especially in game where variety exceeds through 8 different characters, you clearly have little appreciation of how the game actually plays.

I'm not arguing that character variety doesn't matter, but saying that it's not the important aspect of a fighting game is true, and it certainly shouldn't be called "the dumbest thing I've ever heard."
This. I think character variety is a good thing but speaking on Melee alone I remember a line from the documentary where someone said that two people can play Marth and the way they play him can be completely different. It all depends on the player and the strats that they use. Seeing a Marth vs Falco is always nice and entertaining and all but I'm personally bored of it hence why I'm rooting for Smash 4 to at least become used at tournaments (unlike Brawl). You're also right though history has shown that a wide character viability isn't the most important thing in a fighting game but its just something I'd personally like to see with smash 4 :upsidedown:
 
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KayB

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I use the match Fiction vs Aisengobay as a prime example that a top tier ditto can still be very entertaining to watch.
 

TunaAndBacon

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I will admit, although MVC2 is broke as ****, I still love watching the MVC2 gods (Yipes, Sanford, Justin, etc) play that game. Even though it's like the same 7 characters, the way those guys play that is like watching art unfold. It's just....beautiful. Yipes and Sanford are having an FT100 set right now as we speak on twitch. It's been glorious. So yeah, I understand why people love Melee so much. And I can appreciate watching masterful play in a very hard to master game. This is why I play Melee and why I don't want it gone forever. But just because I love MVC2 doesn't mean I wanna see it as the main game still, because UMVC3 exists, and it's where all the players are at, and it's brought tons of new blood to the scene, like Smash 4 will do and is currently doing for the Smash scene. That's why I'd rather have Melee be a side tournament.
Though I agree that variety is lacking a bit in top player characters, and the whole 20XX thing is making it seem like less and less players are playing anybody besides Fox, that doesn't mean that people are still not playing different characters and trying new things. Just look at Amsa, AXE, Kage. Even though these players aren't top 5, they inspired a bunch of new players to try somebody else besides Fox,Marth...etc.

But Melee aside, custom moves or not, a character is still fundamentally a character, and they are sometimes just going to be better then everybody else. Though it will be interesting to see how customization in special attacks will effect the meta, it will only take a bit of time before a handful of characters are seen as the best, and they take up most of the meta. And when that day in Sm4sh's life comes, everybody will be hyping up and rooting for the Amsas and AXEs playing whoever is declared bad.
 

MTL Kyle

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You named 17 different characters. UMVC3 has 50 I believe. That's less that half the cast, and most of them are repeats. My point still stands.
Every game is going to have top tiers. Deal with it and stop being a child lol.
There is a reason of why El Fuerte sucks and another why Pepeday won TGS.

This is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Heavily unbalanced games are bland and boring to watch. No character variety. Tons of mirror matches. Tasteless.
Sounds like Brawl.

Wtf does that even mean? That sentence doesn't even make sense. Funny thing is, I don't even play Brawl. I play Melee, and Project M LOL

Oh, and Melee should be a side tournament because it's ancient, and there's a new game on the horizon ripe for exploring. It needs to join Third Strike and ST in retirement, and take it's closeminded players with it.
God, you disgust me.
Your profile shows the games you play, except Melee, so I don't believe you.
 

zozo

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God, you disgust me.
Someone's catching feelings.

Your profile shows the games you play, except Melee, so I don't believe you.
I don't have a character listed in Melee because I'm still searching for a main. I'm currently messing around with Mewtwo and Sheik, but I haven't chosen either as a main yet, therefore I have nothing to put on my profile for Melee yet.
 
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By the time Evo comes around Smash 4 will probably be 8 months old and games of that age get featured all the time. By then people will have figured out their characters and enough tournaments will have passed to have a ruleset.
I can see having a major tournament some moderate amount of time after a game comes out. It helps to ensures a strong attendance by relying on the recent interest of a game after release. However, after being apart of brawl and Melee scenes for a few years now being able to contrast the old and new I see quite a bit of difference in the quality of matches played and even rulesets.

Here are some examples. Some super early melee rulesets at some major regionals I believe played with items on. While in recent memory these calibar tournaments feature items off. The number one reason for why items are removed is because randomness is a terrible mechanic in any competitive field. To cite a few community examples it is very common for say Pokemon simulation servers to host particular rules to reduce randomness. There are some clauses such as evasion, and OHKO. No double team or minimize on a pokemon. No moves like fissure, sheer cold, or horn drill. Let us bring up Brawl's trip mechanic which is despised quite well.

Brawl at Evo 2008 had items on as well. Another reason why I am not a fan of it. As far as stages go I am uncertain about what was at Evo 08 for Brawl, but we can look at the history of smash64, melee, and brawl stages. All stagelists had a history of being rather large. However, they have pretty much decreased in number over the years until you have very few stages.

-Smash64 I am not sure of as much, but I believe hyrule was common legal. Now, it is simply dreamland and peach's castle as counter pick.
-Melee had many stages for awhile. Some stages included brinstar, poke floats, jungle japes, and rainbow cruise. The typical 1v1 stage list now is 6 stages.
-Brawl had a rather large stage list as well. Eventually you saw pictochat, rainbow cruise, brinstar, etc. all eventually go away.

A game being out for 8 months is still no where near enough time for players to get really good at what they do and have a very evolved meta game. Like with anything with much depth it takes years of good competition to really refine the finer points of the players. The calls of Snake is so OP is long gone. People got better and Snake became more manageable. In melee, things like teching smash attacks while recovering to live, power shielding falco's lasers, dropping from platforms while in shield, etc. All of these super hard things a long time ago are things you are starting to commonly see more often among top players.

If I want to watch a professional match I would go with melee. If I want to watch a high school football game I'll go with Smash4.

If the mission of Evo is to generate interest in competitive gaming, then I suppose smash4 would be the better pick to pick up on a newer generation of gamers. If the idea of Evo is to represent a show case of some of the finest professionals, then melee would be the better pick.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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Guys, knock it off with the passive aggressive insults.

I don't think we've even established that customs moves will be a thing at this point. I really hope it does though, it'd add for some really interesting game play, but nothing's confirmed.

I mean I just don't want this conversation going down so many "if"s. Like its a lot of "IF this game works better than Brawl", "IF the game will have a larger pool of high tiered characters", "IF a good, established rule set will be made by then," I dunno.
They will most definitely be used unless the WiiU version is really tedious about settings it up, I doubt it though. I will say for sure the 3DS version will be keeping them legal. Samus can literally 180 her playstyle with custom movesets, they make that much of a difference for some characters and give them more viable movesets, can't absorb anything as Ness? Take his custom 2 instead for a more viable move.

It will develop the game more and does a lot of good, though I will admit some customs aren't that good lol.

Still this game really isn't an if it is better than Brawl, it straight up is better than Brawl from what we are seeing on a basic level.

Who is good or not is a to be determined but I can see it having a more diverse pool of characters that shows the better design this time around.

As for diversity, PM has everyone beat on that, but a lot of that is patches and no one really setting in stone a metagame like the others, this is a pro and a con but overall I like it more than what it used to be with knee jerk nerfs and buffs.

Brawl actually is better at diversity if we're gonna pull results out, well sort of. Melee's top is more rounded off, Brawl just has a more steady slope after MK in terms of percentage usage. Fox right now in Melee is actually more dominant than MK iis right now in Brawl.

Still it's a wait and see, but the game is better than Brawl for what it removed on mechanics and brought back. The rest is a wait and see for better balance and the like.
 

S2

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I'd love to see both there, but I doubt that will happen. If one is chosen I'd easily suggest that it be Smash 4.

Smash 4's potential to bring new players into the community is much higher. It's a new game and with that comes a flood of new interest in the franchise. Melee is a great game, but it's an old game, and despite it's greatness it's appeal is a niche audience. You can make mirror arguments that MvC2 and Street Fighter 3 were better than MvC3 and SF4 respectively. That may be true. But despite that it's the tournament scene for the newer sequels that grew those communities.

I called these older games niche audiences because the only players they're attracting are old veterans and franchise fans that got hooked on a newer iteration before becoming interested in the the older version everyone raves about. I love Melee because it's a great game, it would be the wrong decision to oust Smash 4 from Evo for it. We're going to have a bunch of new tournament hopefuls brought in by Smash 4 and having it featured in the largest FGC event of the year is going to fuel that fire. And that's a good thing for Melee fans in the long run because it's raising another generation of tournament Smash players. And that's a prime audience to teach Melee to when they see it getting played by veterans alongside the new game.
 

ShadyWolfe

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Smash Wii U looks to have a decent amount of stages that can be played competitively. We got Final Destination(and all its variants), Battlefield, Mushroom Kingdom U, Skyloft, Kalos Pokemon League, Pyrosphere(if Ridley isn't much of an intrusion, Halberd, Garden of Hope, Town and City, Gaur Plains(looks a little too big though), Windy Hill, and Pilot Wings so far. I expect the stage pool to be big for the first year but I feel 6 stages not including the Final Destination variants is enough I personally don't like that many gimmicky stages which is why I don't like playing Melee much because Pokemon Stadium is a common pick. Rules should be somewhere around 6-8 minutes and 2-3 stocks and ofcourse not items(hopefully if Nintendo sponsors it they do not try to shoehorn in items). Having both Smash U and Melee at EVO at different times would be ideal but if I had to choose between them Smash U definitely. It is the new Smash and will bring new blood to the Smash community besides Melee had 13 years to shine.
 

KayB

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Smash Wii U looks to have a decent amount of stages that can be played competitively. We got Final Destination(and all its variants), Battlefield, Mushroom Kingdom U, Skyloft, Kalos Pokemon League, Pyrosphere(if Ridley isn't much of an intrusion, Halberd, Garden of Hope, Town and City, Gaur Plains(looks a little too big though), Windy Hill, and Pilot Wings so far. I expect the stage pool to be big for the first year but I feel 6 stages not including the Final Destination variants is enough I personally don't like that many gimmicky stages which is why I don't like playing Melee much because Pokemon Stadium is a common pick. Rules should be somewhere around 6-8 minutes and 2-3 stocks and ofcourse not items(hopefully if Nintendo sponsors it they do not try to shoehorn in items). Having both Smash U and Melee at EVO at different times would be ideal but if I had to choose between them Smash U definitely. It is the new Smash and will bring new blood to the Smash community besides Melee had 13 years to shine.
Doesn't Gaur Plains have walk offs? And I'm pretty sure that Gaur plains will have Metal Face as a boss on the Wii U version.
 

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To answer the question, it depends on if I'm answering which one I think will be played at Evo, or which one I'd like to see being played at Evo.

If the question is which game I think will be played at Evo, I think it's up in the air, but perhaps moving a bit towards Melee. The arguments that Smash 4 is new and will be very popular by the time Evo 2015 hits and that Melee is the fan favorite that always can draw a nice, big competitive crowd seem about equal in my eyes. I say I think it'll slightly more likely be Melee because of what most others have said about developing a ruleset for Smash 4. Now I've never actually watched Evo let alone heard of it until months ago, but I believe the argument that 7-8 months probably isn't enough to make an appropriate ruleset for Smash 4. I'm sure Smash 4 will be very popular once it comes out everywhere, and a lot of people will probably like to see it at Evo next year, but if anything, Melee has been around for quite a while, and judging by things I'm guessing the ruleset for Melee is pretty solid by this time, so in other words, Melee would make Evo very... straightforward? More like lacking in issues or disturbances, I guess. But it could still be Smash 4 with its hype and all. As I said, it looks up in the air to me, for the most part.

If the question's which game I want to see be played at Evo, well... I just said I haven't even heard of Evo since months ago, so I don't think I'd mind watching competitive Melee. I mean, I'm sure others have been watching Melee be played for years and a lot of them might be tired of it by now, and I can respect that. I haven't, though, so I don't think I'd mind it very much, but that's just me. Of course I would like to see Smash 4 at Evo too, them being the new games and all, so I'll probably be alright with whichever game gets picked.
 

ShadyWolfe

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Doesn't Gaur Plains have walk offs? And I'm pretty sure that Gaur plains will have Metal Face as a boss on the Wii U version.
I completely forgot about the walkoffs so the stage will definitely not be allowed
 

Roxas215

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I love reading smashers debate about other fighters. Lmfao. Itt Nova and Magneto isn't top tier in marvel and 3rd strike is nothing but Yun and Chun. Lmfao.
 

Osennecho

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In my personal opinion melee is more exciting to watch and play. Part of why it is more exciting is that the meta has been pushed so far to the point it is as incredible as it is. In less than a year I don't see that happening to smash 4. Also I feel like now that melee is at EVO I never want it to leave. Also melee is simply designed to be more of a competitive fighting game which is something I associate with EVO. There's nothing wrong with smash 4 tournaments and streams, but at a fighting game tournament of EVO's caliber..... It just doesn't feel right to me.

If Nintendo is sponsoring EVO again, thread aside, I think both melee and smash4 could manage to be included at least this year. I feel this would also placate Nintendo and probably allow them to only include melee in subsequent years.
 

C-SAF

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It will be smash4, but it should be melee. I doubt Nintendo ever makes another competitive smash game. Of course if everyone in the community is just like "give it a chance" we will never know because there will be no reason for them to try. In a year when everyone realizes its brawl all over again, Nintendo will just laugh at the competitive scene because they know we'll buy whatever they sell us.
 

victinivcreate1

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I'd love to see both there, but I doubt that will happen. If one is chosen I'd easily suggest that it be Smash 4.

Smash 4's potential to bring new players into the community is much higher. It's a new game and with that comes a flood of new interest in the franchise. Melee is a great game, but it's an old game, and despite it's greatness it's appeal is a niche audience.
Idk if Melee would fall under niche when its drawing in
629 at APEX 2014
696 and 970 at EVO 2013 and 14
Over 500 at the Big House 4 (not 100% sure about this, but I read it in the Smashboards news a week or so ago).

In contrast Brawl only drew in 410 at Apex 2012, 318 at 2013, and 370 at 2014. Smash 4 is arguably closer to Brawl than Melee in a variety of ways, so I don't see Smash 4 drawing in as many entrants.

At the moment Melee is very likely going to dwarf Smash 4's scene. I can see PM gaining more steam after 3.5. Smash 4 is most likely not going to be received well as a competitive game because of loss of features that were in previous smash games, for the worse.
 

KayB

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In contrast Brawl only drew in 410 at Apex 2012, 318 at 2013, and 370 at 2014. Smash 4 is arguably closer to Brawl than Melee in a variety of ways, so I don't see Smash 4 drawing in as many entrants.

At the moment Melee is very likely going to dwarf Smash 4's scene. I can see PM gaining more steam after 3.5. Smash 4 is most likely not going to be received well as a competitive game because of loss of features that were in previous smash games, for the worse.
You shouldn't use late-Brawl turnouts as your proof that Smash 4, being a separate game and all, will have less entrants, nor is using the similarities between Brawl a fair determiner of turnouts.

And the game isn't even out yet in the US. Lots of ifs.
 

zozo

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@ victinivcreate1 victinivcreate1 The game won't be out till tmrw, and the Wii U version won't be out yet till this Christmas or next year. It hasn't had ANY time to be explored yet, so any claims about it being less competitive are pretty dumb at this point. You can't say, oh Smash 4 doesn't have such and such feature that Melee has, so obviously it's less competitive because it's not Melee. I hate that mentality.
 

SmashBro99

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Melee:



Smash 4:



I'd like to see Smash 4 as it's fresh and Melee (imo and many others as well) has become pretty boring to watch...the commentators are good at their job and trying to make a 30% edgehog seem hype but in reality it's boring as ****. Plus more than 3-4 characters would be used, which adds to the who "fun to watch" thing.
 
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Landry

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Interesting opinions. Keep them coming!
Can we please, PLEASE not have this debate yet? Smash 4 still isn't even out yet. People are just spewing bias with no baseline for opinions.

And what's more, turning this into a Melee vs Smash 4 thread is the worst thing we could do. I'm sure both games will have camps that support them so pitting the two against each other won't accomplish much.
 

Max Ketchum

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I would much rather see Smash 4 get its first spot on the Evo lineup before seeing Melee get its fourth.
 

Hellsing

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I want to see Smash 4 at EVO. I've grown tired of seeing Melee.
 

omgwtfToph

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I think this thread is counterproductive, especially this early in the game - there isn't even an established tournament scene for Smash 4 yet, the Wii U version (which presumably will be the game to appear on the EVO stage) isn't even out yet, and so people are making uninformed votes at best and spewing inflammatory garbage at worst.

Rather, I'd like to focus on how to bring the scenes together at this point and try to push for having both games at EVO. From experience, the set of people who compete in Melee are relatively disjoint from the set of people who are interested in competing in Smash 4, and thus I feel like having both games at EVO could bring in a HUGE number of entrants. Let's not forget that Melee has shattered one stream record already and ran nearly 1k unique entrants last year. Smash 4 is going to be enormous as well, since there'll be a huge influx of new casual players.

All we can hope to do in arguing Melee vs. Smash 4 this early in the game is making uneducated insults, which is what this thread seems to have devolved into pretty quickly. Without getting into the specifics, nearly all the comments in here attempting to downplay either Melee or Smash 4 have been oversimplified.
 
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Maneater

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Definitely Melee. Been playing Sm4sh for a month now and while it clearly needs to develop, putting it at EVO so early won't really help that much, I don't think. Give it time to develop a natural meta before putting it on the tournament circuit, give it time for the potential balance patch, then when we're out a ways bring it to more big scale tourneys.

As it is right now lots of broken things are in the game -- not even matchup/character wise, but weird glitches and such. A series of patches in inevitable and I think they will be important to how the meta forms.

I don't hate Sm4sh at all, but I do think Melee is more interesting competitively due to how aggressive it is in comparison. I have ~600 matches logged into Sm4sh (in no way enough to make a really hardcore critical analysis) and my overall playstyle right now is centered around trapping people who abuse defensive tactics, which in general are very, very safe. Things like air dodging and back dodging are very harshly abused both by CPUs and by online players -- many of which I assume are Japanese children going by their tags/playstyles -- and while I usually win unless they hit a streak of luck, it is enough to realize that some of these defensive options could, in the wrong (read:salty) hands be really abused. This leads to a very slow, methodical (and interesting to play, though kind of repetitive and boring to watch) playstyle. It says a lot that the CPU constantly uses air dodge their entire way down during recovery, specifically when the game is centered so much around air game. While these tactics are easy to work around, they do create a mindset that punishes aggression. Oftentimes I've found the best way to approach is to air dodge towards my opponent, or to wait for them to attack, spot dodge, and then attack immediately. Surely a meta will evolve around this and it will get more complicated, but if we're putting it at Evo strictly because it will gain a large amount of participants it wouldn't be surprising if a large amount of people played like this.

This isn't a qualitative statement about the game itself. As I said, I don't know enough yet to make a full statement and I've been playing the game for a month. I like it enough, but I think Melee is, at least currently, better suited for a competitive competition like Evo. Melee was hype as hell in '13 and '14, and I don't see any reason why that should stop just because Sm4sh came out. It's shiny, it's new, and it's pretty cool, but it needs time on its own to breath before we replace Melee with it at Evo, specifically if balance patches and significant changes could be made to it that will effect the meta in ways that could greatly influence how the game is played.

It deserves a spot at Evo for sure, I'm just not sure if it's now, or if giving up Melee is worth giving Sm4sh the spotlight. I like it a fair amount even with its flaws. I'm sure the community will have to decide eventually.

Edit:


I think this thread is counterproductive, especially this early in the game - there isn't even an established tournament scene for Smash 4 yet, the Wii U version (which presumably will be the game to appear on the EVO stage) isn't even out yet, and so people are making uninformed votes at best and spewing inflammatory garbage at worst.

Rather, I'd like to focus on how to bring the scenes together at this point and try to push for having both games at EVO. From experience, the set of people who compete in Melee are relatively disjoint from the set of people who are interested in competing in Smash 4, and thus I feel like having both games at EVO could bring in a HUGE number of entrants. Let's not forget that Melee has shattered one stream record already and ran nearly 1k unique entrants last year. Smash 4 is going to be enormous as well, since there'll be a huge influx of new casual players.

All we can hope to do in arguing Melee vs. Smash 4 this early in the game is making uneducated insults, which is what this thread seems to have devolved into pretty quickly. Without getting into the specifics, nearly all the comments in here attempting to downplay either Melee or Smash 4 have been oversimplified.
What Toph says here is great. People are taking things as a chance to hate on players for games that haven't even developed yet. While I think Melee deserves to get the tourney if they have to chose a single game, I think what he says about pushing for both is a great middle ground. He's also right about people making uneducated, myopic insults about the nature of both games and how they work competitively and what makes them great (hint: its the people who play them).

Only a few of us have had the privilege to play the game yet. We are all playing on inferior hardware, at least until the New 3DS comes out. There is literally no way we can know the nature of the game as it will be given some time. For all I know, everything I mentioned above could be patched out in two weeks and the game will be amazing competitively.

We need to give things time to breath. So even as someone who comes from Melee, and even as someone who prefers Melee to Sm4sh, I think the best assessment is to wait a bit and give Sm4sh some time to develop.
 
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Myran

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No, but they have to have depth. 64 has a Brawlesque neutral game at high level and doesn't have wavedash (teleporting doesn't count k?!), but nobody cusses at 64 because the game has a lot of depth into it.

Think about it.




If you are not familiar with the FGC in general, you refrain yourself from the discussion.

Even though the game might be popular because of the novelty and casual appeal, you have to remember that SSF2T had the main stage on EVO and it was insanely hype. Traditional games SHOULD have their spot because they are the foundation of the community.

Also, those companies put money into EVO to have their game there. Nintendo never spent a dime and ****ed us over for a looooong time. Suddenly they see a marketing opportunity and we are taking in the butt because of that ? HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLL NO. Melee should stay there because we built all of this and giving the spot to Nintendo would be the ultimate offense to us.



Being a perfect medium between something really good and hell on earth shouldn't be an example. I really dislike Brawl fanboys like you who get all defensive when people state that Melee is a really good game, therefore it should have the spotlight.

It could be a 20 year old game. It's still good, people still play it, community has been more active than ever and being the 3rd most played game at EVO, there are simply NO ARGUMENTS of why it should be taken off.


Smash 4 is going to be cool, I know it, but stop being a Brawltard.
Just a quick note in regard to your Brawltard argument. You can't tell people to stop being defensive about Brawl or whatever when you won't let people say Brawl is a great fighting game. Just my 2 cents.

Also I want Smash 4 cause it's fun.
 
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