Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

[OverLord]

if you do wavelands from ledge frame perfect you actually have a small room of invincibility (very small). It can be good to avoid be grabbed and grab back with a pivot. Worked LOT of times.

 

[edgeluca]

Most people know that, but thanks for sharing for people who don't know. Indeed, you have to be quick to use the invincibility effectively.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Wait, what? Argh. Dang Marth...

It's sad, but it's true. It MIGHT have a usable amount of ledge invincibility if you're frame perfect.

Here, let me reword this:
You can't rely on his ledge wavedash like Fox/Falco/Falcon/Sheik/Pikachu (I hate that I include him in my list of good characters) can.

Also, do you (or anyone else) recommend more UpB out of shield? I never really do that at all, and that vid of M2K I just watched had him do it right after the shine. Would that normally beat out fox/falco? Is it good in general?

I personally love it, but I don't have a situation in which I like to use it. I think I use up B more than most Marths, but I sorta just have a sense for when to do it.

I remember one time, Forward was pressuring my shield on the last stock. He does a shine, and then I WD back out of my shield, and when he lands on the ground with a dair, I do a shoryuken. It was really dope. LOL ANYWAY...

I also like using it to punish laggy stuff on your shield, like Peach's dash attack SOMETIMES. Or like in Tipping an Illusion when I taunted cuz Falco was so high up and i shield -> reverse up B'd out when he came down with a bair

Also, I just like using up B a lot in general on the ground as a punish LOL. Sometimes I just bait people into dashdance -> reverse up B, and it's really sweet when it works.

Only thing is, missing Marth's up B is one of the most painful things in Smash.....

 

[MasterShake]

Haha you didn't edit your other post out...

 

[Tee ay eye]

i didnt feel like logging out of SWF on okami's computer
i still hate you with a passion

how dare you say anything was better than Tipping an Illusion

also, i have a bunch of sets im gonna upload for critique today or tomorrow
two vs Axe
one vs GG7
two vs Rubyiris
one vs OkamiBW

 

[edgeluca]

Did you win against Axe?

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Aight Chipmunk lets go. I'm going to be very general, and not deal with matchup particulars per your request.

-You have to get more technical. You cannot win with this much of a tech disadvantage.

-Remember that most of Marth's range is in front of him. There are extended periods of time where you are facing your back to your opponent. Try to remove instances which put you facing away from your opponent, and learn to get out of those situations as quickly as possible.

-Be careful with your WD forward. Try to minimize your use of it. WD forward dtilt is one of the only times you should be using WD forward as a spacing option (WD forward grab/fsmash are fine when the opponent is in lag ofc).

-When an opponent is approaching from above, standing your ground is usually the worst option. Don't fish for shieldgrabs in those situations because it won't work on a good player. Throwing out a ground move like fsmash/utilt should only happen if you know they can't/won't double jump (vs. fastfallers). Instead, DD or WD away from their landing, far enough away to dodge their falling aerial, and grab them. Or, if they are high up enough, just hit them, usually with uair.

-Approaching, rising aerials. This is probably your biggest problem, along with the whole
facing the wrong direction thing. Approaching rising double fair is a risky approach, particularly against fast characters. In general, approaching aerials are huge risks and easily punished. Use your grab, dtilt, and falling fair as an approach instead.

-Don't shield if they are not in your range. Shielding when they are nowhere near you is very bad. Focus on your opponents position and ranges and determine whether you are in danger. Realize that shielding is not a safe option. It limits you and should be used only when absolutely necessary. If stuck in shield do more than WD OOS. And if you do WD OOS do stuff after it, dont just stand there.

-Control space above you. Uair. Learn it, love it. Its like the entire reason Marth is a good character. If someone is on the top platform, make them feel the pain. If someone is above you, it is not a neutral position. Hit them. (note: before I was talking about if someone is approaching from above you. This is just if someone is in stun/chillin above you)

-People aren't just going to run into your grab. If someone is approaching you with a dash, don't grab. You go for grabs standstill a lot.

-More movement, but particularly necessary movement. DD when they are a mile away from you doesn't do much. It doesn't threaten them or make them think you are dashing away. Get in their face and make them feel the pain.

Aight that is more than enough for now. Lots of general spacing things to work on. Some harder than others.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Thank you dude. That's gonna help me out a bunch. Now I just gotta find time to play again so I can start to work on those things. It'll probably be after M2K leaves unfortunately.

 

[Tee ay eye]

vs GG7 (good set imo)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7KqNUCp7Vs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9ZXvmQfIt8

vs Rubyiris
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLiSURm03Gc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2YXFiqOkWM

vs Okami (please help me become amazing at this MU)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdfElg-l3yo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4diis2MkYUo

vs Axe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGgnlmfCdjA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_DWaB5LAhg

 

[ILM]

Vs Falco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eeAIZT91Tk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM5tmitMuBk

Vs Sheik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEaYSERCRFw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLxq6Cc4Yuc

Also these are all part of a playlist of my most recent matches, if anyone wants to look at other ones.

IDK, part of my problem is that in friendlies I tend to go for really rediculous stuff I almost know won't work, but any critique would be appreciated.

EDIT: Reference code "pen 15" I guess.

 

[Bob Money]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdfElg-l3yo&feature=relmfu


vs Okami
Dooruken set

Wow good **** on the wd forward d tilts

Instead of WD fsmahs to hit shiek off, just WD or dash dance to up B.
Yor cCing got alot better

Work on pivot grabbing/grabbing him when he approaches you after you land with aerial. 4:27-28 Dreamland. Cuz 90 percent of the time
shiek isnt going to jump when she approaches you. Either will wd back or block usually, either one will get eaten up by marths grab , you can always dash foward a bit and then grab if you think hes gunna wave back.
Shieks hit box for her dash attack isnt instanst so there's that sweet spot distance where its hard for her to avoid grabs when shes dashing foward.


You're good on ftrow reaction butthen sometimes you guess and get punished. Even though ftrow is good, the point is not to wrack up damage but to get shiek in a bad situation. The reason is doesnt work as well on shiek as falcon is because sheiks just better overall when it comes to getting out of pressure and can SS under the ledge etc.
If you're hurting for a kill on shiek try throwing her up at 90-110 ish and then follow her with a move to knock her off stage
even though you cant combo at tht high, you're forcing shiek to use a djump or be extremly tricky to get away from you under her. I can tell you're obviously the smarter player in the match so should rely more on upthrow chasing than reaction fthrow tech chasing at high percent. Even though you mixed in some back throws you should try them in the middle of stage too
its much more unexpected. also back throw onto a platform to fsmash or uptilt is good too.


On the first FD match, Okami wd dash backs so much , you should just walk up and see whaat he does/ duck. also you can wd in grab after a dash way to mix it up.
If you miss the grab chances are at low-mid percent he can only punish you with a grab because of your CC. If he's smart he wont grab unless he knows its guarenteed, but thats one thing you should test vs shiek players if how often they attack and get CC'ed at low percent. basically at low percent I miss a grab and hold down to test how smart the shiek player is.


Sooooo many times you just do a retreating aerial after you miss a tech chase, you should just dash grab him even if you miss because he's in that in between range where he's kinda stuck. ONe thing ive noticed about okami is that he doesnt ftilt to keep you out.

yafter you down tilt his shield or miss a down tilt just wait a split second to see what he does before you retreat or do a move.


Anyone who texts me in Spanish as well gets big critique! You get my virginity if you text me in Indonesian. pm me if you want my number.

 

[Niko45]

Tai I'll just point out a couple things you're probably well aware of:

Vs CF:

During some of the luls in the action where he is just kinda waiting or DDing far away from you you're sometimes just throwing out nairs or fairs that I don't really think are accomplishing anything (except giving him free windows to try to punish you). Aerial to dash away is obviously a good bait but you seem to be doing repeated aerials in place at times which is really easy for a patient Falcon like this to punish. Could just be nerves or a lapse in concentration cause it's not happening all the time but it doesn't have to happen much for CF to make you pay a big price.

When he grabs you at 40 DI in so that he can't double up air you. If he has to do the first up air in place he won't have the momentum to up air you again (if you DI the up air itself away).

In general mix up your DI more on the throws so that he at least has to earn those knees out of throws. Slight in, slight away, challenge him to at least space really well all the time (hey, it's better than just DIing away all the time and letting him press forward jump A for free kills). You started mixing it up later on in the set but it was a little too late I think.

I think you could be a little more aggressive in edgeguarding CF. Falcons way way worse than GG7 are going to be capable of DJ sweet spotting the ledge consistently so I'd skip all those dtilts and just take the ledge from him and punish his up B/air dodge afterwards. If you're worried about quick DJs back on stage and attacking you, I guess you have to mix it up, but I'd definitely assume he's going to sweetspot and then adjust accordingly afterwards to that instead of the other way around.

In a similar vein with the edgeguards you could go out there and hit him on predictable falcon kicks. And if he's ever in a position where you know well in advance that he's going to recover low, just drop down bair him from the ledge for the easy kill. He doesn't ledge tech very well which gives you the luxury of not really needing to do that but some falcons will honestly abuse ledgeteching if you only edgeguard them from the stage.

Vs Sheik:

Considering how solidly you tech chase CF I think it's pretty clear watching you do it vs sheik that it's simply not as effective against her. Her tech roll is too long and the lag is too short to consistently take great advantage of it. Pay off is too low cause you're not gimping her like CF and she flips the script on you so much faster than CF can since she can punish you out of her sidestep or a jab. At higher % you really have no choice but to go for the tech chases cause up throw becomes useless but personally I think you need to be really good at punishing her out of both types of throws and it seems like you could improve your reads off of your up throws a bit.

You should recover a bit lower than you are against her so that that dropzone nair isn't hitting you. Will help against more traditional sheik edgeguards from the ledge too.

I think the way you're edgeguarding her is the most solid way to 'guard her (replenishing ledge invince, stand up and fsmash etc). I think once you have the sheik trained to expect you to do this, it's a good idea to mix in some edgeguards where you jump out at her with your back to her and flirt with back airing her. You can sometimes bait sheik to up B early, maybe letting you fsmash her before she gets to the ground again and just in general on some stages it can be really disorienting for them if you jump out at them (Dreamland comes to mind) because the camera follows you and no one can see the edge (which favors you imo). Or if you think you think you've done standard edgeguards enough that the sheik will be napping during her recovery (recovering is so boring, isn't it?) you can just bair her.

On stage spacing - when you are spaced well against sheik, and she's uncomfortable (usually where you're standing at the very edge of her dash attack range) sheiks absolutely love to full hop straight up and do needle stuff. They think they're safe but if you look for this you can catch them with fair constantly. Just in general I think it's important to keep in mind that your fair utterly ***** her in the air and challenge her in the air whenever possible.

 

[MT_]

Some input from a noob, Tai:

I noticed that you missed a lot of juggle opportunities against Sheik because you're too eager to throw your uair out there. I think if you played your juggle game a little more patiently you'd have a lot more success in keeping Sheik from reaching the ground. It kinda sucked when you barely missed your uair even after the Sheik blew her double jump, giving up a significant advantage.

 

[Niko45]

Oh I forgot to mention something else on edgeguarding sheik: If you get sheik to 150-160ish you can legit combo ledgehop dair into up air for a kill. I think if Marths start doing this consistently it will really help because it's not THAT uncommon for sheik to live to that percent and it's virtually a guaranteed kill. I think I saw a couple of opportunities in the FD matches where you could have done it.

 

[MT_]

Definitely going to try that next time I play a Sheik... thanks for the tip Niko haha

 

[BBQ°]

hey guys, I'm looking for harsh critique. No ***** **** please. I want to get better, so I want someone to judge my marth for what it is.

these are tournament matches and money matches

marth vs falco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7kA9N12PlY

marth vs fox
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B4SRrpzZTE

marth vs fox MM part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu4oJGmO78A

marth vs fox MM part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXI8k1GJce4

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Aight guys I have done a lot of critiques by now so I think its time to throw my hat into the ring:

My recent set vs. Wenz

Other than Samus, Doc seems to be my worst matchup. I've been trying to play with Boss and Wenz, the two best Docs in my region, but I am still very confused on what I am supposed to do, especially without platforms. I've got a bunch of self-critique (particularly on my combos/followups) but I thought I'd let you guys handle that.

 

[BBQ°]

nice improvements dude.

I'm actually just now starting to understand the Doc matchup, but my ideas are so vague that I wouldn't be able to describe them with correct advice.

One suggestion I can give you though is that you should focus more against fighting the player, not the character. It seems like you were too focused on your spacing and trying to play "marth vs doc" instead of trying to play "the crimson blur vs wenz". Because you were doing that, you weren't focusing on the stuff he was doing to beat you as a player.

 

[OverLord]

Yo Crimson, it seems to me that you just have to work on comboing Doc better. You hit him lot of times and could've combo'd the **** but just didn't follow up.


@ BBQ: saw your set against Falco. Just think you should wait more, that Falco loved to roll all around you while you were jumping>aerial, you should just bait those rolls and punish.

 

[Palpi]

BBQ, you over commit to your approaches too often. I think you should SHFF fair a little more than just SHdouble fair. It allows you to not commit as much and leave your options more open.

Also, I think against the fox, you naired a little too much. Once again, it is an overcommitment.

You have a very smart patient juggle (air?) game, and I think you would really improve if you had that same mindset on the stage.

 

[Niko45]

Aight guys I have done a lot of critiques by now so I think its time to throw my hat into the ring:

My recent set vs. Wenz

Other than Samus, Doc seems to be my worst matchup. I've been trying to play with Boss and Wenz, the two best Docs in my region, but I am still very confused on what I am supposed to do, especially without platforms. I've got a bunch of self-critique (particularly on my combos/followups) but I thought I'd let you guys handle that.

I fight doc a lot.

Basically throw out any pre-conceived notions or myths about doc and this matchup.

Myth #1: Doc's recovery sucks.

Doc's recovery does suck in a sense, as in, if he misses a DI he's probably dead or in big trouble. However, good players don't miss recovery DI very often, and especially against Marth who doesn't make people miss recovery DI very often, he'll be DIing fine and the fact is if he DIs well he has fantastic recovery tools.

For this reason you should might want to stop fsmashing/dtilting the ledge. You're just lagging in front of him and a waveland with invince frames is coming. If you are actually going to attempt to edgeguard doc, you need to take the ledge from him, and if you don't have time to do that you need to just prepare yourself as well as possible for the inevitable waveland he's bringing. Doc's most often will waveland into shield, wait for you to do something, then respond with a roll or a sidestep. If you're really confident he'll do this you can just grab here but the safer play is to just dtilt the shield and react to what he does. Just try to maintain control here and LOOK FOR GRABS. You don't grab very much and grabbing ***** Doc.

Myth #2: Just wall Doc he can't possibly get in.

You already seem to be seeing this as you're not really spending too much time spamming moves in front of him. You should try to cut this down to not spamming ANY moves in front of him. Doc's WD oos jab is a nasty approach and will punish a lagging Marth. Basically, Doc can get in, but he's probably going to do a lot of shielding to do this. This is when you need to find grab opportunities. His sidestep is annoying, so you can't telegraph the grab attempt too badly, but watch his patterns in and out of shield and usually the best time to pounce for a grab is the exact moment he likes to begin shielding.

Myth #3: Don't try to grab Doc.

Grab is enormous in this matchup imo. When you're not that experienced in it your grabs will be telegraphed and he'll sidestep and **** you. You just have to find better spots to grab. Once you grab, you should mix up your throws. You seem to be back throwing a lot, which is not bad but not my personal preference. If I'm near the ledge I'll dthrow him off and try to mindgame him with stealing the ledge and what not. Generally speaking, I like to up throw Doc. He's terrible at getting himself back down. He's miserable at challenging you in the air with anything other than his dair. Which means once you have Doc above you, you should be doing absolutely nothing except looking for that dair (cause it's definitely coming). You seem to rush up into the air to challenge doc and he just FF dairs through you, completely flipping the momentum. Try to fight that fight closer to the ground (but still in the air). Protect yourself by just hovering in a short hop under a platform. Sometimes just empty hop and drop back down into an up tilt. The big thing is, don't commit so early in the air against doc because you have him over a barrel. If you ever steal his double jump ala vs sheik, you won't see any character die so fast in this game.

I think you're doing a decent job of getting Doc uncomfortable/out of position, but then you're a bit impatient when it comes to actually taking advantage of that. I actually prefer FD to most stages vs Doc because the lack of platforms makes it horrible for him to get back down on the ground. The fact that he's kind of floating in front of a guy with a huge sword is going to force him to want to do SOMETHING. Whether it's an air dodge, cape, or dair just be patient and maintain control. Even if all you get out of it is another grab, just keep it going. Force him to come back down again. You want to fight doc in the air. He wants to fight you on the ground where he can shield and cc and dsmash. If you start hitting him in the air intead of GETTING hit by his dair every time, you'll probably swing your matches 2 stocks.

Couple other random things:

Pills - You're doing a lot of jumping over pills and fairing pills. Doc wants you to get uncomfortable/out of position here, so don't do this. Just jab pills. Unless he pills from extremely far away, he can't actually catch up to the pill in time to punish you jabbing the pill and then reacting to his approach. When doc pill spams me I jab and walk towards him between pills. He'll feel the pressure eventually.

Recovery - Vs Doc is one of the rare matchups I feel like high recovery is actually better. Too many bair tricks, not to mention the cape, makes low recovery pretty dangerous here. He actually gimps you better than you gimp him. By quite a bit imo. Recover high and watch out for bairs always. Don't do any wreckless side B's hovering above the edge of the stage.

IMPORTANT: Your Fair game - Spacing fairs and mixing up your fairs is the key to this matchup imo. While you can't truly wall him, spacing fairs really well is very hard for him to beat. You'll notice when space fair on this doc's shield, he likes to roll behind you. Fair his shield and just wait for something and react. You also should mix in early fairs and mid-shorthop fairs. By changing up your fair timings it will really confuse him as far as his shield and OOS timing, which will then net you grabs later on. You don't want to be lunging really far at him with early fairs obviously, but if your spacing is already there, early fair in place/retreating early fair on shield is a great mix up. Once you actually land a fair it's just about reaction to follow up with more fairs. If you don't react in time, pull back. Don't go for the direct follow up if you don't think you reacted in time, and instead play the waiting game underneath him. Wait for a mistake or something to capitalize and punish further that way. I think sometimes you're starting your short hop fairs from too far away, then they end up coming up short, and he just punishes the lag. Work on keeping yourself in a specific range against doc and then w.hore out fair when it's actually threatening him.

 

[Metal Reeper]

That is amazing doc advice ^

Vs Doc I would say to Jab and Dtilt. He throws pills.Then u fair> then he moves in for the ****. They usually WD approach so Dtilt and jab ruins them. Same vs Luigi etc.

 

[ILM]

No love for ILM?

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Thanks Niko. That was an excellent post. Helped a lot. A few questions:

1. What do I do in corner situations? It feels like Doc keeps the tempo of the match so easily. Pills make it really hard to move forward. Furthermore, there are a lot of scary mixups. Boss likes to do this. High pill and then dashdance. You put out a move (like Bob$ does) and he comes in with a fair in the face. You jump and he waveshields in. You move forward and he does an overextended aerial on your shield. The best thing to do usually is just sit there but then he just transitions to another low risk mindgame and I dunno what to do.

2. I agree with you about how high recovery is better against Doc, and you see me doing it a lot G3 on FD, but I end up getting ***** for it. I can get out of his uairs & bairs if I have a platform, but without them, I'm just a sitting duck...

3. Ah, I really want to grab, I really do. Pills just keep me so standstill. And then whenever I do get the opportunity, sidestep ***** me half the time. I guess there isn't much to say about this other than "I have to pick my spots better and telegraph less" haha

4. Yeah I should uthrow more. I like bthrow in this matchup too, but I should just mix it up.

thanks to BBQ, Overlord, & Reeper too. I def gotta work on adapting to the player & combos. Also jab->walk forward. mmm

 

[Niko45]

In corner situations do a lot of platform fair camping when he's not pilling. Waveland to platform (in place), drop through with fair. Repeat. Look for an opening. It's very difficult for Doc to flat out approach you while doing this. Now if he starts pilling, the high bounce of the pill takes this away from you because pills will hit your feet almost perfectly through platforms. If he pills just jab the pills. The problem in the Shroomed clip was the up tilt Bob$ did. He jabbed the pill just fine but then threw out an up tilt hoping to snag an approach which is pretty dangerous there. Shroomed just punished the lag. The pill had nothing to do with anything really. If you really want to just intercept an aerial approach you can just...jab him as he comes in after you've jabbed the pill. That or retreat fair. Or jab the pill and proceed to waveland to the platform quickly. If he ever DOES time the pill and the fair approach to hit basically at the same time, you'll need to actually fair the pill and doc all in one swoop.

You can also anticipate any full hop pill stuff and fair Doc out of it if they like to do that too much.

For the most part I don't really find recovering high very hard on FD. Doc can't really cover both high and low and if you see him cheating towards your high recovery you have to react and fastfall down to the ledge asap. Again, not side Bing can be your best friend here.

The grabs will come. Just don't give up on them is what I'm saying. Bait those sidesteps. Anticipate when he likes to BEGIN shielding and grab right then to surprise him.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Gah, I wrote a really long, well-worded reply to Niko's post yesterday but I apparently never posted it. I thought I did, but I've closed the tab and the post is irretrievable now. Bummer.

Basically I was going over the different options Doc covers while you are in the corner and why high pill to DD is so scary. The pill stops Marths movement and forces him to jab, thus sticking him in the corner. After that, with Marths WD back option removed, its rather simple for Doc to give Marth hell. Its not so much trying to figure out how to stop Doc's fair approach (like Niko showed, Marth has various options to stop that) but how to stop a baiting Doc who has tempo. The Doc won't fair unless he sees that utilt/fsmash/whatever to punish. Its a simple flowchart for him and if you do nothing he just throws more pills. Marth can demolish Doc in the corner too, but its so much easier for Doc to set up those situations due to pills' range.

Platform camping really helps though I agree. I do it a lot in that set. I don't have the spacing of it all down yet but its when I dont have platforms that I get ****ed.

 

[Niko45]

Forgot to mention you can also go top platform if you're just looking to escape. It's a fairly big commitment for Doc to attack top platform on most stages so if you go up there you might be able to bait him to follow you then quickly fastfall down to whichever side is safer and you might even end up underneath him.

 

[Shroomed]

niko we need to MM =)

 

[Dart!]

oh god, don't let him take your money so he wastes it on kool aid and corn pops

 

[Shroomed]

why did i not hear of you before P5 dart

ur pretty good

but marth is like my second best matchup =P

 

[Tee ay eye]

why are you here dajuan

 

[Shroomed]

cuz i recently discovered namesearching bro

 

[Niko45]

Lets get it, Shroomed. Hopefully at G2.

 

[Tee ay eye]

cuz i recently discovered namesearching bro

i cant name search cuz my name is 3 letters (and nobody's gonna type out teeayeye)

i'm not important/good enough to do it anyway

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i namesearch a few times a year just to make sure nobody is saying bad things about me

 

[Tee ay eye]

f*ck sveet

what a worthless piece of sh*t

i hate that dude
agggghhhh

 

[Shroomed]

i mite start playing marf guys

i've already been playing sheik lately

i won yesterday's tourney with her =D

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

f*ck sveet

what a worthless piece of sh*t

i hate that dude
agggghhhh

lol i namesearched last week, which is funny cause the other times i did it i was only mentioned in threads i was following/posting in frequently. This last time i was mentioned in a few other threads that i hadn't even seen before. Nothing bad, ofc, just name drop

 

[Tee ay eye]

i mite start playing marf guys

i've already been playing sheik lately

i won yesterday's tourney with her =D

move to arizona
home of marths and lower tiers (doc counts)

 

[Dart!]

shroomed changing chars?