Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

[Dart!]

I know how to PLAY the Falco matchup. I was asking for in-depth analysis of what I was doing wrong and what to do differently.

OH, i guess i missed your post with the video. i'll look for it and critique if i can...


To start it off i wasn't really impressed with the falco's choices but eh.

One thing, if you're doing better vs falco on DL than FD that just means you need to work on your grab game. Wait for spotdodges when they get up then grab.

when falco is off stage don't bother with the ledge if he's below it just fall off and fb him once or twice then recover.

Chaingrabs: when chaingrabbing falco at 21-24 percent pummel him once then upthrow uptilt and after that either shorthop uair or regrab.

 

[Rubyiris]

Yeah Cooper only recently started to really try to work on his Falco. I've actually gotten quite a bit better with Marth since I posted those videos.

I'll get some videos of my Marth vs better players in the next week.

 

[DJMirror]

Dart made me lol

 

[stelzig]

Ok here are the two ganon matches. I don't know if these are the best for critique as there are some thing i'm pretty sure I wouldn't do if I wasn't sleepy, but if you can point anything out it would be nice. The guy is apparently also really good at ganon-marth (he beat Dev's marth in pools... Dev being the best player at that tournament)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQmZML3C3m0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-06J2tt6SL8

Edit:

And a new game against the samus who this time knocked me out of the tournament: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InU23DE2mFc&feature=recentu
He already stopped the spotdodging thing before I got to play him again so yeah.

 

[Dart!]

I've got a few more fox/sheik MU's i would appreciate critique on if possible.

*i'm gonna run through the last page or two to see what i can critique of you guys *

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx6s1Ikloh0&feature=related (vs Fox and Sheik)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gPCJDbGYMk&feature=related (vs Fox and Sheik)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi3JHq7UbQM (vs fox and marth)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiiouUjxLUA (vs Fox and Marth)

 

[Niko45]

Dart your fsmashes are so intelligent. I don't think I've ever seen a marth fsmash so much yet basically never whiff them. I feel like in spots where I would be trying to read their movement to try to start some more complicated combo you're just like "LOL fsmash gg."

The most glaring thing you need to work on is your recovery dude. You recover high above the ledge like...every time. At least every time possible lol. It's really bad to do that. Spacies will just sit and wait for the inevitable side B or air dodge that you will need to do and then bair you. In the Marth dittos particularly you got crushed for it cause Marth punishes that recovery so hard. Whenever Marth down threw you off stage you immediately double jumped back at him above the ledge which is pretty much just suicide in marth ditto. Your risk reward is just so awful in that situation. Be calm and collected when off stage and DJ sweetspot whenever it's at all possible. Marth is actually not too good at punishing himself below the stage (neither are spacies...or anyone else really except maybe sheik).

Now help me with sheik. :D

 

[Tichinde925]

I'm a scrub. I have been playing against my good friend ZoSo and he has taught me many things, though obviously I need to practice / learn.

What else should I be doing?

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rim+zoso+tichinde

ZoSo is Player 2 for all games.

 

[DJMirror]

After watching Niko vs JesiahTEG


Niko got smooth *** movement on YS

 

[Metal Reeper]

Saw Zoso playin Jman at Apex, Zoso is really good, anyway.

RIM - ZoSo (Fox) vs Tichinde925 (Marth) - 2
You keep Dance Blading, I think your trying to reset fox (Stop him from moving for a second) but it's just not working on him. Instead of DBing in air Fair instead.You also keep airdodging alot.You REALLY need to grab. The grab game is so important especially with Marth on spacies. (I never played Zoso so IDK if you can grab him, maybe thats why your not throwing out grabs.) You should dash dance a lot more. Zoso is approaching you a lot. If fox approaches in this MU Marth can really mess him up. Zoso is approaching with shine though (Whitch fox should do) so that's also probably why your not punishing him as much. If he's being aggressive, be defensive. If he's shooting lasers and being defensive then you must be aggressive.
2:06 nice DashDance grab. You Uthrow (which is good) and then you nair (Which is the mistake) you should be able to Uthrow spacies to 28-31%. (I heard they can get out earlier if they don't DI and shine, but im not sure)
2:13 you Uthrow>Fthrow That was a good choice, you always want to throw your opponent off stage when you can. Always put them in the worse possible situation. I guess it would have been better to Fthrow him the first time, becaus he could have DI'ed to the right and mayhaps have gotten away.
2:23 you get a grab but throw him towards the middle of the stage instead of off, which would have been a edgeguard opportunity.
You should be spacing a lot more, throwing out Fairs, dash dancing, making sure he is missing you. Also Fair OoS.
@ 0:34 you try and reverse dolphin slash (I think its a good move) but Zoso is at too low of a % for that to do any real knockback. Since there are also no platforms on this stage he can get to you faster. Which Zoso see's as your mistake and his opportunity he then Shine>Uthrow>Bair>Utilt>Bair's you.

That's what I see. I know Zoso is very good so some of the stuff I've mentioned may not work on him. But I hope I helped in some way, goodluck <3

@Dart - Your Marth is amazing, so fast and smart. I would say just oay attention to when your opponent is being aggressive and punish him. I only watched http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gPCJDbGYMk&feature=related (The fox match) You had an amazing 3 stock lead and he almost brought it back. I know he was shooting lasers at you, forcing you to approach, but towards the end he was just trying to do anything to bring it back. I need to take notes from you <3

 

[Niko45]

Lol vectorman. Ruby I'll do the fox at some point maybe tomorrow. Too tired right now.

In other news my vids just went up:

Vs. otg (Doc/Falco)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE2cYJH-G8Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=911QLG5Urco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWdRoDQVHAk

Any tips on playing on RC particularly appreciated.

Vs. Jesiahteg (Sheik)

Set 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PCnp0yq_eg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-I7M39t294
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaDwc2zIWZc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghwkbrSAuCg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHTBfZEo_J8

Set 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_iPJYlEXeg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df3e33W6H9U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgx76HSe2h4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5W8vjLms3c

I feel like I got more comfortable as we kept playing, but the sets were both really close. I really want to work on this matchup so appreciate any feedback.

Tai/Zoso/Dart/TCB/Anyone throw me some tips

 

[ChivalRuse]

Tai/Zoso/Dart/TCB/Anyone throw me some tips

You got way faster!

I might give you some advice later if I can find anything wrong with this Marth. Lol.

 

[Tichinde925]

My mindset when playing against someone who is completely better than me changes, and with that, my gameplay changes.

Its like, I should grab him, but he knows I'm going to grab him so I will get *****.

I should go attack him, but he knows this so I will get *****.

Maybe I should stand still for some mindgames and Get ***** faster.

 

[Dart!]

Tai/Zoso/Dart/TCB/Anyone throw me some tips

oh good, you quoted yourself now i have easier access to the vids.

Game one *this will be crucial in all your sets vs sheik* at 0:25 you got him off stage, here you jumped back to the ledge...instead of just falling to the ledge to force him onstage jump to ledge and right as he starts his up b air dodge back to stage or just waveland back on without grabbing ledge. This allows you a free tipper which above 70 percent will almost guarantee their stock.
When sheik grabs just force the fair, don't take upsmashes like you did at 0:43...you died at 98?! yikes. You're position is somewhat better after the fair. You're far away from her and you have more room to DI the fair.

I notice that you (if not all of us) start to throw out fsmash with a prayer sometimes without even realizing it. I know, it feels right/its a bad habit but that little mistake will cost you so dearly :/

oh good at 2:00 is a good example what i meant. you held off on grabbing the ledge, which forced him onstage. i mean yeah you grabbed ledge but in this case that worked out and you got the kill.

At 2:20-2:50 is a good section to rewatch of yourself. i saw alot of good movements attacks IASA frame usage and other techs that you employed and were doing work with.

OOoOH also the end of game one your last stock you kept moving and weren't getting touched. i liked it

 

[makoforce]

Dart in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi3JHq7UbQM around :53 what was that movement you did when you started a dash and just froze lol

 

[Dart!]

Holy **** i just came in my pants at the end of game two vs that sheik...
Niko you're a ****ing god.


EDIT: Mako i guess i don't see it. the video quality sucks :/ my friends recording setup was janktacular. if i had to guess it was a dash cancel. i do that by dashing into a crouch.

 

[Palpi]

I think jesiah was getting away with too many spot dodges

 

[makoforce]

Dart = 07-08 m2k

 

[ChivalRuse]

Dart = 07-08 m2k

I don't know about that ...

Dart's pretty **** though!

 

[Dart!]

Dart = 07-08 m2k

yeah, that's a bit far.

I'm glad you think so highly of me...but i'm still working my way up to that. I'll be at a tourney this weekend so i should have some vids for you guys to critique/enjoy/rate/what have ya.

Post more vids guys i get really excited watching fellow marths in action

 

[Palpi]

I will have videos over christmas break...everyone is back from college to get some game on!

 

[ZoSo]

Niko, I'll watch the vids later tonight.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Niko I'm not coming onto you right now

Your Marth looks kind of cool haha

Stop trying to shield grab Sheik's late aerials though

That's dumb

And bad

Reset your spacing or wait for the dodge/whatever



Uhhhh

Combo trick thingy

When you U-throw U-tilt Sheik at like super duper low percents (sub 10) and she DIs away

You like try to turn around and tilt again (F-tilt sometimes) and there's not enough stun for that so he gets away or the move is too slow and he blocks it

Just grab him

 

[Brookman]

mix up your uptilts on sheik with turn arounds. turn twice quick and fux with them. they dj then . . they just dj'd, why arent you killing them??

 

[ChivalRuse]

I wish KirbyKaze would come on to me one of these days.

 

[Niko45]

Oh my god there were like 10 million bad shield grab attempts. It's this kind of outdated habit I have that doesn't work very much anymore because sheiks I typically fight will jab after that aerial so I will voluntarily try to shield grab their jab while CCing and then immediately grab again. But he kept sidestepping or just jump fairing again after his aerials and I did a horrible job adapting to it.

In other spots I would fair his shield into a sidestep trying to bait a shield grab from him and his response to that was to...sidestep himself? I was like wtf, cause he actually gets a frame advantage out of that I think, but I couldn't understand why he would sidestep there. Fair on shield to dash away is just way better I guess.

Thanks, though KK.

@Brookman - can you elaborate a little I'm just not sure what you mean. Are you saying up throw, sheik DIs behind, turn around and wait?

 

[Wenbobular]

Haha, Marth's sidestep is so bad though
Or so I hear

Man, Niko has a crazy new avatar ....

 

[Winston]

Yeah, which is why Sheik gets frame advantage if you both sidestep.

Niko, isn't sidestep after fairing their shield strictly worse than dashdancing? What option does it beat that dashdancing away doesn't?

 

[Niko45]

Yeah, which is why Sheik gets frame advantage if you both sidestep.

Niko, isn't sidestep after fairing their shield strictly worse than dashdancing? What option does it beat that dashdancing away doesn't?

That's kind of what I learned from these sets. Sidestep works a lot though, it was just kind of odd that it didn't work on him imo. I don't think he was actively respecting my late fairs cause sidestep wouldn't really be the optimal response on his part if he was really looking for them. I think he might be one of these guys who likes to escape shield by sidestepping and then acting immediately or something. Maybe I'm not giving him enough credit but idk.

I still find sidestep really useful, especially in certain matchups, but clearly it's more limited. Marth ditto comes to mind where sidestep is still very good. In fact, just thinking about late fair dash away it seems like marth could like WD oos dtilt punish that maybe. But obviously against most characters late fair dash away is stupidly safe and gives you more punishing options if they take the bait (pivot fsmash, dash attack, grab, pivot aerial maybe).

In fact thinking about it more I think when I had more setup time I was dashing away and sidestep was more of my "oh **** I wasn't expecting to be in shield grab range" response.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I think most characters can wd oos -> some quick attack to punish dash away after late aerial. But that's a pretty risky prediction cuz it loses to like everything else marth does after a late aerial.

 

[Niko45]

Question for KK - how exactly does the sheik poof trick work? Is there anything that tips off that she's doing that that I should look for during her recovery?

Also, what is the deal with sheik actually poofing into the ledge - is there a sweetspot for that? Can I time a down tilt or fsmash to hit her out of that? Seems like if she does it at a downward angle I can't hit her.

 

[Brookman]

@ Niko: We all know that one must DI towards Marth's back to get full DI on his up tilt. If you turn around it can throw off a player's DI and force them to DI into your move, rather than away from it If they double jump out then, like I said earlier, they just used their double jump and you should now kill them.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Which poof trick is that?

 

[Niko45]

The reduced lag one.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Ohhh. Yeah, I don't know too much about that one.

 

[KirbyKaze]

she hits the corner of the edge

 

[Cactuar]

Set 1 (Marth Ditto, Marth vs Fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I6yoHPcAxU



Set 2 (Marth vs Sheik)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pts0lVOjmqk



Set 3 (Marth vs ICs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ry-k9uvXd0

 

[Palpi]

Yo cactuar... I might stop by and play some matches sometime over christmas break

 

[Metal Reeper]

Yo cactuar... I might stop by and play some matches sometime over christmas break

You should get Metal Reeper on that adventure. I heard he's really good.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Cactuar's Marth is inspiring. Its style is completely different than the modern Marth metagame, and I think thats very refreshing. His Marth does things that I hope more Marths adapt: abusing Marth's potential as a poking character with exquisite aerial control with fair and dtilt pressure.

If only a Marth could find the middle ground between the two styles, I think we'd see a revival in tournament placings.

 

[Niko45]

I feel like I learned a lot watching Cactuar play that shiek. It's really a clinic on how to play the neutral position game and with sheik on the edge.