Evaluation/Help your G&W,Video Critique Thread,Updated (11-01-09))

PentaSalia

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ugh,i apoligize for not getting to em T-T
just completely forgot about em ever since my tourney this week lmao

i actually have decent DK experience so i sorta know this MU
fought will and bum like twice.. and a few other DK's online/offline lol

im still gona do em today,even if it doesnt matter anymore D:< lulz
 

PentaSalia

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DK isn't hard. N-air OOS all day when he touches your shield. On BF you can D-tilt all day from above platforms (learn to quickly B-air cancel -> platform D-tilt) and especially as he recovers, it's hard for him to get past. Don't get baited by airdodge U-tilt, the <100% getup attack (it crosses you over on shield, so do a turnaround F-smash if you shield it), charged Smashes, and punish his airdodge conservatively with U-tilt/N-air, and his recovery with F-airs/D-airs. Let DK's limitations work for you, and you shouldn't be having trouble in this matchup. The kill will come in this matchup if you wait for it.

Oh yeah and fullhop aerials **** him.

I've played some really good DK players and the matchup in general is really only hard when you don't know what to look for. If you're new to the matchup, I don't care who you use (except maybe DDD). You WILL get *****. Once you learn to observe his gimmicks, you shouldn't be having much trouble.

His Giant Punch and Headbutt can be powershielded on reaction too.
After watching the first stock of the first match, I really didn't feel like directly critiquing him since the entire match was him basically just not playing to observe specific things and getting ***** for not really doing basic things.

Until he starts doing basic things like not getting baited into U-tilt/<100% getup attack/Smashes, does a better job of edgeguarding (it's very easy to react to DK's ledge getup imo), juggling, and doing BASIC spacing tricks that work on DK, I really don't feel like there is much to really critique besides just saying he's not approaching the matchup correctly at all.

DK is a pretty simple matchup once you realize that you can limit his game entirely to spaced F-tilts and B-airs with random D-smash and Up-B punishes. The key thing is it requires a little bit of thinking to observe his other gimmicks and stop him from using them.
Few thing i disagree with here
Yes,this is one of those match ups that you will get ***** the first time u do it because of how ridiculously early DK can kill you if you aren't careful. Though once you get the hang of it, it still isn't an easy MU, at all.

You can play this match up both aggressively for defensively IMO. Though if you're going to be aggressive,you have to know all the openings DK leave you when he attacks, as well as knowing when he can attack again so you can get away safely.

about your matches,it seemed like you did not know how to approach DK at all.
SH bairs are not really good in this match up because of how DK outranges you on the ground with ftilt and how easily DK can grab u out of it if he shields it. If you are going to hit DK with SH bair but he shields it or u know it's a bad bair,up and B as soon as it ends,chances are that you can escape from being punished(especially with downsmash) because of how slow DK's attacks are. full hop bairs or fast fall bairs are pretty good here because of how much trouble DK has punishing it. Nairs are your best friend for this match up tho since DK's only fast aerial is bair for him. Learn to predict times he will bair(which is pretty obvious imo), then punish with nair. You hardly naired at all. More Nairs like this. a good approach imo(when you're at early %) is to SH nair into his shield then up and B right away, then FF bair since he will try to punish your landing. Try not to dair when you see he is not going to jump. If the DK is dumb enough to chase you in the air,then dair lol.

That's all i can think of now...lol
so basically
try not to SH bair too much
bait him more,then punish with nairs/nairs into up and B
don't rush kills...just focus on racking up damage and the DK will feel more pressured to approach you eventually.
Don't randomly fsmash,DK rapes on the ground lol, he will punish that
and what A2 said about edgeguarding him


also a few fun facts about big characters
if you ever bair them like ---here---, turn around,jab him once quickly,then grab lol. Works all the time
 

A2ZOMG

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I never said DK was "easy". I just said he's really not a hard matchup. Yeah it's not easy because you'll get killed at like 70% for making a dumb mistake, but once you know what counts as a mistake and what can be avoided and find ways to avoid making dumb mistakes, it's really just a matter of player technical skill to win this matchup. If you play perfectly or pretty close to it, I really think this matchup swings in your favor, since it's possible to cover most of DK's blindspots in the air or on the ledge through good reaction time and solid execution, and you have the ability to punish him quite a bit harder and more safely (if you know what you're doing!).

I do think G&W wins on neutrals however, and specifically has the advantage 65/35 on BF.
 

PentaSalia

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ur right,u never said it was easy >.<
well my bad,sorry

yes i think overall G&W does win this MU,but even the smallest mistake can cost you lol



oh,oranos

always strike yoshis island and ban japes/FD/YI against DK o.o
 

Ripple

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If you play perfectly or pretty close to it, I really think this matchup swings in your favor, since it's possible to cover most of DK's blindspots in the air or on the ledge through good reaction time and solid execution,

I do think G&W wins on neutrals however, and specifically has the advantage 65/35 on BF.

the match up is no where near that on BF. thats a ratio for DK vs. wario. G&W is not harder than a CGing wario on any map.

I always love how you assume your character is playing perfectly. what about DK? I happen to believe that this match up is in DK's favor. slighly of course.


this is becoming a match up discussion :/
 
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yes i think overall G&W does win this MU,but even the smallest mistake can cost you lol



oh,oranos

always strike yoshis island and ban japes/FD/YI against DK o.o
yeah, check game 3: I'm down by ~10% first stock and get punished for a sloppy aerial and die in the 80's

and, yeah I know what to strike/ban, these were just seriouslies with random on
 

UTDZac

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UTD Zac vs RedHalberd - Friendlies

Snake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6Vrz8v4zSk (I DI-ed RIGHT at the end, wtf?)
Snake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vITlIBtyTow (I hate snakes utilt at the end, ugg)
MK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP5nmaF1ekI (judgment!)
MK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQRwl7AvdyE
MK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88sApBt3kn8
MK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk2iG16U5hg (he started playing gay)
MK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOIeo8xJkdE (still gay)

Enjoy. I just wanted to point out, there were several times in the videos where it look likes I dont punish correctly, that's cause my stupid controller won't accept button inputs. For example, I tech chase correctly and do an empty short hop instead of a SH fair.
 

PentaSalia

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in all the MK matches besides the "gay" ones,he was letting himself get caught by alot of silly stuff lol
the gay ones are more better to learn off imo :V
if MK isn't being lame,they might as well be going easy on you lol

this was really hot tho lol

cool tech chases

nice matches


edit:
did u stop trying at match 7 lmao?
that shuttle loop kill was "O.O"

D:
 

UTDZac

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Yeah I did lol. between match 5 and 6 I took a 1 hr break, I had gotten a headache. Then I came back to try and play two more. I didnt really care about the last two as much, cause i had already won 3 in a row and i wanted to play his snake more =P
 

A2ZOMG

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the match up is no where near that on BF. thats a ratio for DK vs. wario. G&W is not harder than a CGing wario on any map.

I always love how you assume your character is playing perfectly. what about DK? I happen to believe that this match up is in DK's favor. slighly of course.


this is becoming a match up discussion :/
G&W controls the **** out of DK on BF if he plays with the right technical skill. Dtilt is able to hit DK from above platforms, and is an unbreakable edgeguard on this stage. If G&W uses D-tilt from platform as an edgeguard, DK can really only edgeroll to get past it, which is punishable by platform drop -> Smash.

DK is way too easily edgetrapped and juggled for this matchup to not be in G&W's favor. ESPECIALLY on BF where DK has very few options for working around G&W's D-tilt. G&W has so many vertical spacing exploits on DK and edgeguards him so easily that if he simply just avoids getting tricked and baited into things that he could just defend against on reaction, there really isn't much DK has on G&W that puts him over G&W's superior poke and spacing game when you consider how much more exploitable DK is.

DK has a few counterpick stages that work better for him, but on neutrals and some other counterpicks, G&W wins this matchup.

I've played SRK and Dantarion's DKs and beaten them keep in mind.

I think you would also be interested to realize that Mario beats DK slightly as well.

Even if Donkey Kong plays "perfectly", he simply doesn't have nearly as many tools to stay safe. His pokes are not exactly lag free, his shield sucks, he's a huge target, and he doesn't have very good options for getting up from the ledge, escaping juggles, and avoiding edgeguards. Mario and G&W happen to have VERY good options for capitalizing on a lot of DK's limitations. Mario can outrange DK's pokes with charged F-smashes and can kill in the 120s with a Sliding Up-smash. G&W kills anywhere from 90-100 with HIS Up-smash and D-smash which both can really punish airdodges or edge getups, his F-air and D-air are good offstage KO moves, his N-air does 17 damage, and his D-throw sets up into free hits with prediction.
 

PentaSalia

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lmao at least lain didn't play around with me like that o_o

wow,err general IC advice, you should have platform camped more.
They'll most likely try to uair you out of it as you know,just shield but most likely they'll go for another right after, so wait for that then up and B.
 

moyshe

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lmao at least lain didn't play around with me like that o_o

wow,err general IC advice, you should have platform camped more.
They'll most likely try to uair you out of it as you know,just shield but most likely they'll go for another right after, so wait for that then up and B.
yeah I know. But I mean its lain.
 

PentaSalia

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that's why i said general IC :p

but i was pretty even with lain at first just doing that but of course you lose your flow once that first stock is lost :p lol
 

PentaSalia

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i saw the marth one earlier and i was like wtf lmao

whyd you lose man:(,this marth was so uber aggro lol, Which is why most of your stuff worked.
after you got spiked,you became impatient/aggresive
Marths aggressiveness>your aggressiveness :p,tho you could have made it back if you had jumped first...then recovered.


btw if you ever find urself caught in his stupid fair juggling or you feel he's driving you in a corner,just up and B, don't do this lol
same goes if he forward throws you, don;t ever go towards him,try to dodge right away and go back,or just up and B.

Plus if he ever sends u offstage, fastfall below,marth isn't going to chase you there lol

overall,you had this, you just lost your flow D:

also you need to uair more whenever marth is above you
 

izzy24

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i saw the marth one earlier and i was like wtf lmao

whyd you lose man:(,this marth was so uber aggro lol, Which is why most of your stuff worked.
after you got spiked,you became impatient/aggresive
Marths aggressiveness>your aggressiveness :p,tho you could have made it back if you had jumped first...then recovered.


btw if you ever find urself caught in his stupid fair juggling or you feel he's driving you in a corner,just up and B, don't do this lol
same goes if he forward throws you, don;t ever go towards him,try to dodge right away and go back,or just up and B.

Plus if he ever sends u offstage, fastfall below,marth isn't going to chase you there lol

overall,you had this, you just lost your flow D:

also you need to uair more whenever marth is above you

THIS pretty much, u were doing an amazing job spacing him at the beginning. The icies match was also the same, u had the spacing but some of the mistakes also came from not spacing stuff right (didnt like that u try to dash attack them its a very easy move to grab) and the platform thing as well. The falco one was just u being too agressive maybe, i think crouching + dtilt works best for the MU (since u were getting hit by the lazers almost everytime) i pretty sure if u fullhop a nair and their are shielding, u can footstool them before they can punish u. In all i think is just working on being patient even while losing, and i know u can space well. Hope that helps
 

Splice

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Falco MU was the one you need to work on the most. The Falco played pretty badly in that match. :(
I'll watch it again might edit this post and tell you some of the things that made you lose.

I like how all the matches were on Smashville, kudos ;)
 

moyshe

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Well that falco is really good. I play him all the time so he knows how
to beat me with out trying his best. That falco beat noj btw. But I mean oi think people keep forgetting those icies were lain. But thanks for all the feedback
 

kewl

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Something I saw pretty quickly soviet, needs more full hop aerials.
They reduce lag in your aerials, plus you can do fair or bair, and quickly use your double jump for another one, or a nair. Same goes for a SH Nair, once you do the Nair, you can use your double jump for any other aerial. This works alot for the ICs MU since you got grabbed on the lag on a SH Fair. Oh and use more UP-B. It's a quick get out of jail card. Lol.

To me you played hella carelessly vs lain. Play more gay. lololol.
And duck the falco's lasers more please.
 

PentaSalia

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nobodys going to comment?:(

LMAO at that eruption kill
if you haven't seen it before,then you're bound to get caught by it the first time :V

Well..i thought he was being too careful in game 3
doom left himself open alot of times for SH bairs, tho i think maybe u were hesitant cuz of how he DI'd out of your other bair attempts.. you should have gone for it anyway,cuz even he does DI SH bairs,all his aerials are pretty slow,so it doesn't really matter lol.

i think the outcome of this game would have been totally different if you had uthrowed him into those 2 fireballs last stock lol;/


also never approach ike when his back is facing youV_V lulz
 

UTDZac

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Crap, those vids got recorded... I didn't know. If I had known that they would be posted everywhere on the internet I wouldn't have been goofing off so much.

Also, the Ike matchup is annoying if you don't play gay. Just pretend Ike is Snake and you'll do better.
 

PentaSalia

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then u lost cuz u werent taking him seriously? <_<
thats mean lol


and no,you can be aggressive against ike too,he really only has fair to keep G&W away.
playing super camp against ike isnt necessary :V



you just have to know how to get passed his fair spacing and learn to spot his openings V_V
 

UTDZac

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1) I only entered singles so I could play in pools (thats where i get like half my judgments).
2) I wanted to play Ally in pools, which I did, and even won because of a judgment.
3) The winner of me vs Doom played Dojo. Even if I had won I would have let Dojo move on. I didn't come for competitive singles, I came to have fun. I honestly did not care a bit about singles.
4) Mr Dooms SDI is good.
 

PentaSalia

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haha,uair **** V_V
not as good as the double judgement u did a while ago tho lolz

u should link your team matches and G&W dittos you did too D:

good shet


20 dollah MM me D:<


double edit:

lmaaoo i thought u were the G&W with the 8bit tag all this time
nuuuu :ohwell:
 

izzy24

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haha,uair **** V_V
not as good as the double judgement u did a while ago tho lolz

u should link your team matches and G&W dittos you did too D:

good shet


20 dollah MM me D:<


double edit:

lmaaoo i thought u were the G&W with the 8bit tag all this time
nuuuu :ohwell:
U mean an old gaw who uses 8bit lol that was my friends gametag a while ago, is it the same?
 

Metmetm3t

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PentaSalia

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PentaSalia

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lolx_x
sorry i meant to get em yesterday
today when i get home,promise T-T
lulz

look back at this post
also remember what i told you about falco cinnanmonny:o
camp camp camp
 

PentaSalia

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your bair spam was pretty bad tbh:(
and pplzzzzz stop approaching falco at 0%
first rule of fighting falco, nneeevver approach falco when you're at 0%.
Srly,everytime you approached,you would get chain grabbed:(
pretty much do what you did -->here<-- . Platform camp until you're 30-40% then you can start approaching. You're best bet is to always approach from the platforms,you can try SH bairs or nairs but you have to know how to space them well or he can easily upsmash you/fsmash or grab you if you miss. If you're going to do this,be ready to dtilt if he tries to approach. Up and B if you feel unsafe. Approach with bairs from the platforms. Hit him with bair enough that you can retreat with up and B if he shields the whole thing(spacing bair is something i can't explain,you just have to get better at judging it) If you hit him with bair from above,you can easily follow up with a nair and juggle more. Falco can't really do anything about G&Ws bair if spaced well.(if he continues to utilt or uair you from beneath ,time it, and drop down and bair/nair and follow up.). Also whenever you send him offstage,don't chase him ,just wait on stage and try to predict his side B so you can punish his recovery. AND if he sends you offstage,don't rush back onstage or he'll try to get you with that baited fsmash trash lol. Just camp on the ledge a bit.

So basically
camp more
bucket the lasers if he's spamming it
learn to space bair better
always approach from the platforms
don't go after him offstage.

Don't have much expierence with pikachu but i know you shouldn't go FD for your first stage ever. Anyway you can't let pikachu approach you that easily, you have to make him think twice about approaching. Bair spam works great against pikachu(well im pretty sure it does). If he tries to go in the air,just nair spam,sound simple:p. Yes but of course you'll need to get better at reading your opponent. Also whenever pikachu is trying to approach u from above,just up and B :/.same for rolldodging, up and B if u you feel unsafe,its 100% better than roll dodging lol. I had alot more to say about this,till i saw second game xD where you did alot better. Also another bad habit i see some G&W players do is that they dodge back into stage right after they're hit. IF you're sent offstage it is probably to latch on to that ledge instead of trying to make it back on stage. Be patient,camp a bit lol.

Also vs the MK,don't be scared of shuttleloop lol;/
you did well but if u ever find urself facing a shuttleloop happy MK,they'll be pretty obvious with their shuttleloops lol. Learn to read em then punish with uair. Or if you feel it's too much of a risk,just fast fall,don't try going around him.

Vs Raz

http://www.justin.tv/clip/572908857852e8b0
http://www.justin.tv/clip/72acc22d92e7f824

Vs Tyrant

http://www.justin.tv/clip/30f97b4cb0e8ff78 (wrong title lol)

It's my 2nd tournament... the first one I went to was last year
So yeah I'm pretty new to all of these great players... They're all good D:
well i told ya what to do in the chat already xD
camp more!

So here's me vs the best DK in europe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffwuqUokiZk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4YpClMMvEw

BTW every single one of those judgement's are supposed to be upb's. >.< Also the sd was just bleh.
i'll get to this later or tomorrow T-T;;
 
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