[European Ruleset] Dedede's infinite

[Marc]

This poll is about Dedede's standing infinite and small step infinite (technically not an infinite because you can run out of stage at some point). They only work on a few characters. This applies to matchups against Mario, Luigi, Donkey Kong, Bowser and Samus.

 

[Flayl]

I'm not going to vote, but you can smallstep chaingrab Bowser and infinite him on the ledge -> it's a true infinite.

 

[K@0S]

Imo, ban both. We especially in Europe have a lot of low tier mainers (or at least, non top tier mainers) who still attend tourneys and standing infinites simply destroy their character. DDD still has positive match-ups against those he can infinite, so it doesn't affect him that much.

However the best counter-argument would be that some characters can also destroy them with "legit" tactics which would be allowed. Then again, it's nowhere near what DDD can do. Even if you never played him, you can simply change your control config, put the C-stick to "grab" and it's a free win. The small step is even easier.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Don't ban it. Does it break the game, make it unplayable or overcentralize the metagame?

This shouldn't even be discussed.

PS: This is coming from a player whose character gets infinited on the ledge

 

[Tero.]

Don't ban it. Does it break the game, make it unplayable or overcentralize the metagame?

This shouldn't even be discussed.

PS: This is coming from a player whose character gets infinited on the ledge

10 times this.
Without PS tho.

 

[Flayl]

Also where do you draw the line between infinites and high % locks/chaingrabs?

See Wario's chaingrab on DK, Pikachu's chaingrab on Fox, Shiek's FTilt etc.

 

[K@0S]

Don't ban it. Does it break the game, make it unplayable or overcentralize the metagame?

It does, for some players. Achoral for France as an example would never travel to a tourney without those rules banned, and it's totally understandable. Marth, grab, shield+spam A, gg. Those kind of infinites are game breaking, and DDD has the best grab in the game. "Don't get grabbed" is hardly applicable.

As I said, CP DDD, put the C-stick to grab and you have won a 100-0 match-up with a character you never used, and without even having practiced the infinite.

This shouldn't even be discussed.:

Yet it has already been discussed a lot, and it is often banned in tourneys. Giving the opposite of the generally used rule and saying it shouldn't be discussed won't convince people.

Also where do you draw the line between infinites and high % locks/chaingrabs?

See Wario's chaingrab on DK, Pikachu's chaingrab on Fox, Shiek's FTilt etc.

Well, touché, that's imo the biggest flaw, not those presented by Gheb. Even if I really think DDD's infinites and small steps should be banned, that could be unfair if on the other hand we do nothing for those, and that's the only argument that makes me hesitate.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Achoral plays Ness. He has no business complaining about those things unless he stops using a bad character in competitive play. If he wants to win he shouldn't play Ness period.

Also, since when does the fate of an individual character matter?

 

[Bartolon]

Ness isn't bad <.<
So everyone who has a char who gets gayed by a thing may not complain they just need to use "a better char" for it?
WTF is that for nonsense xD

 

[K@0S]

Achoral plays Ness. He has no business complaining about those things unless he stops using a bad character in competitive play. If he wants to win he shouldn't play Ness period.

Also, since when does the fate of an individual character matter?

That logic is bad because you could apply it to anything.

Why banning RC ? You have no business complaning about those things unless you stop using a bad char on that stage.

I'm just giving an example (I don't even know if you are against the ban of RC or not). It really applies to anything .

Also, it's not only about winning. You are basically trying to defend the case of several 100-0 match-ups that are freewins even for a 9 years old kid that never played the game by using a couple of buttons (I'm exagerating on purpose, but you get the point). What's the single positive aspect ? You are just ruining the experience of those players and lowering the expected attendance for nothing by making a viable character unviable, because I don't think DDD mains would complain much about that rule to a point that they wouldn't come to a tourney (considering that they still have the upper hand and that those techniques are already at least softbanned..).

Finally, since when are we talking about an individual character ? Then again I was giving an example. But even if we were, what does it change ? It doesn't make it more of less competitive, and my previous point is still valid.

 

[Achoral]

Ness isn't that bad. He just sucks by his recovery and his asburd grab release animations.

So everyone who has a char who gets gayed by a thing may not complain they just need to use "a better char" for it?
WTF is that for nonsense xD

+1

Competitions show who's the most skilled among players.
Where's competition when there's a guaranteed unescapable 0 to death thanks to a button ? "Wow, what an awesome player, he can mash a button !"
They also makes great tournament matches to watch. Woah.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about ICs. Their infinite requires skill, and their grab range is awful.

The only annoying remaining "gay" things are Pikachu's CG & Sheik's Ftilt and etc, as they're not really infinites...

Also, I main Carl on Blazblue, so I know what kind of stuff I'm talking about.

(Arcanine owns)

 

[K@0S]

Ness being bad or not isn't the subject. Let's assume he could be totally viable without that 100-0 by DDD. The problem remains the same.

And actually, that's DK's case. He gets ***** by Wario and DDD's standing grabs, which imo should be banned (as any standing infinite except for the ICs). The generic rule ban those so at the moment it's okay I guess.

Achoral, the reason ICs CG shouldn't he banned is that it would drastically change their metagame in a bad way for them, which would be terribly unfair for IC mainers, considering they aren't dominating even with it allowed, and some even MU would become awful for them; which isn't the case of DDD or Wario at all.

 

[TreK]

Looks like the thread should be renamed '[European Ruleset] Infinites'.

Anyway, as far as I know, except ICs, all infiniting characters already have the advantage over the character they infinite without it. There's really no need to keep them.

 

[-Jumpman-]

It makes 3 or something characters unviable against DDD, no big deal. Ban neither.

 

[Marcbri]

ban it, I don't really find it fair, I don't have time to explain atm but basically what kaos said.

anyways if it isn't banned I will do it lol, why risking losing when I can win with 0 effort D:

 

[BigLord]

and small step infinite (technically not an infinite because you can run out of stage at some point).

I'm not going to vote, but it is possible NOT to run out of stage... don't forget stages like Mushroomy Kingdom, some parts of Delfino... It's a guaranteed kill for D3.

So you should have that in mind while voting (I hate getting killed that way, if you can't tell).

 

[King Funk]

Ban them both. They shut down any tournament chances to people who main the affected characters. For for those who think those chances were already low, please notice the difference between "low" and "none". It's large. If people want to main low-tier characters, let them be, and give them the opportunity to represent them. With those infinites allowed, virtually anyone can pick D3 and ruin their existence.

The infinites represent a disease in the metagame.

 

[Marc]

FYI: We will vote on (pretty much) all infinites individually, because of how gray this area is.

Both of D3's infinites are banned in the Netherlands and there was little to no opposition when the rule was formulated.

 

[teluoborg]

IMO we should rather ban D3's Bair, cause it makes more characters unviable than the infinite.

More seriously, if the ban is voted what rule will be set to prevent it ? And more importantly to prevent things like "I wasn't infiniting, I was just doing it 53 times in a row." ?

 

[Marc]

You can't regrab from standing position or after a small walk, obviously. It's easy to tell them apart from the regular chaingrab.

After thinking about it some more, I don't think Ice Climbers need a vote per se. Are there other infinites (similar to this) that would warrant one?

 

[-Jumpman-]

IMO we should rather ban D3's Bair, cause it makes more characters unviable than the infinite.

More seriously, if the ban is voted what rule will be set to prevent it ? And more importantly to prevent things like "I wasn't infiniting, I was just doing it 53 times in a row." ?

Every character is viable.

 

[l!nk_aut]

Don't ban it. Does it break the game, make it unplayable or overcentralize the metagame?

This shouldn't even be discussed.

PS: This is coming from a player whose character gets infinited on the ledge

this

Achoral plays Ness. He has no business complaining about those things unless he stops using a bad character in competitive play. If he wants to win he shouldn't play Ness period.

Also, since when does the fate of an individual character matter?

this

It makes 3 or something characters unviable against DDD, no big deal. Ban neither.

and this

some characters are lowtiers because they simply aren't as good as other characters. if the player is willing to win he will just switch characters i mean srsly.


i main ic plz ban all counterpick stages cause ic's are bad on them and i loose k thx.

Spoiler

please ban neither

 

[Marc]

Actually, we banned most stages ICs are bad on.

 

[nopa]

Those who have a main who is vulnerable to DDDs chaingrab can use a second char to counter him if they want to. Banning DDDs chaingrab is exagerated.

 

[Calzum!]

make it unplayable?

Well yeah it kind of does if your best char, the only none your Comfortable with gets infinated by DeDeDe its pretty much an un-winable match up

D3 Vs DK
Boom DK Dead

ban standing, SmallStep is fine you run out of Room on teh stage

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Well yeah it kind of does if your best char, the only none your Comfortable with gets infinated by DeDeDe its pretty much an un-winable match up

D3 Vs DK
Boom DK Dead

ban standing, SmallStep is fine you run out of Room on teh stage

Then stop playing those worthless piece of crap characters.

 

[K@0S]

So the main (sole?) argument of the pro-infinites is "who cares" =\

@nopa : Let me remind you the counterpick system :
- The looser picks a stage
- The winner picks his char
- The looser picks his char
So basically, if you win, you are almost obliged to pick your secondary, even if your opponent didn't intend to CP DDD (or any freewin CP because of an infinite).

 

[l!nk_aut]

srsly. what idiot would be so stupid to pick DK even if he knows that the opponent picks DDD i mean seriously. and its obvious that you need a cp/2nd as dk (everyone should be aware of the weaknesses of the own main and how to get around them. and every dk main should know that he needs a second at least against DDD)

if you would use the cp system wisely you would pick a stage where ddd is not comfortable to make him switch chars (you can go dk then) or he stays and you pick your second (who should do good against DDD cause he is at a disadvantage).

i don't get your arguments. its fine how it is and the cp system works fine.
most players cover their 40:60 - 30:70 matchups with a second or at least have a plan-b. i don't get it why dk-mains should not use a second for ONE really bad matchup

 

[K@0S]

Read every posts before posting next time, thanks. I already stated how you don't even need to learn DDD to get the freewin, and who cares about the stage. It's still a freewin.

I didn't say the cp system wasn't fine, but in that case it makes the "pick a secondary if the opponent picks DDD" argument useless. It would make them pick their secondary everytime they win, whatever the opponent plans to do.

 

[Calzum!]

Then stop playing those worthless piece of crap characters.

B Tier is crap now??!?!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

In a competitive scene it is.

 

[K@0S]

Say this to Leon~

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The same Leon who uses an A-Tier character as his 2nd?

 

[K@0S]

Yes, then ..? What has this to do with B-tier being a crap tier ? Nothing. Leon simply swaps between Marth and Peach when he doesn't feel comfortable against a particular opponent. That doesn't make Peach a crap character, and she isn't even B-tier.

Anyway, that's not the point. I'd like you to list the positive aspects of keeping those infinites allowed, then let's compare those with the negative ones~

 

[King Funk]

Then stop playing those worthless piece of crap characters.

DK is totally crap. Totally agreed.

/sarcasm

K@os is right, there is absolutely nothing to be gained from keeping those infinites allowed. We'll keep contributing to unbalancing the game when in fact most people want the contrary.

 

[C.R.Z]

ban both, dont even try and defend it.everything has been said already

 

[Lord Chair]

Enough has been said, you can whine about such infinites not being over centralized and other nonsense, but if we can make this game just that much more playable I see no reason not to do it (inb4 stupid comparisons, bugger off).

There's no need to be a **** towards so-called 'unviable' characters.

Spoiler

No really, there isn't.

I haven't read through the entire thread but I see the topic floating offtopic towards Leon's character choices and whatnot, keep the irrelevances for what they are and stick to the actual subject, thanks in advance.

 

[Marc]

I've decided to go with banning both. While it is actively intervening with the metagame, I think it is warranted, considering the threat of anyone being able to pick Dedede (at the very least for a counterpick) is very detrimental to the metagame of the duped characters. This isn't on a level where they can just get better at the matchup anymore.

 

[Smasher89]

Ban neither, it´s a reason to actually use D3 in tournaments, and forces players to learn the game...

 

[Marcbri]

Ban neither, it´s a reason to actually use D3 in tournaments, and forces players to learn the game...

this doesn't make sense at all. its a reason to play D3? if you need an infinite like this one to beat a player odds are you shouldn't really be able to. forces players to learn the game? I guess they learn how to do the infinite chaingrab. besides that you have to learn some less characters since they aren't viable at all with this.

DDD isn't even hurted for banning this infinite, there's no reason to not ban it besides the one: I suck and I rather play D3 vs some chars so I don't have to learn these match-ups ( ''forces players to learn the game'' lol )