[European Ruleset] #7 : Pictochat

[Utto]

#7: Pictochat

Again, the question is simple: should Pictochat be a counterpick stage or a banned stage? Instructions:

1. Vote only if you are sure of your vote.
2. Try to explain your vote as clearly as possible in this thread.

Poll will remain open for two weeks.

 

[King Funk]

Some parts are acceptable, some are just plain horrible and ban-worthy. And as we know, hacking can solve this and remove all the "drawings" that ruin the stage. But we can't convince everyone to hack their games just for a stupid stage.

So yeah, ban that stage.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Counterpick. While I do agree that some parts are kinda gay, they're never unavoidable. If you get targeted by the laser on halberd there's always some play changes around it. Well, now you just have the same sometimes. Some parts of this stage belittle a character, other buff it, which makes it a balanced counterpick. Some characters have a great grab game here which makes them slightly advantaged, but just 'don't get grabbed', just like against ICs.

I think this is a typical 'just adjust' example. So what if there's one more thing to look at, I never heard anyone complain about the Halberd claw, while it's certainly more subtle. The hitbox objects always take a while to get a hitbox. If you get hit on those zones where it's extreme, you should just position better.

I think people see the following 4 as ban-worthy:
1. Spikes
Spikes do hit the opponent downwards, if you DI into the right part of the spikes (as long as you don't hit the back), ofc, you will take a hit if you position yourself in a wrong way against characters with moves that are quick and send you to the spikes.
This thing COUNTERS CAMPERS as they are often forced to move from the edge of the stage.
2. The ramp/skateboard/wagon
The wagon is indeed an interesting part of the stage, but not ban-worthy at all. It's moving which makes it cover a considerate amount of the stage, however because it is moving this also means that it can't be everywhere all the time. Besides, standing on it is also possible, which makes spacing that much more interesting.
3. The plant
The plant is small, and this thing BOOSTS CAMPERS. See how this stage works for both sides?
It hits straight up, and has nasty knockback. Though it's hard to get hit into it if you play it right.
4. Rockets
THIS is the reason people want this stage gone. And I can't really defend this. The rockets take a large part of the stage, but in the other hand they're easily shielded, or avoided if you just grab the ledge. Yes it's a minus, but so is PS1's ledge, still it's often considered a neutral/starter.

Honorable mentions:
1. Fire
The fire does MINIMAL damage (1-2 per hit, 2 hits per fire if you can DI), and your opponent CAN'T FOLLOW UP after it. I think getting hit by it often allows you to quickly escape, which means that it can (like this WHOLE STAGE) go 2 ways.
2. Fence
The fence breaks up a battle, true. So it encourages camping, right? False. If you are in a cage with someone else the battle is SO INTERESTING, you must watch out for the spikes but you don't have much room to space, this is both advantageous and disadvantageous for someone like Marth. Definitely not a ban argument.
3. Wind
The wind is just something you can work around. It's definitely irritating but it's not an advantage for anyone. might extent jab locks, but i.e. PS1 might too.
4. Trampoline
I don't really get the fuss here. Some characters have a good dair, so what? Don't jump after them.
5. The line
Ok, this is a hard cookie to crack. Again it both promotes and demotes camping, depending on where you and your opponent are. It can lead to some wall infinites, but they aren't infinite because it goes away again (PS1, frigate)

Overall I think this is less of a gay stage then i.e. Castle siege (lol jablock 0-death, deal with it), but it supports ALL SIDES, making it an excellent CP (i.e. CS has statues to block camping, but it's very large so once the statues are gone...)
It is on par with PS1 (seriously that **** is camp mania or real close combat) and FO in gayness, probably slightly less then brinstar.

PS transitions can be found here
http://www.serebii.net/ssbb/stages/pictochat.shtml

 

[Marcbri]

I voted cp, I really don't see how any char can cp here and get an autowin or how the hazards can change the course of the match more than in frigate for example

 

[sandwhale]

i voted ban.

@xonar: the fact that the hazards affect both players or different fighting styles equally is of no importance. the problem is it creates randomness making the skill gap between players less meaningful.

lol at only falco mains posting.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

i voted ban.

@xonar: the fact that the hazards affect both players or different fighting styles equally is of no importance. the problem is it creates randomness making the skill gap between players less meaningful.

lol at only falco mains posting.

I do think it does not close the skill gap. One player can use the stage as much as the other, seeing as it can be advantageous for both characters. I don't think getting hit by brinstars acid then getting chainspiked for 50% is quite balanced, do you? No, but still it's in the game. Besides, an argument for brinstar is that it is a 'vital counterpick for some characters', which pictochat is too

 

[-Jumpman-]

PLease vote ban, bs stage with hazards.

 

[Lord Chair]

Besides, an argument for brinstar is that it is a 'vital counterpick for some characters', which pictochat is too

Wut?

Voted CP, really sometimes **** happens and you get killed with no one to blame. Same counts for Frigate/Brinstar/Norfair (pointing at the Germans)/quite a few other stages.

Mostly, however, people just die because they don't know how the stage works or anything. It's like Ganonplanking with Gerudo while Frigate is flipping, you don't really do that do you? Same counts for getting wall-infinited or... pretty much just wall-infinited (really, is there anything else?) on Pictochat.

All other parts of the stage are completely neutral, the only thing I can think of is characters with a better grab range having a better time on this stage overall (not going in-depth on that), but that's just what a CP is supposed to do: give specific characters specific advantages. Pictochat would make the European a lot more interesting.

On a side note, it's not a terribly good stage for MK or Snake, characters who currently have a great time with the current European stagelist.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

BTW, it's not in the league that it HAS to be banned to make a MU easier (i.e. RC against mk, JJ against falco, brinstar against TL/kirby etc)

 

[Laem]

voted cp 'cause its a pretty fun stage xD

 

[Red Arremer]

PLease vote ban, bs stage with hazards.

Yea, let's ban every stage with hazards.
Stages like Pokemon Stadium (1), Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Frigate Orpheon or Halberd. Maybe even Smashville, the small platform moves, that can be a hazard too!

Let's just play on Battlefield, Final Destination, Hanenbow and Shadow Moses Island, they're completely static and only change a little bit with player interaction, so it's all good.

Spoiler

Just to clarify, I'm not for allowing Hanenbow or Shadow Moses, respectively banning all those stages - I just wanted to express that hazards - to some extent - are no reason to ban a stage.

 

[El_Bardo]

I voted CP, i rather preffer this than RC, LM, Norfair,etc..., there is some changes unfairs, but just need to camp like in Poke Stadium somethimes while you wait for the change,

 

[Greward]

i will wait.. but i see no good reasons for banning it. some help plz?

 

[Red Arremer]

To add in on the discussion:
I think it's a CP stage. It's basically Pokemon Stadium 1, just with more hazards, with some of them a bit more irritating, but they affect the gameplay less than Pokemon Stadium 2's.

There's only a handful of hazards where I'm a bit concerned, like the rocket or... the rocket, but otherwise, I honestly see absolutely no problem with this stage.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Why are you using PS2 as an argument? PS2 has never been a legal stage. Not only do the hazards deal damage, they also could hinder the players and sometimes prevent kills. Terrible stage.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Well, PS2 is included on the German stage list, and while I hate to include PS2 in this debate, we can't ignore other countries.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Yea, let's ban every stage with hazards.
Stages like Pokemon Stadium (1), Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Frigate Orpheon or Halberd. Maybe even Smashville, the small platform moves, that can be a hazard too!

Let's just play on Battlefield, Final Destination, Hanenbow and Shadow Moses Island, they're completely static and only change a little bit with player interaction, so it's all good.

Spoiler

Just to clarify, I'm not for allowing Hanenbow or Shadow Moses, respectively banning all those stages - I just wanted to express that hazards - to some extent - are no reason to ban a stage.

My argument actually was that it's a bs stage with hazards, not the hazards themselves. Don't jump to conclusions. Your absurd sarcastic posts make you look ignorant because of this.

Like I said, this stage is terrible for half the time. Spikes on the side of the stage prevent one from getting kills and deal damage. Other spikes, fire, rockets etc. also deal damage. Every throw can lead to an unfair advantage for the opponent. And opposed to stages like Halberd, this stage has more damaging hazards that are out longer and cannot be DId out of.

Another argument is the constant static constructions on the stage. They make the stage unplayable and more than often cause situations in which a player is randomly put in a disadvantageous situation.

This is less the case in the stages you mentioned. Pokemon Stadium (1), Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Frigate Orpheon or Halberd do not have hazards that actually cause a bad situation for yourself, they only cause benificial situations for the opponent. This is the biggest difference.

Also, Pictochat has a wide variaty of hazards. Most stages have a small amount of hazards. The hazards on pictochat are unpredictable and very hard to adapt to. Could add some more stuff here.

We have got to be consistent in our judgement. If we cannot accept RC (which is the consensus), then we cannot accept this stage for the previously mentioned reasons. If you look at the RC thread, you will find less arguments in favor of banning the stage. So the only option is banning this stage.

Edit: The germans have no tourney experience, no need to add them.

 

[Marc]

I just wanted to express that hazards - to some extent - are no reason to ban a stage.

Indeed, to some extent.

 

[Staco]

Well, PS2 is included on the German stage list, and while I hate to include PS2 in this debate, we can't ignore other countries.

CiB had its own ruleset, I dont think that we used any standard ruleset in germany (didnt needed it, because of the lack of tourneys).
But we will get one soon.


I think this stage should get banned.
There are a lot of stage hazards, some stupid wind transformation, some unplayable forms (pyramid, the transformation with a lot of platforms, the tranformation which splits the stage into two parts)

 

[Smasher89]

I don´t really like this stage, but it might be that my only tournamentexperience on it was a snakeditto where the wind forced me to start recovering (which is a bad thing for snake) and I think I lost the stock.

The hazards have a time scheme (I don´t remember the exact time now) so every transformation is out for the same time, and they wont repeat until the other 9 forms has been up I think.

I won´t vote since I´m not convinced for a ban/allow , but it would clearly benefit me if it were banned (probably a kinda bad ICstage)

 

[Ayoub]

Banned, gay stage.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Like I said, this stage is terrible for half the time. Spikes on the side of the stage prevent one from getting kills and deal damage. Other spikes, fire, rockets etc. also deal damage. Every throw can lead to an unfair advantage for the opponent. And opposed to stages like Halberd, this stage has more damaging hazards that are out longer and cannot be DId out of.
The spikes on the side might actually score a kill if you DI like a scrub. Still there's the upwards option. There are other stages (i.e. brinstar) with limited killing because of the blast zones, which is a static problem rather then spikes. Don't get grabbed at the more punishing parts

Another argument is the constant static constructions on the stage. They make the stage unplayable and more than often cause situations in which a player is randomly put in a disadvantageous situation.
Like in FO when the stage turns and puts you in a bad position while it does not do such thing to the opponent?

This is less the case in the stages you mentioned. Pokemon Stadium (1), Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Frigate Orpheon or Halberd do not have hazards that actually cause a bad situation for yourself, they only cause benificial situations for the opponent. This is the biggest difference.
Halberd might just make a bad situation for yourself. Imagine being busy recovering and your opponent places the laser at the ledge, what can you do now?

Also, Pictochat has a wide variaty of hazards. Most stages have a small amount of hazards. The hazards on pictochat are unpredictable and very hard to adapt to. Could add some more stuff here.
Unpredictable, yes. just like the transformations on ps1, right? Hard to adapt too is something that can be solved with experience.

We have got to be consistent in our judgement. If we cannot accept RC (which is the consensus), then we cannot accept this stage for the previously mentioned reasons. If you look at the RC thread, you will find less arguments in favor of banning the stage. So the only option is banning this stage.
Who says that PC is worse then RC? You do. Point made.

Edit: The germans have no tourney experience, no need to add them.
lolololol

Staco get back to your wifi >: (

 

[cenel]

Are you guys out of your mind? This stage has waay to many hazards to be a cp to begin with. This stage becomming a cp would make brawl look even more like a joke than it already is lulz. I'd say ban this stage. Ban rainbow cruise. Ban all these stupid stages that make the gap bigger between MK and the other characters. I'd even go as far to ban frigate orpheon, norfair and brinstar. Maybe some other stages as well.

 

[-Jumpman-]

The spikes on the side might actually score a kill if you DI like a scrub. Still there's the upwards option. There are other stages (i.e. brinstar) with limited killing because of the blast zones, which is a static problem rather then spikes. Don't get grabbed at the more punishing parts

Unfair advantage.

Like in FO when the stage turns and puts you in a bad position while it does not do such thing to the opponent?

This isn't random.

Halberd might just make a bad situation for yourself. Imagine being busy recovering and your opponent places the laser at the ledge, what can you do now?

Go to the ledge. If you get hit, SDI out. I have to admit I'm not sure about Halberd being a CP.

Unpredictable, yes. just like the transformations on ps1, right? Hard to adapt too is something that can be solved with experience.

The PS changes are slow, easily adapted to and don't drastically change the stage so that you receive damage or get trapped.

Who says that PC is worse then RC? You do. Point made.

No, my argument was the number of arguments against the stage. Not PC vs RC.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Unfair advantage.

Nope. First off, it can be used in 2 ways (damage racking and killing). If you are stupid enough to get grabbed by a character who positioned you and has a throw that can get you offstage (so you messed up thrice), you are so bad with the stage that you deserve to get killed.

This isn't random.

It IS random, it however gives a warning. Still with the stage itself flipping your position might appear pretty random, if not random it is imbalanced, to say the least.

Go to the ledge. If you get hit, SDI out. I have to admit I'm not sure about Halberd being a CP.

SDI out, to where? All across the beam? Yeah, good luck with that, the thing can kill ridiculously early, if you enter the laser just a BIT too late, you're fuuucked.

The PS changes are slow, easily adapted to and don't drastically change the stage so that you receive damage or get trapped.

Say the rock at rock part? the tree at fire part? the windmill at the water part? they all induce camping.

No, my argument was the number of arguments against the stage. Not PC vs RC.

still only you saying that those stages are worse then PC. get experience with the stage people : (

 

[-Jumpman-]

I'm sorry, I don't think this is worth replying to.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Looks like a forfeit to me. Even though we're currently behind on votes I still have a whole post on the front page unanswered. Does voting 'ban' while the argument is still open count as a vote, Utto?

 

[-Jumpman-]

Your arguments are poor, I honestly don't care about random discussion with someone who is uncapable of using decent arguments.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Your arguments are poor, I honestly don't care about random discussion with someone who is uncapable of using decent arguments.

Your arguments are poor, I honestly don't care about random discussion with someone who is uncapable of using decent arguments.

 

[NaZe]

Cp. This stage has some great music, to get along with his F*cking hazards, and it´s hella funny to play with. The rockets? Nevermind, throw the opponent to them if you can, and laugh hard, at how they died at ridiculous %.

 

[Phyr]

I think we should try it as a CP.

Con ban reasons:

-Fair and straigh stage, similar to FD in geometry
-The KOs lines are very far away, so there is not possibility for throw gimps or similars
-The special events are previsible and they have a harmless time during the animation, so they are easily avoided
-There is only one event who can kill you, and it is hard to be hited by it (piranha plant, in the center of the stage, static, not so huge area). Also the missiles can kill you at higher percentages.
-The events make you adapt to the situation, so it can promote camping but it can also prevent camping depending of the situation
-Mk can't Air plank, maybe?



Pro ban reasons:

- Some events give a great space and tactical advantage (hello spike and wallss...), others give agood damage from a throw or any attack that sends them to the picture (for example the missiles or the flames)
- Piranha plant and missiles can kill you, even if they are "easy" to avoid (missiles hitbox is just as the picture is, not bigger, and they are very slow).
-Maybe the anoying music?

I think all the special events in the stage can be seen with a bit of prevision and they give a lot of tactical game into this CP. I think we should give it a try.

 

[Blad01]

I find some of the changes annoying, and they can be decisive in a game...

But I still voted "Counterpick". I wish there was a "Should be tried as a counterpick" option though

I will try on my own, since my thoughts are not really clear on that stage for the moment.

 

[Tero.]

Ban this ****.

Well, PS2 is included on the German stage list, and while I hate to include PS2 in this debate, we can't ignore other countries.

No, it's not.

Edit: I wish those votings weren't open to the public, everyone and his grandmother can vote, regardless of knowledge or skill.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Ban this ****.

Nice argument for your side.

 

[Lord Chair]

Ban this ****.



No, it's not.

Edit: I wish those votings weren't open to the public, everyone and his grandmother can vote, regardless of knowledge or skill.

Yeah, your knowledge about this stage is clearly represented in this stage as well. Really, if it weren't for you where would this discussion have led us?

Honestly, valid arguments have been given so far. Stop whining about grandmothers and their grandchildren messing around on forums so long as their input is actually decent, as opposed to yours.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Input is unneeded in this case. It's actually the ******* that can vote.

Seriously, I will do anything to make this banned. Let's allow Hyrule Temple because it allows for tacttical stuff :D

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Input is unneeded in this case. It's actually the ******* that can vote.

Seriously, I will do anything to make this banned. Let's allow Hyrule Temple because it allows for tacttical stuff :D

Yeah man, let's do that.

 

[Lord Chair]

Input is unneeded in this case. It's actually the ******* that can vote.

Seriously, I will do anything to make this banned. Let's allow Hyrule Temple because it allows for tacttical stuff :D

Temple ftw.

Still, no valid comparison. Also, how are you supposed to sort out a stage list without decent input? Just put all European Brawl Backroom members in a pile? How many people are we speaking of then?

 

[-Jumpman-]

Well then give me input. Instead of just voting.

 

[Red Arremer]

The problem I see is that everyone wants to ban everything that's "gay", because they think it could (!) disrupt the gameplay.

I think PictoChat is worth trying because it might be an interesting (although probably rare) counterpick stage in our arsenal. Conservative stagelists are limiting, and without testing, we will never know if a stage is valid as CP or not.

If PictoChat - after several examples - is proven to be "gay" or breaking the game, not only possibly by theorycraft, we can talk about banning it.

So far, I can't remember anyone getting his butt taken viciously through that stage, and I really don't see how the amount of hazards or their random choice should make the stage bannable. The hazards are definitely not hard to adapt to, and the only objectable hazard is the missile - but it's hardly different to other stage hazards like Brinstar's acid or Halberd's weaponry.