ESAM Discusses Most and Least Wanted Mechanics in Smash for Switch

As soon as a new Super Smash Bros. game was announced for the Nintendo Switch, speculation began about its mechanics, and whether it will stay closer to the formula that Super Smash Bros. Brawl established and Super Smash Bros. for Wii U further refined, if it might bring back more aspects of Super Smash Bros. Melee, or if it'll perhaps go off in a completely new direction.

Top Smash Wii U player Eric "ESAM" Lew has joined in on the conversation with a vlog about which mechanics he wants to see the most and which ones he wants to see the least in the next Super Smash Bros. title, discussing his experience with mechanics from throughout the series and his thoughts on how mechanics like dash dancing, directional air dodges and rage affect things like the neutral game, the disadvantage state and punish options.

Author's note: What mechanics are you hoping to see added in the upcoming Smash game? Which ones are you hoping will get removed or altered? Let us know in the comments.

 

I watched his video he pretty much wants the same exact game. I like sm4sh for what it is but i wouldn't mind a few more changes getting closer to a middle ground between melee/brawl. Wavedashing isn't really needed but dash dancing would be great.

 

I watched his video he pretty much wants the same exact game. I like sm4sh for what it is but i wouldn't mind a few more changes getting closer to a middle ground between melee/brawl. Wavedashing isn't really needed but dash dancing would be great.

Later on in the video he does bring up changes he'd be interested in seeing, such as either removing rage or making it operate in discrete stages (e.g. level 1 rage from 50%-100%, level 2 rage from 100%-150%, level 3 rage above 150%) or as a binary on/off thing like the Tekken mechanic that inspired it. Currently it scales directly with knockback (the formula in Smash 4 is 1 + [(p - 35)/115 * 0.15], where p is the player's current damage, with a lower limit of 35 and an upper limit of 150). He also brought up the possibility of having both ledge hogging and ledge trumping - the former while the player on ledge has invuln, the latter once they've run out of invuln.

 

Props to him for pointing out a lot of issues inherent in Melee's mechanics. I've seen a lot of people act as if we need waveashes, dash dances, L-cancels, and the like to come back because they're "supposed" to be there, and I've seen others copy the former out of peer pressure because they think it's what they're "supposed" to believe. Truth is, while Melee's signature techniques grant more movement options and they feel fun to use, they also overcentralize Melee's meta into something that revolves around their existence, meaning the viability of entire swaths of the cast hinges on how well they can utilize them over nearly everything else. If you don't fit a rigid mold, you stand next to no chance.

Seriously, as he acknowledged, the fact that Melee Samus is borderline unviable solely because her dash dance is bad is a serious design problem, and it's something we're better off not going back to if we want to keep the variety in viable characters that has made Smash 4 such a highlight.

I think he was a little too harsh on rage, though. The rage effect has a purpose: it rewards surviving to high percents and avoiding your opponents' kill options and setups (Which gets overlooked a lot as a skill!), and indirectly buffs the big heavyweights that were almost always glorified punching bags in past games. I agree that it needs to be changed--even had the same "make it work in distinct levels instead of a sliding scale" idea months ago--but we stand to gain more from refining rage and toning it down a little, not removing it.

 

I like Esam a lot, and he is one of the few that makes Sma4sh look AMAZING.

However I disagree with just about every point in this video. Dash Dancing and Air dodging to keep momentum would make Sma5h the most competitive game in the World, hands down.

 

I think jab locks in smash 4 are dumb. You can do almost any weak move like warios fair or the weak hit of ness's back air and it jab-locks. It took to long to stand up in smash 4. if it was more on the level of Melee but with a 2 to 4 hit limit, then it would be perfect in my eyes.

 

Props to him for pointing out a lot of issues inherent in Melee's mechanics. I've seen a lot of people act as if we need waveashes, dash dances, L-cancels, and the like to come back because they're "supposed" to be there, and I've seen others copy the former out of peer pressure because they think it's what they're "supposed" to believe. Truth is, while Melee's signature techniques grant more movement options and they feel fun to use, they also overcentralize Melee's meta into something that revolves around their existence, meaning the viability of entire swaths of the cast hinges on how well they can utilize them over nearly everything else. If you don't fit a rigid mold, you stand next to no chance.

Seriously, as he acknowledged, the fact that Melee Samus is borderline unviable solely because her dash dance is bad is a serious design problem, and it's something we're better off not going back to if we want to keep the variety in viable characters that has made Smash 4 such a highlight.

I think he was a little too harsh on rage, though. The rage effect has a purpose: it rewards surviving to high percents and avoiding your opponents' kill options and setups (Which gets overlooked a lot as a skill!), and indirectly buffs the big heavyweights that were almost always glorified punching bags in past games. I agree that it needs to be changed--even had the same "make it work in distinct levels instead of a sliding scale" idea months ago--but we stand to gain more from refining rage and toning it down a little, not removing it.

Yeah. As much as I like dash dancing, there are a lot of balance considerations that need to be made.

I will say that balancing heavies and short dash dancing can be done, but you need to specifically design around that. Ranno and Etalus are both top 3 characters in Rivals of Aether despite the former having the shortest dash dance in the game and the latter being the heaviest character in the game (soon to be second heaviest once Sylvanos launches). And Jason Rice from Wavedash Games talked about their approach to balancing slow, heavy characters - specifically by giving them strong burst mobility and space control options, an approach that Dan Fornace and his team also seem to follow (see again: Etalus).

That said, since Smash is designed more with free-for-alls in mind than with 1v1s, it's unlikely that those sort of balance considerations would be made, or at the very least they wouldn't be that heavily prioritized

 

Yeah. As much as I like dash dancing, there are a lot of balance considerations that need to be made.

I will say that balancing heavies and short dash dancing can be done, but you need to specifically design around that. Ranno and Etalus are both top 3 characters in Rivals of Aether despite the former having the shortest dash dance in the game and the latter being the heaviest character in the game (soon to be second heaviest once Sylvanos launches). And Jason Rice from Wavedash Games talked about their approach to balancing slow, heavy characters - specifically by giving them strong burst mobility and space control options, an approach that Dan Fornace and his team also seem to follow (see again: Etalus).

That said, since Smash is designed more with free-for-alls in mind than with 1v1s, it's unlikely that those sort of balance considerations would be made, or at the very least they wouldn't be that heavily prioritized

I don't think RoA has a distinct tier list...
The fact that Sakurai historically made the mechanics to fit non competitive settings kind of makes it unpredictable on what he will implement in this new installment.

 

I’m not giving him views.

 

I don't think RoA has a distinct tier list...
The fact that Sakurai historically made the mechanics to fit non competitive settings kind of makes it unpredictable on what he will implement in this new installment.

Rivals just doesn't have a unified tier list making body like Melee and Smash 4 do. It's more like traditional fighters where top player make their own tier lists.
And like you've said, Smash has very different considerations and makes very different design assumptions than Rivals or Icons do. Using a balance failsafe mechanic like rage is far more likely to be effective in a free-for-all environment and can help reinforce the other approach while also requiring less fine-tuning on individual characters.

 

Props to him for pointing out a lot of issues inherent in Melee's mechanics. I've seen a lot of people act as if we need waveashes, dash dances, L-cancels, and the like to come back because they're "supposed" to be there, and I've seen others copy the former out of peer pressure because they think it's what they're "supposed" to believe. Truth is, while Melee's signature techniques grant more movement options and they feel fun to use, they also overcentralize Melee's meta into something that revolves around their existence, meaning the viability of entire swaths of the cast hinges on how well they can utilize them over nearly everything else. If you don't fit a rigid mold, you stand next to no chance.

You seem to be really misinformed about how Melee players view the techs that make the game what it is. No one's gonna argue that they're intentional mechanics, it's just that they add so much depth, that games without them feel extremely stripped down and lacking in options without them.

Not only that, but the balancing of the game isn't even thrown off much by their existence. Bad characters often aren't bad due to how well they can/can't utilize certain techniques. It comes down more to frame data and character-specific options. Peach has almost no use for wavedashing, and her dashdance is really bad. She's still a top tier character. Sheik has the same dashdance window as Samus, but manages to be way better. See what I'm saying?

Also cut this conspiracy nonsense about people being peer-pressured into liking Melee. Just because you don't understand why somebody likes something doesn't mean that people that do must be forced into it in some way.

 

You seem to be really misinformed about how Melee players view the techs that make the game what it is. No one's gonna argue that they're intentional mechanics, it's just that they add so much depth, that games without them feel extremely stripped down and lacking in options without them.

Not only that, but the balancing of the game isn't even thrown off much by their existence. Bad characters often aren't bad due to how well they can/can't utilize certain techniques. It comes down more to frame data and character-specific options. Peach has almost no use for wavedashing, and her dashdance is really bad. She's still a top tier character. Sheik has the same dashdance window as Samus, but manages to be way better. See what I'm saying?

Also cut this conspiracy nonsense about people being peer-pressured into liking Melee. Just because you don't understand why somebody likes something doesn't mean that people they do must be forced into it in some way.

I just want to thank you for saying this. I read the post, and I was thinking "Really? You have no idea what you're saying." I think this is a case of someone who doesn't know what they're talking about is just talking for the sake of it. And your point hits home. Jiggs and Peach don't have good wavedashes or dash dances. Wavedashing is only a primary form of movement for certain characters like Luigi or Mewtwo, and even then there's a bit of commitment to it. Factor in jump squat, and the ten frames or so before you can even act out of it. Dash dancing is used much more in neutral.

 

I just assumed he was trolling, or maybe he is salty that he drowned in his pools in his melee locals, idk. Especially with the conspiracy BS. If anything all I hear is lower tier players in non-melee games complain about the "glitches" in melee.


Also lmao with the catchphrases like "overcentralization." Using those words/phrases doesn't make you sound smarter or make your statement any more valid btw. Also melee Samus is apparently "borderline unviable". Alrighty...

 

I don't have problem with any mechanic unless it makes a character over power.

 

I hate to generalize an entire playerbase, but it seems like Smash 4 kids will take the biggest possible logical leaps in order to paint Melee and/or games with more complexity in a bad light. Like, just admit you don't wanna put in the time to get the muscle memory down.

 

I hate to generalize an entire playerbase, but it seems like Smash 4 kids will take the biggest possible logical leaps in order to paint Melee and/or games with more complexity in a bad light. Like, just admit you don't wanna put in the time to get the muscle memory down.

Often it's a backlash to some people's perception that melee/PM/SSB64 players are elitist. There was a reddit thread on this a few days ago, and basically it boils down to how some people believe that a game should be played in a certain way. Classic examples being: "if you use c-stick to aerial you are cheating," or "grabbing is a janky/unfair/illegitmate thing," or "edgeguarding is oppressive!!!!!". It's a backlash that creates a negative loop of elitism and cynicism. Quite unfortunate, really.

And the other part to this is just inflated ego. It's completely okay if you can't do advanced techniques. there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Just don't go out of your ways to try to remove advanced techqnies and mechanics from a game because it "overcentralizes the game" or "is unfair to casual players" (which is a weird thing to say because most casuals don't even care, but I digress).

 

Often it's a backlash to some people's perception that melee/PM/SSB64 players are elitist. There was a reddit thread on this a few days ago, and basically it boils down to how some people believe that a game should be played in a certain way. Classic examples being: "if you use c-stick to aerial you are cheating," or "grabbing is a janky/unfair/illegitmate thing," or "edgeguarding is oppressive!!!!!". It's a backlash that creates a negative loop of elitism and cynicism. Quite unfortunate, really.

And the other part to this is just inflated ego. It's completely okay if you can't do advanced techniques. there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Just don't go out of your ways to try to remove advanced techqnies and mechanics from a game because it "overcentralizes the game" or "is unfair to casual players" (which is a weird thing to say because most casuals don't even care, but I digress).

...This reminds me of SmashFAQs. However, unfortunately the toxicity goes both ways for both communities. I agree with the second paragraph completely about removing tech. This is why I don't play either Brawl or Smash 4. I don't like how either play, but Brawl got me into the competitive scene (been pursuing other games for a few years now though). Removing tech just waters down the game period. It hurts every character.

 

...This reminds me of SmashFAQs. However, unfortunately the toxicity goes both ways for both communities. I agree with the second paragraph completely about removing tech. This is why I don't play either Brawl or Smash 4. I don't like how either play, but Brawl got me into the competitive scene (been pursuing other games for a few years now though). Removing tech just waters down the game period. It hurts every character.

Coming from a similar background (I played brawl casually and was introduced to competitive smash through Sm4sh), it was really sad to see Nintendo remove mechanics and techniques one by one in patches for Sm4sh, such as the ability to use c-stick for tilts while holding an item. The game just kept getting blander patch after patch, but I was personally quite happy to see how complex Bayonetta was as a character (which ironically the Sm4sh community seems to be having quite a vitrolic reaction to).

Removing things from a game to decrease the skill floor that also decreases the skill ceiling is a terrible approach to a game that people supposedly want to be competitively viable. However, lowering the skill floor but maintaining a high skill ceiling is a good idea.

 

I think jab locks in smash 4 are dumb. You can do almost any weak move like warios fair or the weak hit of ness's back air and it jab-locks. It took to long to stand up in smash 4. if it was more on the level of Melee but with a 2 to 4 hit limit, then it would be perfect in my eyes.

You require certain finesse and getting your opponent in the right position to pull them off, so it's not like they are unearned. It rewards the player for being skilled.

 

I hate Sm4sh/Brawl... IMO

Edit: And releasing another Brawl 3.0 will be very silly... please hope's not repeat the story

 

ITT melee circlejerk

 

ITT melee circlejerk

Started by Sm4sh circlejerk based around blatantly incorrect melee information; congrats buddy, you aren't contributing anything with that smartass (dumb-ass) reply.

 

Started by Sm4sh circlejerk based around blatantly incorrect melee information; congrats buddy, you aren't contributing anything with that smartass (dumb-***) reply.

I was really only @ing the person who used "smash 4 kids" unironically, so fair enough. Misinformation is no good either.

 

I was really only @ing the person who used "smash 4 kids" unironically, so fair enough. Misinformation is no good either.

I say "Melee kids" unironically too, it's just a part of my vernacular

The point still stands though, since Smash 4 *PLAYERS* have harshed on Melee with arguments that don't really hold water WAY more than I've seen Melee kids do the inverse. But a lot of this is me being a Melee kid in a scene that's predominately Smash 4 where Melee people are chastised at locals just because there's fewer of us here. The types of stuff you hear people say is just mind boggling.

 

I feel that most of the mechanics from Smash 3DS / Wii U should be reused again, which especially includes Ledge Trumping, and the Autolink Angle. I can't say much about the rage mechanic though, since you apparently don't see it much against the CPU.

 

Started by Sm4sh circlejerk based around blatantly incorrect melee information; congrats buddy, you aren't contributing anything with that smartass (dumb-***) reply.

Or Brawl circlejerk

 

Or Brawl circlejerk

brawl was only given passing mentions at best...?

 

Or Brawl circlejerk

oof