Yeah, rules are kinda awkward atm. I'd love to hear some REASONING behind them =)
(not just "us frenchies play with with only 1 stage tihi")
(not just "us frenchies play with with only 1 stage tihi")
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Epita Smash Arena 2 - Paris - 23 & 24 February 2008 - Up to 256 Players !
- Thread starter Joanna Dark
- Start date
FrostByte
Smash Lord
Isn't that the whole point of counter picking >_>
We should definetly have more stages to counter pick with!
And, will there be prizes for Low Tiers? It should be
And, will there be prizes for Low Tiers? It should be
I hope to see you there. You have improved a lot, and should do it quite well, indeed.
[K-12]
Smash Rookie
xD low tier tourmanent! =O Great idea!
Hopefully it could go.
Hopefully it could go.
Hara
Smash Apprentice
I have to agree that the rules are a bit at the moment, wobbling not allowed and stages.
Even though i will be having Brawl when the NTSC release is, i might just tag along if any Swedes are going.
at the moment, wobbling not allowed and stages.Even though i will be having Brawl when the NTSC release is, i might just tag along if any Swedes are going.
Slhoka
Smash Lord
Wobbling will NEVER be allowed in this tournament (not to say in French Tournaments).I have to agree that the rules are a bit
Zgetto, Adam, P_Shadow, Savior? Let's go.
Let's go.I didn't bother to check the ruleset at first, but now that I have to say I don't agree with the stages.
Battle Field: Why is that off in the first place?
Mute City: Sure, its pro Peach, but FD's pro Falco and thats on random!
Besides, ASP prevents such counterpicks from being completely overpowering.
Rainbowride: ^See Mute City
Corneria: Pro Fox? Ofcourse hence the word COUNTERpick.
GreenGreens: ^See Corneria (Why should you even be allowed pick a stage if you can't pick one you have the advantage on?)
PokeFloats: Apart from it being VERY gay, why isn't it allowed?
Don't get me wrong though, I hate those stages from the bottom of my heart (except for BF) and wish they had a real reason for us to ban them, but they don't.
So would you(Poilon, JD, anyone who agrees) care to explain why they're banned?
Besides the fact that 4 out of the 5 allowed stages can be considered pro Falco stages I think there should be more stages available to be used as counterpicks.
Battle Field: Why is that off in the first place?
Mute City: Sure, its pro Peach, but FD's pro Falco and thats on random!
Besides, ASP prevents such counterpicks from being completely overpowering.
Rainbowride: ^See Mute City
Corneria: Pro Fox? Ofcourse hence the word COUNTERpick.
GreenGreens: ^See Corneria (Why should you even be allowed pick a stage if you can't pick one you have the advantage on?)
PokeFloats: Apart from it being VERY gay, why isn't it allowed?
Don't get me wrong though, I hate those stages from the bottom of my heart (except for BF) and wish they had a real reason for us to ban them, but they don't.
So would you(Poilon, JD, anyone who agrees) care to explain why they're banned?
yomedrath
Smash Apprentice
to be honest, it is shocking, but i really i´m relieved to hear those stages are banned....
it´s just that they´re more "normal", than other stages, you can concentrate more on fighting itself....
i dont care that much wether they´re banned or not, but i dont think anyone, except people who trained the stages for ages would be against banning them...
maybe do a little poll or something ^^
it´s just that they´re more "normal", than other stages, you can concentrate more on fighting itself....
i dont care that much wether they´re banned or not, but i dont think anyone, except people who trained the stages for ages would be against banning them...
maybe do a little poll or something ^^
Joanna Dark
Smash Ace
I knew people would notice the lack of stages...
Well, first off, it's already a compromise for the French players : we usually play on the 3 neutral stages.
Since this is an international tournament, we're willing to make efforts about stages, but we can't accept everything. I agree Battlefield could be on. But stages like Mute City or Greengreens have been banned for years and there are good reasons, in our opinion of course.
Look at mute city for instance... right, you can't spam on it, it's way too small, and of course you definitely can't stall... but you can get hit by a car even if you're on the stage, sometimes. Also, the recovery of jiggly, peach and samus is highly enhanced compared to the other characters'. I can't think of a match on mute city where something doesn't go wrong at some point. something that shouldn't happen in tournament, cuz it's based on bad luck. This is just an example to tell you that, in France, we do not consider luck to be part of a tournament. It's even more than that : we base our tournaments on skills. pure smash bros skills. If you can't win against someone without counterpick stages, then that someone is better. If you're counting on your opponent's weakness more than on your strenght, well, that's too bad because you can't do that at a french tournament
So, let's be clear
I'll talk with Poilon about Battlefield, it should probably be on.
But I can assure you that you'll never see mute city or greengreens or rainbow ride in a french tournament. Poilon will never accept that, nor will the other players.
As you may have noticed, I didn't talk about Falco... but hey, that would be silly to say the ruleset advantages falco, I mean, falco can do good on counterpick stages too. Amsah, didn't you get 3 stocked on your counterpick (battlefield) at ros4 finals? my point is just that it depends from players. I'm better on fountain of dreams than on FD with falco for instance. I would not counterpick FD against makenshi's marth aswell...
Anyway, I hope you guys like that Battlefield will be on, but I can't do more than that, the other stages are just out of question, if you consider our view of a tournament.
that's it folks !
Well, first off, it's already a compromise for the French players : we usually play on the 3 neutral stages.
Since this is an international tournament, we're willing to make efforts about stages, but we can't accept everything. I agree Battlefield could be on. But stages like Mute City or Greengreens have been banned for years and there are good reasons, in our opinion of course.
Look at mute city for instance... right, you can't spam on it, it's way too small, and of course you definitely can't stall... but you can get hit by a car even if you're on the stage, sometimes. Also, the recovery of jiggly, peach and samus is highly enhanced compared to the other characters'. I can't think of a match on mute city where something doesn't go wrong at some point. something that shouldn't happen in tournament, cuz it's based on bad luck. This is just an example to tell you that, in France, we do not consider luck to be part of a tournament. It's even more than that : we base our tournaments on skills. pure smash bros skills. If you can't win against someone without counterpick stages, then that someone is better. If you're counting on your opponent's weakness more than on your strenght, well, that's too bad because you can't do that at a french tournament
So, let's be clear
I'll talk with Poilon about Battlefield, it should probably be on.
But I can assure you that you'll never see mute city or greengreens or rainbow ride in a french tournament. Poilon will never accept that, nor will the other players.
As you may have noticed, I didn't talk about Falco... but hey, that would be silly to say the ruleset advantages falco, I mean, falco can do good on counterpick stages too. Amsah, didn't you get 3 stocked on your counterpick (battlefield) at ros4 finals? my point is just that it depends from players. I'm better on fountain of dreams than on FD with falco for instance. I would not counterpick FD against makenshi's marth aswell...
Anyway, I hope you guys like that Battlefield will be on, but I can't do more than that, the other stages are just out of question, if you consider our view of a tournament.
that's it folks !
Samochan
Smash Master
It's obvious Amsah. This is France and you know where most of the Falco players reside...
Luma
Smash Lord
well for some ppl counterpicking is part of the smash bros skill
Vegard
Smash Lord
FD, Pokemon Stadium and Dreamland for the first random stage? WTF, are these rules made to fit yourself and Falcoplayers only, JD?
HAHAHHAHHAHAHAH
OMG, JD, your (the french?) definition of skill is hilarious. Pure Smash Bros Skill?
I, for one, am pretty sure that, say, Mute City is a part of super smash bros melee. Am I wrong here, anyone? So what makes Mute City any less of a SSBM stage than Final Destination?
You can get hit by cars on Mute City? Well, then I guess there is no skill whatsoever involved in evading the cars, right? =D
You say I can't beat you without counterpick stages? I say, you can't beat me with counterpick stages! =D
I really don't see how anyone can say counterpick stages require less skill. In fact, it requires more skill, and experience, to master the counterpick stages.
Or maybe I'm wrong here. Perhaps the true way of measuring skill is just to play on FD. I mean, there is nothing on that stage that can interfere with the players, not even other platforms. It's just one big flat piece of land. Must be the most skillful stage in the game!
Using your credentials for banning stuff, I believe falco and sheik should be banned too. They require little to no skill, and they still beat the other characters. That's totally unfair. Everyone should play the same character, to see who's got the most skill, etc etc.
See where I'm going here? You don't ban stages because you don't like them, or you think they don't require skill. You ban stuff when it breaks the game.
Thanks for your time.
OMG, JD, your (the french?) definition of skill is hilarious. Pure Smash Bros Skill?
I, for one, am pretty sure that, say, Mute City is a part of super smash bros melee. Am I wrong here, anyone? So what makes Mute City any less of a SSBM stage than Final Destination?
You can get hit by cars on Mute City? Well, then I guess there is no skill whatsoever involved in evading the cars, right? =D
You say I can't beat you without counterpick stages? I say, you can't beat me with counterpick stages! =D
I really don't see how anyone can say counterpick stages require less skill. In fact, it requires more skill, and experience, to master the counterpick stages.
Or maybe I'm wrong here. Perhaps the true way of measuring skill is just to play on FD. I mean, there is nothing on that stage that can interfere with the players, not even other platforms. It's just one big flat piece of land. Must be the most skillful stage in the game!
Using your credentials for banning stuff, I believe falco and sheik should be banned too. They require little to no skill, and they still beat the other characters. That's totally unfair. Everyone should play the same character, to see who's got the most skill, etc etc.
See where I'm going here? You don't ban stages because you don't like them, or you think they don't require skill. You ban stuff when it breaks the game.
Thanks for your time.
Samochan
Smash Master
Helios came, went and owned this thread in the process. ^^
But really, there is nothing we can do about this except whine and rant. When in Rome, do as the Roman do, as the saying goes. But the reasoning behind banning stages...
If Mute City was luck based or otherwise unviable counterpick, you wouldn't see it on MLG counterpick listing, same with other cp stages. >_> That's one list that has all the broken stages and luck based stages turned off, and the other stages that favor some characters more as a counterpick. It's beyond me why everyone don't go with these awesome rulesets. :/
But really, there is nothing we can do about this except whine and rant. When in Rome, do as the Roman do, as the saying goes. But the reasoning behind banning stages...
= Bad for Falco? >_> Stages that allow you to spam endlesly and run away are those that are banned in most instances, like Hyrule temple and Peach castle, not the other way around. The platform might be small, but it allows for both players to pressurize other and when it lands, there is enough room to do a lot of stuff. YS and FoD are also small. The whole stage itself is anything but small and true, it allows for some extended recoveries but just take a look at Dreamland, no reason to ban a stage that helps some recoveries a bit. >_> And stalling is banned, btw. (or at least the most obvious forms like rising pound and peach bomber)Joanna dark said:
If Mute City was luck based or otherwise unviable counterpick, you wouldn't see it on MLG counterpick listing, same with other cp stages. >_> That's one list that has all the broken stages and luck based stages turned off, and the other stages that favor some characters more as a counterpick. It's beyond me why everyone don't go with these awesome rulesets. :/
About the stages. I think it should be more like:
Neutral Stages(used on Random Select):
Final Destination, Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, Dreamland 64, Pokémon Stadium.
Stages Available For Counter Picking:
Princess Peach's Castle, Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, Corneria, Rainbow Ride, Jungle Japes,
Yoshi's Island, Green Greens, Brinstar, Onett, Mute City, Pokèmon Stadium, Pokè Floats,
Battlefield, Final Destination, Dream Land 64, Kongo Jungle 64.
Only neutral stages makes the counter picking boring, and it's not big differences between them...
Which won't make them as much counter picking as it should be. Besides, if they can ban a stage, that should do it.
Neutral Stages(used on Random Select):
Final Destination, Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, Dreamland 64, Pokémon Stadium.
Stages Available For Counter Picking:
Princess Peach's Castle, Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, Corneria, Rainbow Ride, Jungle Japes,
Yoshi's Island, Green Greens, Brinstar, Onett, Mute City, Pokèmon Stadium, Pokè Floats,
Battlefield, Final Destination, Dream Land 64, Kongo Jungle 64.
Only neutral stages makes the counter picking boring, and it's not big differences between them...
Which won't make them as much counter picking as it should be. Besides, if they can ban a stage, that should do it.
Care to elaborate on your reasoning?
The only thing that might seem "random" are the cars, but they always pass at the same time so you know when to expect them.
If you can't dodge them then thats YOUR lack of skill, its not random so its not luck.
Counterpicking is skill based as well.It's even more than that : we base our tournaments on skills. pure smash bros skills. If you can't win against someone without counterpick stages, then that someone is better. If you're counting on your opponent's weakness more than on your strenght, well, that's too bad because you can't do that at a french tournament
It takes skill to come up with a good counterpick and it takes skill to adapt to your opponents counterpick.
"Counting on your opponents weakness more than your own strenght"
Let me word that differently:
Finding your opponents weakness and exploiting it with a stage.
Besides, its as much counting on your opponents weakness as it is counting on your strenght because you're trying to outlast him with your skills to survive on that stage.
Ok, you've "explained" mute city somewhat, so what about green greens & rainbow ride?So, let's be clear
I'll talk with Poilon about Battlefield, it should probably be on.
But I can assure you that you'll never see mute city or greengreens or rainbow ride in a french tournament. Poilon will never accept that, nor will the other players.
Rainbow Ride is in NO WAY random (Pokemon stadium is more random with the stage morphing and the fall-through-stage glitch).
So what luck factor are you talking about?
If you consider BF a falco counter stage then I can see why you banned everything.
Its not a counterpick, it was simply the only stage left I liked that I could choose.
If it all depends on the player then why are you arguing that stages can ruin competitive play?
Seriously, if you end up losing to someone because of a stage and its not glitching through the ground then imo you deserved to lose.
No matter how you look at it, losing because of someones counterpick is your OWN fault for being in that situation.
If you can't beat people on weird stages, fine.
Be sure to beat them on all the neutral ones (the first random stage and all your counterpicks) if you can't then again, thats lack of skill, don't blame the stages.
Samochan
Smash Master
Fixed for you.
Yoshi's Island, wtf? O_o;; We don't need any more Fox shine infinite stages there, Onett and Peach castle are broken already.Some of the stages should be off, when I think about itFixed for you.
Edit: Yoshi's Island is the only stage that should be off, of those i listed.
Joanna Dark
Smash Ace
I'll let poilon argue from now on -_- but there's no point : these stages won't be on.
... and don't take it too far, it's just a ruleset, and who complained about it for ESA? it worked very good.
... and don't take it too far, it's just a ruleset, and who complained about it for ESA? it worked very good.
Yeah, and look what a great turn out you had from all the european countries. Not.
The ruleset is a dealbreaker for many of us out here, so it's in your best interest to make it suitable for european high level play if you want high level europeans to attend
The ruleset is a dealbreaker for many of us out here, so it's in your best interest to make it suitable for european high level play if you want high level europeans to attend
It might be just a minor point but its worth arguing for JD.
The ruleset had nothing to do with massive european flaking so dont use it as an excuse, you guys just sucked ***.Yeah, and look what a great turn out you had from all the european countries. Not.
The ruleset is a dealbreaker for many of us out here, so it's in your best interest to make it suitable for european high level play if you want high level europeans to attend
I'm interested in going to this. I am pretty sure that it'll collide with some university stuff though, so I'll just have to see what I can do about that. I'll also have to see how to actually get there. ~~
About the rules... This might come as a shock for some people, but I'm not gonna argue with them. I know how gay it is when everyone and their mother from other countries try to change the ruleset you put a lot of effort into with your community. It usually leads to a bad atmosphere and heated arguments before the tournament has even started -> not good. Everyone knows what the ruleset is gonna be, so live with it or don't show up. There is no perfect ruleset and you can't make everyone happy anyway. Try to have some respect for the community you're visiting.
I will have to pick up a new low tier character though, poor Luigi. =[
About the rules... This might come as a shock for some people, but I'm not gonna argue with them. I know how gay it is when everyone and their mother from other countries try to change the ruleset you put a lot of effort into with your community. It usually leads to a bad atmosphere and heated arguments before the tournament has even started -> not good. Everyone knows what the ruleset is gonna be, so live with it or don't show up. There is no perfect ruleset and you can't make everyone happy anyway. Try to have some respect for the community you're visiting.
I will have to pick up a new low tier character though, poor Luigi. =[
I'll go in any case, if I can. These rules won't stop me, but I'd still like to have more stages on counter picking. (btw it's usless to just put Battlefield in alone, you might as well stay where you are)
And, one more time, will there be prizes for Low Tiers?
And, one more time, will there be prizes for Low Tiers?
Aniolas
Smash Ace
I did'nt even notice if you had'nt say anything.
Why have France made their own tierlist?
I thought that we had an official european tierlist.
*dies*
Wow, hey now. That's just too much. I don't even wanna go there. One word:
DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN O____O
Wow, hey now. That's just too much. I don't even wanna go there. One word:
DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN O____O
jOs'z
Smash Cadet
Helios, I don't know you and I don't wanna be mean or something, but if the stages set seems gay to your eyes, just don't show up, we don't want you complaining about it.
It's pretty difficult to have every player say "yayz these rules rock", even impossible, and Poilon knows it, but he decided to put this ruleset, and you have to respect it. You know what it takes to organize a tournament, and Poilon will do his best to make it one of the greatest SSBM event ever.
The rules won't change, let's just leave it at that.
It's pretty difficult to have every player say "yayz these rules rock", even impossible, and Poilon knows it, but he decided to put this ruleset, and you have to respect it. You know what it takes to organize a tournament, and Poilon will do his best to make it one of the greatest SSBM event ever.
The rules won't change, let's just leave it at that.
Vegard
Smash Lord
You got to be kidding me -__-
"These rules won't stop me". Because they fit you perfectly as a Falco main? And the Battlefield comment was just priceless....
LoL, Ache. All the stages I like are not allowed. Even though I main Falco, I don't have to love all the stages, lol. And when all the other non-neutral stages are off, why put in Battlefield? <_<
Tournament experience doesn't just pay off in the tournaments themselves.
After having thought a bit more about this, I think that the least thing the Frenchies can do to show some goodwill towards the rest of Europe is accept the European tier list (in which some Frenchies voted!). This means that the characters allowed in low tier should be:
Luigi
Link
Yoshi
Roy
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Young Link
Mr. Game & Watch
Zelda
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo
I don't think this needs much of a debate. I'm guessing the reasoning behind not allowing Luigi are feelings that he is too good for low tier. Although he is obviously 'top tier' there, banning him just means even more Link whoring. Of course, most people don't really care about low tier, but not accepting the European tier list is kind of a nasty statement.
EDIT: I just noticed Link isn't allowed either, you can replace 'Link whoring' with 'Yoshi whoring'.
jOs'z - I don't mean to actually sit here and whine, but I do believe people are very upset about the ruleset, and then naturally people should voice their opinion.
Saying things such as "if you don't like it, don't go!" doesn't really solve the problem, as people come for other things than a good ruleset. However, the ruleset IS a major thing here, and I know several smashers that won't show due to the rules you have chosen.
All I can say for now is that I wasn't planning on going to this due to low interest in smash, in general. The ruleset just helped me make up my mind.
Saying things such as "if you don't like it, don't go!" doesn't really solve the problem, as people come for other things than a good ruleset. However, the ruleset IS a major thing here, and I know several smashers that won't show due to the rules you have chosen.
All I can say for now is that I wasn't planning on going to this due to low interest in smash, in general. The ruleset just helped me make up my mind.
Vegard
Smash Lord
Ok, all the neutral stages allowed is ok. But when only three stages are on random... that is a bit unfair, considered the advantage of some chars, like Falco.
But more stages should be on >_> I agree with Nihonjin and Helios. And Luigi and Link banned from low tiers? lol, follow the European tier list please?
But more stages should be on >_> I agree with Nihonjin and Helios. And Luigi and Link banned from low tiers? lol, follow the European tier list please?
Aniolas
Smash Ace
True.Tournament experience doesn't just pay off in the tournaments themselves.
I don't really care about lowtier tournament, but I know that several smasher takes it real serious. And I can't understand how France just change the tierlist, when they also voted about it. (As you already had said)
I really hope that the european smashscene will decied a standard ruleset for all tournaments in Europe when Brawl is released, cuz this is f*cked up.
Luma
Smash Lord
i dont understand how luigi and link are getting banned since in a lt-tierlist ness is on top, but who cares, lets ban fox and falco for singles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Vegard
Smash Lord
Nice stretch Luma lol
It would be nice if you set a date, JD...
It would be nice if you set a date, JD...
Luma, edit your post.