Electric Rat Matchup Thread (Currently discussing DK)

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I've done more in the OP...slowly...what I've left blank I need input on. What I've written is mostly generic anyway. Any input is appreciated, because I've found I'm very often absent-minded if I'm bored enough to turn to writing these :p
 
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Ness and Donkey Kong opened for discussion, opening thoughts please.

Pika-DK is imo 60:40, 65:35 on Dreamland and Congo.
Pika-Ness is about 65:35, I think, *maybe* 60:40 on Peach's (I like using Ness there fsr), 70:30 on Dreamland, it's really gay

I'm really struggling to do this all on my lonesome, I would at least have expected Funk to post something obligatory, or Star King to chime in on one of my many absurd oversights.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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Edit: Supposed to take it from the Pikachu perspective, italicized post is the old one.

For Ness: Make sure you just space well, B-airs, d-airs, etc. Pikachu wins the matchup due to having better range and having the best recovery vs. the worst recovery in the game. If Ness is sent off stage and close, just b-air or wait till he goes on stage and just back throw. You can also u-air him if Ness is close enough (Abuse Pikachu's recovery range to go off stage and kill Ness). You can also f-smash Ness's recovery as well (If I am not mistaken).

The main thing to say is quite simple: Do not spam up tilts or slower moves such as up smash. Use quick moves to prevent DJC punishes. The only way ness wins is if Pikachu isn't careful. Abuse the priority and range of Pikachu's aerials. Ness is very good at reading techs and rolls so don't get hit by a DJC d-air. Make sure you aren't going to be hit by that up tilt and play a gimp game.

I personally give the matchup a 65-35 ratio.

It is odd for me to describe the DK matchup from the opposite character's perspective so use my list below. Watch out for grabs and d-air (easier said than done).

agree to the ness ratio (possibly 60-40 on Hyrule also but I am leaning towards 65-35). I do not play ness often so take other people's opinions more seriously though. I give it a 65-35 overall.

for DK, I find Dreamland to be better as well for DK (one of the few matchups I would take a Pikachu to).
65-35 on Congo (The extra recovery options prevent DK from edgeguarding/the odd layout makes it harder (at least for me) to get a d-air or grab).
60-40 on Hyrule: easier to tech chase, DK has an issue Killing Pikachu over a certain percent.
55-45 (??) on Dreamland. The smaller platforms allow DK to read rolls and d-air combo MUCH easier. DK's grab is great on this stage just due to the ability to kill. Up b gimps are much more useful here.

so 60-40 overall. I might be a bit bias however as I am a big fan of the DK Pikachu matchup. I forgot whether DK can a first down b into a giant punch .
 
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I'm really struggling to do this all on my lonesome, I would at least have expected Funk to post something obligatory, or Star King to chime in on one of my many absurd oversights.
All right, I'll try to post more over the weekend. Sorry, I've been a little busy.

Hopefully, the new backroom additions will make the backroom more active.
 
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Funny how battlecow neatly summarised the pika-falcon matchup from pika's end - even if it was general, it was pretty correct.

Critique my dumb thoughts.

Pika has to avoid being hit by D-Air or forced onto a platform, because Ness's techchasing game is very good, and Pika's tech roll is depressingly bad. There are some mindgames you can pull with failure to tech, but you can't really rely on them.

Ness's U-Tilt works on Pika, but not to the extent it does on heavies - Ness might manage an U-Air or two, but not enough to create a true juggle. Up-B lets him escape easily.

Pika's U-Tilt can beat D-Air if timed well, but it will often trade hits or get beaten. Just learn the timing and use it well. D-Air has a pretty mediocre hitbox (in comparison to Pika's) in other directions, so it is vulnerable from said directions. His U-Air is also quite large, but can be beaten by U-Air and B-Air quite reasonably (F-Air too, from the right angle). Extended DJC B-Air is no problem if you learn to anticipate it, you can even punish it with U-Smash or a grab once you are practiced. His N-Air and F-Air are flat out beaten by aerials/U-Tilts.

When recovering, just don't recover into Ness - Ness has a huge edgeguarding range, so you have to adapt on the fly. Getting far into the stage or onto a high-ish platform is recommended, as Ness simply isn't fast enough to reach you. If it is absolutely necessary, weave around Ness to reach the edge.

To beat Ness recovering from afar, jump out as they begin their second jump and hit them or their thunderball with U-Air or B-Air. Alternatively, wait for him to PK Thunder himself up, then F-Smash, D-Tilt or edgehog him (if he sweetspots). If he attempts a PSI Magnet cancel, prepare to fall off with D-Air or N-Air (beware of his D-Air, it's not like him using an aerial prevents him recovering). Don't stray beneath him, Ness gains a lot more from reversals than you do, even if he dies as well.

I just realised I should have posted this in the OP. Sigh.
 
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How do people want these analyses released - I'm thinking that the first 6 can go out first, followed by the remaining 5 and mirror match analyses.

So everyone knows, the original intent is to facilitate less scratchy discussion by providing base material to discuss/critique/flame. As many of you have proved, it's much easier to discuss something laid out in the open, rather than putting new things out.

That said, only Donkey Kong needs work before the first 6 are done. If people want to wait until all of Pika's matchups are done, that's fine too. I'm thinking we'll let the new members have a quick crack at the existing analyses before they're thrown out, though.
 

dandan

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pretty much the same for me. can say i think nair on top works the best for edge guarding him.
you can also do a lot of combos on dk, but as i do not have a lot of experience in the matchup, i only do just general combos.
you have to be more careful when approaching because of upb.
 
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Alright, obligatory discussion question time.

How does Pika go about the DK matchup?

What moves should he use to combo him, and how do you apply them?

How does Pika control the game and tackle DK's more threatening attacks?

How should Pika recover and edgeguard against DK?

Feel free to read over the previously discussed stuff and post on it. I'll push out a skeleton of the matchup if I find the time, but until then, answer away (it's why you guys are here, right?)
 

dandan

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i will try to answer these, though i do not have much dk experience, so i will go with my intuition.

i think pika needs to be more patient in the dk matchup. dk, sort of like kirby, can punish you really badly if you get up close. on the other hand, he has real problems approaching. if the pika is patient, aware of the grab range, and does not just dash in to upb range, it can leave the dk really vulnerable. a lot of fake jumps (sh and just landing) seem like a good tactic to bait the dk to upb or try to grab.

personally, i think that unlike most of the other chars, for dk, the best move pika has to combo him is the nair and not the uair. sure, you can do uair chains, but those start at quite a higher % iirc, as dk's weight is quite different to others. on the other hand, nair chains work on him from low %. on stages like dreamland, you can do 4 nairs or 2 nairs to pivot nair bair pretty easily.
moreover, in my opinion, nair is the best gimping move for pika in this matchup, as you have to avoid those hitboxes on the upb. nair from the top will usually have enough knock back to ensure dk's demise. i personnaly feel that fsmash as an edgeguard is not appropriate in this matchup because of the invincible arms.

in addition, i feel that pika should be more careful with utilts in this matchups, because upb kind of passes straight through them.

also, try to avoid being straight above dk, mainly over platforms, as he can start uair chaining at really low %.

that is about all i got, if anyone wants to play my pika with a decent dk, i am all up to learning.
 
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If anyone has any 'protips' (any moves that work surprisingly well, any really good tips on how to push a matchup into your favour, etc), please post them, they're one of the best things you can put in a miniguide.
 
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We played some games yesterday. (me and boom)

The most obvious thing is how important spacing is and defending VS DK (even as pika) instead of being aggressive on DL.

DKs ability to push you away then punish you is really high. so mistakes are easier to notice...and make you feel a lot worse lol.

We'll play more and I'll have more to say..right now thats all thats on my head.
 

SilentSlayers

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Haven't played DK in ages, but I used to have a good DK, I'll practice him next games I play so I can make some observations.
 

dandan

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depends where you do it, i think you can also nair fair dtilt downb punch, iirc prince has some variations of this in his combo vid.
 

SilentSlayers

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Are you sure? After a nair+fair, dtilt will knock Pikachu over, so I can't see how that would combo into a down-b.

:phone:
Oh yeah, that's true, I didn't think about the dtilt part, I was just thinking about the prince-combo where he skipped that dtilt part. Yeah, I'm agreeing with you now StarKing.
 

dandan

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guess my memory sucks then, we should get back on topic though, aa, what matchup should we discuss next, and boom, any revelations on the dk matchup, because i, as i said before, am not versed in it.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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It seems that there has been a lot of DK discussion, so probably Ness next?

What to do:
Pikachu has more range than Ness. Ness also doesn't have a good projectile nor a good ranged attack so abuse this. Use grabs as they lead to gimps very easily. Up tilt combos rather easily. I find Pikachu's b-air to be the most useful aerials in this matchup followed by d-air. Also, does anyone else here find Pikachu's Thunder Jolt to be useful in this matchup?

What to avoid:
Avoid the d-airs as Ness's d-air tech chase game vs Pikachu is really good. You can get out of some u-tilt combos by using up b though. Don't use laggy moves as often like u-smash. Stick with quick aerials in other words as they nullify Ness's DJC game. Ness's up aerial has massive priority so try to avoid hitting Ness from above. Recover properly to make sure d-air gimps don't happen.

Recovery:
Pikachu has the best recovery. Ness has the worst. A single grab can lead to a death as Pikachu as it leads almost instantly to gimps. Pikachu can f-smash Ness's up b if it isn't sweet spotted as well as just simply going down and using an aerial.

Overall
In simpler terms, use your hitbox advantages and go for gimps. Avoid the d-air and Ness's up tilt/u-air. I am not that good at defining ratios but I would put it at 60-40 or 65-35. I personally dislike Dreamland for this matchup as Pikachu as it seems to make Ness's d-air tech chases easier. A larger stage such as hyrule allows Pikachu more room to escape gimps.
 

SuPeRbOoM

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guess my memory sucks then, we should get back on topic though, aa, what matchup should we discuss next, and boom, any revelations on the dk matchup, because i, as i said before, am not versed in it.
I haven't played as pika in the matchup, so no I don't have any info on using pika vs dk.
 

SuPeRbOoM

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Pika vs Samus should be easy stuff.

Pika uair beats EVERYTHING Samus has. All I really do in this matchup is just poke at samus with uair until I get a chain uair/nair combo off. Although Samus' fair is a bit annoying to poke through lol.

When you're getting shield pressured, OOS uair will work almost everytime.

For edgeguarding, try to force samus into recovering low by going out and trying to hit her during her recovery, I'd recommend bair for this. Most times Samus will backup or stop using bombs because she are scared.

Once Samus recovers low you have two options. You can try Fsmashing her, but just a sidenote here: Samus CAN sweetspot below fsmash so be careful if you use fsmash. For your second option which is better imo to use is to wait for samus to use her upb to sweetspot then dair her upb then get a free bair off of that.

Never really tried the other matchups as pika.
 

Nintendude

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I personally find Pika vs. Samus very winnable but then again you are way better than me. I find that a well-timed Dair or Bair will outrange Pikachu's aerials (except trading with Uair). Camping and charging your shot encourages Pikachus to approach. If he approaches directly then a well-spaced Bair or f-smash will beat it. If you suspect that he will feign an approach then a good read can work wonders. At low percent, forcing Pikachu to tech by comboing into the double jab can lead to a lot of damage due to Pikachu's bad tech roll.

Edgeguarding Pikachu is doable since you can use bombs to cover the edge. It's still hard but with one option covered by bombs, more times than not I can at least punish Pikachu's up-B in many situations. Another good trick is bomb the edge, jump above the edge, and shoot a full charge shot across the stage. It's kind of hard to describe but you can usually tell what Pikachu's possible up-B trajectories are depending on his height, and you can use charge shot to cover as much of that trajectory as possible. Even if he avoids the charge shot, you've limited his options enough that you have a good chance of punishing his up-B.

Getting around Pikachu's edgeguards is annoying but also doable. If he's not careful about his angle when he jumps off the stage to get you, you can trade with your Dair and kill him. If he forces you to recover low, it is pretty easy to pull off a reverse ledge DI against Pikachu's f-smash. The hardest thing to get around is Pikachu Dairing your up-B since you usually can't reverse ledge DI that and he can time it so you can't use your up-B invincibility to beat it.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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I dislike playing the Pikachu-Link matchup. I haven't played the Pikachu Luigi matchup nearly often enough so I won't judge that one tiher.

I can probably say the Samus matchup one however. I have played it from both sides.

General:
Pikachu vs Samus is one of the if not the best matchups in the game for Pikachu and possibly for any character matchup.

How to approach
Pikachu's aerials out-range and out-prioritize all of Samus's approaches and due to Samus having issues comboing and her reliance on gimping,
Approach with sh u-air/b-air/n-air.
Pikachu's up smash and u-tilt combos rather well but stay away from overly laggy moves so don't use use up smash too much. it. Pikachu can combo Samus with u-airs quite easily as well as with n-airs.

What to watch out for:
The one thing is to watch for is Samus's D-air, b-air and f-air as Pikachu's bad tech game is one of the few issues in the matchup. DI out of Samus's Up B as this prevents Samus from abusing one of her few things to prevent aerial approaches. Samus's Charge Shot also auto leads into a throw on shield so be careful when Samus is fully charged. Samus's f-tilt and jab are moderately good mixups so the simple answer is to stay out of range and just aerial, aerial, aerial.

Edgeguarding
Use b-airs, u-airs, or n-airs for edgeguards. Go off the stage to the side vs Samus's recovery as Samus simply isn't quick enough to attack Pikachu in time.

Recovering:
Pikachu has a great recovery. Samus has issues punishing it afterwards compared to many characters due to her bad combo ability. Be careful recovering near the edge as Samus's d-air is rather powerful. You can also use Pikachu's up b to get out of some pressure situations but don't use it too often.

Stages:
All stages are fine in this matchup. I would put it in personal preference but I personally wouldn't play on Dreamland as much as the smaller stage and platforms might make it so Samus has an easier d-air and f-air game.

Ratios: These can be edited if needed
Most likely 70-30 or 75-25. Tied with the worst matchup in the game with Fox-Samus (IMO)
 
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