Electric Rat Matchup Thread (Currently discussing DK)

Marc

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#41
I would say to input:
-- worse than 40-60 or heavy disadvantage
- 40-60 or disadvantage
-= 45-55 or slight disadvantage
= 50-50 or even
+= 55-45 or slight advantage
+ 60-40 or advantage
++ better than 60-40 or heavy advantage
I would remove the ratios out of the definitions altogether, but that really is the gist of it. Judging from discussion so far SSB64 doesn't have unwinnable/unloseable matchups beyond hard counters, so that doesn't warrant a category then.

-3: large disadvantage (hard countered)
-2: medium disadvantage (soft countered)
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage (soft counter)
+3: large advantage (hard counter)

...or something.
 
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#42
I don't think that system is as good to be honest, because there are even fewer 'ranks' - 7 as opposed to the 11 (75-25 to 25-75) with this percent system.

Can you enlighten me as to why exactly a 7-tier system, covering all the basic matchup definitions, is better? I'm very open to changing it, I just don't see why.
 
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#43
I think it creates less confusion. With ratios, everybody has a different definition of what the ratios represent and people may have a different sense of how big, say, a 10 point advantage is. It seems to me that large advantage, medium advantage, etc. is pretty easily and universally understood.
 

SuPeRbOoM

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#45
I'm just labelling it as 50-50 for the sake of convenience. There are probably slight pushes to either direction (I think it's slightly in Pika's favour just because of edge play), but it's pretty close anyway.
pika vs fox isn't 50:50. It may be even on Hyrule, but think about the other neutral stages. Pika is going to have an easier time on them(60:40-65:35), just plain gimp game.

We can't base matchup ratios solely on Hyrule anymore.
 

Marc

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#48
I don't think that system is as good to be honest, because there are even fewer 'ranks' - 7 as opposed to the 11 (75-25 to 25-75) with this percent system.

Can you enlighten me as to why exactly a 7-tier system, covering all the basic matchup definitions, is better? I'm very open to changing it, I just don't see why.
The 0-100 ratio system is used like a system with 21 tiers in 5-point increments and people more or less agreeing on cutoff points for soft and hard counters. Beyond 75:25 tiers aren't really used anymore, can you really say something is 90:10 rather than 85:15? The ratios suggest some kind of chance of winning, but is this a match? A set? What is this percentage thinking really based on? It makes much more sense to have categories covering all bases with less gray areas. If a game doesn't have anything beyond hard counters, they don't need to be included in the scale (but could easily be added in the form of a -4 and +4, in this case). The only issue is getting people to stop using ratios because it's such a convention.
 
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#50
We'll move on to Mario and Falcon then. Anyone wishing to add things to Pika-Fox and Pika-Kirby can look at either previous posts or the OP, where I've attempted to collect the gist of what people are saying. Please try not to veer off into lengthy discussion, unless it's really pressing.

As I understand it, Pika-Mario would be between 55-45 and 60-40 Pika, while Pika-Falcon is probably 65-35 Pika on Hyrule and 60-40 on Dreamland, perhaps Congo.
 
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#51
I think Falcon does fine vs Pika on Hyrule ... perhaps even better than DL. Falcon's combos aren't quite as good, but he still racks up 90% damage with a simple uair -> upB chain. And Hyrule massively limits Pikachu's gimp ability against Falcon.
 

King Funk

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#52
[...] while Pika-Falcon is probably 65-35 Pika on Hyrule and 60-40 on Dreamland, perhaps Congo.
I disagree. Pika-Falcon is 60-40 on Hyrule and 50-50 (or 55-45 Pika) on Dreamland.

Spacing

Pikachu has definitely the advantage overall. What you have to do as Pikachu is space very precise aerials and especially uair because it literally beats any approach Falcon has. It is vital not to ever leave a single opening. There's two layers in this matchup: the SH range and the ground. A Falcon that is fishing for a hit will often SH fair or bair. Pikachu's uair beats any of those if spaced properly. However, what many Falcon players will attempt at one point to do is not jump, get under pika's aerial and usmash him so that they can start a combo. Avoid just throwing/whiffing an aerial ("swinging in the open air") if your opponent is just standing and waiting in front of you because he'll punish it easily (grab/usmash). As a general rule, if Falcon is not jumping, it is far more recommended to only use aerials right before you're landing. Uair right before landing works wonders if spaced well. So If you stay grounded, you can stop a badly spaced fair/bair with utilt and score a lot of damage from there (utilt chain, utilt to grab, utilt to usmash).

Summing it up:
- Pikachu's uair beats any of Falcon's aerials
- Pikachu has to uair Falcon's aerials on reaction to be efficient
- If Falcon stays grounded, Pikachu must avoid the usmash (and punish the ending lag) or space an aerial right before his landing in order not to get hit ; beware of his grab too
- A whiffed fair or bair by Falcon can easily be punished by utilt

Comboing/killing

Falcon is the easiest character to combo in the game. But your main goal vs him will be to try and get quick kills by sending him offstage and gimping him (however this is NOT a good reason to pick Dreamland in this matchup, as explained later). You will often find yourself starting them out of an utilt. A 0-10% utilt will give you a free grab. At around 35% and more you can chain utilts for massive damage (around 5-6 times maximum) and then follow it up with a grab, usmash, uair chain, nair, and a lot of other moves. Falcon is also insanely easy to wall combo on Hyrule as Pikachu. And like most other matchups, try and get a grab if Falcon is at high % perecent to be killed by b-throw. But Pikachu may have a hard time get kills with other moves than b-throw so your main source of kills essentially comes from gimps. Anything that will get Falcon offstage will make things work to your advantage, but if you're not proficient at edgeguarding/gimping Falcon you will probably lose this matchup.

One of the reasons Falcon can be difficult for Pikachu is how extremely hard he can get punished for an error. Of course, every character has to beware of that vs Falcon, but while his Pikachu's weight makes him resistant to some combos, he is actually vulnerable to other inconveniently dangerous combos such as grab -> fair -> uair -> up-b (which if not DI'ed is an instant 0-death in most cases on Dreamland). However this does not matter too much if Falcon doesn't get a grab, so as long as you don't get hit there shouldn't be much trouble.

Edgeguarding/gimping

To edgeguard Falcon, you must predict three different types of recoveries:
- if he aims for a spaced recovery to the edge, d-tilt/f-tilt are very good tools and cover that very well
- if he goes as high as possible, either intercept it with uair or bair, or predict where he will land and grab him and throw him offstage again
- if he comes from below or directly at you, use uair, bair or f-smash (expect ledge DI on that one) depending on the angle ; it is also great to drop off and reverse nair/bair

And if Falcon is at that specific distance from the stage where his only option is to get to the edge, f-smash is a guaranteed kill, but edgehogging is easier. You can also negate his edge recovery option by taking the edge, letting him recover, get on the stage, grab him during the ending lag of his up-b landing. Throwing Falcon repeatedly that way is a good way to build on his frustration.

If you're confident enough, you can go offstage and gimp Falcon with uair, nair or bair, combos and mixups with them, and recover quite safely. This works best of course when Falcon is at low altitude.

Stages

Surprisingly enough, Hyrule is a better stage for Pikachu than Dreamland and Congo Jungle. This is due to the fact that Dreamland and Congo buff Falcon far more than it does to Pikachu, and Pikachu remains very good on Hyrule while Falcon is lackluster there.

Hyrule gives a lot more breathing space for Pikachu to play patiently and wait for opportunities. The flat part is great for starting a spacing battle and Pikachu will have the upper hand because Falcon can't use the platforms to mix up his approach like he can on Dreamland. The edge parts of Hyrule are also better for Pikachu to edgeguard on as Falcon hasn't got the recovery with platform option he has on Dreamland (Falcon can go as high as possible and land on one of the platforms to hopefully minimize risk and after using up-b he is also able to slip through the platforms, which no character in the game can do without using specific moves). Same applies to Congo, where Falcon can choose to aim for the high platforms. While those won't really save him on either stage, they ARE options. The more options he can mix up with, the better for him (this will be explained better when we get to Falcon vs Pikachu). The box part in Hyrule is also great for Pikachu as he is very difficult to punish there, and by baiting Falcon in and getting a grab he gets very easy wall combos. It's not a Pikachu-exclusive method obviously, but it is very efficient for him because he has good speed to dashdance with and an excellent grab to start a wall combo with.

Playing on Dreamland vs Falcon as Pikachu can also feel very claustrophobic. You may have more opportunities to gimp there but Falcon has much greater mobility on this stage and he can also basically kill Pikachu with a single grab while Hyrule's stage boundaries allow him to survive usually more than one combo.

Choose Hyrule if you can.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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#53
I am surprised with your sentence "Pick Hyrule when you can" if you posted the Pikachu falcon match as 60-40 Pikachu on Hyrule and 55-45 or 50-50 on Dreamland.

Though I do find that Pikachu vs Falcon is better on Hyrule due to the gimp fest on Dreamland. Falcon needs room to space or he will get grabbed and killed quickly. Falcon doesn't have too big of an issue catching up with Pikachu if he up b's out of a combo due to his speed and I find it much easier to space vs U-airs or u-tilts on Hyrule with Falcon than on Dreamland. 55-45 Pikachu on Hyrule, 60-40 Pikachu on Dreamland, 60-40 (?) Pikachu on Congo Jungle, mostly since I find the sloped platforms harder for Falcon to combo on. So, Pikachu>Falcon (60-40) overall.

For Mario, 65-35 Mario on Dreamland, Avoid it, The gimping is even easier than with Pikachu and IMO, it is his worst matchup on Dreamland and possibly Falcon's worst matchup. Avoiding grabs is much harder. 60-40 or 55-45 Mario on Hyrule, make sure you properly get rid of the Fireballs (I believe Falcon's f-air can be used) 55-45 Mario on Congo Jungle. Slight Advantage for Mario overall though it might possibly be a 60-40 for Mario.

I find Falcon's best choice vs Pikachu is Hyrule and for Mario, it is Peach's Castle. I find Falcon's manueverability on this stage better than Mario's (I might have bias as Peach's castle is my best Falcon stage).

For the Pikachu-Mario matchup, I do not play this matchup often nor am I that good at this matchup so I won't give a full opinion but I find it 60-40 Pikachu, better on Hyrule for mario as Mario (in similarity to Falcon) needs more room to space than pikachu due to Pikachu having more aerial priority).
 

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#54
pikachu vs falcon hyrule 60:40 pika
pikachu vs falcon Dreamland 60:40 pika

the reason i think the are the same is that all the reasons king funk named for falcon, apply to pikachu.

He seems to be assuming the pika isnt going to attack and plans to use Hyrules layout to his advantage, to bad pikachu can pressure, space, combo and gimp better on dreamland as well, so if the pikachu is versatile, dreamland wont hinder nor help either player much.

The reason most falcon players feel dreamland is better is mostly due to how much they play dreamland as falcon. Both chars get worse on hyrule in regards to every aspect you named...but they both also get much better on dreamland...I'd be close to saying pikas actually better on Dreamland vs Falcon dispite the reasons you said because it becomes way to easy to bait, combo and kill falcon.
 
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#55
Falcon still combos very very well on Hyrule. If you don't believe me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o05A1g0pSVQ&t=1m55s

Falcon's combos are better on DL but Pika has way more gimp opportunities.

Also, Pika doesn't combo Falcon that well in game because he doesn't have good combo starters. Pretty much the only reliable one is utilt, but that is still counting on Falcon to jump directly into utilts. Dair usmash works at low percents but is risky.

Of course, Pika combos EXTREMELY well in the tent. Falcon is actually slightly underrated in the tent too, since it isn't too hard to do a few throws -> uair chain.
 

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#56
you can go from almost any air attack into a Usmash if you follow DI / do it correctly

Pikachu combos very well vs falcon on DL because he doesn't need long, tricky combos ... a few easy tilts, uair, nair...game set!

isai's "tip" on fox awhile ago was "keep it simple" this applies to all chars of course but i feel pika players should also remember this. Pika DOESN'T have a hard time killing falcon once the opportunity is there, plus with lesser amounts of hits (then most of falcons), and no drills needed, pikas combos are not only easy on DL but effective against even the best of players.
 

King Funk

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#57
What you seem to forget is that platforms help Falcon a lot more than Pikachu. It is a LOT safer for Falcon to use the platforms than Pikachu because:
- Falcon can actively attempt to force Pikachu into the platforms and then pressure him heavily with uair (leading to either shield pressure, or a hit, which in itself leads to a combo)
- Falcon can run around on platforms for movement mixups a lot more safely because he doesn't have as much to fear about Pikachu there than the other way around
- Pikachu has no safe way of dropping into Falcon from them
- Falcon can drop from platforms with a lot less risk (pika utilt being easier to avoid than falcon usmash and pika usually not being fast enough to grab falcon on his landing)
- Falcon can recover onstage and aim for the platform and usually the worst that will happen to him is a bair
- Falcon can cover Pikachu's recovery on platform option with uair to combo or up-b

Of course all of this is debatable and I'll admit I might be biased about it. But from my very very large experience vs Pikachu (the matchup I've prolly played the most), Dreamland has always been a more manageable stage for me.

Oh and btw Koro, we are not discussing Falcon vs Mario, we're discussing Pika vs Falcon and Pika vs Mario.

EDIT: just asked a few friends about the Pika v Falcon matchup and almost all of them think that picking Hyrule or Dreamland depends on the other player's playstyle and that both stages have their strengths and weaknesses for Pikachu.
 

Surri-Sama

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#58
I'll agree Falcon can pressure from below the platforms, better then pikachu can, but thats about it.

Pikachu has CRAZY speed with those platforms and his Uair pressure. I would say more so then falcon.

You almost never refer to pikachu using Nair to cut off your recovery. Every situation you're putting forward regarding falcons recovery implied you where sent far enough to reach the platforms, and secondly that pikachu inst following you the whole way with Nair (or something of the like) waiting for you to jump into (and if you dont jump, well good bye? :p)

Once falcon is off the stage at low/mid percents pikachu can commit to some easy off stage gimps which leave no recovery. This should be the focus of the pikachu, thus the better the pikachu the less and less your going to see him throw you far enough away to have those options you refer to.

Now i know this is "same skill" so let me point out the main aspect of this is Pikachus recovery and ability to return from many many many places falcon cannot. Falcon's recovery's are limited in general because his recovery sucks. The smaller stage size of Dreamland highlights pikachus ability to gimp, follow, and neutralize any recovery chance, while the platforms highlight his awesome air speed, combos and pressure through fast, large hit box air attacks.
 

King Funk

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#60
Pikachu has CRAZY speed with those platforms and his Uair pressure. I would say more so then falcon.
The problem is Falcon almost negates Pikachu's ability to use platforms with nothing but pressure while the other way around is hardly the case (at least when Falcon is at low-mid%).

Pika can escape any pressure with upB too
Hm... I should have someone experiment that for me.

I'd love to record matches to prove my point about how well you can use platforms vs pika but I kinda fear the "udoingitwrong" for the Pikachu I might play against. But maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea.
 
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#62
Tired so I only wrote up Falcon. Any thoughts on Peach's? I think it's both good and bad for Pika, comments in the OP.

Please provide combos that can be done at general percentages (even moderate damage or w/e). This is information that pretty much every other matchup thread has, so I'd prefer it for the sake of completion. The preferred format is something like

U-Smash > U-Air works at 40-50%
U-Air chains work at 50-80%
Chaingrabs in the **** tent at low percent

General information is all I need, don't worry about "this combo only works on Congo and Dreamland because there are platforms to cancel off". All I want are common combos and when they *can* work.

This includes tent combos, and if you have this sort of information for Kirby and Fox, it would be much appreciated.
 

King Funk

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#63
There's many parts where you say Hyrule is clearly better for Pika than Dreamland although the ratio is still 60-40 for both stages. Dreamland should be 55-45 Pika imho.

Also, dropping off with aerials as Pika is amazing if you do it correctly (getting behind Falcon's up-b and stagespiking him with bair if he's recovering low for example).
 
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#64
The reason I say that is because Pika-Falcon on Dreamland does not seem much better than the one on Hyrule. Both characters are boosted on Dreamland, but Pika has easier low-percent gimps on Dreamland and easy tent KOs on Hyrule, and while Falcon does have an easier time on Dreamland, I don't think it's enough to tip it any further in his favour. The platforms favour him as well.

If there really is enough objection to it I'll change it formally, but I'll mention that Dreamland is better for Falcon.
 

King Funk

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#65
The reason I say that is because Pika-Falcon on Dreamland does not seem much better than the one on Hyrule. Both characters are boosted on Dreamland, but Pika has easier low-percent gimps on Dreamland and easy tent KOs on Hyrule, and while Falcon does have an easier time on Dreamland, I don't think it's enough to tip it any further in his favour. The platforms favour him as well.

If there really is enough objection to it I'll change it formally, but I'll mention that Dreamland is better for Falcon.
If it truly is better for Falcon then the ratio should show it.

Let's move on to Pika vs Mario anyway.
 
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#66
Added small recovery sections to vs Fox, Kirby and Falcon, incorporate into discussion from now on, if you'd please. I know there isn't much to say, but having that rounds it out a bit.
 

King Funk

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#67
Recovering
Sweetspotting is often a good idea, as Falcon cannot do a great deal to you from the edge. The biggest threats are angled F-Smash, D-Tilt and Falcon Kick, all of which are incredibly risky to the Falcon player, as using them leaves the stage free for you to land on.

The other aforementioned option is landing on the stage. It's far more dangerous, and a good Falcon will often let you do this so they can punish with an U-Smash, U-Air > Up-B or B-Throw. This applies to landing on the high platforms in Dreamland and Congo as well as the green house in Hyrule.
Hmmm...

The goal when recovering vs Falcon is to vary. He's very tough to recover against because he covers virtually all Pikachu's options so you have to mix it up as much as possible. When I play against a Pikachu that often goes for the edge, I often see myself simply take the edge and edgehop dair or simply d-tilt it.

You have to trick your Falcon opponent into thinking you're either going for the edge or onstage.
 
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#68
He's very tough to recover against because he covers virtually all Pikachu's options so you have to mix it up as much as possible.
Falcon is not tough for pikachu to recover against, at least not if you consider the hard time falcon has vs pikachu's edge guarding.

All chars will cover all other chars recovery if the player is better...but thats not an aspect, pikachu has 90120297312 more weapons vs falcon when it comes to recovering.


If it truly is better for Falcon then the ratio should show it.
I think it would if it did lol...but as AA said it helps both greatly, not just falcon. Then you say if it helps falcon it should show...but because of the double edge sword that is Dreamland (for heavy chars its a Double edged sword anyways) the matches will generally end up the same way as they would on hyrule... probably just faster with shorter / more effective combos and more throws
 

King Funk

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#71
I meant in recovering.

Pikachu makes falcon suffer a lot more then falcon will make pika suffer off stage
.....................

When did I say that the matchup was in Falcon's FAVOR just because he was excellent at edgeguarding Pikachu? >_>

I just said he's amazingly good at it but that won't change the matchup lol.
 

King Funk

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#73
I didnt say you did say that.

what i said was that falcons edgeguarding isn't as good as you said it was.
Falcon can just grab the edge, eliminating that option of Pikachu, then virtually cover ANYTHING else Pikachu does because of his combined speed and very useful moveset. Name me one way Pikachu can come back safely.

I can name one... up-b edge canceling... but that's really about it. xD
 

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#74
Falcon can just grab the edge, eliminating that option of Pikachu, then virtually cover ANYTHING else Pikachu does because of his combined speed and very useful moveset. Name me one way Pikachu can come back safely.

I can name one... up-b edge canceling... but that's really about it. xD
Which edge cancels work better on Dreamland. Also, I find Pikachu's recovery to have so far a distance that I sometimes have issue edgeguarding Pikachu on Hyrule. Also, does anyone else here prefer Falcon's b-air for edgeguards in this matchup.
 

King Funk

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#75
Which edge cancels work better on Dreamland. Also, I find Pikachu's recovery to have so far a distance that I sometimes have issue edgeguarding Pikachu on Hyrule. Also, does anyone else here prefer Falcon's b-air for edgeguards in this matchup.
I try to read where he's going and vary between dair, bair, reverse uair.

Sometimes a Pikachu expects me to jump from the edge to go punish him had he gone towards the stage, so he aims for the edge. A good way to counter that is to simply automatically do a ledgehop dair every time into the stage. Whether he does go for the edge or not doesn't matter that way, and you cover all options. =)
 
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#76
Falcon is pretty good at edgeguarding Pika.

The video I posted earlier of that combo ends with a perfect edgeguard - falcon's dair, when perfectly spaced, covers both Pika going high and Pika going low.

But yeah overall it's mostly about speed ... but if Pika is close enough on DL he can either go for the ledge or go to the complete opposite side of the stage where even Falcon/Fox speed won't catch up to him in time.

And it's not like edgeguards against Pika always mean that you are going to actually get a kill. It's usually just a chance to rack up some percent against him while he gets back.
 
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#77
Falcon is okay at edgeguarding Pika because he can cover most options.

The problem with edgehogging is that you have a very, very short time window in which to react to the Pika player's decision once they realise you've edgehogged, especially if they go a fair way in-stage. Too early and you'll let the Pika take the edge. Too late and you won't punish. Pika hasn't got much landing lag from Agility.

Should I add sections on what to do when you've grabbed the ledge (ie bait out an F-Smash with your normal getup, etc?).

Also Funk, you're a teensy bit biased for Falcon.
 

King Funk

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#78
No, it's just people who tend to overrate Pikachu's recovery. What I'm saying is more based on a lot of exp vs Pikachu and not bias. Never suggested that Falcon had anything close to an advantage vs Pikachu on Dreamland, but that he gives him a run for his money.

Falcon is way more awful vs Fox than vs Pikachu lol.

But anyway, this is Pikachu vs Falcon, not the contrary, and I hope my long post about it helped. =)
 
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#79
But yeah overall it's mostly about speed ... but if Pika is close enough on DL he can either go for the ledge or go to the complete opposite side of the stage where even Falcon/Fox speed won't catch up to him in time.
Pretty much this. If Pikachu is far away enough from the ledge, Falcon can sometimes cover all of Pikachu's options with a well-timed ledgehop Dair. However, if Pikachu is close enough that his mid-air jump brings diagonally above the ledge and fairly close, it is really difficult to cover both Pikachu's option to immediately sweetspot the ledge (which can be really hard to hit, depending on how close Pikachu is, so sometimes edgehogging is the only reliable option), or
going as far away from the ledge as possible.

Also Funk, you're a teensy bit biased for Falcon.
Teensy? :bee:
 

s2j

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#80
No, it's just people who tend to overrate Pikachu's recovery. What I'm saying is more based on a lot of exp vs Pikachu and not bias. Never suggested that Falcon had anything close to an advantage vs Pikachu on Dreamland, but that he gives him a run for his money.

Falcon is way more awful vs Fox than vs Pikachu lol.

But anyway, this is Pikachu vs Falcon, not the contrary, and I hope my long post about it helped. =)
falcon vs fox is not as bad as falcon vs pikachu

especially online

in real life though i think fox has a tiny advantage on both hyrule and dreamland


falcon edgeguards pika pretty well imo
 
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