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Egg Roll Frame Analysis

Masonomace

Yeah Shulk, get stuck in!
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Apr 10, 2010
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Masonomace
In Smash 4, I created a thread of the same nature for Shulk. However, I will only discuss Yoshi's Side-B as that's objectively his worst move. Since even his throws & FTilt have drastically improved usage, only his Egg Roll remains to be awful. You could say that if Yoshi didn't have a Side-B, he'd be a better character due to mis-inputs becoming non-existent.

We all knew this move was bad (right, reader?). We know why we don't use it much. But do all of us really know why it's so bad exactly? That's what this thread is for. To expose how bad Chinese Food tastes in Smash Brothers. Although, I won't act like I know absolutely 100% everything about this move. You can only try to explore so much for a inherently bad-designed move that even I can get bored of messing around with it. So no damages or anything of that nature will be included. With all that said, Egg Roll will be separated into different categories provided with spoilers for clicking ease-of-use.

Legend / Key
F = Frame
ER = Egg Roll
Startup = The beginning of the move before being a hitbox
Eggsquat = Going through 3 frames of the game before jumping while in Egg Roll
Eggjump = Applying jump force, being airborne while in Egg Roll
Turnaround = Turning motion while in Egg. Turnaround is endlag. No hitbox.
Eggbreak = Pressing the special button to release from Egg Roll. Eggbreak is endlag. No hitbox.



Notes
-Yoshi only gets one of everything per use of Egg Roll.
-This entails that Yoshi must Eggsquat to Eggjump. And that you can only jump in Egg once.
-Likewise, you have limited duration in Egg, so you must Eggbreak eventually.



Reference of Frame Data
Frames:

Startup - 24 is the first frame Egg can break against a wall

Utility - 47 is the first frame Eggbreak can occur regardless of position

On~landing - 48 allows Eggsquat into Eggjumping applications to be used
On~landing - 51 is the first frame Yoshi is technically airborne after Eggsquat


Endlag - 60 is the frame Yoshi is seen to be physically breaking free from Egg
Endlag - 86 is the first frame Yoshi can act out of Aerial Egg
Endlag - 91 is the first frame Yoshi acts out of Grounded Egg or Air-to-Grounded Egg



From standing
Startup: Frames 1-30
F31 is the first hitbox frame, and is also the frame Egg lands.


The entire sequence of animations for the startup:
F 1 - 10: Yoshi hovering in the air
F 11: Egg shell encases Yoshi
F 12 - 14: Yoshi appearing curled
F 15 - 16: Egg shell encases Yoshi
F 17 - 18: Yoshi appearing
F 19 - 20: Egg shell encasing Yoshi
F 21 - 22: Yoshi appearing
F 23 onward: Egg shell encasing Yoshi until Eggbreak
F 31: Egg shell lands & is a hitbox


Note: Rumble feature takes place on frames 12, & 31. Rumble continues going on F31 & onward until other matters take place.


From standing
F 1: The very first frame of landing which is also the hitbox
F 2-18: Rolls as a bouncy standard-looking Egg
F19+: Egg visually becomes blurry-looking with rolling circle effects surrounding it


Note: Starting on frame 19 & onward, Eggsquat into Eggjumping can be applied at anytime.

Also, you can land on a platform anywhere on said stage, & bounce off it to land on either another platform or the stage. That instance will vary. It's not recorded here hence why "100%" is not in the title.


Eggsquat
3F


Note: After enough time from landing, ER eventually meets the opportunity to transition into the Eggsquat before jumping. To put it simply, the very first frame the Egg looks blurred with rolling circle effects is the same frame that Eggsquatting can initiate. The Egg itself doesn't have any particular animations to go off of clearly seeing if the squat is any different. Interestingly enough, the Eggsquat used to be more than 3F in Smash 4. So it's now become the same as the universal jumpsquat all characters share.


Eggjump
Buffered Input Window: F 2+ within startup


Note: The Eggjump can be buffered as soon as the 2nd frame in the startup, but it doesn't begin to matter until the 48th frame, aka, the 19th frame of Egg upon landing. The moment Yoshi's Egg is seen as blurry-looking with circle trail effects around it will ALWAYS be the sign to apply Eggsquat.


From standing, into landing
F 1: Rumble begins. Hitbox is active
F 2-17: Normal-looking Egg being bouncy & moving
F 18: Blurred-looking Egg
F 19: First frame of turnaround
F 31: First hitbox frame out of turnaround
F 32: First frame of second turnaround
F 51: First hitbox frame out of the buffered second turnaround



From standing, buffer short hop + ER, into landing
F 1: Rumble begins. Hitbox is active
F2-18: Normal-looking Egg being bouncy & moving
F 19: Blurred-looking Egg
F 20: First frame of turnaround
F 30: First hitbox frame out of turnaround
F 31: First frame of second turnaround
F 45: First hitbox frame out of the buffered second turnaround



Notes:
-Turnaround is not a hitbox. It's endlag.
-Essentially, the results can differ. With enough instances to test, one can find that if a character's hurtbox enters the "threatzone" of the Egg's yolk hitbox during a turnaround, then the hitbox can become active sooner than expected.
-ER's first turnaround varies on the velocity traveled while in Egg. It can be inconsistent & "wack"



-Holding forward for 60F upon landing
-Turning for 1F on F61
-Hitbox becomes worthy again on F90
-It slightly matters if you just tap the joystick direction for 1F, or hold it for all 28 turnaround frames. Hitbox becomes active again on F88 if you held it for all 28F


-Holding forward for 50F upon landing
-Turning for 1F on F51
-Hitbox becomes worthy again on F77
-It doesn't matter if you just tap the joystick direction for 1F, or hold it for all 27F. Hitbox becomes active again regardless of direction held.



-Holding forward for 45F upon landing
-Turning for 1F on F46
-Hitbox becomes worthy again on F73
-It doesn't matter if you just tap the joystick direction for 1F, or hold it for all 28F. Hitbox becomes active again regardless of direction held



-Holding forward for 35F upon landing
-Turning for 1F on F36
-Hitbox becomes worthy again on F56
-It doesn't matter if you just tap the joystick direction for 1F, or hold it for all 26F. Hitbox becomes active again regardless of direction held



-Holding forward for 30F upon landing
-Turning for 1F on F31
-Hitbox becomes worthy again on F56
-It doesn't matter if you just tap the joystick direction for 1F, or hold it for all 26F. Hitbox becomes active again regardless of direction held



-Holding forward for 18F upon landing
-Turning for 1F on F19
-Hitbox becomes worthy again on F31
-It doesn't matter if you just tap the joystick direction for 1F, or hold it for all 13F. Hitbox becomes active again regardless of direction held. Yet, F29 was a hitbox when Mega Man runs toward the ER's yolk


*Results can vary depending on the airtime & the position you initiate ER near said platform.

Optimized ER on platform
Startup: Frames 1-21
F 22 is the first hitbox frame, and is also the frame Egg lands.


The entire sequence of animations for the startup:
F 1 - 10: Yoshi rising
F 11: Egg shell forms
F 12 - 14: Yoshi appears without Egg shell
F 15 -16: Egg shell forms
F 17 - 18: Yoshi appears without Egg shell
F 19 - 20: Egg shell forms
F 21: Yoshi appears without Egg shell
F 22: Blurred-looking Egg shell forms & rolling.


-On frames 12 & 17, rumble pulses can be barely felt.
-From F 22 & onward, constant rumbling begins.



Notes:
As a result with platform usage with a short hop, full hop, or doublejump, ER can be utilized in a way where it modifies the terrible startup. Instead of waiting on the 31st frame just to get rolling & Eggsquat on the 48th frame, Yoshi can now start rolling with hitbox activity AND choose to Eggsquat as early as the 22nd frame. Of course, with different timings, you can land on frames like F 23, 25, whatever. Frame 22 is the earliest you can land however.


The reality:
-Yoshi's ER has an Eggbreak that differs in endlag depending on the labbed scenarios I provide below
-Yoshi ultimately suffers either 39F of endlag, or 44F of Eggbreak lag



ER during frames 31 - 46 on-block
-Eggbreak after shieldlag
-Suffer 44F of endlag
-Yoshi acts on F 45


ER during frame 47 & onward on-block
-Eggbreak after shieldlag
-Suffers 39F of endlag
-Yoshi acts on F 40


Note: This implies that right as the Egg's hitbox during said frames hit a shield, Eggbreak is buffered during shield lag. This is so that the first frame of Eggbreak lag matches the first frame of the defender's shieldstun,


F 31 of ER on-block, plus more rolling

1-15 frames of rolling
-Roll for 1-15 frames after shieldlag
-Yoshi suffers 44F
-Yoshi acts on F 45


16 frames or more of rolling
-Roll for 16+ frames after shieldlag
-Yoshi suffers 39F
-Yoshi acts on F 40


Notes:
-ER on F 31 is not even close to being safe on-block. This is just for example.
-Right as Yoshi lands on F 31, the defender blocks the hitbox and Yoshi continues rolling. If Yoshi is rolling for 1 - 15 frames after shieldlag, he can initiate an Eggbreak at any point during that 15F window & suffer the 44F of endlag. Whereas when Yoshi rolls for 16 frames or more after shieldlag, initiating an Eggbreak at any point suffers only 39F of endlag.


Brief Frame Analysis
F 1 - 13: Collides with wall, creating vibrant effects
F 14: Yoshi physically breaking out of shell
F 16: Vibrant visual effects completely vanish altogether
F 35: Yoshi's eyes blink closed
F 40: Yoshi acts


Key note: The 24th frame of ER falling airborne is the first frame you can break against a walled surface


To the majority of projectiles in the game, ER tends to lose most of the time. However, there are a few examples that I've provided evidence for so that ER was able to clank with said zoning tools. ER's hitbox being the yolk will attempt contesting these attacks, but Yoshi doesn't have good coverage while rolling in the Egg. This means projectiles that hit low, high, & sometimes just blatantly in front of the Egg will stuff him & lose the trade. Have a short analysis of what Yoshi does against said moves.

Notes:
-The damages are specifically recorded with using the non-1v1 multiplier. But it doesn't matter.
-ER will never clank with a move that deals ~7.7% damage or more. The weakest move I noticed able to clank with ER dealt 4.5%.



ER vs Pikachu's late / sour Thunderjolt
-TJolt at this range deals 4.8%
-ER at this range deals 12.0%
-Both clank with each other
-ER on F 57 clashes with TJolt


Frame Analysis
F 1-4: Egg clanks
F 5: Spiky golden hit effect appears
F 14: Egg begins to slightly move from clanklag
F 15: Yoshi escapes from blurry Egg state
F 44: Yoshi acts on this frame from 43 frames of clank lag



ER vs Lucario's uncharged Aura Sphere while at 0%
-Deals ~4.5%.
-clanks against it
-Clanklag is 45F
-Yoshi acts on F 46



ER vs Lucario's uncharged Aura Sphere while at 51%
-Deals ~7.6%
-clanks against it on X frame
-Clanklag is 45F
-Yoshi acts on F 46


Note: Kinda impressive that he can clank against the move, I guess...


ER vs Zero Suit Samus' Paralyzer
-Deals 4.8%
-Clanks against it on F 72
-Paralyzer shot clanked on F 42
-Clanklag is 45F
-Yoshi acts on F 46


Note: By the way, most of the time, Yoshi would lose to the shocking experience. That's a punish.


ER vs Ivysaur's Soft-input Razor Leaf
-Deals 4.8%
-Clanks against it
-Leaf & Egg Rolling were done simultaneously
-Clanklag is 43F
-Yoshi acts on F 44


Note: A lot of the times, ER's lack-of coverage made Yoshi become vulnerable to the leaf. The leaf can also arch & go low or high at times, which doesn't help.


ER vs Ivysaur's Hard-input Razor Leaf
-Deals 7.2%
-Clanks against it on F 71
-Leaf thrown right as Egg lands on F 31 to hit on F 40
-Clanklag is 44F
-Yoshi acts on F 45


Heh, at least you could clank with such a thing in the first place, right?


Design flaws
-Hitting a wall is not a hitbox

-Initiating the Eggbreak at any point stops becoming a hitbox

-A falling Egg isn't a hitbox

-Deciding to turnaround results in losing hitbox activity for up to 13 - 28 frames

-If ER breaks out while landing before the first actionable frame, Yoshi acts on F 45 grounded or F 91 airborne-to-ground respectively

-If Grounded ER breaks as soon as F 47, Yoshi acts on the 91st frame. But Eggbreak on F 48 allows Yoshi to act on the 87th frame instead

-If Aerial ER breaks & lands before the first actionable frame being frame 86, Yoshi suffers 5 extra frames of endlag

-Yoshi's Egg shell HAS to face in the same direction of a walled surface to break out of ER

-Even though Eggsquat is 3 F, a standard Eggjump's height isn't noticeable on the first airtime frame

-ER's 3F eggsquat window will NOT execute an Eggjump during shieldstun while hitting a shield. In fact, it eats the jump input

-The Turnaround can sometimes take up to 30 frames or more to become hitbox-worthy again

-The Turnaround can rarely result in never being hitbox-worthy again until forced to because of the rolling duration nearing its end

-ER's hitbox on-block from F 31 - 46 suffers 44F of Eggbreak lag during the defender's shieldstun. On frame 47 & beyond on-block suffers 39F of Eggbreak lag during the defender's shieldstun

-Buffered Eggbreak during startup or from F 31 - 46 officially occuring on the 47th frame is the laggiest result of Egg Roll game-play

-By needing 30 F of startup, Yoshi's ER travels poorly & won't noticeably move faster or have any "priority" until the 48th frame. That's when you really start to really move... 48 frames into the entire move





Buffs that would shape the move's meta
16px-Buff.png
Reduced startup of Grounded Egg Roll
-From frame 31 → 22.



16px-Buff.png
Remove the "bouncy and slow" animations from Grounded Egg Roll on-landing to initialize the speed to be at its peak
-Frames 31 - 47 being "bouncy and slow" removed in place for the blurred-Egg rolling frame on frame 48 to start on frame 31 instead.
-This indirectly buffs the initial velocity of a Grounded Egg Roll once landing on the floor.



16px-Buff.png
Remove the Eggsquat mechanic.
-Going from 3F → 0.



16px-Buff.png
Initialize Egg Roll's Eggjump to begin on-landing.
-From frame 48 → 31.
-The 48th frame of the blurry-looking Egg is the first frame you can begin an eggsquat leading up to frame 51 being the Eggjump frame. Make frame 31 that instance. In other words, severely reduce the time you are able to input the Eggjump.



16px-Buff.png
Reduce 5 frames / 10 frames from Grounded Eggbreak endlag
-From frame 45 / 40 → 35.



16px-Buff.png
Reduce 5 frames from Aerial Eggbreak endlag
-From frame 40 → 35.



16px-Buff.png
Reduce 5 / 10 frames from Ground Eggbreak endlag with hitting a shield or hurtbox
-During frames 31 - 46, from frame 45 → 35.
-During frame 47 & onward, from frame 40 → 35.



16px-Buff.png
Increase the hitbox size of the rolling Egg to more than just the yolk
-Make it the whole Egg shell.

(Similarly to how Jigglypuff herself is the hitbox when talking about Rest.)


16px-Buff.png
Increase base damages and damage-scaling slightly
-If Frame 31 deals 12.0%, make it deal 13.0%.
-Scale the damage around maximum rolling velocity.



16px-Buff.png
Increase the lateral air speed slightly. This goes toward:
-the initial "rising" & "descending" animations during the startup before landing on frame 31.
-aerial Egg drifting forward or backward.



16px-Buff.png
Insert important buff(s) here. (Something to do with its terrible priority against projectiles)


The End.
Thanks for reading Yoshiboards. I hope someone who can influence the developing / balance team can change Egg Roll.
 

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Last edited:

Masonomace

Yeah Shulk, get stuck in!
Joined
Apr 10, 2010
Messages
4,622
Location
Independence, MO
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Masonomace
Reserved post.

For the topic, I did not include them in the OP, but these are my personal buffs aside from being meta:

16px-Buff.png
Reduce the vulnerability of Egg breaking into a walled surface.
-From frame 24 → 12.
-Basically is implying that the first frame you can break the egg is reduced.


16px-Buff.png
Add a new hitbox to the Eggbreak against a walled surface.
-From 0 → Frames 1 - 13.
-Since frame 14 is the first frame Yoshi physically breaks out.


16px-Buff.png
Add a new hitbox to the Eggbreak animation while being grounded, or in the air.


16px-Buff.png
Add a new hitbox to Aerial Egg falling.


16px-Buff.png
Remove Egg's innate mechanic of having an Eggsquat.
-From 3F → 0.
-This mostly stems from the fact that a design flaw about the squat comes from hitting a shield during that 3F window, causing the Eggjump to vanish & lose the input.


16px-Buff.png
Allow the back-side of a falling airborne Egg to be broken by a walled surface.
-It's so that now both the front & backside of the Egg shell can break against surfaces.


16px-Buff.png
Increase the jump force from Eggjump to be more apparent.
 
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