Editorial: A Smashing Debate, Part 5 (Finale)

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February 2016. The last batch of Smash DLC was released to the public including the latest Fire Emblem protagonist, Corrin, and everyone’s favorite Umbra Witch, Bayonetta – or is she everyone’s “favorite” Umbra Witch? Well, we’re here again in the Smashing Debate to discuss it!

Earlier this year, Spanish community leader Greward announced to the world that Spain would be banning Bayonetta, however, Smash España (the Spanish community hub) has not given an official statement. Time has only made this debate grown even more intense.

Today we brought Greward to give his personal opinion on this matter. But first as always, a warning and disclaimer.

WARNING​

Excessive use of salt can give a bad taste to your meals – and to your opinions too! So we recommend not using it and keeping a healthy diet and a likeable attitude in such a delicate discussion.

DISCLAIMER​

The following article does not reflect the opinion of Smashboards, the Back Room, or the Spanish community as a whole. The special guest is here to give his PERSONAL opinion and he’s not here to speak on behalf of Spain.

The Issue​

Ever since the release of the last batch of DLC, many tier lists have reflected the Bayo Effect, with the Umbra Witch dethroning the Sheikah. Many people say that she’s "even more broken than Brawl Meta Knight," while others say that she is not broken at all. A separation in opinions is tangible, and we are here to discuss it.

The Perspectives​

Pro-Ban: Her Up-B comes out on frame 4 which is too fast, and her Dive Kick is unpunishable; she has many good options and she can do amazing, difficult-to-DI zero-to-death combos (02D), or just rack up a lot of damage.

Pro-Choice: Many of her other moves are punishable, and her specials can be DI’d away from with the correct input. With patience, knowledge, and the correct tools, any character in Smash 4 can be defeated, including Bayonetta.

Our Opinions
Greward​

I know with all certainty that Bayonetta is by far, the best character in the game and that she is more troublesome than any other character in the Smash saga.

Most Anti-Ban arguments are based on her not having as many high-level results as other characters in America, but I think that the reason behind that is because top level players simply don’t want to play her; they know she is too broken to play, and that if they do everyone would have to; essentially killing the game. They are probably waiting for some patch that fixes things before drastic measures have to be taken.

Personally I’m Pro-Ban, even though it hurts me. I enjoy playing against superior characters, and winning against a Bayonetta is something that the public loves. Unfortunately, for the sake of our game, she has to disappear.

Hangman​

Bayonetta had instantly become a polarizing entity in the Smash 4 community. Her plethora of combos, kill confirms, 02Ds, and individual tools make her a dynamic force never before seen among the cast. While many people feel she may be too powerful and deserves banning, the often-cited case of her similarity to Brawl Meta Knight is brought up too frequently. I feel that treating them as the same is simply absurd.

Without discussing too much of what made Meta Knight an unrelenting force in Brawl, it is worth noting that he had tools that abused most of the mechanics available within the game and was able to utilize them in a seamless way that caused the metagame to develop completely around his presence.

Bayonetta does not have the same impact on Smash 4’s current metagame and in my opinion never will live up to the precedent set by Meta Knight. Bayonetta has a unique style of play that holds a strong resemblance to more traditional fighting games. In a genre where 02Ds, mix-up heavy movesets, poorly balanced unique mechanics, and distinct differences in viability are nothing new, Bayonetta appears on par for the course rather than the exception to the rule for Smash Bros.

Now, what does this mean for Smash 4? In my opinion, players should be studying information on Bayonetta the same way that traditional fighting game players have to study up on characters that they will play against in order to know how to counter what’s going to be brought up to the arena.

As the information is steadily becoming available and being spread, it moves the duty of knowing exactly what makes Bayonetta a tour de force in the current metagame to the players and commentators.Those who can bring her to a top level of play should be respected for their play rather than lambasted for playing her the way she is designed to be played.

Diosdi​

Bayonetta is not even close to the worst balance example of balancing in the saga. Meta Knight in Brawl could do three UpAirs in a row; he could do a whole lap through Temple without touching the ground. Fox in Melee could do four UpAirs in a row and had almost no negative match ups. Bayonetta’s 02D combos are circumstantial and can be DI’d with proper timing and knowledge.

If we never banned Meta Knight or Fox or Pikachu at their apex, why would we do it to Bayonetta? Banning a character is taking away from a player its main. We can't do it without alienating people that play the game.

People say that Bayonetta is toxic, but bans are toxic.

If we banned Fox in Melee, how many people would lose their main just because some people don’t want to learn a MU? It sounds illogical and unfair. Bayonetta has shown tremendous popularity in tournaments in the last month or two, and a lot of people would be left without a main character if she were banned.

Her combos are circumstantial and can be DI’d out of properly, her neutral game is simply bad and relies on her variations of Side-B to start combos, her jab is one of the slowest in the game, and finally, her kill moves are predictable.

Banning a character just because people know how to play is not a measure for the sake of the game. It is a john.

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So what do you think? Is Bayo THAT good? Should she be banned? Let us know!

Author's Note: So this marks the end of our Smashing Debate series. I would like to give a special thanks to all of our collaborators: Nova, One Hit Smash, Hangman, OneSmash, and this debate's special guest, Greward. Please be sure to follow all of them on Twitter.

 

#FreeBayonetta

 

As with wobbling, Bayonetta is so good at a low level of play. It gives players free local brackets and regional pools.
I think she shouldn't be banned, but we should still take into account that she is absolutely broken.

 

Reposting:

The problem here isn't how good Bayonetta is – it's how she's good. As in, what she does in order to become so effective is detrimental to the game (if some of the things that I've been hearing in these threads are true). Her not having won a major is A) probably just due to how new she is, and B) not related to the issue. Bayonetta being the best character in the game? Nothing wrong with that, there's bound to be one. Top tier? No issue. It's what makes her so effective and the nature of her design as a fighter that makes her detrimental to the game. (Although, her top-tier-ness does make the problem more widespread since she's used by more players.)

Bayonetta can kill you off of a jab read and perform zero-deaths out of mobility tools. She can kill you off of a jab read and zero-death out of low-lag mobility tools. That just plain breaks the flow of Smash as a fighter. "But she's not OP, you can punish it by playing a super-careful keep-away game!" Yeah, but it still breaks the game. I'm not talking about overpoweredness, I'm talking about how Bayonetta makes the game less enjoyable for everyone involved, since the opponent is encouraged – forced, even – to play a slow, campy, honestly quite boring playstyle. Nobody likes watching or playing a slow, campy match.

This is also different from Brawl Meta Knight, because Meta Knight was simply overpowered, not fundamentally game-breaking. In a MK ditto, you still at the very least play Smash normally. You space around with safe moves to get an opening (a neutral game). You have to build up percent to win. etc. MK only "broke the game" in terms of balance, since those playing MK had an unfair advantage over those who played other characters. Bayonetta dittos, though, will have the same fundamental problems as any other Bayo match. You can get punished off of super-safe moves thanks to Witch Time. She can kill you at 0% with a few DI reads / reactions. It's more like the Ice Climbers really, with their chaingrabs and wobbling and whatnot. (If the Ice Climbers couldn't escape another IC duo's chaingrabs thanks to Nana that is, although I guess Bayo has that frame-one dodge stuff that can escape combos... but anyway.)

Bottom line:
Our goal as a community is to make the game as enjoyable as possible. If Bayonetta's presence in any given match makes the game less enjoyable, then excluding her from all matches will make the game more enjoyable as a whole.

Disclaimers:

• WE SHOULD NOT JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS BEFORE TESTING THIS THOROUGHLY. While the above seems to be the problem, it's very possible that there's a way to effectively combat Bayonetta without making the game less enjoyable. If time passes and this doesn't happen, however, I believe a ban is called for.
• Some of this stuff has probably already said earlier in this thread or other ones. Just sharing my stance.
• I'm not a very experienced competitive player outside of a buncha For Glory matches, and I'm taking people's word for a lot of things I bring up here. Don't quote me on this stuff, I'm working with the assumption that people aren't giving false info.

 

She needs a NERF but she ain't even broken.

Especially considering she doesn't rank head and shoulders above every character


Remember, she gets ****ed by characters with projectiles like and Cloud is much stronger than her IMO

 

"Many people say that she’s "even more broken than Brawl Meta Knight," while others say that she is not broken at all."

That's uh, not something I've really seen in the Bayonetta Ban discussion. In fact most people who want her banned are saying she's closer to the Brawl ICs and isn't like Brawl Meta Knight: where's she's certainly beatable, might even have one or two losing MUs, but the risk:reward ratio is way too heavily weighted in her favour.

 

She needs a NERF but she ain't even broken.

Especially considering she doesn't rank head and shoulders above every character


Remember, she gets ****ed by characters with projectiles like and Cloud is much stronger than her IMO

This is surprisingly accurate. I main Robin and Megaman and have no problem beatg Bayonetta.

 

[deleting]

 

Bayonetta's accused of being broken?

BETTER NERF GRENINJA!

 

I don't think she should be banned until people get to know how she plays. Like was Mentioned in the post, we had to get to know how Fox plays, and how to counter him vs. just banning him right away. Banning someone this soon after they're released seems too quick and like a gut reaction. We should have her be legal for at least a few more months, see how it goes, and if she's still conquering everything, then we might want to reconsider then.

 

I feel that comparing Bayo to Melee Fox is just muddling the issue. High-level Melee play requires much, much more technical skill.
On the topic at hand, Bayonetta is just too good at too many things. I'm not saying she's unbeatable, but if she isn't nerfed soon, I predict that more people will start using her until it's nothing but her, Shiek, and a few other characters, much like the Melee meta.
I'll close with ZeRo's words:

 

I think it's too early to give Bayonetta a ban, but we shouldn't forget the fact that if there wasn't a problem, this discussion wouldn't be going on.

To me the problem with Bayonetta lies in her low risk/ high reward gameplay. She is capable of doing 02D combo's with a lower effort than the rest of the cast, and many of her options just simply put her in a better position. She has some weaknesses (such as a bad neutral and not great frame data) but it is much easier for the Bayo player to work around these than it is for the opponent to use them in his/her favour. This results in a lot of players having to make a larger amount of effort just to keep up, let alone win. Witch Time in and of itself is notorious for being an absolute headache. Bat Within makes it extremely hard to punish this if you aren't in a position to grab (such as delaying a charged smash to avoid the counter).

Usage has been picking up here in the UK as the Top 8 at Albion had quite a few Bayonetta players IIRC. We need to wait longer to know if Bayonetta's "problems" are just an on-paper thing or if drastic measures are an absolute necessity.

 

Banning her right now is a bad idea imo.

She hasn't done anything that is banworthy outright.

edit: The only, and I mean the only thing I find convincing would be is if she was causing people to quit in droves. That is the only thing I found convincing.

 

idk about how the Spain community is, but there's a "community leader" for the whole of Spain? How does that work?

 

idk about how the Spain community is, but there's a "community leader" for the whole of Spain? How does that work?

My guess is kinda like the voting system in America

 

If you're gonna argue that that Melee Fox is more unbalanced than Baynetta, you need to stop writing articles on smashboards.

 

I also want to mention how easy Bayonetta is to pick up and win. I almost got beat by a player who started playing Bayonetta a week beforehand, and only had played Smash for a week.
All you have to do is memorize easy combos and it is a win. She is broken and needs to be dealt with.

 

"zero to ddeath"

"not broken"
????
this character combos and kills more easily than project m lucario,

build a bear combos
build a combo workshop,
hurry up and get her outta here. i dont even play smash 4

 

I feel that comparing Bayo to Melee Fox is just muddling the issue. High-level Melee play requires much, much more technical skill.
On the topic at hand, Bayonetta is just too good at too many things. I'm not saying she's unbeatable, but if she isn't nerfed soon, I predict that more people will start using her until it's nothing but her, Shiek, and a few other characters, much like the Melee meta.
I'll close with ZeRo's words:

Melee isn't just a few characters though. You see over half the cast used in tournaments .

 

Bayonetta's accused of being broken?

BETTER NERF GRENINJA!

U scumbag

 

Banning would send a message to Nintendo that she needs to be patched. Patching simply wasn't even an option in Melee, so it would have no chance to affect that change.

 

U scumbag

You have the best username of all time. You deserve a medal

 

If you're gonna argue that that Melee Fox is more unbalanced than Baynetta, you need to stop writing articles on smashboards.

Bayonetta has losing MUs. Fox doesn't. Fox also has multiple 90-10 (or worse) MUs. Bayonetta doesn't (or they are a significantly smaller fraction).

I don't know what world you live inow (maybe one where Melee has 4 to 8 characters?), but if you looked at all of Melee, Fox in Melee is far more busted than Bayonetta in Smash 4 is.

Also,

Reposting:

Your "bottom line" is a joke. Ganondorf gets tree camped so ridiculously by Sonic on Duck Hunt (and camped in general) that I am confident Sonic makes games much less enjoyable, but that'a a piss-poor excuse for a ban. MK had the roofio in Brawl too (yay 20+ hit true combos), so I think you underestimate what he could do.

Also, I throughly enjoyed Apex 2012 grands (have watched it more than once) and enjoy Link Puff on Dreamland in Melee (and similar matchups in Smash 4, like watching Villager ROB or whatever). Go take your bad generalizations elsewhere.

 

Bayonetta has losing MUs. Fox doesn't. Fox also has multiple 90-10 (or worse) MUs. Bayonetta doesn't (or they are a significantly smaller fraction).

I don't know what world you live inow (maybe one where Melee has 4 to 8 characters?), but if you looked at all of Melee, Fox in Melee is far more busted than Bayonetta in Smash 4 is.

This might be my complete and utter lack of Melee knowledge showing, but I don't recall Fox having the kind of 0-deaths that Bayonetta has?

Also,


Your "bottom line" is a joke. Ganondorf gets tree camped so ridiculously by Sonic on Duck Hunt (and camped in general) that I am confident Sonic makes games much less enjoyable, but that'a a piss-poor excuse for a ban.

Ganon is one underused, underpowered character. Duck Hunt is a single stage. This is a very specific situation, and one that rarely happens (due to Ganon being such a rare character; this is much more a result of Ganon's incompetence as a fighter than of Sonic's "brokenness.")

Bayonetta's zero-to-deaths, on the other hand, can be performed no matter the stage, and no matter the character; and Bayonetta's surge in popularity makes this a very nonspecific situation. This is not an apt comparison.

MK had the roofio in Brawl too (yay 20+ hit true combos), so I think you underestimate what he could do.

From what percent does this KO? (Also, video link?)

Also, I throughly enjoyed Apex 2012 grands (have watched it more than once) and enjoy Link Puff on Dreamland in Melee. Go take your bad generalizations elsewhere.

Taking a glance at the video archive, I can't say I agree. Taking a glance at its comment section on YouTube, I can't say that a clear majority does either.

This is all, of course, subjective. But I see a lot more people complaining about slow matches than I do about fast ones.

 

Comparing MK and Fox is the worst thing ever since those characters actually require technical knowledge of the character and game as for Bayonetta, we've been seeing the combos since day one and most of them since week two. Fox took years to accomplish the amount of tech that can be applied to him, and MK .... Well I'm not to familiar with tbh. With Bayonetta, it's one YouTube video, smash fundamentals, and enjoy your spot in your local top 8 PR.

 

I don't know what to think. But if anyone does something about then i would prefer a

over a flat-out ban.

 

Guys...Guys. We all know what we have to with Bayonetta...

-Vader

 

Comparing MK and Fox is the worst thing ever since those characters actually require technical knowledge of the character and game as for Bayonetta, we've been seeing the combos since day one and most of them since week two. Fox took years to accomplish the amount of tech that can be applied to him, and MK .... Well I'm not to familiar with tbh. With Bayonetta, it's one YouTube video, smash fundamentals, and enjoy your spot in your local top 8 PR.

Dunno if I know what I'm talking about, but Bayo still has counterplay after all that, whereas MK and Fox are pretty solid once you learn them properly.

 

*laughs loudly*

The fact that ppl want to ban her despite all her weaknesses and counterplays actually developing as well as people with little understanding to how she works is hilarious

Why is this still a debate? Shes not broken, shes not toxic, there is nothing overly wrong with her.

Stop trying to ban things that dont need or have any reason to be banned and play the game lol

 

Characters are much more than combos, but I digress.

People have this idea that as soon as Bayo touches you, you die. A whole bunch of 0 to deaths off anything. That's completely false. Bayo gets discussed fairly often on the competitive impressions thread, and a lot of stuff is better understood.

One is her damage output and zero to deaths. There was a user who took a few matches (from 9B I believe) and averaged out Bayo's damage output off a hit or witch time that leads into a combo. It was found that Bayo combos do about 20-25% each, on average. That's a far cry from "omg 0 to death everyone all the time with inescapable combos".

There's been further developments into figuring out how to escape all these combos. Beefy Smash Doods has a Bayo video showing how to DI common Bayo combos. It was made extraordinarily clear that 0 to deaths require a series of 50/50 or sometimes 66/33 reads. This is the reason that Bayo is averaging 20% a combo. There's also been further developments into SDI. If you SDI her second up-b upwards, there's very little or nothing she could do to combo you, and this takes away one of her most common kill confirm.

Another thing that was discussed by a particular user on the competitive impressions thread was the concept of oppression vs explosion. Pre-patch Sheik was definitely better than Bayo. That's because Sheik was oppressive, she dominated neutral. However, you always felt like you were in the game even when you couldn't land a hit in because you normally deal more damage than Sheik and could kill her earlier. She was oppressive in the neutral. Bayo is an explosive character. She is not oppressive at all, but a single mistake and you get blown up, or at least you feel like you do. That's why there is so much more hate to Bayo (a worse character) than pre-patch Sheik; a single mistake makes you feel like you lost. Think back to pre-patch Luigi, he was hated a lot even though he wasn't the best. This is further exasperated by the fact that most people like telling themselves that DI never works.

Bayonetta is still the best character, but please, stop thinking that she is 02D: The Character. She isn't. At all. She's a character with a tame neutral, great disadvantage, and the potential to kill really, really early with a series of reads or specific conditions.

 

This might be my complete and utter lack of Melee knowledge showing, but I don't recall Fox having the kind of 0-deaths that Bayonetta has?

Ganon is one underused, underpowered character. Duck Hunt is a single stage. This is a very specific situation, and one that rarely happens (due to Ganon being such a rare character; this is much more a result of Ganon's incompetence as a fighter than of Sonic's "brokenness.")

Bayonetta's zero-to-deaths, on the other hand, can be performed no matter the stage, and no matter the character; and Bayonetta's surge in popularity makes this a very nonspecific situation. This is not an apt comparison.

From what percent does this KO? (Also, video link?)

Taking a glance at the video archive, I can't say I agree. Taking a glance at its comment section on YouTube, I can't say that a clear majority does either.

This is all, of course, subjective. But I see a lot more people complaining about slow matches than I do about fast ones.

Fox shine offstage is a 02D for many in Melee.

Also using ad populum doesn't elevate your argument.

The MK ladder in Brawl was a hard tech in Brawl, best done on BF cuz of platform layout. For many, it started at 15%

 

*laughs loudly*

The fact that ppl want to ban her despite all her weaknesses and counterplays actually developing as well as people with little understanding to how she works is hilarious

Why is this still a debate? Shes not broken, shes not toxic, there is nothing overly wrong with her.

Stop trying to ban things that dont need or have any reason to be banned and play the game lol

People don't wanna learn or develop a different playstyle.

Smash players here have one mindset, "GO IN HARD OR GO HOME" and if they can't do that, it's camping and it's bad and boring.

All you gotta do is Zone Bayo out and that's it but nope, it's too boring and bad so let's just ban her and watch her get nerf and people complain because people played her that way and people who hate her will say 'she didn't deserve it'


Sounds familiar . Smash fans are freaking babies and that's the truth. That much complaining killed PM's meta because "WE GOTTA NERF EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING BECAUSE MY CHARACTER ISN'T WINNING"


This is why competitive Smash is still somewhat of a joke

 

She needs a NERF but she ain't even broken.

Especially considering she doesn't rank head and shoulders above every character


Remember, she gets ****ed by characters with projectiles like and Cloud is much stronger than her IMO

Olimar gets rekt by Bayonetta. If she has a pikmin on her, she can activate witch time at will.

 

Olimar gets rekt by Bayonetta. If she has a pikmin on her, she can activate witch time at will.

Witch Time doesn't activate unless a Physical move connects or is close to an opponent.

If you use Witch Time on a Projectile, she activates it but it doesn't do anything. Witch Time sucks on projectiles.

 

"Many people say that she’s "even more broken than Brawl Meta Knight," while others say that she is not broken at all."

That's uh, not something I've really seen in the Bayonetta Ban discussion. In fact most people who want her banned are saying she's closer to the Brawl ICs and isn't like Brawl Meta Knight: where's she's certainly beatable, might even have one or two losing MUs, but the risk:reward ratio is way too heavily weighted in her favour.

I've definately heard people complaining about bayonetta say shes worse than metaknight

 

O2D aren't true anymore. Do your research guys.

This also men's bayo can't O2D you off of witch time. She doesn't have time to do any other setup besides the various 02D setups.

At most, her Up b OOS and punish game is dumb, but that's good.

 

Wow, Greward has such bad arguments. Like, really.
---
Cloud is an easier and much better character than Bayonetta, who also has kill confirms with his Finishing Touch. But guess what? Since he's so noob friendly, OP and so easy to play players don't complain about him since he benefits them. But Bayonetta, who actually is a technical character and not a "pick up to win"-character unlike Cloud, they go all haywire. Heck, Ryu is more stupid and OP than what Bayonetta ever will be. But where's the Ryu hate? Also, Sheik is still a better character than Bayonetta and despite this people still want to complain about how "broken" Bayonetta is. And those guys who want to ban Bayonetta but never considered/consider banning Sheik deserves to be Witch timed so hard.

Yes, Bayonetta is a ridiculous character, but not in the same way that Sheik, Ryu and Cloud are. Please. Her neutral isn't even that good and she can't approach reliably either.

If Brawl Meta Knight and Ice Climbers's infinite chaingrab weren't banned, then nothing deserves to be banned.

 

This might be my complete and utter lack of Melee knowledge showing, but I don't recall Fox having the kind of 0-deaths that Bayonetta has?

Ganon is one underused, underpowered character. Duck Hunt is a single stage. This is a very specific situation, and one that rarely happens (due to Ganon being such a rare character; this is much more a result of Ganon's incompetence as a fighter than of Sonic's "brokenness.")

Bayonetta's zero-to-deaths, on the other hand, can be performed no matter the stage, and no matter the character; and Bayonetta's surge in popularity makes this a very nonspecific situation. This is not an apt comparison.

From what percent does this KO? (Also, video link?)

Taking a glance at the video archive, I can't say I agree. Taking a glance at its comment section on YouTube, I can't say that a clear majority does either.

This is all, of course, subjective. But I see a lot more people complaining about slow matches than I do about fast ones.

Almost out of battery, but Fox has a wave shine infinite on multiple members of the cast. SdI can mitigate but he can shine -> offstage shine parts of the cast if you slip up position even a little and KO you at about 10% with it (from 0). I could also link zero to deaths he has done from top players (or various combo videos that show them) - like Bayp stuff they are DI dependent but they are also flexible (uair chains can be absurd, especially extended on Battlefield).

Sonic (and Sheik and Pikachu and more) can actually also tree camp a variety of characters (Ganondorf, Little Mac, and anyone without a potent uair or slow upwards mobility, like Puff Kirby Robin etc.). There is also Sonic timing people out on other stages, but I digress. The game being less fun is a terrible reason to ban something. Many people dislike Rosa (or did, DLC may have diverted focus from her), but Luma making the game unfun is a joke of an excuse for banning her. Also, Bayo zero-to-deaths where she finishes with up+b uair don't work if you SDI correctly (Tyroy helped ESAM make a video about it).

On mobile so it is tricky at best, but in Brawl MK uair true combo'd into itself because it was frame 2-4 (roughly) and IASA frame 14, and you could Mach Tornado and mash B to carry people off the top. It was rather early percents (I recall seeing one occur at ~50% after the combo was done) bit I'll need to watch several sets to track one down for you.

People complaining about how the game is played is again a pathetic reason to ban something unless it is actually degenerate (Fox on Temple). Just because a minority of the community dislikes it does not mean it should be banned, or else we'd need a ban on Villagers who like to plank, which is absurd. People seem to think watching Fox and Falco abuse extremely high mobility in a game with dubious movement tools is entertaining, so a match where that does not happen is "boring" because they can'take be bothered to dissect what is going on, they just want explosions. I wish I could link an SF video where someone wins a hard MU by basically ducking in the corner for most of the match - almost literally no one minds and many praise the strategy because it is effective. If only such a metric were used for smash games...

 

[deleting]

 

I hate Bayonetta. Sma4sh had such amazing balance that Bayonetta completely ruined.