(Editorial) A Case for Customs: What We Can Learn from Smaller Competitive Communities

Have any of you guys ever heard of Team Fortress 2?

Of course you have. Everyone who's been into gaming for any significant amount of time has heard of TF2. Its arguably one of the most addictive online shooters out there, and its built up a momentous fanbase over it's almost ten years of existence. Chances are if you haven't played it, you've at least seen it, and acquired a significant level of knowledge through osmosis alone.

But did you know TF2 has a really hardcore competitive community?

Who would've thought, right? And it isn't just a few guys getting together every couple of weeks to play teams: we're talking thousands of people, multiple leagues, ranking ladders and a variety of game modes - the most popular of which is Highlander, a 9v9 mode where only one player is allowed per class. In this mode, each team is forced to display not only which has the best players in their respective aspect of the game, but also which has the best synergy and ability to strategize in the moment.

Of course, turning what was originally imagined as a casual, "play for fun" game into a competitive experience wasn't easy: several of the maps and game-modes in TF2 just aren't fun to watch or play at a higher level, becoming frustratingly unbalanced in favor of certain classes or agonizingly slow once organized teams are brought into the mix. Because of this, Leagues usually only use a handful of the existing game modes and pick out a few of the existing maps, even going as far as to customize some of them to better suit competitive play.

Sound familiar?

Unlockables are another point of contention for competitive players, and the way they handle this is what I find most interesting. For those not in the know, TF2 allows its players to create custom loadouts for each of their classes by equipping them with a variety of unlockable weapons. Not only does this give players an extra layer of personalization, it also makes classes more viable for situations where they would otherwise struggle. They're referred to as "sidegrades", since they're not meant to be an improvement over the stock weapons, but tools to be used by players in case their classes' default arsenal isn't sufficient.

For the most part, these weapons are loved by the community: besides adding a new layer of complexity to the game, they also make some of the classes straight up more fun to play. But seeing how the game is balanced around chaotic 12v12 play, some of them become straight upgrades to their default counterparts when brought to Highlander. This causes the problem of not only having an element in the game that has little to no counterplay, but also eliminating all variety in weapon choices by having a "superior" option above the rest.

How do competitive leagues get around this? Simple: they ban said weapons. Before the beginning of each competitive season, most leagues will allow their users to vote on which weapons they think should be taken out of/put back into rotation. This helps keep the game balanced in a way that keeps the community happy while also fomenting discussion amongst players (especially from top-level players to people in lower divisions) to come to a consensus as to which weapons should and shouldn't be allowed.

Of course, I'm not just saying we should blindly copy this system for Smash 4, but I feel it gives us something to think about. Customs have been a source of controversy for the community ever since the game was released, and the arguments and feelings for each side are so strong most people have decided to drop the issue altogether. After all, why risk creating a huge split in the community (and alienating most competitive players while we're at it) when Smash 4 works perfectly fine as it is?

Although the mindset is reasonable, I do believe we as a scene are doing ourselves a huge disservice by not at least discussing ways in which we could make customs work for competitive. “The Custom Moveset Project” proposes an alternative not unlike the one the TF2 community uses: it’s one of the many options worth checking out, and the amount of support it has gotten proves that there’s a part of the community that wants to see this happen.

For a lot of players, customs as a whole may seem unnecessary, but I feel we owe it to ourselves to think about what they could contribute to tournament level play, what they could do to benefit our scene, and whether or not we really want to risk missing out on those benefits for fear of trying something new.

 

Why should we do it tho? We saw what happened with Custom moves amd what's happening with Three vs Two stocks arguments. These "innovative" rulesets are fragmenting the scene, do you remember what happened last EVO with customs? I would rather keep a conservative ruleset than risking the destiny of our community with something like this.

 

There's now more Mii news articles than there are Mii players.

 

This is excellent. It's also worth noting that we will have community splits no matter what decision is struck. Without legalization, we get the push we have now, and with legalization, we get our pre-EVO community.

I personally think all customs don't present huge problems, especially since large swaths of Wii U systems have EVO 2015 loadouts. Though ten loadouts doesn't account for all player preferences, it gets much closer for relatively low logistical cost.

However, if unlocking moves is so bad, or if customs are that broken, allowing Mii customs to follow a TF2-like paradigm makes a lot of sense.

Honestly, I haven't seen a great case against custom moves that doesn't extend beyond "they're dumb," or "if you aren't a top player you can't argue." Given that lack of coherence, I see no downside to extending the diversity, and by consequence the lifetime, of this wonderful game.

Seriously. It can't be any worse than Witch Time.

 

do you remember what happened last EVO with customs?

You mean, how it became the largest Sm4sh tournament to date, despite having an extremely liberal ruleset? Yes, the majority decided to not continue playing with customs, but they were shown to logistically work at a massive scale.

 

I think that there is certainly the potential that customs could really offer something great to competitive smash. However having said that, I think we might just need to let the dust settle before we go ahead and strike the match.

Some characters have really not been explored to their full potential as they are without customs. Until the community has had time to digest the game as it is, I don't think that customs proposals will be given the time of day.

Eventually though I do hope that people start to look at what they can get from customs. I favor the idea of using them to create a sort of community balance patch. At least for the low tier characters, but maybe in the long run for the high tier ones as well. In the meantime I'll just work on my Sheik.

 

You mean, how it became the largest Sm4sh tournament to date, despite having an extremely liberal ruleset? Yes, the majority decided to not continue playing with customs, but they were shown to logistically work at a massive scale.

Not to mention it was won with a stock loadout. Ooooooh, scary!

Besides, the game has become more aggressive overall. Big swings one way or the other. I have no doubt the community would figure out how to keep that running with custom moves.

 

Why should we do it tho? We saw what happened with Custom moves amd what's happening with Three vs Two stocks arguments. These "innovative" rulesets are fragmenting the scene, do you remember what happened last EVO with customs? I would rather keep a conservative ruleset than risking the destiny of our community with something like this.

Honestly? We don't need to. As I mentioned in the article, Smash 4 works perfectly in a competitive environment without them. But by not at least trying to make customs work, we could be ignoring a great amount of the game's potential.

Think about Melee. Where would the game be if, when wavedashing was first discovered, most of the community had disregarded it as an ubalanced exploit and decided to ban it from tournaments? Would the meta have reached the level of intricate technical play that it's at today? Would people still be playing it over a decade after its release?

Perhaps the comparison isn't quite accurate, but I stand by my point. Smash 4 is already a fantastically complex game, and I'm of the belief we're barely scratching the tip of the iceberg when it comes to it's mechanical intricacies, but by allowing customs and finding a way to make them work we're opening the door to a world of possibilities that could make it into that much more of an involving competitive experience.

 

Why should we do it tho? We saw what happened with Custom moves amd what's happening with Three vs Two stocks arguments. These "innovative" rulesets are fragmenting the scene, do you remember what happened last EVO with customs? I would rather keep a conservative ruleset than risking the destiny of our community with something like this.

Kk.....I watched the whole EVO stream and watch an extensive amount of 3 stock games. Please tell me how at least 3 stock is a problem? The people that ultimately that make the game whatever stock are TOs, not viewers or players. If you've ever played in either, you would learn to appreciate 3 stock as with 2 stock can have lots of stupid SDs determine games.

 

You mean, how it became the largest Sm4sh tournament to date, despite having an extremely liberal ruleset? Yes, the majority decided to not continue playing with customs, but they were shown to logistically work at a massive scale.

EVO became the largest Smasn 4 tournament because well, it is EVO! Not because the ruleset was "good" in fact most top players complained about the ruleset and after EVO customs died. Are custom moves in 2016 EVO rulseset? Of course not and they will never be because of last year's EVO. Customs had a horrible showcase on it and that's pretty much a fact.

The people that ultimately that make the game whatever stock are TOs, not viewers or players. If you've ever played in either, you would learn to appreciate 3 stock as with 2 stock can have lots of stupid SDs determine games.

If you've some common sense, you would realize that TOs base their rulesets on what players and viewers want and what TOs can do. The funny part is that I didn't even attacked the 3 stock format and you come raging at me about a topic that's poorly adressed in the community. Seriously, I knew I was posting an unpopular opinion, but at least I was expecting more well-thought-out counter-arguments like the one notsuchabadguy gave.

 

There's now more Mii news articles than there are Mii players.

Unfortunate.

Though I'm sure there would be more Mii players if the rulings weren't so convoluted and inconsistent everywhere.

 

Why is there so much support for customs? What they bring to the table and what they actually add for the game as a whole are very small. We saw what customs meant for EVO last year, and we ran customs tourneys as a community. We experimented with the idea, but it was largely a failure. Why do people keep wanting to bring it back? Like, outside of villager and DK's bull****, there is still more jank hidden within other character's customs.
And another thing, if a character's competitive viability depends on weather or not customs are on, that really says a lot for how broken customs are and why we SHOULDN'T use them.

 

Why is there so much support for customs? What they bring to the table and what they actually add for the game as a whole are very small. We saw what customs meant for EVO last year, and we ran customs tourneys as a community. We experimented with the idea, but it was largely a failure. Why do people keep wanting to bring it back? Like, outside of villager and DK's bull****, there is still more jank hidden within other character's customs.
And another thing, if a character's competitive viability depends on weather or not customs are on, that really says a lot for how broken customs are and why we SHOULDN'T use them.

I think the common belief is that we didn't give customs a fair enough shot back in the day. The state of the meta was very different, our knowledge of the game was much barer and we had little to no understanding of how they could hurt and benefit high level play.

We've since grown wiser, and it seems as if the discussion is shifting from "should customs be allowed or not?" towards the more reasonable "what systems can we implement so that customs can be allowed while still keeping the game fun for most people?".

And perhaps those systems aren't yet ready to be implemented, but I believe that the Smash community is now big enough that we can afford to have a discussion and experiment with alternatives before dropping the idea altogether. In the end, we all want to see the game we love grow, and taking calculated risks is the only way in which we're going to see that happen.

 

Why is there so much support for customs? What they bring to the table and what they actually add for the game as a whole are very small. We saw what customs meant for EVO last year, and we ran customs tourneys as a community. We experimented with the idea, but it was largely a failure. Why do people keep wanting to bring it back? Like, outside of villager and DK's bull****, there is still more jank hidden within other character's customs.
And another thing, if a character's competitive viability depends on weather or not customs are on, that really says a lot for how broken customs are and why we SHOULDN'T use them.

Whoa, it's like you didn't even read the article

 

But can I buy customs for $5.99?

 

I think the common belief is that we didn't give customs a fair enough shot back in the day. The state of the meta was very different, our knowledge of the game was much barer and we had little to no understanding of how they could hurt and benefit high level play.

We've since grown wiser, and it seems as if the discussion is shifting from "should customs be allowed or not?" towards the more reasonable "what systems can we implement so that customs can be allowed while still keeping the game fun for most people?".

And perhaps those systems aren't yet ready to be implemented, but I believe that the Smash community is now big enough that we can afford to have a discussion and experiment with alternatives before dropping the idea altogether. In the end, we all want to see the game we love grow, and taking calculated risks is the only way in which we're going to see that happen.

personally, I believe the prime reason that people call almost anything broken is due to the fact that they haven't devised a counter for it. sure, there are some things that can cause an entire metagame to revolve around, but from my standpoint, that should prompt people to put extra effort in conquering it. banning something should only be an utmost last resort when everything else fails, lots of current players, IMO, view it like it's an easier solution... or rather, an "easy way out".

near the end of Brawl's lifespan, I've seen a few videos of european players actually devising a grab release tactic with Sheik that gave the "almighty" Meta Knight a hard time, but since Brawl's faded out soon after, it didn't take any hold. More recently, I decided to hit the lab with a friend on Villager's Extreme Balloon Trip, and while I learned I can't make it backfire, I CAN punish someone planking with it through some patience.

 

Well... I never thought I'd see the day when TF2 is mentioned on Smashboards.
But it is definitely something to think about, even if I don't support customs myself (I do support Mii movesets though).

EDIT: Now that I think about it, TF2 has 9 classes (characters) while we have well over 50. I'm not sure the same loadout logic can apply when we're already teeming with characters, but again, still worth thinking about it.

 

Why should we do it tho? We saw what happened with Custom moves amd what's happening with Three vs Two stocks arguments. These "innovative" rulesets are fragmenting the scene, do you remember what happened last EVO with customs? I would rather keep a conservative ruleset than risking the destiny of our community with something like this.

....what happened?

 

I think the common belief is that we didn't give customs a fair enough shot back in the day. The state of the meta was very different, our knowledge of the game was much barer and we had little to no understanding of how they could hurt and benefit high level play.

We've since grown wiser, and it seems as if the discussion is shifting from "should customs be allowed or not?" towards the more reasonable "what systems can we implement so that customs can be allowed while still keeping the game fun for most people?".

And perhaps those systems aren't yet ready to be implemented, but I believe that the Smash community is now big enough that we can afford to have a discussion and experiment with alternatives before dropping the idea altogether. In the end, we all want to see the game we love grow, and taking calculated risks is the only way in which we're going to see that happen.

But what do customs bring to the table? WE gave customs their spot in the sun, as we did with stages like Halberd and Umbra.

We have an understanding that customs can affect how viable a character is. For example, DK and Villager. On that note alone, that should tell you how viable and balanced customs are.

We experimented with it for months, and before we try any further exploration with it, I feel that we should strive towards a much more stable and universal ruleset, and develop the real meta of the game further.

Maybe encourage your TOs to host custom side events and talk about it in your communities, but honestly, if we want this game to grow, Im going to be frank with you and tell you that changing the entire way the game is played every half a year and being indecisive ******** about everything isnt going to help it.

And with the fun comment, I dont think you're understanding the issue at hand. No one is stopping you and your friends from playing with customs, or even practicing it. The same is true for, say, playing with items on, or equipment. And the same is true for playing outdated games, like Third Strike.

However, EVO, Apex, Genisis-- they arent about fun. They're about competition, and tests of skill, with real money on the line. There are people who play the game full time, and their livelyhood depends on these events.

****ing with the way the game is played for the sake of "having fun customs on" when the game is fine without them, I feel is not just a risk, but a stupid move.

Before I or anyone else in their communities start changing their rulesets to unpopular and largely unfair systems for the sake of experimentation for a flimsy idea of fun, we really need to ask and establish what good customs do for us. Because thats one thing that nobody really seems to have an answer for, and it sure as hell isnt addressed in the article.

What good do customs do for competitive play? What beneficial changes are brought about by customs that are so different than the real game that it warrants further testing than what we've already seen? I'm interested in having this discussion with the pro-customs community, because its not really something that I've seen a lot of people actually talk about when advocating for customs.

Whoa, it's like you didn't even read the article

I read through the bit of it that was actually about Smash, and not about competitive TF2, which I already know about. And I just re-read it again while making this post.

personally, I believe the prime reason that people call almost anything broken is due to the fact that they haven't devised a counter for it. sure, there are some things that can cause an entire metagame to revolve around, but from my standpoint, that should prompt people to put extra effort in conquering it. banning something should only be an utmost last resort when everything else fails, lots of current players, IMO, view it like it's an easier solution... or rather, an "easy way out".

near the end of Brawl's lifespan, I've seen a few videos of european players actually devising a grab release tactic with Sheik that gave the "almighty" Meta Knight a hard time, but since Brawl's faded out soon after, it didn't take any hold. More recently, I decided to hit the lab with a friend on Villager's Extreme Balloon Trip, and while I learned I can't make it backfire, I CAN punish someone planking with it through some patience.

Thats... not a good thing. Not for gameplay, not for spectatorship, and not for the meta of customs play.

Metaknight in brawl was straight up broken, there is no arguing that. It was not impossible to defeat a MK with another character, that depended on the skill of the MK and the other player. However, where MK was not banned, people would mostly play MK because why would you give yourself a handicap?

The same thing with Kong Cyclone and the counter tree and extreme balloon trip.
If you arent playing that, then you're fighting an uphill battle. Playing against them requires that you play SUPER LAME. and that is NOT GOOD for ANYONE.

 

You mean, how it became the largest Sm4sh tournament to date, despite having an extremely liberal ruleset? Yes, the majority decided to not continue playing with customs, but they were shown to logistically work at a massive scale.

Yeah, they work at a massive scale when the TOs have plenty of time and money to throw around on 3DSs and cheat devices. On the smaller scale? Not so much.

 

But what do customs bring to the table? WE gave customs their spot in the sun, as we did with stages like Halberd and Umbra.

We have an understanding that customs can affect how viable a character is. For example, DK and Villager. On that note alone, that should tell you how viable and balanced customs are.

We experimented with it for months, and before we try any further exploration with it, I feel that we should strive towards a much more stable and universal ruleset, and develop the real meta of the game further.

Maybe encourage your TOs to host custom side events and talk about it in your communities, but honestly, if we want this game to grow, Im going to be frank with you and tell you that changing the entire way the game is played every half a year and being indecisive ******** about everything isnt going to help it.

And with the fun comment, I dont think you're understanding the issue at hand. No one is stopping you and your friends from playing with customs, or even practicing it. The same is true for, say, playing with items on, or equipment. And the same is true for playing outdated games, like Third Strike.

However, EVO, Apex, Genisis-- they arent about fun. They're about competition, and tests of skill, with real money on the line. There are people who play the game full time, and their livelyhood depends on these events.

****ing with the way the game is played for the sake of "having fun customs on" when the game is fine without them, I feel is not just a risk, but a stupid move.

Before I or anyone else in their communities start changing their rulesets to unpopular and largely unfair systems for the sake of experimentation for a flimsy idea of fun, we really need to ask and establish what good customs do for us. Because thats one thing that nobody really seems to have an answer for, and it sure as hell isnt addressed in the article.

What good do customs do for competitive play? What beneficial changes are brought about by customs that are so different than the real game that it warrants further testing than what we've already seen? I'm interested in having this discussion with the pro-customs community, because its not really something that I've seen a lot of people actually talk about when advocating for customs.

I read through the bit of it that was actually about Smash, and not about competitive TF2, which I already know about. And I just re-read it again while making this post.



Thats... not a good thing. Not for gameplay, not for spectatorship, and not for the meta of customs play.

Metaknight in brawl was straight up broken, there is no arguing that. It was not impossible to defeat a MK with another character, that depended on the skill of the MK and the other player. However, where MK was not banned, people would mostly play MK because why would you give yourself a handicap?

The same thing with Kong Cyclone and the counter tree and extreme balloon trip.
If you arent playing that, then you're fighting an uphill battle. Playing against them requires that you play SUPER LAME. and that is NOT GOOD for ANYONE.

Well, that was actually a pretty argument. But there is one problem with it.

How can you say that something doesn't add anything to a game when you've barely tested with it?

It's like doing a science experiment. You can't just do the dam thing once and say 'We, these are the results and that's that.' No, you need to repeat multiply times to definitively say what the answer is.

It's the same with customs and to an extent, Mii fighters. You can't just have they viable at one major tournament, have them not go well then say "oh look, customs aren't useful. Ban"

No, we need to keep testing them and testing them and then after all that data has been collected, decide whether or not customs are useful and if they are, which ones help certain characters out and which ones make other's too OP (just like with the TF2 comp)

 

Well, that was actually a pretty argument. But there is one problem with it.

How can you say that something doesn't add anything to a game when you've barely tested with it?

It's like doing a science experiment. You can't just do the dam thing once and say 'We, these are the results and that's that.' No, you need to repeat multiply times to definitively say what the answer is.

It's the same with customs and to an extent, Mii fighters. You can't just have they viable at one major tournament, have them not go well then say "oh look, customs aren't useful. Ban"

No, we need to keep testing them and testing them and then after all that data has been collected, decide whether or not customs are useful and if they are, which ones help certain characters out and which ones make other's too OP (just like with the TF2 comp)

The problem isn't that customs aren't useful. Its that they're too useful. They can change the entire viability of a character. DK with customs is way more viable than DK without. Same with Villager. Even Marth becomes better.

I feel like rather than looking at the fact that we don't have a lot of data, we need to assess what customs can potentially bring to the table, and what good it could do for the community and for the competitive side of the game. Because, we didn't just test it at ONE tournament. We tested it for MONTHS prior to EVO. Several tournaments across the country, and some outside of the country where the game was played under these settings. And the general consensus was: we don't like them.

What good do customs bring for Smash 4?

And then, on the bad side, what are the cons?

Im all for running side events and testing things out if there is a reason for it.

Testing stages for viability has a very solid reason behind it: The larger the pool of stages we have to select from, the various counterplays we can make to our opponents choices. Some stages give specific characters advantages/disadvantages not wrought by other stages. Right out the gate, that is a solid argument for why we should examine stages like Umbra when they come out for viability.

However, I've never been given a good reason as to why we should continue testing customs. We already tried it, and generally, we didnt like it. Say we ban Kong Cyclone and Villager's OP kit. Then what? Where do we go from there? and do we make the custom moveset that we determine "good" the ONLY moveset playable? yes or no?

what consequences does that have for the Meta? what good does it bring? why should we do it at all?

just because we havent and we can doesnt mean we should. That is an important distinction that people tend to forget about. There's a certain line of logic you have to follow in making decisions like this, and the very first step in the line is "why should or shouldn't I do this"

 

But what do customs bring to the table? WE gave customs their spot in the sun, as we did with stages like Halberd and Umbra.

We have an understanding that customs can affect how viable a character is. For example, DK and Villager. On that note alone, that should tell you how viable and balanced customs are.

We experimented with it for months, and before we try any further exploration with it, I feel that we should strive towards a much more stable and universal ruleset, and develop the real meta of the game further.

while it's true that some customs are more powerful than others, the problem I've seen about cases like DK and Villager is not so much a jump in viability, but how out of the norm their new tactics are. most custom villagers and DKs use these unfamiliar tactics, and will frustrate or overwhelm an opponent before they can really pick it apart and counter it.

while it's also true that most players experimented with customs for awhile (with the pro-customs group likely doing it even longer), compared to the majority of everybody else just analyzing the bare bones inital movesets of the game, a few months compared to the year defaults have been analyzed would seem a little unfair, maybe even biased to begin with.

Maybe encourage your TOs to host custom side events and talk about it in your communities, but honestly, if we want this game to grow, Im going to be frank with you and tell you that changing the entire way the game is played every half a year and being indecisive ******** about everything isnt going to help it.

okay, yeah, I'll agree with this, although it would certainly do the idea wonders if said TOs were actually willing to make time for such a side event instead of automatically saying "No, we won't have enough time" .

with the fun comment, I dont think you're understanding the issue at hand. No one is stopping you and your friends from playing with customs, or even practicing it. The same is true for, say, playing with items on, or equipment. And the same is true for playing outdated games, like Third Strike.

However, EVO, Apex, [Genesis]-- they [aren't] about fun. They're about competition, and tests of skill, with real money on the line. There are people who play the game full time, and their [livelihood] depends on these events.

****ing with the way the game is played for the sake of "having fun customs on" when the game is fine without them, I feel is not just a risk, but a stupid move.

while the argument regarding casual play interfering with competitive play is justified, the common debate with trying to encourage change is the fact that TOs will use the EVO, Apex, and whatnot rulesets as their absolute foundation. ANY attempts to promote anything that strictly contradicts this foundation will, at best, get frowned upon... and at worst, you'll be outright told off and they'll list every reason the National events gave almost like it was written down on a series of flashcards.

[...]

What good do customs do for competitive play? What beneficial changes are brought about by customs that are so different than the real game that it warrants further testing than what we've already seen? I'm interested in having this discussion with the pro-customs community, because its not really something that I've seen a lot of people actually talk about when advocating for customs.

I can't speak for the pro-customs community because I'm not near one in-person, but for my own opinion, I believe customs will allow players to better distinguish themselves and present more memorable experiences in competition. while some setups promote more power, it's usually traded off at the expense of speed or mobility, and the same is true for the other way around.

some specials will complement a particular playstyle, and they can even be relied on to counter certain others. for instance, Villager's Extreme Balloon Trip does explode if struck, but because planking is more-or-less nonexistent, some projectiles, like Link's Meteor Bombs, can allow you to lay down a strong punish. same can be said for Wario's default Chomp and Greninja's custom Substitute Ambush against DK's Kong Cyclone.

 

while it's true that some customs are more powerful than others, the problem I've seen about cases like DK and Villager is not so much a jump in viability, but how out of the norm their new tactics are. most custom villagers and DKs use these unfamiliar tactics, and will frustrate or overwhelm an opponent before they can really pick it apart and counter it.

while it's also true that most players experimented with customs for awhile (with the pro-customs group likely doing it even longer), compared to the majority of everybody else just analyzing the bare bones inital movesets of the game, a few months compared to the year defaults have been analyzed would seem a little unfair, maybe even biased to begin with.



okay, yeah, I'll agree with this, although it would certainly do the idea wonders if said TOs were actually willing to make time for such a side event instead of automatically saying "No, we won't have enough time" .



while the argument regarding casual play interfering with competitive play is justified, the common debate with trying to encourage change is the fact that TOs will use the EVO, Apex, and whatnot rulesets as their absolute foundation. ANY attempts to promote anything that strictly contradicts this foundation will, at best, get frowned upon... and at worst, you'll be outright told off and they'll list every reason the National events gave almost like it was written down on a series of flashcards.



I can't speak for the pro-customs community because I'm not near one in-person, but for my own opinion, I believe customs will allow players to better distinguish themselves and present more memorable experiences in competition. while some setups promote more power, it's usually traded off at the expense of speed or mobility, and the same is true for the other way around.

some specials will complement a particular playstyle, and they can even be relied on to counter certain others. for instance, Villager's Extreme Balloon Trip does explode if struck, but because planking is more-or-less nonexistent, some projectiles, like Link's Meteor Bombs, can allow you to lay down a strong punish. same can be said for Wario's default Chomp and Greninja's custom Substitute Ambush against DK's Kong Cyclone.

Well, there's good reason that they'll tell you no or even tell you off. Thousands of dollars are on the line at nationals, as well as the reputation of their event and its ability to continue happening annually. Hundreds of dollars are on the line at smaller events. A bi-monthly I went to just a few weeks ago had a pot with over a thousand dollars.

Smaller events can't take as many risks either, because if they take a risk that doesnt pay off, it could ruin them.


Anyway, players have the ability to distinguish themselves and create memorable experiences WITHOUT customs, through something called skill. Ken created something FAMOUS in the Smash community, one that we get excited for every time we see it happen! And the Ken combo needed no customs to do.

Thats the problem I'm having with customs. They don't provide anything, that I can distinguish anyway, that isn't already accomplished. However, they do encourage total changes of gameplay and super lame play, which ISN'T good.

 

The problem isn't that customs aren't useful. Its that they're too useful. They can change the entire viability of a character. DK with customs is way more viable than DK without. Same with Villager. Even Marth becomes better.

I feel like rather than looking at the fact that we don't have a lot of data, we need to assess what customs can potentially bring to the table, and what good it could do for the community and for the competitive side of the game. Because, we didn't just test it at ONE tournament. We tested it for MONTHS prior to EVO. Several tournaments across the country, and some outside of the country where the game was played under these settings. And the general consensus was: we don't like them.

What good do customs bring for Smash 4?

And then, on the bad side, what are the cons?

Im all for running side events and testing things out if there is a reason for it.

Testing stages for viability has a very solid reason behind it: The larger the pool of stages we have to select from, the various counterplays we can make to our opponents choices. Some stages give specific characters advantages/disadvantages not wrought by other stages. Right out the gate, that is a solid argument for why we should examine stages like Umbra when they come out for viability.

However, I've never been given a good reason as to why we should continue testing customs. We already tried it, and generally, we didnt like it. Say we ban Kong Cyclone and Villager's OP kit. Then what? Where do we go from there? and do we make the custom moveset that we determine "good" the ONLY moveset playable? yes or no?

what consequences does that have for the Meta? what good does it bring? why should we do it at all?

just because we havent and we can doesnt mean we should. That is an important distinction that people tend to forget about. There's a certain line of logic you have to follow in making decisions like this, and the very first step in the line is "why should or shouldn't I do this"

Well, we certainly can't find these things out if we don't continue trying.

Also, in your statement, you've answered the point I try to make. Customs do make a difference and can help characters. Particularly, and what I am focusing on, is lower tier characters who just need that little bit of help to be that bit better. Yes, there will be some custom that will effect Sm4sh in a bad way (Villager like you said) but there is also another side to this that others seem to not have thought of. What if we could use custom moves to nerf top tier characters? Think about if, what if some of the Top Tiers have Customs that are actually worse than there originals? Why not use them as a why to nerf the character?

I know that kind of takes power out of the players hands and makes the argument for customs being 'customisations for players to change the play style' a little mute, but it's just another angle to this argument to think about

 

I actually was hoping back then that we could do this with customs. Try to keep them in the meta, then just start flushing out the individual customs that harm the meta for being broken or cheese or whatever. Though perhaps, that was a bit too optimistic. That would require having to stir a ton of discussion for every individual character's custom moves, and we'd have to draw an arbitrary line that many wouldn't even agree with, since obviously not all characters are created equal, nor are all custom moves. It also creates the inconsistency with the DLC characters that are unfortunate enough to not even have custom moves. And logistics would once again become an issue. And I'm sure there's more problems I'm not even thinking of right now.

I still really wish we could make customs work and turn them into a meaningful part of the metagame, and I'd love it if the community could really manage that, but I'm honestly not convinced at this point that it's realistically possible right now.

 

The problem isn't that customs aren't useful. Its that they're too useful. They can change the entire viability of a character. DK with customs is way more viable than DK without. Same with Villager. Even Marth becomes better.

I feel like rather than looking at the fact that we don't have a lot of data, we need to assess what customs can potentially bring to the table, and what good it could do for the community and for the competitive side of the game. Because, we didn't just test it at ONE tournament. We tested it for MONTHS prior to EVO. Several tournaments across the country, and some outside of the country where the game was played under these settings. And the general consensus was: we don't like them.

What good do customs bring for Smash 4?

And then, on the bad side, what are the cons?

Im all for running side events and testing things out if there is a reason for it.

However, I've never been given a good reason as to why we should continue testing customs. We already tried it, and generally, we didnt like it. Say we ban Kong Cyclone and Villager's OP kit. Then what? Where do we go from there? and do we make the custom moveset that we determine "good" the ONLY moveset playable? yes or no?

what consequences does that have for the Meta? what good does it bring? why should we do it at all?

Kong nor Villager moves need to be banned. They both trade very fair tools for what is gained. (Kong losing little vertical recovery he has; villager losing wind box on water, growth tree kill, falling tree kill, and axe kill. Villager is vulnerable with his bomballoons and can be punished hard for misusing them.) They are just new matchups that demand we forsake our conventional ways of playing. Once we figure it out like we will for the DLC we'll be fine.

As far as why we should continue testing:
Expanding the meta 100 fold (combos, tech, etc.), adding thousands of matchups and play styles, and bringing rarely used characters out of the woodwork is a good start, IMO. Variety spices things up. I can't see that as a bad thing. All of these things in the long run are beneficial to spectatorship and competition.

The cons are logistics, which we have a project for (that works). There's also the lab hours and knowledge needed to get around a list of these moves. (I don't personally see it as a bad thing. Although, a scrub can take out a notable player if he [notable player] isn't on top of his mu knowledge. A lot of people seemed to hate that, understandably, I suppose. Lol)

I feel we should do it to ensure we aren't dismissing one of the most promising parts of the game. Especially after only a few months of testing. No, we don't decide what's good for each character. That would defeat the purpose of customs, which is to allow you to play how you prefer. Id say we redo the Customs Moves project once a year (or more of deemed necessary) to keep the character specialists up to date with their most preferred sets.

 

The nerfing characters with what we see as worse moves doesn't sit right with me. For one ppl would eventually optimize it and it might not be as bad as we thought. Lol - aside from that though u have a group of players basically taking strong tools from other players to bring them down a notch. I would assume that wouldn't be healthy for spectatorship. It would also piss off a fairly large portion of the community. (I'll go on a whim and say we're referring to sheik.) lol

 

Also about villager/DK/Sonic(?)/etc. viability with customs on, they never won any regional nor national tournaments in the few months we tested customs. We know they pose annoying moves/play styles, but they are by no means unbalanced or broken. We have no results to prove otherwise. If we banned moves based on thebeing annoying there's a long list of moves that should follow imho. Looking at you, sheik. Lol

 

I'm just sitting here waiting for the Smashboards blog

'TO's across North America stop being spineless, clueless idiots and allow full custom Miis, ending all debates and the smash community rejoices."

I'll concede something though. In all other competitive games I've played (FPS, RTS, TBS) players and the rulemakers are scared of anything that introduces any sort of dynamic into the game outside of what was purely vanilla. They would ban unlockable weapons a shooting game, yet the same people would allow DLC characters in fighting games, its completely stupid.

 

You can't decide whether to ban or allow custom moves only by analyzing one noticeable tournament and decide the outcome by just that. Customs need more time and should be allowed on more tournaments. We can't judge customs based on only ONE tournament! I am all for allowing customs, since they balance the game more and offer personalized strategy (which is good) and are not broken by any means. Give them more time and explore them more before you judge them.

No custom move or even set are better than Sheik.

 

Honestly i have already accepted mii movesets (only movesets, not sizes). But i think we should just leave the customs button off. People say it's already broken because they haven't adapted, but the thing is. There's so much left to learn without customs. Adding more customs into the game would just add more to learn making the growth of this game slower. We have what.. 1? consistent player being ZeRo. This game still has a long way to go.

Ofcourse the DLC characters don't have customs either (Kinda personal bias for being a Roy main )

But yeah, the whole problem with this debate is: There's 2 sides. I was looking at customs when they were thought to be legal. i was okay with it, whatever, go with the meta. NOW we're at no customs. Which has created a more positive environment for most people i have met, most people are used to it by now, Can't we just stick with it?

Banning certain customs will just create more arguments about people disagreeing, so i don't think that's a good option. Disagreement is the whole reason this customs debate exists anyways.
Alot of people including me are just sick of the endless arguments and non defined rules. 2 to 3 stocks is and argument that has less impact IMO, i've played both. being an EU player i'm used to 3 stocks but didn't have too much trouble adapting to 2 stocks. (3 stocks still being my favorite).

Oh yeah keep in mind, for smaller tournaments, Unlocking customs would still be a problem. We take our own wii u's with us and we don't have the customs there.

Anyways, these are my thoughts.

 

Well, there's good reason that they'll tell you no or even tell you off. Thousands of dollars are on the line at nationals, as well as the reputation of their event and its ability to continue happening annually. Hundreds of dollars are on the line at smaller events. A bi-monthly I went to just a few weeks ago had a pot with over a thousand dollars.

Smaller events can't take as many risks either, because if they take a risk that doesnt pay off, it could ruin them.


Anyway, players have the ability to distinguish themselves and create memorable experiences WITHOUT customs, through something called skill. Ken created something FAMOUS in the Smash community, one that we get excited for every time we see it happen! And the Ken combo needed no customs to do.

Thats the problem I'm having with customs. They don't provide anything, that I can distinguish anyway, that isn't already accomplished. However, they do encourage total changes of gameplay and super lame play, which ISN'T good.

Customs further enhance the amount of options that a player could have. That's enough of a pro for me; ain't no set unbeatable or OP or w/e. It just takes patience to beat villager and you can hit DK put of Kong cyclone.

Honestly, if Sakurai were to allow us to buy customs for $2 or something, I guarantee that we would be playing customs.

easily.

 

EVO became the largest Smasn 4 tournament because well, it is EVO! Not because the ruleset was "good" in fact most top players complained about the ruleset and after EVO customs died. Are custom moves in 2016 EVO rulseset? Of course not and they will never be because of last year's EVO. Customs had a horrible showcase on it and that's pretty much a fact.


If you've some common sense, you would realize that TOs base their rulesets on what players and viewers want and what TOs can do. The funny part is that I didn't even attacked the 3 stock format and you come raging at me about a topic that's poorly adressed in the community. Seriously, I knew I was posting an unpopular opinion, but at least I was expecting more well-thought-out counter-arguments like the one notsuchabadguy gave.

Yeah sorry my common sense comes in the form of actually going to these tourneys. None of your arguments are well thought out. Many people want to play with customs still but are afraid because people like you who make statements like it was a failure......for customs to have failed in their design or gameplay means some seriously harmful technique was found and never had any counterplay. That's not what happened. You did also attack 3 stock by saying it wasn't norm so it could cleave the community.,.,.yah no buddy. Also, most TOs act independently if you haven't noticed. Having actually been a TO, talking to others, we make our own decisions. At some point we do try to standardize based on how large regions run while making our own tweaks, but listening to viewers or players usually does nothing. Way to prove that you know little about either topics.

 

I don't particularly care for customs as a whole. I just think it's unfortunate how banning them negatively affected characters like Palutena and the Miis, who needed their specials more than anyone else. Alas...

 

The "sm4sh dictators" should go through all the customs for all characters banning the dumb/broken ones and then we can make it interesting again

 

I just hope this project they're working on brings good news.

 

I feel full customs is going to turn into a logistical nightmare/ barrier to entry. The custom moveset project does some things to alleviate these worries but still runs on a few assumptions:

1. There is a/ multiple Wii U(s) with all customs available.
2. There is a 3DS with all customs available
3. There is a 3DS + cheat device to make all customs available

One difference between majors and locals is that the consoles in locals are basically all supplied by members of the community. Now imagine nobody has a 3DS with all customs/ a cheat device to make the customs available at your local tournament. What then? How can the tournament continue when no setups have all the required custom moves? Usually a setup is turned off if it doesn't have all the correct components to be tournament legal, so following the same principal the all the setups would be unfit for play and the tournament would basically be cancelled. Or just as bad, you only have 1 or 2 consoles arrive with all the customs unlocked, leaving you with a bunch of disgruntled tournament participants standing around waiting to have their matches.

Also, what about practicing? You can't practice effectively without all the custom moves. You can't come up with your optimum sets without all the custom moves. In contrast, someone else with the correct set of circumstances is able to have all the custom moves, come up with their optimum sets and practice heavily with them. Then you go to tournaments and get absolutely destroyed by this person because they've been able to practice with all the options available and you haven't.

That hardly seems fair to me. Not everyone is lucky enough to unlock all the customs, or has/ can afford to get a 3DS + copy of 3DS Smash + Cheat device to unlock them all straight away. They may (at a stretch) be able to find someone with a a 3DS + cheat device to load them all on, but that's a lot of unnecessary effort to go to just to be able to play in tournaments. Nobody should be expected to go to this level of expense and effort just to be part of a community.

By that point, I would be taking Smash 4 out of the Wii U, and i'd be going out to find something else to play where the only barrier to entry is the cost of purchasing the game (and maybe a few bits of DLC)

 

This would be terrible. I've been against customs from the start, 3 stock matches is insanely bad and Mii Fighters should be completely banned from tournies. EVO 2016's ruleset is the one that everyone should be emulating. It's not perfect as 1-1-1-1 Miis are still allowed, but it's the closest thing that I've seen to the perfect ruleset so hopefully more tournies will keep on copying them. I do with we had more legal stages like Castle Siege and Umbra Clock Tower though.

 

Customs honestly have too many logistical issues for me to support them anyway, but they do also affect gameplay in a negative way (IMO).

Yes, they add options for players, but they also add complication to the metagame. Like, a lot of complication. Too much, at least in my opinion. There's so much to memorize, so much to study, so much to unlock... It's a high barrier to entry, to say the least. And no, this isn't a good thing – by itself anyway. While there is a decent amount of depth added by customs, there's also loads and loads of complexity. (Depth and complexity)

In game design (disclaimer: I'm in no way an expert in this field), it's often said that complexity is like currency you use to buy depth. So if you add, say, a mana mechanic to your strategy game, then yeah, the player has to become familiar with that added complexity, but it also adds depth in that you have to make strategic choices about how you use your limited supply.

To me, custom moves are like an extravagant million-dollar mansion. Sure, it's a really nice mansion and it's really big too, but it costs a million dollars, and (assuming you're not incredibly wealthy) you can't really afford that. Sure, customs add a lot of depth, but I don't think that we can afford all of that complexity.

Another issue is how customs remove a lot of the game's consistency. A Mario, currently, is a Mario; you know what to expect. But with customs, that sense of consistency in the game is lost, and some consistency (quite a bit of it) is vital for a competitive game like this. Otherwise you don't have any one thing to practice against / study, spectators may be lost as to what's going on, etc.

Plus there are the occasional custom moves that seem to disrupt the flow of gameplay at a quite fundamental level (e.g. bomballoons and planking, HSB, etc), but I don't have much competitive experience beyond online play, let alone experience with customs, so I'll let those who are more qualified discuss this facet of custom moves.