Edgeguarding with Zelda

[Downshift]

Been trying to get creative with my edgeguarding with Zelda as of late.

Normally I focus on ledge traps, using Din's to force air dodges or time Phantom to cover ledge jumps and get ups. Setting up Phantom to cover mid and then using Din's during the delay to cover high or low is pretty effective on most people, and Zelda can cover recovery to the stage pretty well.

If I ever go off-stage, it's usually just run-off Nayru since it's simple and pretty safe. What I'm seeing in some higher level play though are people just going offstage with Zelda and going HAM with multiple moves, often risking going too deep even for Farore to recover. I've seen people spike Lucas's PK Thunder even though I thought you couldn't contest that. Seen people jump off charging Phantom, force an airdodge, and then hit with Nayru. RAR jump off from the edge, double jump, go deep waiting out the air dodge, BAIR them, and barely make it back with Farore.

A lot of it just looks like hype Twitter clips and compilation vids and nothing practical or consistent. Anyone here use any good off-stage approaches that are as good as Zelda's edge guarding while still onstage?
Any techniques that work well against really good recoveries like Joker, Marcina, Inkling or Pikas?

 

[StoicPhantom]

A lot of it just looks like hype Twitter clips and compilation vids and nothing practical or consistent.

That's probably the correct observation. It's rare to pull off anything fancy against a skilled opponent, which is why you only see BnBs and simple stuff in top level play the most. Occasionally your opponent makes a mistake and things line up just right, so that you get something ridiculous. That's why you should only take those as an entertainment thing, not something you should be doing often. You have to be careful going off stage as Zelda, because if you happened to get reversed on, your put into her worst state.

That being said, if you want to do cool stuff, you can. You just need to consider every option your opponent has, where you knocked them off, how close you are to the ledge when you did, and their Up-B. I'd say as a general rule of thumb, don't go off until they are going to be forced to use their Up-B. Either through forcing them to burn jumps or knocking them at such a distance and/or angle that they'll need to use all their resources to make it back. Anything else is putting yourself at risk, most of the time.

Once you've established they are going to have a risky recovery(distance), that's when you need to evaluate where you sent them. If you sent them high, forcing an airdodge and then punishing from the stage might be the most optimal. It's easy for them to simply go over you and then gain center stage, if you try to chase off stage. If they are around ledge height, Phantom will kill or force them low. If you knocked them low and diagonal(and far of course), that's the sweet-spot for those cool things.

You then need to understand the nature of their recovery. Do they rely mostly on their jumps? Is their Up-B a teleport or otherwise very difficult or impossible recovery to spike/contest? Are they able to mix things up or are they relegated to a straight shot? Can they safely aerial without killing themselves? Do they have a counter or special option, such as Shadow Sneak or (B-reversed) projectiles?

Once you understand those things, it's a matter of placing yourself in the right position. For example, Falcon's Up-B is fast, travels far, can be DI'd quite heavily, and is a grab that can kill or give him an extra use. It's not a good idea to try to stage spike with Nayru, because if he techs it, he can Up-B into you and possibly kill. Or quickly B-reverse and preempt you. But if he is far below the ledge, you have time to spike his linear recovery. Similar case if he has to recover from a deep horizontal position. He's going to have to rely on DI to make it back, which makes for easy Nayru that will push him back enough that he can't recover on Up-B alone.

All of those examples you mentioned are just variations of what I said above. They are superfluous in that you can achieve the same thing with simpler and safer options, most of the time. But they look cool and the opponent is on very thin ice, so people go for them. As long as you follow the principles I laid out above and have a good understanding of Farore's Wind and Zelda's moves in general, you can mix and match as you please. All recoveries must head to the ledge eventually, so you can draw a line from where they are at to the ledge and as long as you are somewhere on that line, you can intercept them. And the more diagonal the line, the less options they have.

Any techniques that work well against really good recoveries like Joker, Marcina, Inkling or Pikas?

Again, following the principles I laid out above, you need to put yourself on their path. Joker's normal Up-B is always going to move straight up. Simply dropping from the ledge and slowly falling towards him until he Up-Bs, then doing Nayru on reaction will suffice. Arsene Up-B is a little harder, but again, he as to go to the ledge eventually. Knock far enough away to make use his full recovery distance, and thus lose his initial invincibility, then hang around the ledge and then spike.

Inkling works the same way. Inkling Up-B is linear in it's trajectory, so learn how far Inkling can recover from and time Dair near the ledge. Pichu and Marcina can be intercepted by well timed Nayrus, but is pretty risky to do so. Pikachu is probably not happening, unless you can time Nayru's invincibility exactly as his Up-B hitbox connects. All recoveries can be 2-framed.

 

[daddypeach]

I really like edge-guarding with double jump + nair. It will catch people by surprise when they are trying to hide in the blast zone. It will probably be in some moment when you decided not to chase with din's. If you hit them back to the stage accidentally, you might be able to chase with up-b (I wonder if you can ever truly combo into up-b...)

I have actually had some luck with up-b (straight up) off the ledge against characters who have a high double jump or like to recover high (like upper blast-zone high). It's a little risky to whiff, but Zelda's drift is good and she's high enough that you can fall on-stage or catch the ledge. Usually it's effective against people with really good DI who end up in the corner of the blast zone. I used to think it would be a good idea to catch them with diagonal up-b, but actually Farore directed straight up is easier and safer. You actually have a fair amount of play with your (vertically) if you fast-fall. It's probably only good online. Definitely high risk.

You can fast-fall all the way down to where a desperate Hero wants to up-b and Naryu his tornado. I get good mileage out of this one. It usually ends up with him getting stage-spiked, so it's survivable but so satisfying when they don't tech.

I haven't been spiking anyone lately. =( But I think it's really good to float in your full-hop off the ledge and fast-fall dair spike against low-recoverers. It's basic though and puts you in a really bad position on whiff. I think that's why I've been favoring nair more.

Dair agains the Earthbound kids are scary. I have gotten a few Lucases by falling on top of them off stage and using Naryu's when I think they will up-b. It will reflect their up-b and I think they will get hit, but they will end up too low to make it back. So it's a decent gimp and less scary than trying to dair... I guess. Though I'm pretty sure dair clanks their pk thunder. Just seems more dangerous and not better than neutral b. I dunno, you can easily die both ways. Haha

I really like to put a lingering hit-box out for Arsene's recovery. I will usually just slow-fall near Arsene and wait until he is forced to double jump, then double jump and nair to catch his up-b. I think it's a pretty strong position against Arsene, so you can play around a lot down there.

With Joker, I just try and predict where he will tether and follow that line with nair. I am not usually very lucky, though. Same with Ivysaur. It's hard to force a lot of characters into a position where they will die by edge-guarding since there are so many options to cover. A lot of times you want to soften them up by making them frustrated by your ledge traps first, then you are unexpected when you strike.

I've been experimenting with dropping a full phantom along with me when I decide to go under, but in play I usually don't do it in favor of setting up a nice juicy ledge-trap.

I have the hardest time edge-guarding Villager & Rachel. I want to pop their balloons so bad. Using phantom is risky against them since they can use pocket. Any ideas?

 

[Downshift]

Hmmm, yeah I never even considered using Nair over Nayru to catch recoveries off-stage.
The hitbox is similar in size and placement, and might even be bigger. According to ultimateframedata.com, Nair's hitboxes are active from frames 6-23, while Nayru's are active from 11-26. So the actual hitboxes themselves are out longer with Nair, while Nayru still has the added properties of frame 4 intangibility and of course the reflector. So I guess it depends on what type of recovery you're trying to gimp that will determine the best one to use, like Nair against a Inkling or Rosa that's linear with no hitbox, but Nayru against anything with hitboxes you need to contest or trade with, like Ness or Shulk.
Then of course it matters that Nair has less end lag so you don't SD if you go too low.

I've actually tried Farore straight up to catch high recoveries, but that's almost exclusively against Snakes that try to go above the top blast line to fast fall with C4 and an airdodge. I'm not sure how the mechanics work but usually if I line up my attack horizontally to hit them, it doesn't seem to matter how high they actually are it will still connect and KO. I'm not sure if there's an invisible wall up there that they can't go above, even though they can't KO themselves.

Yeah and I also agree that the command grab recoveries like Falcon or Ganon's UpB are risky unless they're forced to recover far from the ledge and drift in. That's where I was wanting to drop down with enough of a Phantom charged to hit them with the overhead sword swing, but it's really hard to time that.

Villager is also frustrating because he has a ton of air speed while using those balloons, and they're far enough apart that not many single hitboxes can take out both at once. Din's is safe to use Most Villagers fall down with Pocket as they fall below the ledge to try and catch any projectiles shot directly at them, then use balloons to recover back up. Really hard to get Phantom to cover low recovery approaches. Only thing that seems to threaten that is angling a Din's low below the ledge since they can't pocket that afaik. Even if they can, they can't shoot it back at you at least.

One of the problems with Zelda going off-stage is that it's harder to cover with multiple attacks at once; which is where her ledge trapping shines. I can charge Phantom to cover the middle, throw a Din's low and then jump up and have Zelda herself intercept high with multiple moves.
What I've been trying to get down is jumping off charging Phantom to get that to cover low, then double jumping up with Uair to catch them trying to go high and recover over it. This is harder since without platforms, Zelda can't get a full Phantom charge out of a single jump, and double jumping means I can't attack high with Uair. However, a DJ into a full Phantom charge to cover low and then using Farore straight up to catch the high recovery might actually work...

 

[Lacrimosa]

It's actually pretty simple against certain opponents. The easiest to edgeguard are characters like and maybe even some more. These characters can be intercepted easily with a dAir when you don't mess up your movement when going off-stage. There recovery either has no hitbox and if they do they are moving pretty slowly.
There are still characters that are pretty fast when recovering, such characters include . They are still beaten when you hit a dAir but because they move faster than the chars mentioned above, I wouldn't recommend it and instead use either Nayru or nAir. They will probably make it back, though.


Then you have characters where a simple phantom hit should suffice. Characters who are vulnerable to this are characters whose recovery doesn't snap ledge, so and (when he can't recover with sideB) are super easy to edgeguard for her. I don't know what other characters also don't snap ledge, but and (?)should also fall into this category of characters that are weak against Phantom. Not sure about Cloud, though. His recovery doesn't snap ledge, I think, but I can't hit him with it, either. Maybe I'm just way too awful against Cloud.

is actually weak to both of these.

Tethers like were already mentioned. Dropping with a well-timed Nayru should suffice here and maybe even a more aggressive nAir will do it.

There are some characters that are rather unique. is very, very weak against fAir/bAir and at higher percents it is untechable for him.

can be dTilted very easy but you want to challenge them off-stage pretty hard. Ven's been approving against Fow in that regard where he follows his Ness pretty deep.

I think there are some strategies for her to edgeguard, but I think her edgeguarding is highly dependant on the MU but she's definitely one of the better edguarders in the gamer.
She can do a Phantom ledgetrap fairly easy which leaves the opponent only two options which is jumping away or roll-in. Of course one can use the iFrames on normal get-up and get-up attack but when you focus while playing you should still get the opponent with a grab or maybe dash attack when fast enough.

 

[daddypeach]

This thread inspired me to play off the edge more. And I want to reiterate my earlier comment about how suicidal and satisfying it is to edge guard Ness. You can definitely reflect ness' pkt without hitting him. Also, I think if you want to dair him, it's probably safest to aim slightly behind him because if he spaces you between him and the ledge, you're gonna have a bad time.

Theory-craft time, but if cloud doesn't snap the ledge why doesn't he get spiked more often at the 2-frame spot? Seems like Zelda can do it easily in theory, but of course that situation is hard to come by against cloud. Haha.

Is it really that easy to hit k rool with fair/bair off ledge? Sheik players say the same thing but he usually recovers very low in my experience which makes him hard to intercept unless you can come from above and outprioritize his propellers.

 

[Downshift]

In my experience, Krool is easier to hit off stage when recovering low than Cloud since his recovery has a MUCH slower rate of ascension than Climhazazrd, meaning it's easier to time a Dair or even land a Bair on him. Plus he can't suicide you with his UpB either.

 

[stixie]

5.6M GSP with Zelda and honestly I rarely EVER go offstage. Normally just against certain really obvious recoveries. Zelda just doesn't have to. I know it may look super flashy to dair someone into the shadowrealm or bair someone off stage it just isn't necessary with this character.

People don't realize how utterly absurd Din's Fire is at killing people. I take average 2 stocks a game hitting someone with Din's off level. If you sweet spot Din's off stage it kills almost any character if they're above 30%... it really is crazy. And for those obnoxious characters with horizontal recoveries (like Ike) or people who like to camp at the ledge... Phantom will take their lunch money.

Zelda is actually really good (one of the best I'd wager) at edge guarding and she never has to even leave the stage.

 

[daddypeach]

Hmm... I think you have a fair point that ledge traps and safe Dins are a good option for Zelda. It is especially smart to notice if someone used a directional air Dodge to survive because they are laggy as get-out and are easily punished with sweet spot dins.

I do have to admit I don't think Zelda is as great off-stage as I did before but I don't think she's bad at all. I just rescued my sheik out of 100k GSP and got her into elite and probably 30+% of my kills came from gimps. I've noticed that moves like Zelda's neutral air end up saving people more often than I like, but I still think it has potential that's untapped.

Sometimes when you have momentum as Zelda, you are in obvious advantage, but your actual frame advantage is kind of tight so you don't have time to set up ledge traps. So if you push someone off the ledge, then edge guarding is sometimes the most rewarding decision that you can make. Neutral b is so strong off ledge because of iframes and can intercept many up bs or double jumps causing stage spikes. It's very gratifying to graze someone out of their double jump with a weak hit of neutral b and teleport away.

Zelda can survive very far below stage using neutral b, nair, and dair and they all have their own niche lingering hitboxes. It's a shame to let them go to waste when they are actually good tools for the purpose of ledge guarding.

There are a lot of really strong plays that Zelda can make off-ledge. Zelda has a really similar floatiness to Lucina who is a monster off ledge. A lot of times it's possible to use Zelda's Nair like lucina's fair/nair off stage (copy the angle) or use her Nair as a drop down attack to gimp like with sheik.

One fun new trick is to place the first hit of your up b right at the ledge and teleport onto center stage. Pretty safe for Zelda and the up-b will stage spike if it 2frames them. It's not a tough situation to find yourself in if you are applying safe pressure off-ledge.

Anyway there's lots of good reasons to edge guard. I think if you get stuck in a rigamarole of the same setups you will just get predictable and run out of options.

 

[Oz o:]

I feel Nayru's 2 Frame > Phantom is pretty much uncontested, and you shouldn't need anything else. I go off stage for Dair half the time, maybe more. Likely unnecesssary, and you're better off focusing on your Phantom traps. Nayru's is likely our best edgeguard tool. Nayru's > Phantom should probably always hit, but I feel a lot of people (including myself) charge Phantom way too early.

I have my doubts about these "high level" players regarding Zelda. There's barely any, and the best are likely mid-level players at best (sadly and no offense). I'm also curious about these kind of ridiculous edgeguards you mention to have seen.

 

[daddypeach]

They're not ridiculous, they're just reads o.O

I mean, there are certain angles where people feel safe to recover like directly below the ledge since you can get a chance to catch your breath and just recover straight up. But obviously if it's predictable you can place a neutral b to stage spike them out of their double jump. Luigi likes to recover like this and so does Hero. Obviously a good player mixes up their recoveries, but if you wear anyone down they will start to recover low.

Another good trick is to jump off stage, avoid grabbing the ledge, and sort of go underneath the stage. From there you can double jump and nair and gimp a double jump. Definitely something that Lucinas other than mine do. You just have to be quick enough to intercept them. It works against people who want to recover at that 45* angle from the ledge from a low spot. It is just a little bit of a mixup from trying to dair them and also gives you more wiggle room for tracking their adjustments.

When Joker tether recovers, it is sometimes difficult to immediately snap the ledge. Some Jokers probably do it intentionally, but the ledge snap can be inconsistent and they will end up hanging whether they like it or not. You can try drop down and dair them if you see it coming.

I like chasing people of the ledge, especially if I'm in the lead and can afford the risk while they want to play more safely. *shrug* Obviously everyone and their mom ledge-traps with phantom because its a great option, but it's not necessarily Zelda's most optimal choice every time.

 

[stixie]

Well in the instance of Joker Phantom really sucks because of their low tether. In fact Joker is one of the few characters I WILL go off level against. I like bairing them into the side of the stage. Teching (even in elite smash) is rather rare (and of course you have online lag that makes teching even harder).

Phantom IS a great option for edge guarding but I'm telling you do NOT sleep on Din's. That move is insane killing recoveries. As I said, I probably get 2 kills a game from sweet spot Din's.

 

[Oz o:]

They're not ridiculous, they're just reads o.O

jajajjajaa you don't get it

 

[daddypeach]

I honestly do have a hard time understanding hype sometimes lol

 

[stixie]

So can Nayru 2 frame actually standing on the ledge?? That'd be news to me.

I always just dtilt for 2 frame and Zelda's dtilt is REALLY good at 2 framing (for some weird reason).

 

[Oz o:]

I honestly do have a hard time understanding hype sometimes lol

And you're a funny little guy that has a username that implies Peach, but then you're a suspiciously aware Zelda main with an image of a boat.

I was asking him what are these supposed "ridiculous twitter combo edgeguards" he's talking about, and that I'm curious to see if he'd post them.

So can Nayru 2 frame actually standing on the ledge?? That'd be news to me.

I always just dtilt for 2 frame and Zelda's dtilt is REALLY good at 2 framing (for some weird reason).

I don't know where you got that from, Nayru's lasts almost three times as much as Dtilt (active frames). Dtilt lasts 6 frames, which isn't bad, but Nayru's does a better job at it (and has invincibility). Yes, it can also hit if you're just standing on the ledge, without having to drop down. One of the Zeldas say dropping down and B-Reversing it is our best edgeguard, though.

 

[daddypeach]

And you're a funny little guy that has a username that implies Peach, but then you're a suspiciously aware Zelda main with an image of a boat.

I was asking him what are these supposed "ridiculous twitter combo edgeguards" he's talking about, and that I'm curious to see if he'd post them.

ah, I actually kept you guys in mind and clipped a bunch of matches trying out everything we talked about hoping for some feedback. XD I just need to upload.

 

[Oz o:]

ah, I actually kept you guys in mind and clipped a bunch of matches trying out everything we talked about hoping for some feedback. XD I just need to upload.

Wait, what are you talking about? :D

 

[StoicPhantom]

I've noticed that moves like Zelda's neutral air end up saving people more often than I like, but I still think it has potential that's untapped.

Try doing at around 100%. It scales in knockback better than Nayru and can often be a kill offstage. Haven't tested it (or rather can't easily) but if you can get used to the new autolinking, you might be able to play with your DI in a way that lets you hit them behind you as well and stage spike when they don't expect it. You can theoretically then mix-up between normal and behind launches to hopefully make them guess wrong and airdodge or not tech.

Yes, it can also hit if you're just standing on the ledge, without having to drop down. One of the Zeldas say dropping down and B-Reversing it is our best edgeguard, though.

I actually did not know or forgot about either of those two. I guess that's more to experiment with when I can actually start playing again. I wonder if mixing up between normal and reverse Nayru would be better than the potential Nair thing I mentioned above.


As far as when you should edgeguard and when you should ledgetrap, it depends on the situation as usual. Things rarely ever work consistently in practice, so you're going to have to make judgement calls. Yes Phantom is good for ledgetrapping, Din's is good for sniping, and Nayru is good for edgeguarding, but you, the player, are not good at not making mistakes or being quick on the uptake at all times. You'll have to decide based on position and whether you feel like you can pull off an option at any given time. Otherwise, you are going to squander a good opportunity.

I tend to base my judgement off of where I'm at currently and if my opponent has good disjoints or not. You really need to be at a specific position, at a specific timing to reliably pull off a Phantom ledgetrap. If your opponent is at lower percents, he often can snap quickly back to the ledge and that's when it will be better to ledgetrap. If you knock him far away, it depends on the angle, but I would say if it's up, Din's Fire, if it's down, go out and edgeguard.

The problem with either Din's Fire or Phantom, is they're a bit cumbersome and not built well for quick adjustments. Even just something as simple as fall speed, character size, or DI can really throw you off. Add in how ridiculous some airdodges are and it can be rather difficult to snipe sometimes. I'd say go with how confident you feel in landing them. If you don't feel confident in a given situation, then maybe take the time to setup an edgeguard or ledgetrap instead.

Good opponents (the rare kind) and especially those who really understand the Zelda MU (my friend) will be able to react to those moves based on their inherent timing. It can be the case where instead of doing based off their relative position, you're going to have to mix things up period, as experienced players can be very tricky with their timings and DI, which can make using moves like Phantom and Din's Fire tricky to do consistently, based on how quick you are to understand the situation.

The player is the bottleneck in this case and if you aren't in almost complete control, it can sometimes be necessary to plant a less rewarding, but large hitbox like Nayru's Love in the opponent's path instead.

And as an aside, run off Fair can be really good for those trying to finesse to the ledge. I'm honestly surprised I don't see it more.

 

[BunnyChuChu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLnRtMcWE00

I'm not sure if it's the best way to edge guard but this is definitely my favorite for when I think they will go low
The plus is by using up b you are getting back to stage asap.
I don't have any clips in this video but ledge trumping an opponent who sneaks by you will also pop them up into phantom.