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Edgeguarding in General

AndrewtheAmericanDude

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 7, 2019
Messages
64
So I've been improving my fundamentals to decent levels over the year but my edgeguarding is still inefficient. People have noted that my ability to rack up damage is hindered by my struggle to take stocks and that I have no late game plan. Occassionally I get some cool arrow snipes or an aerial gimp but I dont land the aerial gimp nearly enough. My opponents routinely question the utility of the arrow for edgeguarding which I refute as part 1 of Pit's edgeguard before he hits with the aerial, but its hard to prove that without backing it up.

Everyone always suggests that with Pits multijumps he should just be able to go out there offstage and cut people off entirely. To what extent is this true? Should I be killing like this consistently when I get advantage at later percents? It's been suggested to me that the mindset of tracking their jumps makes it easier and that I shouldn't always edgeguard vs ledgetrap, and I do ledgetrap but it doesnt lead to consistent kills for me.

So all of this is basically me saying, how do u edgeguard? After hitting them with arrows do I just drop down nair once they get close to the stage? That seems very hard to time and they always slide past me by heading a bit under the stage. Not to mention recoveries like Marth. Dissuading high recoveries is also hard and not a science for me yet.

Thank u for any suggestions
 

Phyras

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
24
Location
South of France
Let's talk about Pit arrow properties: Arrows knockback angle is close to 45°, which means that any amount of horizontal knockback is also given in height (Height can even be superior with the best DI). If the character draw more horizontal air speed than falling speed, we basically help him to get back.

Here some tests: 0% Pit fully charged neutral B from training stage ledge, relevant Characters with 50%, 100%, 150% and 200% standing on the 0 Axis. Left joystick pushed full West from impact frame (DI) to landing frame (Air acceleration).


Below the percentages are the horizontal distances from the impact to the landing in training stage medium squares. 1 square is not that much. Positive value means horizontal gain toward the stage. After some percents, Air acceleration kick in and help compensating the knockback until it get cap by the character Air speed. Later, character gravity and weight reduce vertical knockback.
Overhaul, this table show that half of the cast can just hold the stick toward the stage with no need to dodge arrow and still get closer than lower.
So unless you cancel a jump or mess up a buffered upB, your arrow didn't do much so far.

BUT, You are right about it being "part 1":
  • Being hit out of stage is stressful and can push some players to dodge, jump or up B early. That can be part of a conditioning strategy.
  • Arrow can set an opponent in the right place for a deep Fair or a Nair. Basically, you can think of it as a position reset button.
  • Arrow can force an opponent to go for a lower recovery.
  • Arrow hitstun can help you approach at later percent. To get closer of the ledge from the other side of the stage or to get out of stage.
  • Push an opponent into the blastzone.
  • Get some free damages because you are too far anyway to use your advantage state.
Finally, Arrows should be charged (Even not fully). Spamming uncharged arrow won't do much unless on the trashiest recoveries. It's more effective, faster and scarier to charge 1 arrow than 2 uncharged. Delaying the charge or not can mess with the opponent reaction time as the arrow goes faster or slower.
On top of that, charging arrows make full use of the time you got before the opponent get in range of your jump.

But there's a whole space where arrow can't reach and a space where arrow are not worth. Unless you're trying to achieve something in the above list you are probably wasting an aerial opportunity.

Let's talk about Pit multi-jumps: Pit is slow in the air, his air speed is one of the lowest, his air acceleration doesn't shine and those multi-jumps don't give much height. You can't "Track" opponent jumps. You can't follow them in the air. You can barely surprise them.
You can't be a homing missile... But you can be the party bouncer.
His multi-jumps give Pit the ability to be extraordinary stationary. Occupy and threaten a whole space around the ledge.
When Pit is in disadvantage out of stage, he can stale to mix up his recovery after the opponent committed. When Pit is in advantage state, he can freedive and wait for his opponent to be out of breath, standing between them and the fresh air.
The safest recovery against Pit is straight below the ledge and most of the time your opponent will go for it.
  • You can wait for a deep jump or two frame close to the ledge.
  • You can also face the stage and catch an UpB with a weak and multi hit aerial that last an eternity (Let's call it Nair) then pluck your opponent with a stronger one.
  • You can Dair to Dair at low percent because this spike is so weak you can fast fall faster than the hit knockback...
  • You can Back air against the stage and teach them how to tech.
  • Sometimes you can intercept theater recovery with your body.
  • Marth UpB and alikes can be Dair or Bair, it will likely be a trade but you'are going up and they are going down. Hope you know how to tech those.
Once you forced them to go low, force them to go deep. Pit can go deep, Pit can stay deep and still, he'll come back. So what you should tell yourself while edgeguarding low is "If I mess up even a little with his recovery, I might get a stock, worst case scenario, I lose stage control.".
By design, Pit edgeguard is "comfy", the character incite you to go out. You can cut off many characters recovery given the good setup (K.Rool from low can't pass you if you're planning a Bair), but it'll often be up to the opponent to mix-up his recovery and his timing. Forcing them to delay it or rush it and stay around corner. In stage or out of stage, Pit relies on some read to kill.

Ledgetrap is a whole topic but sometimes not edgeguarding for a long period can make your opponent incautious for the time you'll actually go for it. That said, you can also make that kind of conditioning by guarding some air space and when your opponent get used to work around that space, catch him.
Ledgetrap can be a good choice when you're not confident with the type of recovery you are facing (Marth?).

You can picture 6 quadrants during edgeguard based on movement options. You must be ready to jump in before you opponent reach those. Meaning throwing an arrow there enter the "hitstun the opponent/get closer to the ledge".
  1. High/Very high, First & Second Jump height peaks: It's like juggling with Upairs.
  2. High/mid, First & Second jump length peaks: Fair and Nair. The one jump fair is usually what you should go for. The two jump fair can startle the opponent that would dodge. Three jumps is so slow that an arrow would have done the job.
  3. Edge heigt and below, between Short hop radius and full hop radius: Probably there in early percents, Nair can string into other aerials, Fair can be trickier. At later percents it mean you where too late to be there or the opponent just jumped, that's the punishing Dair.
  4. Closer than short hop radius, that's likely a two frame with Dair or Bair or a ledge trump... Or dash attack if you're late on the spot.
  5. Low, falling/First jump from ledge toward the Bastzone, Fair, Nair, Down B Gimp or Dair if you can... But don't waste braincells to Dair when you can Fair. That's the whole area your arrow cant reach. A stationary Fair or Nair can wall out your opponent, but fastfalling those can cover a wide space. If your opponent got a jump left, beware of their spikes, don't neglect Upair to save yourself. Don't hesitate to go really far and deep for a Fair.
  6. Below the stage, Bair if you are facing the blastzone. But you can setup a Fair as well, or a Dair if you are confident in your timing. Remember Pit air speed is low, if you want to catch your opponent, your must be guarding this spot before they get there.
If your opponent sneak past you, don't mess up. Pit Upb is fast yet reactable, you may as well enter in your opponent UpB or be ledge trump by grabing the ledge before they do, but if you can't grab the ledge few frames after they do be carefull of their choice, they can try to Dair/Bair you on your way back.

TLDR;
  • Less arrows but better arrows
  • Less arrows more aerials
  • Arrows into Fair
  • Go early
  • Go deep
  • Tech mastery required
Try to edgeguard without arrows, you'll learn Pit edgeguard. Then use arrows to setup Pit edgeguard.
 

AndrewtheAmericanDude

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 7, 2019
Messages
64
Let's talk about Pit arrow properties: Arrows knockback angle is close to 45°, which means that any amount of horizontal knockback is also given in height (Height can even be superior with the best DI). If the character draw more horizontal air speed than falling speed, we basically help him to get back.

Here some tests: 0% Pit fully charged neutral B from training stage ledge, relevant Characters with 50%, 100%, 150% and 200% standing on the 0 Axis. Left joystick pushed full West from impact frame (DI) to landing frame (Air acceleration).


Below the percentages are the horizontal distances from the impact to the landing in training stage medium squares. 1 square is not that much. Positive value means horizontal gain toward the stage. After some percents, Air acceleration kick in and help compensating the knockback until it get cap by the character Air speed. Later, character gravity and weight reduce vertical knockback.
Overhaul, this table show that half of the cast can just hold the stick toward the stage with no need to dodge arrow and still get closer than lower.
So unless you cancel a jump or mess up a buffered upB, your arrow didn't do much so far.

BUT, You are right about it being "part 1":
  • Being hit out of stage is stressful and can push some players to dodge, jump or up B early. That can be part of a conditioning strategy.
  • Arrow can set an opponent in the right place for a deep Fair or a Nair. Basically, you can think of it as a position reset button.
  • Arrow can force an opponent to go for a lower recovery.
  • Arrow hitstun can help you approach at later percent. To get closer of the ledge from the other side of the stage or to get out of stage.
  • Push an opponent into the blastzone.
  • Get some free damages because you are too far anyway to use your advantage state.
Finally, Arrows should be charged (Even not fully). Spamming uncharged arrow won't do much unless on the trashiest recoveries. It's more effective, faster and scarier to charge 1 arrow than 2 uncharged. Delaying the charge or not can mess with the opponent reaction time as the arrow goes faster or slower.
On top of that, charging arrows make full use of the time you got before the opponent get in range of your jump.

But there's a whole space where arrow can't reach and a space where arrow are not worth. Unless you're trying to achieve something in the above list you are probably wasting an aerial opportunity.

Let's talk about Pit multi-jumps: Pit is slow in the air, his air speed is one of the lowest, his air acceleration doesn't shine and those multi-jumps don't give much height. You can't "Track" opponent jumps. You can't follow them in the air. You can barely surprise them.
You can't be a homing missile... But you can be the party bouncer.
His multi-jumps give Pit the ability to be extraordinary stationary. Occupy and threaten a whole space around the ledge.
When Pit is in disadvantage out of stage, he can stale to mix up his recovery after the opponent committed. When Pit is in advantage state, he can freedive and wait for his opponent to be out of breath, standing between them and the fresh air.
The safest recovery against Pit is straight below the ledge and most of the time your opponent will go for it.
  • You can wait for a deep jump or two frame close to the ledge.
  • You can also face the stage and catch an UpB with a weak and multi hit aerial that last an eternity (Let's call it Nair) then pluck your opponent with a stronger one.
  • You can Dair to Dair at low percent because this spike is so weak you can fast fall faster than the hit knockback...
  • You can Back air against the stage and teach them how to tech.
  • Sometimes you can intercept theater recovery with your body.
  • Marth UpB and alikes can be Dair or Bair, it will likely be a trade but you'are going up and they are going down. Hope you know how to tech those.
Once you forced them to go low, force them to go deep. Pit can go deep, Pit can stay deep and still, he'll come back. So what you should tell yourself while edgeguarding low is "If I mess up even a little with his recovery, I might get a stock, worst case scenario, I lose stage control.".
By design, Pit edgeguard is "comfy", the character incite you to go out. You can cut off many characters recovery given the good setup (K.Rool from low can't pass you if you're planning a Bair), but it'll often be up to the opponent to mix-up his recovery and his timing. Forcing them to delay it or rush it and stay around corner. In stage or out of stage, Pit relies on some read to kill.

Ledgetrap is a whole topic but sometimes not edgeguarding for a long period can make your opponent incautious for the time you'll actually go for it. That said, you can also make that kind of conditioning by guarding some air space and when your opponent get used to work around that space, catch him.
Ledgetrap can be a good choice when you're not confident with the type of recovery you are facing (Marth?).

You can picture 6 quadrants during edgeguard based on movement options. You must be ready to jump in before you opponent reach those. Meaning throwing an arrow there enter the "hitstun the opponent/get closer to the ledge".
  1. High/Very high, First & Second Jump height peaks: It's like juggling with Upairs.
  2. High/mid, First & Second jump length peaks: Fair and Nair. The one jump fair is usually what you should go for. The two jump fair can startle the opponent that would dodge. Three jumps is so slow that an arrow would have done the job.
  3. Edge heigt and below, between Short hop radius and full hop radius: Probably there in early percents, Nair can string into other aerials, Fair can be trickier. At later percents it mean you where too late to be there or the opponent just jumped, that's the punishing Dair.
  4. Closer than short hop radius, that's likely a two frame with Dair or Bair or a ledge trump... Or dash attack if you're late on the spot.
  5. Low, falling/First jump from ledge toward the Bastzone, Fair, Nair, Down B Gimp or Dair if you can... But don't waste braincells to Dair when you can Fair. That's the whole area your arrow cant reach. A stationary Fair or Nair can wall out your opponent, but fastfalling those can cover a wide space. If your opponent got a jump left, beware of their spikes, don't neglect Upair to save yourself. Don't hesitate to go really far and deep for a Fair.
  6. Below the stage, Bair if you are facing the blastzone. But you can setup a Fair as well, or a Dair if you are confident in your timing. Remember Pit air speed is low, if you want to catch your opponent, your must be guarding this spot before they get there.
If your opponent sneak past you, don't mess up. Pit Upb is fast yet reactable, you may as well enter in your opponent UpB or be ledge trump by grabing the ledge before they do, but if you can't grab the ledge few frames after they do be carefull of their choice, they can try to Dair/Bair you on your way back.

TLDR;
  • Less arrows but better arrows
  • Less arrows more aerials
  • Arrows into Fair
  • Go early
  • Go deep
  • Tech mastery required
Try to edgeguard without arrows, you'll learn Pit edgeguard. Then use arrows to setup Pit edgeguard.
I greatly appreciate the in depth response.

I'll try charging arrows, holding air space, and being early.

But I'm starting to think that early and mid percents, stage control is a big priority. One tough guy mentioned I was giving it up way too early at those times and I was losing for it. When i focused more on just holding the stage early on, i was maintaining advantage longer
 

Phyras

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
24
Location
South of France
There's match where you want to win and match where you want to learn.
Edgeguarding is a risk/reward part you must fail a lot before getting the hang of it.
Positioning, timing, reversal and wall tech, matchup. There's a lot. And if you're trying to win, stage control is safer choice.

If you start a match stating learning edgeguard is your priority, there's no shame to lose stage control again and again even loosing the match.
Through trial and error you'll get the experience to understand when you can edgeguard, when you can't and when you should keep stage control.
 

AndrewtheAmericanDude

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 7, 2019
Messages
64
There's match where you want to win and match where you want to learn.
Edgeguarding is a risk/reward part you must fail a lot before getting the hang of it.
Positioning, timing, reversal and wall tech, matchup. There's a lot. And if you're trying to win, stage control is safer choice.

If you start a match stating learning edgeguard is your priority, there's no shame to lose stage control again and again even loosing the match.
Through trial and error you'll get the experience to understand when you can edgeguard, when you can't and when you should keep stage control.
I see, I've been trying to focus on edgeguarding in friendlies lately but I think I need to start just labbing offstage interceptions a bunch to really understand it.

In what ways can Pit gimp early?
 
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