Edgeguarded by Marth

[RAT!]

Hey all,

I play this one Marth main who has seemed to cinched interrupting my Quick Attack with F-smash, D-tilt and D-air. This has proven very problematic for my recovery because I have become accustomed to Marth's missing this window and me being able to sweet spot. This alternative seems grim because I cannot tech at the angle I need to sweet spot, since the Marth is on stage as opposed to on ledge he can punish my QA onto stage, and riding up the stage is harder to get the correct angles for, especially for FD and Pokemon Stadium.

I know part of the reason is at the vertex and the end of Pikachu's recovery, it's hurt box extends vertically and horizontally. This means you have to have the vertex above the hit box when trying to sweet spot, and below if trying to ride up the stage and tech. If you can get high enough and close enough to the stage, you don't have to worry about the vertex and plus you have a plethora of options; otherwise the only solution I can see to getting past the hit box entirely is by having the vertex just above where Marth's sword will be, then hope you snap to the ledge early enough to get past the hit box. This seems to me to be an absurdly precise and difficult spacing to achieve against a strategy that can be easily consistent (standing by the ledge and throwing out hit boxes). Is it worth it? If the Marth can cover the ledge with attack, should the Pikachu recover onto the stage, settling for a sub-par recovery?

Are there any tips on how to avoid getting tippered when recovering? I would appreciate any input.​

 

[N64]

If the second half of your quick attack is at a downward angle, you'll "snap" to the ledge, and it's difficult-to-impossible for most characters to intercept it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Notv_iEFfHs
Watch that set (was the first one I found on youtube) and watch how Axe gets to the ledge. Pay attention to his spacing and angle selection when recovering. The only way Marth can really deal with this is to get close enough to the ledge and put out a hitbox earlier that will catch your pancake hitbox at the vertex, instead of catching you during the second half of your quick attack.

If anything else is unclear let me know :D

 

[RAT!]

Thanks man, this is really helpful

 

[RAT!]

If the second half of your quick attack is at a downward angle, you'll "snap" to the ledge, and it's difficult-to-impossible for most characters to intercept it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Notv_iEFfHs
Watch that set (was the first one I found on youtube) and watch how Axe gets to the ledge. Pay attention to his spacing and angle selection when recovering. The only way Marth can really deal with this is to get close enough to the ledge and put out a hitbox earlier that will catch your pancake hitbox at the vertex, instead of catching you during the second half of your quick attack.

If anything else is unclear let me know :D

Disclaimer: This reply is very long, sorry.

I watched the set, I noticed that he safely recovered when ranged further away before using the second length of up-b to clip to the ledge; or when he reduces the window Pewpewu has to react and throw out a hitbox by placing the vertex very close to stage before clipping.

I still have some uncertainties though, mainly because of what is displayed in this set:

1: PPMD can intercept a Quick Attack to ledge without needing the hurtbox pancake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_g5Gdr42ig#t=44s
2: PPMD goes as far to the ledge as possible, times his f-smash to the vertex, and gets it easily. I don't think Axe could have spaced it much better, besides going for ledge when he was above stage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_g5Gdr42ig#t=1m59s


I think f-smash out-spaces Pikachu's sweet spot-with-vertex recovery, and this makes its recovery a lot worse against a Marth who can get their timing right. I still think if you have good positioning above stage you have options, but I don't know if there's much hope for the alternative, especially on stages like battlefield where teching is less of an option. I get that people aren't perfect though, and Pikachu can be pretty consistent by saving double jump when recovering and always going for ideal angles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_g5Gdr42ig#t=5m13s (no jump but he's trying to get a good angle I think). He did get a few good angles this set that may have completely out-spaced the f-smash, but it's hard to be sure.

Lastly I think this seems useful because the vertex is at the farthest away possible distance while still sweet spotting; they pretty much have to hit you out of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_g5Gdr42ig#t=4m40s

What do you think? Have any further advice on how this can be better for Pikachu or is this just the reality of things?

 

[N64]

The main thing to note, and I want to make sure it's clear / you understand, is that if you travel at a downward angle with the second part of Pika's upB towards the ledge correctly, Marth cannot interrupt it. He can only hope to catch you before the second part happens (by hitting you at the 'vertex' as you're calling it, the moment between the first and second 'zips' of upB) or to ledgehog you. These are both real threats, but Marth puts himself at risk with either.

(As an aside, to make sure it's clear, the only way for pikachu to actually sweetspot is if he upBs downward to the ledge, any angle that is at all downward sloped. This causes pikachu to "snap" to the edge, his pancake hitboxes don't come out, he's just immediately holding the ledge. If it isn't downward sloped, pika's hitboxes will extend above as normal.)

If he positions to fsmash you at your vertex, and you recognize in time, the best options are probably to either upB directly at the ledge with the first zip (so that you get weak hit fsmash and have the possibility of teching), or upB around and try to land before he can reswing (or land in a place where he can't punish you well). Here's quick MSPaint examples.

You can also wait slightly to see if he swings early (to cover normal sweetspot angle/timing) and then upB up->towards (at a right angle) to go through him after his swing. Or, if he goes to the position early, you can upB starting higher up and try to get to a platform or further in stage (since he can't get there as fast/easily if he's as close to the ledge.)

That's what comes to mind at the moment.

Edit: Second note: This is all assuming you're recovering from below the stage. If you have the option of recovering from above the stage, it is much harder for Marth to edgeguard you. You can either single-zip snap to the ledge (by just going diagonally down) or upB to the top platform or another platform or further into the stage or through Marth (if you're feeling brave) or etc. You have so many more options while he still has to worry about you zipping to the ledge.

 

[RAT!]

Thanks, I understand and these seem like very viable options. I still have 2 things I'm wondering about:

1. What are the requirements for a snap-to-ledge Quick Attack in which the second zip to grab ledge is impossible for Marth to intercept? Are you saying if he has the timing correct to hit you, he'll just hit the pancake certainly and then it's irrelevant whether or not the hit box and hurt box of the second zip connect? Does that mean he can hit a single 'zip' Quick Attack to snap to ledge? I froze a hit box in 20xx and definitely got hit by it angling downwards to grab ledge and it wasn't because of the pancake hit box. The first link I posted was Axe getting hit out of a single hit Quick attack trying to snap to ledge.

2. Do you think Pikachu can set up a snap-to-ledge recovery from below stage that can out-space Marth's f-smash at the furthest point of the ledge?

 

[N64]

1. If you're talking about the first link ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_g5Gdr42ig#t=44s ), Axe didn't snap to the ledge, PPMD just hit him out of second part of upB. The other times in that set were the same, or PPMD hit the vertex pancake hitboxes. I suppose I'm not actually 100% positive that if you 'snap-to-ledge' it's un-interceptable, but if it isn't then the timing window is so tight I have not seen it done successfully before.
note https://youtu.be/r_g5Gdr42ig?t=514 and https://youtu.be/r_g5Gdr42ig?t=528 If it is interceptable, the timing is very tight.

2. https://youtu.be/r_g5Gdr42ig?t=278 makes it look like yes he can. Pancake hitboxes are pretty big though, so maybe not. At that point you probably want to do your upB later/sooner than normal if he's looking for the typical snap-to setup, as marth still has to have his timing pretty precise to hit pancake hitboxes and it's hard to reactionary fsmash. Or do one of the angles I showed, since you won't get tippered at least.

 

[RAT!]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_g5Gdr42ig#t=44s Sorry I was talking about when he interrupted the first zip' with forward smash, not slightly later when hit Axe missing the ledge with a neutral b. As I understand it there's no pancake hurt box at the beginning of Quick Attack, and he definitely hits Axe before he hits the vertex.


Thanks for helping me out with this. You've given me a lot of things to test out

 

[N64]

Np man. Yeah, that looked like an intercept. If Axe was further out he may have been ok (it feels like upB has a little lingering hitbox as you start it), but I don't know exact frame data.