Echo fighters, here to stay?

Grie

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#1
At E3 2018 during smash ultimate’s announcement, Sakurai revealed the concept of echo fighters. While at first glance it is a very nice idea, I believe it was poorly executed and I wish to talk about there future in the next installment of the series.

Now you probably know the concept of echoes, they are direct clone of a specific fighter but with small differences that give a different gameplay experience. But the idea fails miserably because the vast majority of echoes do not differentiate themselves from there base enough to make a good difference. There is only one echo who as been done in a way that seems to be what echoes should all aspire to be, Ken. He an obvious base from Ryu and shares the overall same playstyle of being a shoto type character based around footsies, but they then distance themselves from each other significantly. Ken’s superior mobility and different command inputs makes im a rushdown character based around a large high damage combo tree, while Ryu’s better projectile make im more adequate for long to midrange spacing that leads into is smaller combo game. They have there own strengths and weaknesses and it makes so playing one or the other isn’t a question as they are not quite comparable enough. The same cannot be said about the others.

Daisy, Richter, Dark Pit and Dark Samus play the exact same from there original template, it’s literally « pick whoever you want » because they have no nuances what so ever. While Chrom and Lucina have a large difference from there base, a consistent blade, and Chrom even as a completely different move, there gameplan is identical to there template to the point that Lucina is simply more practical than Marth because the differences are not significant enough to make Marth appealing to people outside of character loyalists.

So what should be done, what is the most practical thing to do in a situation like this? My answer is quite simple, clean it up. But how are we going to go about doing this? Here is what I believe should be done. First change: Lucina, Dark Pit, Daisy and Richter will all become alternate costumes. While echoes are cheaper and might not warrant such a fate, Sakurai actually said that they take more time than we may think, and he is not wrong. Victory animations, taunt animations, damage multipliers on move, it’s all time that ads up over the course of developing the game, time that they could use to polish a veteran significantly. Another reason I believe this is a good choice is with the arrival of the newest newcomer, the hero from Dragon Quest proves that alternate costumes can simply expand a roster while taking minimal time to develop. Imagine the reception if say, solo, the dragon quest 4 variant of the hero was is own echo fighter, the reception would have been extremely different and would have most likely tipped on the negative side, just like the reception to Lucina and Dark Pit in sm4sh. And while they have different abilities in canon that could warrant there own moveset, the heroes probably have unique abilities as well. If a character as similar abilities to a fighter in the roster, making them a costume can simply enhance the representation of a franchise while not generating as much if not any hate whatsoever. Second change: Dark Samus will be decloned. Unlike the other echoes, her wide selection of subtle animations can cause a massive change that makes the character incompatible to transfer into a palet swap. If a random person that never heard of Metroid was told to examine the two characters and tell what was inside the suit if it isn’t a human, they would probably say Samus is a robot, while Dark Samus is a corpse. In that sense Dark Samus will be decloned to give her more phazon like attribute to make her more similar to her in game appearance. And to differentiate herself from her counterpart, Samus herself will gain a completely new and different moveset to replace her old, generic moveset. This will allow Dark Samus to live as her own entity from Samus within smash as well as keeping metroid solid representation in terms of character selection. Final change: kill the spare. For the record, I like Chrom, I believe he is one of the best designed character in the whole game. Is personality is on point, is moveset is on point to is original appearance in awakening, he is simply perfect. But I do not know what to do with im. He ends up a bit repetitive in terms of fe’s cast, can’t really become a costume of Roy due to changes that would make zero sense (like falchion lighting itself in fire, Chrom using a reverse grip for is sword it simply makes no sense) so if he is not in a situation where the roster benefits from is inclusion, he is highly dependable. Ken would also get the boot but ONLY if Ryu is axed because cutting someone like him would be somewhat pointless.

So this is what I have to say about this subject. If I sounded overly negative it’s simply because Sakurai’s recent decisions make me lose faith in these characters getting improved for the better and It think it is for the better that such changes be made to not needlessly cut a character that can still be playable without taking up anything sort of developement time as small as it can be and for the characters themselves to not get hated for existing.
 
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#2
The only real thing that bothers me is when two echo fighters are the exact same in terms of how they play. I don't mind differences, big or small, as long as there ARE differences and they aren't completely different characters enough to stand on their own. I can understand Simon and Richter being different because they're third-party and it's clear Sakurai wanted both of them to be their own entity, and while it would've been nice to see them have SOME differences, I can accept them being the same the way they are.

Then you have Peach/Daisy, Samus/Dark Samus, and Pit/Dark Pit that had no reason to not just be palette swaps. Those bother me quite badly.

Also, something I don't see enough people talking about: certain fighters that SHOULD have been echo fighters, but aren't. What reason other than some weird sense of loyalty to the source material does Sakurai have to make Mario and Dr. Mario two completely different fighters? Young Link/Toon Link? Hell maybe even Pikachu/Pichu. It's weird honestly.
 

Sebas22

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#3
It's not really hard to come up with an original moveset for Dark Pit and Daisy. In fact, it's extra weird that Sakurai didn't put more attention to Dark Pit moves, given all the weapons available in Uprising.
 

GhostM

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#4
Also, something I don't see enough people talking about: certain fighters that SHOULD have been echo fighters, but aren't. What reason other than some weird sense of loyalty to the source material does Sakurai have to make Mario and Dr. Mario two completely different fighters? Young Link/Toon Link? Hell maybe even Pikachu/Pichu. It's weird honestly.
I can see where you’re coming from since I too found it weird that these characters weren’t considered echo fighters, but I believe it’s because they were already introduced as full characters before. I assume if they decided to bring Dr. Mario, Pichu, and the rest of the characters into Ultimate for the first time (who are clones), then maybe they would’ve been introduced as echo fighters.
 

osby

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#5
I still don't get why people want more differences in clones and then want to turn them into costumes, erasing any differences they might have.

It's not really hard to come up with an original moveset for Dark Pit and Daisy. In fact, it's extra weird that Sakurai didn't put more attention to Dark Pit moves, given all the weapons available in Uprising.
It's not weird at all. "Coming up with a moveset" is infinitely easier than actually spending time and resources for actually realizing said moveset.

Dark Pit still uses his signature weapons in Smash.
 

Sebas22

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#7
It's not weird at all. "Coming up with a moveset" is infinitely easier than actually spending time and resources for actually realizing said moveset.

Dark Pit still uses his signature weapons in Smash.
His signature weapons act the same as Pit's. The only weapon that is different is the staff which is his Final Smash. There are no claws, no cannons, no palms, no attack orbitars to be seen. And I think I'm missing another type of weapon.. it was like a gun (Last time I played Uprising was like 7 years ago). I just hoped for something different, like what happened to Isabelle.
 

Mic_128

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#8
I still don't get why people want more differences in clones and then want to turn them into costumes, erasing any differences they might have.
Not to mention that as costumes, they'd lose unique characteristics such as animations (Samus vs Dark Samus) or effect colours(Peach vs Daisy)

I don't see the need to remove what does make them unique and turn them into simple costumes. Would it have been awesome if they were all completely unique characters? sure. It may even happen in the next game (Look at Mario/Luigi/Doc, Marth/Roy) But I'm happy to get these few minor extras, when the alternative was simply not to get them at all.
 

Xelrog

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#9
It's not really hard to come up with an original moveset for Dark Pit and Daisy.
It's not about whether it could be done. It's whether it's worth the effort, and it really isn't. Echo characters are in the game because they're easy to make. The choice isn't between Daisy being an echo and Daisy being a fully original character. The choice is between her being an echo vs. not being in the game at all.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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#10
At E3 2018 during smash ultimate’s announcement, Sakurai revealed the concept of echo fighters. While at first glance it is a very nice idea, I believe it was poorly executed and I wish to talk about there future in the next installment of the series.

Now you probably know the concept of echoes, they are direct clone of a specific fighter but with small differences that give a different gameplay experience. But the idea fails miserably because the vast majority of echoes do not differentiate themselves from there base enough to make a good difference. There is only one echo who as been done in a way that seems to be what echoes should all aspire to be, Ken. He an obvious base from Ryu and shares the overall same playstyle of being a shoto type character based around footsies, but they then distance themselves from each other significantly. Ken’s superior mobility and different command inputs makes im a rushdown character based around a large high damage combo tree, while Ryu’s better projectile make im more adequate for long to midrange spacing that leads into is smaller combo game. They have there own strengths and weaknesses and it makes so playing one or the other isn’t a question as they are not quite comparable enough. The same cannot be said about the others.

Daisy, Richter, Dark Pit and Dark Samus play the exact same from there original template, it’s literally « pick whoever you want » because they have no nuances what so ever. While Chrom and Lucina have a large difference from there base, a consistent blade, and Chrom even as a completely different move, there gameplan is identical to there template to the point that Lucina is simply more practical than Marth because the differences are not significant enough to make Marth appealing to people outside of character loyalists.

So what should be done, what is the most practical thing to do in a situation like this? My answer is quite simple, clean it up. But how are we going to go about doing this? Here is what I believe should be done. First change: Lucina, Dark Pit, Daisy and Richter will all become alternate costumes. While echoes are cheaper and might not warrant such a fate, Sakurai actually said that they take more time than we may think, and he is not wrong. Victory animations, taunt animations, damage multipliers on move, it’s all time that ads up over the course of developing the game, time that they could use to polish a veteran significantly. Another reason I believe this is a good choice is with the arrival of the newest newcomer, the hero from Dragon Quest proves that alternate costumes can simply expand a roster while taking minimal time to develop. Imagine the reception if say, solo, the dragon quest 4 variant of the hero was is own echo fighter, the reception would have been extremely different and would have most likely tipped on the negative side, just like the reception to Lucina and Dark Pit in sm4sh. And while they have different abilities in canon that could warrant there own moveset, the heroes probably have unique abilities as well. If a character as similar abilities to a fighter in the roster, making them a costume can simply enhance the representation of a franchise while not generating as much if not any hate whatsoever. Second change: Dark Samus will be decloned. Unlike the other echoes, her wide selection of subtle animations can cause a massive change that makes the character incompatible to transfer into a palet swap. If a random person that never heard of Metroid was told to examine the two characters and tell what was inside the suit if it isn’t a human, they would probably say Samus is a robot, while Dark Samus is a corpse. In that sense Dark Samus will be decloned to give her more phazon like attribute to make her more similar to her in game appearance. And to differentiate herself from her counterpart, Samus herself will gain a completely new and different moveset to replace her old, generic moveset. This will allow Dark Samus to live as her own entity from Samus within smash as well as keeping metroid solid representation in terms of character selection. Final change: kill the spare. For the record, I like Chrom, I believe he is one of the best designed character in the whole game. Is personality is on point, is moveset is on point to is original appearance in awakening, he is simply perfect. But I do not know what to do with im. He ends up a bit repetitive in terms of fe’s cast, can’t really become a costume of Roy due to changes that would make zero sense (like falchion lighting itself in fire, Chrom using a reverse grip for is sword it simply makes no sense) so if he is not in a situation where the roster benefits from is inclusion, he is highly dependable. Ken would also get the boot but ONLY if Ryu is axed because cutting someone like him would be somewhat pointless.

So this is what I have to say about this subject. If I sounded overly negative it’s simply because Sakurai’s recent decisions make me lose faith in these characters getting improved for the better and It think it is for the better that such changes be made to not needlessly cut a character that can still be playable without taking up anything sort of developement time as small as it can be and for the characters themselves to not get hated for existing.
How did the echo characters concept fail miserably?

The word echo means 'a reverberation after the original sound'. In japanese, they are called Dash Fighters and are marked by the ' symbol. In Math, that symbol is used to designate something that is derived from something else. Hence, Echo/Dash Fighters=copies or clones of an original fighter. Based on this, the concept works exactly as intended by the developers, so where did they fail exactly? It looks more like you projecting your personal wants on what an echo fighter should be and this caused you to mislead yourself on the meaning of the concept.

Secondly, echoes take less time than actual characters. They require more effort than alts for sure, but they still aren't significant to be considered a huge workload. So assuming that making them alts would magically translate into more quality control for existing characters is a fallacy. That's a very common coping mechanism that people come up with when they don't understand some of the game design nuances in Smash. Someone like Dark Pit or Lucina heavily derive from their originals that their only differences are in stats for certain moves, so they can easily be balanced side to side. So, sorry to break it you, but your favorite veteran isn't going to immediately favored just because you off a couple of echoes and make them alts.

Making them alts at this point is unnecessary as well because a partial solution already exists. Simply merge their portraits on the roster screen, that way they function more like alts of an existing character.

Also, you speak of the implementation of the Heroes from DQ as if it was a novel concept, when in actuality it has been done before. Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings and Olimar and Alph are notorious examples. In Jr.'s case it's probably because it would be silly to have 7 echoes of the same character, while in Alp's case it's probably because his mechanics didn't differ enough to warrant his own spot.

Some people speak of echoes/clones as if they were something that needs to be fixed, or a disease that must be cured, but they miss the whole point for the most part. They are meant to be an aesthetic alternative rather than a gameplay one. Whether I choose Dark Pit or Pit would up to my personal preference for the most part rather for a tactical one. And I think it's silly to care about what some random thinks of Samus and Dark Samus to the point of influencing a creative decision; most average joes probably don't even know that Samus is a woman.

Imagine if the dev team implemented all the changes to the clones that you suggested on the next iteration, then Sakurai is like "Oh hey, I'll use my spare time to add two more echo fighters". The game then releases and because people tend to focus on the negatives. they will ironically see those two characters as the devs being lazy. They will be mad but because of their ignorance. Then someone will suggest a way to "fix" the issue and comes up with a way to make those clones more unique that those lazy devs couldn't accomplish. Then everyone pats themselves on the back for a job well done, but not really.
 
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#13
I can see where you’re coming from since I too found it weird that these characters weren’t considered echo fighters, but I believe it’s because they were already introduced as full characters before. I assume if they decided to bring Dr. Mario, Pichu, and the rest of the characters into Ultimate for the first time (who are clones), then maybe they would’ve been introduced as echo fighters.
That's what I meant by "some weird sense of loyalty to the source material." There's no other reason really.
 

Xelrog

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#14
They've also been differentiated over the course of time, keep in mind. Well, most of them. Doc is now reasonably different from Mario with different throws and his down special, Young Link is pretty different from regular Link by virtue of regular Link being changed so much in this game. The only one I would argue is close enough to be an echo would be Pichu, as it's really just Pikachu with tweaks to its properties. Even then the two are Ryu-Ken tier different.
 

Arthur97

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#15
Not to mention that as costumes, they'd lose unique characteristics such as animations (Samus vs Dark Samus) or effect colours(Peach vs Daisy)

I don't see the need to remove what does make them unique and turn them into simple costumes. Would it have been awesome if they were all completely unique characters? sure. It may even happen in the next game (Look at Mario/Luigi/Doc, Marth/Roy) But I'm happy to get these few minor extras, when the alternative was simply not to get them at all.
I'm not sure they're interested in decloning newer clones.
 

Quillion

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#16
Daisy, Dark Samus, and Richter are echoes instead of alts because their animations exude a different personality than their templates. Lucina and Dark Pit have some (albeit small) mechanical differences from their templates.

Some are better than others, though, with Richter the closest to being alt material. But still, you can't really imagine Daisy with Peach's dainty mannerisms, nor Dark Samus without her alien movements.

I've come around on agreeing that Alph with Rockmin would be echo material, but he's still faithful to canon where he is.

You just can't give alts different animations since that would disappoint if the alt has a canonically different personality. Pokémon Trainer only gets away with Red and Green being different because they're completely cosmetic.
 
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#17
Actually, all echo fighters have nuances. They're just not significant enough (hence their subtleties) to the point that playing one somehow affects the other. I'd say it's lazier to make echo fighters, but I understand that it's probably simpler. Quite frankly, I like Dark Samus' design compared to her palette from SSB4.
 

Arthur97

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#18
Outside of Ken and maybe Richter since some of Simon's moves come from him, every echo is wasted potential and inaccurate, and if Ganondorf is any indication, they're unlikely to ever reach their full potential. If Lucina and Dark Pit are any indication, they're unlikely to even hit Ganondorf's status.
 

Saikyoshi

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#20
I don't mind the echo fighters being there. Like, at all. But the concept has been done much better before, barely changing any animations but resulting in a completely different experience.
:falcomelee::drmario::pichumelee::ganondorfmelee::younglinkmelee::roymelee:
All they had to do to differentiate those was to tweak some numbers.

Here's roughly what I'd do for each of the echoes in Ultimate, changing absolutely zero animations or assets so they wouldn't require more labor than they've already had;
  • :ultlucina::ultchrom::ultken: These, I'm fine with. I'd make Lucina do slightly less damage around the board to give players more of a reason to pick Marth at all, but that's about it.
  • :ultdaisy: I'd make her feel more "reckless" than the graceful Peach to match her high-energy personality. I'd give her better running speed, a weaker float, and shorter range but higher power on her smash attacks, making her a more ground-focused, up-close-and-personal fighter.
  • :ultdarkpit: Even being biologically identical, their weapons have different properties in their source game: the difference between the Palutena's Bow and Silver Bow in Kid Icarus: Uprising is that the Palutena's Bow has faster shots and stronger dash shots, which fits Pit already, while the Silver Bow has a better range with stronger melee attacks.
  • :ultdarksamus: I'd make her floatier to reflect that she levitates, and her Phazon attacks more dangerous, making her somewhat of a Mewtwo-esque Glass Cannon.
  • :ultrichter: Even changing the angles he throws his projectiles would affect his gameplay significantly. As I haven't played Rondo of Blood, I'm not sure exactly how his playstyle should lean more towards, but that is at least a class of changes that seems obvious enough to make.
 
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Arthur97

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#21
Ken and Richter are the only ones I don't think really need a change. Richter because of how many of the moves are his (though I think I saw an idea of having Simon give up some of Richter's more acrobatic moves in favor of more whip moves which I'd be cool with). Ken is pretty obvious why he doesn't need a change.

Chrom could use some tweaks certainly, and Lucina is a laughably bad representation of the character even in just her voice lines, but I won't go into my various changes.

Daisy should probably just be reworked to be more sporty all around. Give her one of her sport outfits while we're at it.

Dark Pit has a variety of weapons they could give him. So they should.

Dark Samus has so much potential. I mean, they like gimmicks, give it a Phazon meter or something. Have some of its throws make use of its weird nature by having Dark Samus pump them through her body and out the other arm. At the very least use the assist trophy area attack for a down smash.
 

Saikyoshi

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#22
Ken and Richter are the only ones I don't think really need a change. Richter because of how many of the moves are his (though I think I saw an idea of having Simon give up some of Richter's more acrobatic moves in favor of more whip moves which I'd be cool with). Ken is pretty obvious why he doesn't need a change.

Chrom could use some tweaks certainly, and Lucina is a laughably bad representation of the character even in just her voice lines, but I won't go into my various changes.

Daisy should probably just be reworked to be more sporty all around. Give her one of her sport outfits while we're at it.

Dark Pit has a variety of weapons they could give him. So they should.

Dark Samus has so much potential. I mean, they like gimmicks, give it a Phazon meter or something. Have some of its throws make use of its weird nature by having Dark Samus pump them through her body and out the other arm. At the very least use the assist trophy area attack for a down smash.
The problem with that is all of those defeat the point of each echo fighter being there in the first place. They'd all require new assets, new programming, new animations. That's not an echo fighter, that's a fighter fighter.

That's my problem with most of the posts in this thread, and for that matter, most complaints about echoes in the fandom as a whole. They're missing the point of why and how those characters exist in the first replace. These aren't improving the echo fighter system, they're roundabout full character requests.
 
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Arthur97

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#23
The problem with that is all of those defeat the point of each echo fighter being there in the first place. They'd all require new assets, new programming, new animations. That's not an echo fighter, that's a fighter fighter.

That's my problem with most of the posts in this thread, and for that matter, most complaints about echoes in the fandom as a whole. They're missing the point of why and how those characters exist in the first replace. These aren't improving the echo fighter system, they're roundabout full character requests.
Well, I do hate the echo system. It's a disservice to most of the fighters as it's grossly inaccurate in many cases. Lucina is the worst though as they don't even get her personality right nor do they bother to give her so much as an idle pose of her own (despite having a very unique one in her home game). It gets even worse since they had a clear opportunity to fix that since she's gotten a new VA since 4, but they chose to recycle the same bad voice clips.

Others aren't quite as bad, but most of them could and should be so much more.
 

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#24
Well, I do hate the echo system. It's a disservice to most of the fighters as it's grossly inaccurate in many cases. Lucina is the worst though as they don't even get her personality right nor do they bother to give her so much as an idle pose of her own (despite having a very unique one in her home game). It gets even worse since they had a clear opportunity to fix that since she's gotten a new VA since 4, but they chose to recycle the same bad voice clips.

Others aren't quite as bad, but most of them could and should be so much more.
The alternative is those characters not being included period. If they weren't echoes, they wouldn't be more unique. They just plain wouldn't be. That's what people don't seem to understand.

The clones in Melee were added at the last second to make the roster bigger because the already-tight release deadline Nintendo gave them was approaching fast. Taking the time to make them look more unique in their animations and movesets wouldn't have worked; it would've just resulted in Melee having 19 characters instead of 25.

Same deal with the echoes now.
 
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Arthur97

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#25
The alternative is those characters not being included period. If they weren't echoes, they wouldn't be more unique. They just plain wouldn't be. That's what people don't seem to understand.

The clones in Melee were added at the last second to make the roster bigger because the already-tight release deadline Nintendo gave them was approaching fast. Taking the time to make them look more unique in their animations and movesets wouldn't have worked; it would've just resulted in Melee having 19 characters instead of 25.

Same deal with the echoes now.
And yet those were still handled better.

You needn't lecture me on the alternative or Melee's dev cycle, but given how many people think Lucina is an arrogant hothead who mouths off a lot because of Smash, that is at least one instance where not being in would probably be better. At the very least they could have worked some of that Luigification magic on the veterans, but, no, they actually seemed determined to make them even more samey so excuse me if I hate the echo system.
 

ze9

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#26
Echo fighters are fun, I love playing as Dark Samus and Richter, even if they're mostly the same as their counterparts. In a more limited roster I would have complained, but Ultimate has something like 70 original characters (give or take some of the clones) and a lot of fan-favorites, so I can't complain if they decided to cut some corners to give us some more fanservice.
As long as they're somewhat significant and they still feel like themselves, they're fine in my book.
 

Quillion

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#27
I don't mind the echo fighters being there. Like, at all. But the concept has been done much better before, barely changing any animations but resulting in a completely different experience.
:falcomelee::drmario::pichumelee::ganondorfmelee::younglinkmelee::roymelee:
All they had to do to differentiate those was to tweak some numbers.
Agree here. Some people (including me at times) tend to underestimate how much changing frame data, movement speed, and hitbox properties can still make an echo a whole new experience even if the animations are the same.

That said, Ultimate's echoes are largely more "quick and dirty" than Melee's echoes probably because they don't want to add more balancing work. Melee's balancing work was nowhere near as meticulous as Ultimate's, so the number tweaking in Melee was done relatively with caution to the wind. Smash 4 Doc shows what happens if you number tweak an echo when balancing work is relatively more in depth, so I don't think they wanted to repeat that situation.
 

Xelrog

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#28
Agree here. Some people (including me at times) tend to underestimate how much changing frame data, movement speed, and hitbox properties can still make an echo a whole new experience even if the animations are the same.

That said, Ultimate's echoes are largely more "quick and dirty" than Melee's echoes probably because they don't want to add more balancing work. Melee's balancing work was nowhere near as meticulous as Ultimate's, so the number tweaking in Melee was done relatively with caution to the wind. Smash 4 Doc shows what happens if you number tweak an echo when balancing work is relatively more in depth, so I don't think they wanted to repeat that situation.
Smash 4 Doc didn't break the game, and it was a better game for him being different than it would have been if he was identical to Mario.
 

Quillion

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#29
Smash 4 Doc didn't break the game, and it was a better game for him being different than it would have been if he was identical to Mario.
He wasn't broken, but he really sucked in 4. Which is probably why he was promoted to semi-echo for Ultimate.

But yeah, I do think he was more fun tweaked that way even if he was bad. This is why it would be nice if they put a bit more effort into echoes that way, AND actually balance them. Again, just changing frame data, movement speed, and hitbox properties makes a world of difference in determining a playstyle.
 

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#30
There's enough difference between Pit and Dark Pit for them to be stand alones, for me at least. The arrow game completely changes with DP, and his side special has a much greater edge guard use because of the difference. Also, the angles his smash attacks have will change your game play dramatically if you're a Pit main. Some clones I would do away with (Peach/Daisy, even Marth/Lucina), but Pit/DP shouldn't be included as such. Nor should Pikachu/Pichu, the Links, or the Star Fox characters.
 
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Wigglerman

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#31
I think Echoes are fine, especially when there are differences, even if it isn't via move set. Example: Dark Samus and her unique animations. Daisy and her unique idle pose, etc. It gives the Echo fighter a bit of personality compared to the 'original'. Plus having them fully voiced is way better than yesteryear of Peach having a Daisy pallet but still sounding like Peach. 'Clones' or 'Echos', whatever term we want to use now, don't bother me like they used to. If it means a character makes it as a playable character, not just a costume change, then that's pretty rad in my book. If they have differences other than just voice/animations, that's just gravy.
 

Xelrog

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#32
I think Echoes are fine, especially when there are differences, even if it isn't via move set. Example: Dark Samus and her unique animations. Daisy and her unique idle pose, etc. It gives the Echo fighter a bit of personality compared to the 'original'. Plus having them fully voiced is way better than yesteryear of Peach having a Daisy pallet but still sounding like Peach.
What of the middle ground, alts? Like Alph and the Koopalings? Do you think animations are significant enough to merit a character select slot, as opposed to just having Daisy's unique model as an alt?
 

Quillion

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#33
What of the middle ground, alts? Like Alph and the Koopalings? Do you think animations are significant enough to merit a character select slot, as opposed to just having Daisy's unique model as an alt?
Having different animations on echoes and not alts is kind of a necessary evil due to how hitboxes work. What I wish they'd do is rework hitboxes to solely be on a 2D plane rather than attached to the model, and then maybe alts with different animations other than PT could work.
 

Xelrog

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#34
Having different animations on echoes and not alts is kind of a necessary evil due to how hitboxes work. What I wish they'd do is rework hitboxes to solely be on a 2D plane rather than attached to the model, and then maybe alts with different animations other than PT could work.
I was suggesting that if the only difference is animations it's not worth it, in my opinion. Nix the animations completely and make them an alt. If they're going to be an echo, animations are great, but they need more than only that.
 

Quillion

Smash Master
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#35
I was suggesting that if the only difference is animations it's not worth it, in my opinion. Nix the animations completely and make them an alt. If they're going to be an echo, animations are great, but they need more than only that.
You sound like that "characters are just functions" guy. If animations or any kind of aesthetic aren't important, we might as well replace the characters with fighting polygons.

Some people don't want Peach in a Daisy dress without her sporty personality, and some people don't want to see Dark Samus as a skin without her alien mannerisms.

Gaming is a visual medium. You can't just ignore aspects that are separate from mechanics.
 
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#37
I have fully bought into the echo experience. The thing for me is that I want more.
If we are doing this, let's do this! I want to see many new characters. I also do think they should be slightly better differentiated. Sure, I would prefer one new character to five echoes-- but I'm not going to compare it as an opportunity cost, or comparative resources, because I'm sure DLC would be viable for as long as Sakurai wants to do it, so the real resource is his morale to continue.


Some ideas:
Dixie- Diddy echo with added hair Flight mechanic, altered up and standard specials, hair throw.
Impa- Sheik echo with Ganondorf sword Smashes and altered specials.
Octoling- Inkling Echo who Switches up the weapons and speeds. Many property changes in damage, hurtboxes, speeds, lag, trajectories.
Zero- Megaman echo with big change, Mainly, the shield. Better coverage for smaller hurtboxes. Slightly altered standard moves to incorporate.
Tails- Sonic echo who is slower, weaker, but has much better aerial and a flight mechanic, which can pick up partners in Team battle.
 
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