Ultimate Bowser MU Analysis and Discussion

[UltimaLuminaire]

What's Changed Since E3?

With the game finally out several changes have come to light. Bowser's overall speed seems to be further enhanced, with enhanced jump height, fall speed, and acceleration across the board. Bowser has also seen a buff in weight as well as damage on several moves, including UTilt. These will be exciting times as we continue to explore MUs and discover new ways to use Bowser's kit.

Spoiler: Important Clips & Links

Shield and Parry (Izaw)
Pivot Cancel (Izaw)

The OP will be updated as new info comes to light. Be aware that this is still early in the game's life cycle. Mechanics and values are subject to change as patches roll out. Please keep discussion focused on meta & analysis.

 

[-Kagato-]

I'll briefly repeat what I had posted in the social topic here as well as adding a few more details:

• D-Smash has changed to a double claw swipe that attacks once on each side, starting with the side he's facing.
• Flying Slam properties appear the same, but Bowser spins his opponent like a top on the way down. Unfortunately, Bowser STILL dies first when attempting a Bowsercide, as a Bowsercide used on Ness allowed Ness to attempt to recover. (This personally makes me sad).
• Fortress looks different in the air, with Bowser's shell being more on it's side.
• F-tilt looks different, with Bowser's elbow being bent instead of a straightened arm. Unsure if this affected the hitbox.
• Bowser Bomb still breaks shields.
• D-air still spikes.
• Bowser's first jab is a palm strike. Second hit is still a punch.
• U-throw seems to go way further.
• Either there's armor on his F-smash now, or Tough Guy is back, because he shrugged off a slingshot from Villager during his f-smash animation while around 80%.

 

[B!squick]

I'm super excited about this new DSmash. Even if it sucks, the fact that it's not a less good UpB makes it infinitely more usable.

 

[S_B]

So if you watch this video in slow motion, right around 14:25, Bowser does an aerial bomb and Pikachu is clearly hit by its hitbox BEFORE it begins to descend:

https://youtu.be/sHObjLUQ9gQ?t=14m25s

It also seems to do something strange to Pikachu as it damages him but then falls PAST him? This might be a bug of some kind, and we've seen it happen with Bowser in the treehouse video where he fought Ness and Fsmashed him with 0 knockback (Ness rolled into it).

I'm hoping that this is Bowser's new SA frames glitching out on occasion, but time will tell.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

looks like the down b just hits pikachu, I'm not really seeing what you're seeing here.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

It probably hit a little earlier because of a slight disjoint. In Smash 4 the shell of DAir has a slight disjoint about the length of one of Bowser's spikes.

 

[S_B]

looks like the down b just hits pikachu, I'm not really seeing what you're seeing here.

If you watch it in .25 speed, you can see that Pika jumps up and gets damaged on touching Bowser before he falls, which I suspect might just be one of the bugs that still needs fixing.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

While watching the changes to Bowser's Final Smash, I noticed that Giga Bowser has to land his punch just right to deliver the instant Screen KO against opponents. Mistime it and fighters will simply take high vertical knockback.

Of course, I may need more sources to know how Bowser's new Final Smash really works.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Guys...Bowser can buffer short hop nair now.

This is actually huge. Even in 4, when it was laggy, it could lead to bair and up air at specific percents.

With Bowser's incredibly improved jumpsquat, this will most likely be our combo starter/juggle tool.

 

[S_B]

Landing lag is basically dead and buried in this game:
https://clips.twitch.tv/BoxyRelentlessFoxVoHiYo

 

[Mr. Bones]

Landing lag is basically dead and buried in this game:
https://clips.twitch.tv/BoxyRelentlessFoxVoHiYo

I'm aware. This is still amazing in Bowser's case since we need a combo starter with upthrow out of the picture.

 

[S_B]

I'm aware. This is still amazing in Bowser's case since we need a combo starter with upthrow out of the picture.

Sorry, was trying to add to what you had said.

Yeah, I've watched Bowser recovering from landing nair and it takes no time at all.

Then again, the real key to SSBU is going to be the fact that you can now apparently do ANYTHING out of dash.

This means that Bowser's landing lag being reduced is less of a buff than we think because opponents can run in and punish it more easily.

However, it ALSO means that Bowser's run speed being as good as it is makes him THAT much more terrifying on the ground.

I remember a while back I was fighting a Ness player who used his up+b across the stage and I managed to run over to where he was landing, stop fully and fsmash him for a punish.

That fact that we'll be able to do this ALL THE TIME is enticing to say the least...

 

[Count Bleck]

As we can see here, down tilt can now trip, leading to a free f smash into a fallen ganondorf. No telling if it's guaranteed or just a chance though.

 

[S_B]

Shellguard is back.

https://m.twitch.tv/videos/274148964

You can see it at 3:21:10 in his video when an usmash protects Bowser from Snake's hammer.

Edit: and tough guy is definitely back as well, seen at 1:51:20 when Bowser TGs M2's rapid jab.

I'm guessing TG is grounded only, but it seems to work at very high percentages.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

It looks very unlikely that the fsmash is guaranteed after that dtilt trip, but it DOES look like you could follow up with lots of other things.

Could you jab lock off trips in smash 4 or just missed techs

 

[S_B]

It looks very unlikely that the fsmash is guaranteed after that dtilt trip, but it DOES look like you could follow up with lots of other things.

Could you jab lock off trips in smash 4 or just missed techs

I believe it was only missed techs.

Also, I get the feeling Dtilt will be a good move for tech chases, if it does indeed trip reliably.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

If it trips reliably with browsers run speed that would be real nice - you can even grab a tripped opponent so if it works that's just extra percent eyyy

 

[-Kagato-]

I'm hearing from various sources that opponents can "mash out" of Ridley's command grab (both regular and Ridleycide) as well as Ganondorf's Ganoncide. Makes me wonder if mashing out of a Flying Slam is possible now as well. If this is a trend, then I'm thinking it might be true. If mashing is based around percentages, then a Bowsercide probably would be pointless to do anyway, since at high percents, the opponent is going to likely die from it regardless.

On one hand, I understand the reasoning behind this, if true. But on the other hand... muh bowsercide ;_;

 

[Gimpyfish62]

Bowsercide looks significantly worse either way I saw a treehouse guy almost survive one with what looked like easy double jump up b timing on video

As long as they can't break out of the move itself and unt actually works then we good

 

[MetroLSD]

I remember reading somewhere that his N-Air was changed to a simple shell spin, can someone confirm this?

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

No. You can see when Lucky spams NAir (with no one around to hit) that it is the same NAir from Smash 4. The key difference is less landing lag. Counting frames, ball park 6 frames less, so 14 frames.

 

[S_B]

Bowsercide looks significantly worse either way I saw a treehouse guy almost survive one with what looked like easy double jump up b timing on video

As long as they can't break out of the move itself and unt actually works then we good

While I do think it's insane that Bowser dies first, all I truly want for the move is consistency and if he dies first ALL the time and the opponent can break free and get back to the stage, then I can judge whether or not each enemy has the recovery that will allow them to succeed or whether I've still basically taken a stock by using the move.

Then again, if stages have varying blast zone floors...

Yeah, I'll probably just use Bowser's increased steering to ensure I drop people on platforms every time.

Edit: aerial Bowser bomb has a meteor effect now:
https://youtu.be/tryPcV7nNzI
You can see Bowser push Ness through the cloud at 4:25.

 

[-Kagato-]

I watched it in slow-motion and it certainly appears that way. Too much madness going on to be 100% though.

 

[S_B]

You can see it here as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHObjLUQ9gQ&feature=youtu.be&t=14m25s

The difference is that Pika was at 12% when he was meteored whereas Ness was at 110% when hit.

I actually really like that change because it made zero sense that Bowser was plowing butt-first downward through an enemy and it launched them up at an angle as he did so. In my wildest dreams, bomb became a pseudo command grab on the way down where enemies caught by it would be carried downward and smashed into the stage (though you could argue Bowser has enough of those as is).

I'm wondering if it's possible to meteor someone to the ground and then hit them again when they get there...

The other point of note is that Pikachu is hit by the bomb before Bowser begins descending, which I can't help but feel is a bug because it makes no sense for it to be a hitbox while Bowser is still rising into the air. Otherwise, Bowser will have a god-tier edgeguard, so long as bomb still grabs the ledge on the way down, allowing Bowser to float beside the ledge for ~1 second as a big, meteoring hitbox.

As I said, this HAS to be a bug...

I also need to note that I have yet to see Bowser knocked out of descending Bowser bomb by anything, but I have seen him crush through some projectiles that had the potential to harm him (which makes him freeze in the air for a moment) but he takes no damage, which I'm guessing is just aerial clanking.

(why yes, I AM dire curious to know if Bowser bomb has SA on the descent, what gave it away? )

It's worth noting that DK's side+B has SA on it now, meaning it's clear that they're giving heavies more SA this time around (which is great).

 

[B!squick]

Nice, Smash Boards keeps crashing and thus deleting my post before I can finish it. Let's try this again.

So SideB has gone from an amazing multi purpose move, to the only thing keeping him from being completely horrible, to an extremely situational move you only use when you're way ahead and they're out of UpThrow > UpAir percentage, to a move you'll basically never want to use ever.

 

[S_B]

I'm kinda worried that Bowser might suck overall now. Unless they've buffed some of his throws to godly knockback and we've just not seen it, the only real reason Bowser wasn't D-tier were his throw combos. While I'd RATHER they make him work without needing to rely on throw combos, I don't know if I'm seeing it happening...

I mean, he's faster, but the entire game is faster. We've been tricked in the past by the game speed making it seem like Bowser will finally be fast enough that small, quick characters won't be able to destroy him and we've been wrong. The only reason Bowser stood a chance in 4 was because he only needed to land ~3 grabs for an almost guaranteed KO.

Unless he has something else going for him that we're not seeing, it should just be a simple matter of getting him offstage and then edgeguarding his ultra predictable recovery to dispose of him...

Maybe tough guy will be better than we think. At around 1:50 in this video, we can see Bowser dash attack right through M2's jab:
https://youtu.be/HR2ay7RbauY

 

[Gimpyfish62]

So SideB has gone from an amazing multi purpose move, to the only thing keeping him from being completely horrible, to an extremely situational move you only use when you're way ahead and they're out of UpThrow > UpAir percentage, to a move you'll basically never want to use ever.

First - we literally do not know if up throw up air is a thing at all
So side b still does a grip of damage, does a lot of knockback, and yknowwww.... you can grab from the air. That's a real good thing.

Idk at what point it was "the only thing keeping him from being completely horrible" and idk when it was "an extremely situational move you only use when you're way ahead"

how in the world is this going to be a move you never want to use ever?
I'm a bit confused here.

 

[S_B]

Sadly we see him use Uthrow around 3:25 here and the knockback is far too high to combo but too low to kill:
https://youtu.be/75_cQGCyPqM

Unless there's some weird knockback growth on it that we've not seen because this is the only time I've seen it used yet.

I wonder if it still has the insane collateral knockback...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I heard that Bowser's Side B is no longer lagless upon landing. Can anybody confirm?

 

[Gimpyfish62]

Can confirm that obvious bug (that was fun and useful for bowser players) is no longer in this game

 

[S_B]

Can confirm that obvious bug (that was fun and useful for bowser players) is no longer in this game

Yeah, I'm starting to think we should count ourselves lucky to not be in F-tier this game...

Shame that throw combo jank is the only way to be viable but I feel like it's sadly inevitable.

I remember people saying that Bowser excelled at "poke and punish" gameplay...except that this describes what most of the cast does anyway. Bowser's punishes need to be strong enough that failing to avoid them 3-4 times will result in death, and yet before throw followups, Bowser struggled to actually finish stocks.

Maybe the new aggressive playstyle of SSBU will make things shake out differently, but unless that happens... yeah, I'm fearful for Bowser's future (hope to hell I'm wrong, though...).

Again, he LOOKS faster, but the whole game is faster so it likely evens out. I guess we'll see...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Definitely not judging Bowser until I have him in my hands to test stuff with. But yeah, the universal changes to the game don't seem like they'll help Bowser more than the average character. Though I am excited about the running Dtilts and Utilts. If perfect shielding ends up being very easy to perform, then I could see our punish game really shining.

On Dtilt, it appears both hits have significantly reduced knockback and damage, dealing about 6 damage on each swipe. So yes, there will be significantly more tripping in this game than in Smash 4 which stopped tripping once they were past 15% damage or so. I bet Bowser Bomb will combo from a trip. It should also give us a move to lock with if we're ever in a position to catch a missed tech. Also assuming that they actually put locking in the game, since the demo seemed to just play the animation without locking the victim's ability to roll away. The old Dtilt 1 swipe seems to be on the new Dsmash. Looks pretty strong if it knocks sheik that far at mid percent with no rage. But also pretty slow if you miss or get blocked.

The new Air Fortress hitbox multihitting properly gives me hope. Hope that it will protect us more as we return to the ledge. Because it's still a very slow traveling move. It doesn't seem to travel as high as a boosted fortress from the last game, but for all we know boosting is still in the game and nobody has done it. It would also be nice if the special fall landing lag from the move was dropped from 50 to 30. I can't think of a compelling reason why this move was so punishable onstage in the last game, and if they intend for this to be a combo finisher then they probably thought to fix the landing lag.

 

[S_B]

I feel like their goal with Bowser was to make a rushdown brawler that wants to make the stage feel claustrophobic for his opponent due to his sheer size and oppressive presence.

But what they don't seem to get is that this presence only matters if Bowser is actually oppressive. So long as he's combo food, he's never going to be oppressive to the characters that he'll inevitably have the most difficult matchups against.

Bowser needs some kind of get out of jail card when it comes to combos (as do all heavies, really) so he can't just be comboed past the point of negating his weight advantage. Nair seems to start up faster now, but again, the whole game is faster so it's hard to judge.

Maybe in a game that punishes shielding more than it punishes aggression Bowser's rushdown playstyle may actually work without needing throw combos as a crutch.

Or maybe they'll at least readd throw combos later if it's not working...

 

[Mr. Bones]

I'm kinda worried that Bowser might suck overall now....

...I mean, he's faster, but the entire game is faster. We've been tricked in the past by the game speed making it seem like Bowser will finally be fast enough that small, quick characters won't be able to destroy him and we've been wrong...

Unless he has something else going for him that we're not seeing, it should just be a simple matter of getting him offstage and then edgeguarding his ultra predictable recovery to dispose of him...

There is a huge difference in this compared to his other speed buffs. They tricked us before because he had a faster run speed but still lack luster frame data and clunky movement.

The universal jumpsquat buffs are actually more beneficial to us because it's a massive 5 frame difference. It's visibly better. This is huge because it gives us aggressive short hop options that were risky/impossible to do in 4 against characters with faster jumps/aerials.

Plus, with Nair buffed, we have a third aerial to use it with. An aerial that's good for combo starting and juggling.

Even though side-b is no longer lagless on landing, it has a faster startup. Combined with the faster jump, we can snatch people off platforms above us before they can even blink for meaty damage or a kill at higher percents. (Or low percents if we have a stock lead)

Also, if his up-b in ultimate works the same way as in Smash 4, his recovery is actually deceptively good as long as you keep your double jump.

 

[S_B]

There is a huge difference in this compared to his other speed buffs. They tricked us before because he had a faster run speed but still lack luster frame data and clunky movement.

His frame data looks better and with smoother movement overall, sure, but we've learned in the past that drawing conclusions in a vacuum is never a good idea.

I'll still main Bowser either way, but it'd be nice to not have that ONE character in the game that just invalidates Bowser's entire existence for a change (Sheik, D3, Bayo, ???).

I'll be cautiously optimistic that the way the game prefers attack over defense this time around will make things shake out better for Bowser.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Wait... how does D3 invalidate Bowser? We disintegrate him...

ZSS and Rosa are the biggest problems honestly.

 

[meleebrawler]

Wait... how does D3 invalidate Bowser? We disintegrate him...

ZSS and Rosa are the biggest problems honestly.

, not . Though the latter certainly needs a rework far more than Bowser currently does.

 

[S_B]

Wait... how does D3 invalidate Bowser? We disintegrate him...

ZSS and Rosa are the biggest problems honestly.

Infinite chaingrab on him in Brawl, I meant.

In each game, Bowser has basically had at least one foil that means that it was generally a bad idea to put any real time into labbing him if you want to be competitive. SBB4 is the first where he didn't have a foil until Bayo showed up.

Bad matchups are one thing but invalidating matchups are another story, and those have plagued Bowser for most of the series.

Basically, this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeOlLW5srjg
...has been Bowser's story.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Thought I'd grab some damage values from what we can see in the demo since I felt like Bowser should have been hitting a bit harder on his moves. I also timestamped sources to each move.

Assumptions: the 1v1 damage modifier is precisely 20%. The freshness bonus and move staling are the same as in Smash 4

Jab 1 and Jab 2. Fresh 1v1 damage = 5.0% and 7.6%. If this were Smash 4's values, the damage would be 6.3% and ~8.2%, so this is a slight damage nerf. Jab 1 also appears to have less damage here at 4.1%. New sourspot?

Ftilt Fresh 1v1 damage = 15.1%. Unchanged from Smash 4's damage

Utilt Fresh 1v1 damage = 11.3%. Unchanged from Smash 4's damage

Dtilt Fresh 1v1 damage = 6.0% and both swipes appear to deal the same amount. Of course this is much less than Smash 4's.

Dash Attack Fresh 1v1 damage = 15.1%. Unchanged from Smash 4's damage

F-Smash Fresh 1v1 damage = 29.8% If this were Smash 4's values, the damage would be ~29.0%. Though I notice it was charged a bit (Smash 4 Fsmash enters charging state just a few frames into the move), so let's call it equal.

Some late hit of F-Smash Fresh 1v1 damage = 17.6. This is consistent with the late, sourspot hit from Smash 4. And I want to point it out since there didn't appear to be any knockback.

U-Smash Fresh 1v1 damage = 24.8%. If this were Smash 4's values, the damage would be 25.2% on sweetspot. Might be a small damage nerf since the smash did not appear to be charged.

D-Smash Swipe 1 Fresh 1v1 damage = 16.7%

D-Smash Swipe 2 Fresh 1v1 damage = 18.9%.

N-Air Fresh 1v1 damage = 6.5% per hit. IF this were Smash 4 it would be ~7.56% per hit so this is a slight nerf.

F-Air Fresh 1v1 damage = 13.8%. This appears to be consistent with the 11% sourspot value from Smash 4.Though I have seen it do more so the far sweetspot must still exist.

B-Air Fresh 1v1 damage = 19.9%. Would be ~23.9% from Smash 4, so this is a nerf.

U-Air Fresh 1v1 damage = 15.8%. Would be 19.9% from Smash 4.

D-Air Fresh 1v1 damage = 20.1%. If this were Smash 4's values, the damage would be 20.1% or 20.2% depending on how they choose to round. Let's call it equal.

Side B Fresh 1v1 damage = 18.9% Would deal 22.7% from Smash 4, looks like a nerf.

Grounded Up B Fresh 1v1 damage = 13.6% total. Would be ~13.9 from Smash 4, but I also think it's hitting one less overall so maybe they tweaked damage values a bit. It's too fast to tell from footage.

Aerial Up B Total Free for All damage = 12.6, Should be 15.1% in 1v1.

Grounded Down B Rising hit Free for All damage = 4.2%. Should be ~5.0 in 1v1. Unchanged damage from Smash 4.

Aerial Down B Free for All damage = 20.0% Should be 24.0% in 1v1. Unchanged from Smash 4's damage.

Pummel Fresh 1v1 damage = 2.0%. Def faster than Smash 4's, but that one would deal 3.78 in this game.

Fthrow Fresh 1v1 damage = 12.6%. Would be 15.1% from Smash 4

Bthrow Fresh 1v1 damage = 12.6%. Would be 15.1% from Smash 4.

Uthrow Fresh 1v1 damage = ~0.6% each on multihit. The eighth hit appears to deal 2.5%. The final hit deals 7.6%. So the last two hits have improved immensely from what would have been 1.26% and 2.52%. In total the damage has gone from ~8% to 14.3%

Dthrow Fresh 1v1 damage = 13.6% and 5.1%. Smash 4's version would be 12.6 and 2.52%. So this is a notable improvement.

Edit: whoops hit post early. Still looking for stuff to add.

Interestingly, most of the damage nerfs (Fthrow, Bthrow, B-air, U-air) are exactly 20% from what their Smash 4 values would look like.

Also as a bonus we Tough Guy through Mewtwo's Rapid Jab now so that's fun. His Rapid Jab was not armored in the last game unless we were crouching.

Edit 2: Looks like our damage wasn't nerfed on any moves except for our jabs. It has come to my attention that the 1v1 damage multiplier shuts off whenever items are present.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Bowser is dead.