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Dtilt vs Dsmash
- Thread starter tobakudan
- Start date
Metallinatus
Smash Lord
You will love to do DSmashes when you're at the edge of the stage, as it will send the opponents off stage....
Down Tilt is usually used if you just want to put the opponent in the air, and it makes a good combination with Crouch Cancel....
I guess that covers kinda well when to use each option. Basically, DSmash is one of Samus' best tools for sending the opponent off stage.
Down Tilt is usually used if you just want to put the opponent in the air, and it makes a good combination with Crouch Cancel....
I guess that covers kinda well when to use each option. Basically, DSmash is one of Samus' best tools for sending the opponent off stage.
Dtilt combos into turn around grab or turn around dtilt at low percents against fast fallers
Dtilt is generally safer on shield with quicker cool down to avoid getting grabbed or kneed.... or shine upsmashed after choosing this option instead of dsmash
Dsmash you can DI up to survive longer, which opponents can abuse should you be using this to say edgeguard sheik after they up b onto stage
Generally don't use a smash attack unless you are confident it will hit, or will not be upset you got punished for it.
Dsmash also combos into bair for some %s....
Dsmash arguably has the larger area covered despite smaller hitboxes.
You rarely if ever want to use dtilt to edgeguard (yes it reaches the further below the stage out of all of samus's moves) however most cases you will not finish the stock or be in a position to follow up
Kataquax
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2016
- Messages
- 32
okay it is dependent from the %s if you want to use D-smash or d-tilt in your situation
that is true if you also count the 2nd hitbox (the one behind samus) of the D-smash else the d-tilt coveres more area
what would you use against fox/falco recovering from below?
Dangle fsmash
hold ledge into invins nair onto stage
up tilt
low angle f tilt
grab ledge, let go fast fall into up b to clip fox/falco recovering from low into regrab --> bair/nair
grab ledge, let go, fast fall zair to hit recovering fox /falco & grapple stage at same time
(only vs falco) run off, bomb on falco during fox fire for lulz (he goes down, you go up) repeat until trolldom completed/flaco ded
Kataquax
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2016
- Messages
- 32
All of them are better than d-tilt IF you hit them! ... but comparing to d-tilt:
Dangle fsmash is slower and less likely to hit.
hold ledge into invins nair onto stage is slower but more likely to hit.
up tilt is slower and less likely to hit.
low angle f tilt is just a disrespect-read because it has no downwart extention so it does not hit if fox/falco does the m2k angle correct.
grab ledge, let go fast fall into up b to clip fox/falco recovering from low into regrab --> bair/nair is much slower.
grab ledge, let go, fast fall zair to hit recovering fox /falco & grapple stage at same time is much slower.
(only vs falco) run off, bomb on falco during fox fire for lulz (he goes down, you go up) repeat until trolldom completed/flaco ded is also slower but much more likely to mentaly destroy the opponent and become the trollloard (does also true combo into IRL taunt).
Dangle fsmash is slower and less likely to hit.
hold ledge into invins nair onto stage is slower but more likely to hit.
up tilt is slower and less likely to hit.
low angle f tilt is just a disrespect-read because it has no downwart extention so it does not hit if fox/falco does the m2k angle correct.
grab ledge, let go fast fall into up b to clip fox/falco recovering from low into regrab --> bair/nair is much slower.
grab ledge, let go, fast fall zair to hit recovering fox /falco & grapple stage at same time is much slower.
(only vs falco) run off, bomb on falco during fox fire for lulz (he goes down, you go up) repeat until trolldom completed/flaco ded is also slower but much more likely to mentaly destroy the opponent and become the trollloard (does also true combo into IRL taunt).
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Dangle fsmash is most effective for covering the fire fox recovery because of how far it extends on hit, which can hit the fox/falco before they are able to ride the stage depending on the angle. You can also hold to charge it should the angle be very steep, unlike dtilt where you wiff first then the fox/falco comes within range of trying to sweet spot.
Dtilt hits frame 6, nair hits frame 5, incorrect about which is slower.
Up tilt covers a much greater area, which makes it MORE likely to hit... Mr. I was just complaining about IFFFF you hit them...
Agreed dangle ftilt doesn't hit below but I still don't know what realm we are talking about... the realm of IFFFF you hit them... or realm of possible edgeguards better than dtilt
(also im pretty sure dangle ftilt standing at the ledge covers the shorten side b)
What are you talking about slower? The point in which you wait for the fox/falco to up b, gives them a chance to sweet spot or you to mess up... if you go down there and never let them go to ledge, it is both faster and more effective
Same for Zair hit....
Stop thinking so linearly about standing in place and dtilting for edgeguards, chances are there are better options available (see above)
Faster does not always mean better
More area covered does not always mean better
Bigger hitbox does not always mean better
No one option is better or the best, because your opponent can adapt
I strongly suggest posting questions or simply elaborating on thoughts you have about situations instead of facts as you were above. This way we can have more of a discussion instead of saying this is right this is wrong.
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Kataquax
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2016
- Messages
- 32
sorry i was unclear
all the comparisons are based on the assumption that you are in the position to do the d-tilt and that fox/falco is recovering (or trying to) with the M2K-angle
i propably am thinking to linear... but i still think there are edgeguard siuations where it is a good option
all the comparisons are based on the assumption that you are in the position to do the d-tilt and that fox/falco is recovering (or trying to) with the M2K-angle
i propably am thinking to linear... but i still think there are edgeguard siuations where it is a good option
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Generally you want to always use d-smash after a crouch cancel, while you can throw out d-tilt as a read in neutral, since it is harder to whiff punish. I believe d-tilt has slightly more range too. And at low percents, d-tilt is often preferred vs floaties to not stale your d-smash.
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Staling isn't usually a valid reason to avoid using your kill moves at early percents in melee. Staling only affects kb by lowering the after hit % of your opponent. For example if you dsmash early, then dsmash later, the total dmg output of the 2 dsmashes is higher than dtilt -> dsmash later, so you'd end up losing kb on the 2nd dsmash if you dtilt, unless the dtilt leads into higher dmg through combo.
Some projectiles, (I believe charge shot is one of them) do stale in kb more like in Brawl though.
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Generally you never want to d-smash after a crouch cancel against a competent opponent,
Fox: late nair/dair/bair into shield to bait out the CC or Up B... if you cc dsmash it gives fox... waveshine up smash
Falcon: late nair, or up air into shield... if you cc dsmash it gives falcon free knee into knee....
Sheik: Spaced fair into shield on hit.... if you cc dsmash it gives Sheik free grab into d throw fair
Puff: spaced bair into sheild on hit... if you cc dsmash it gives puff a free rest....
ChivalRuse
I hope you understand why cc dsmash is bad nownot bair auto cancel, they can also shine out there and retreating bair or shine grabLitt Fox bair has too much landing lag for him to be able to get shield up before a well timed cc dsmash hits.
Forgot about auto-cancel bair. Technically Samus is still +6 after crouch + ASDI down against perfect auto-cancel bair, but the dsmash has to be timed perfectly to beat shield, so it's not reliable. Crouch is needed to get the hitlag advantage, and when crouching the weak bair spikes when Samus is below 33%, so it's very conditional as well.
Below those percents id assume the fox is as well and most always go for dtilt to start the combos over dsmash
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
It's not bad. You just have to know when to not use it. It's not a standard neutral option; you only use it when the opponent doesn't respect your cc and throws out a weak attack.Generally you never want to d-smash after a crouch cancel against a competent opponent,
Fox: late nair/dair/bair into shield to bait out the CC or Up B... if you cc dsmash it gives fox... waveshine up smash
Falcon: late nair, or up air into shield... if you cc dsmash it gives falcon free knee into knee....
Sheik: Spaced fair into shield on hit.... if you cc dsmash it gives Sheik free grab into d throw fair
Puff: spaced bair into sheild on hit... if you cc dsmash it gives puff a free rest....
Also, most Fox players aren't going to even attempt to do a late nair because Samus can simply wavedash back and d-smash him anyway, or f-tilt him out of the air.
Most people are smart enough to not try to cc punish Puff's bair.
Vs Sheik, you are mostly just crouch cancel d-smashing her for f-tilting you if she's stupid enough to do that.
Vs Falcon, it doesn't make much sense to crouch cancel, since stomp and knee just can't be crouch cancelled period. Instead, you're usually looking for him to misspace a stomp so that you up-b out of shield or you try to predict an approach and catch his landing with your tilts.
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You almost never want to use it against a competent opponent.
"Most fox players arent going to even attempt to do a late nair"... oh cmon thats just false and you know it
Most people are smart enough not to cc punish puffs bair? except with dtilt.... not dsmash
wut? if sheiks arent going to be throwing out tilts willy nilly... the next step is the mix ups of late fair and auto cancel nair to bait out the cc dsmash....
Knee can actually be cc ed up to 40ish % buddy
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Samus shouldn't be crouch cancelling vs Puff at all. I never said she should cc d-tilt Puff.
I would categorize Samus d-smash similar to Peach's d-smash. People are going to play around it, but that doesn't mean that you can't still hit people with it by outspacing them or baiting them into something cc'able.
I would categorize Samus d-smash similar to Peach's d-smash. People are going to play around it, but that doesn't mean that you can't still hit people with it by outspacing them or baiting them into something cc'able.
Certainly should be ccing puff ... with as you said... by outspacing them or baiting them into something cc'able.... which applies to every goddamn match up smh lol
You are just flip flopping and splitting hairs;
You: Yes you should be cc dsmashing, no you shouldnt be at all, yes you should when its a good option...
As ChivalRuse suggested, dsmash is best used when you have a narrow window for whiff punishing, especially when your back is to the edge, as it will often set up for edgeguards. Despite KLit's objections, there are also places where you can force yourself into range of a CC dsmash by mixing up your spacing and conditioning your opponent to use options that CC dsmash beats. But you must be mindful in these situations, nonetheless; he does have a point that many opponents recognize the strength of CC dsmash, and will have kits to use that strength against you.
Dtilt is more useful as a way to preempt a lot of bad pokes, especially short-hop jump-ins, because of its rather large hit-box and better disjointedness, but it's not so great for reactions, because it's a fair bit slower on start-up. It will be safer on shield, generally, and is much more effective at starting combos, so if you have a good read on your opponent's poke preferences, you can throw this out to stuff them.
Between the two, dsmash is a little bit more likely to shield poke, but it's a risk because the move is much more unsafe on block.
Dthrow -> dtilt is a tech trap on spacies at low percents. If you hear a click when you hit the dtilt, your opponent can't tech when they hit the ground next.
There's probably a lot more, but it's late and I'm not thinking of them readily.
Dtilt is more useful as a way to preempt a lot of bad pokes, especially short-hop jump-ins, because of its rather large hit-box and better disjointedness, but it's not so great for reactions, because it's a fair bit slower on start-up. It will be safer on shield, generally, and is much more effective at starting combos, so if you have a good read on your opponent's poke preferences, you can throw this out to stuff them.
Between the two, dsmash is a little bit more likely to shield poke, but it's a risk because the move is much more unsafe on block.
Dthrow -> dtilt is a tech trap on spacies at low percents. If you hear a click when you hit the dtilt, your opponent can't tech when they hit the ground next.
There's probably a lot more, but it's late and I'm not thinking of them readily.
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Dude, I told you a million times now the tag isn't KLit anymore so I fixed your post for youAs ChivalRuse suggested, dsmash is best used when you have a narrow window for whiff punishing, especially when your back is to the edge, as it will often set up for edgeguards. Despite Litt's objections, there are also places where you can force yourself into range of a CC dsmash by mixing up your spacing and conditioning your opponent to use options that CC dsmash beats. But you must be mindful in these situations, nonetheless; he does have a point that many opponents recognize the strength of CC dsmash, and will have kits to use that strength against you.
Dtilt is more useful as a way to preempt a lot of bad pokes, especially short-hop jump-ins, because of its rather large hit-box and better disjointedness, but it's not so great for reactions, because it's a fair bit slower on start-up. It will be safer on shield, generally, and is much more effective at starting combos, so if you have a good read on your opponent's poke preferences, you can throw this out to stuff them.
Between the two, dsmash is a little bit more likely to shield poke, but it's a risk because the move is much more unsafe on block.
Dthrow -> dtilt is a tech trap on spacies at low percents. If you hear a click when you hit the dtilt, your opponent can't tech when they hit the ground next.
There's probably a lot more, but it's late and I'm not thinking of them readily.
My name is PoopBag
According to the Samus frame data thread, both Dtilt and the first hit of dsmash come out frame 6.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I'm not flip flopping. I'm applying different rules to different matchups. Crouch cancelling is ineffective vs Puff, but it has it's uses vs a grounded Sheik. Particularly, dash -> crouch is good vs to bait out a tilt or a weak/rising aerial. You can also sparingly do stuff like shield grab, ASDI down on Sheik's jabs which will counterhit you, and dsmash. You just have to beware of her adapting to this by doing later aerials on your shield and then immediately shorthopping again or rolling behind you.
Thank you for fixing that error on my part, I was just so used to the other tag! My badDude, I told you a million times now the tag isn't KLit anymore so I fixed your post for you
That feels so wrong, but yeah, you're right. Don't listen to me, OP.
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No problem dude, it happensThank you for fixing that error on my part, I was just so used to the other tag! My bad
That feels so wrong, but yeah, you're right. Don't listen to me, OP.
Most of the stuff in here is reasonable, but keep in mind that both dsmash and dtilt are massively horrible on shield and should be oos punishable by basically every character in the game. So statements like "Dtilt is generally safer on shield", while technically true, are misleading because neither dsmash nor dtilt is remotely safe on shield.